Mini 999 - Isolated Mafia (Game Over)

[My Milked Eek]

I said "a few". 24+ is also "a few".

Let's see...
michel is spewing bullshit all over this thread and AGar is happy with joining him in doing so. You two should stop bogging down this thread with theory talk/discussions over "made up scumtells and the rvs" and start playing. I was going to ask some questions, but I don't think they're necessary as I got a few town vibes from both players throughout the argument and they [questions] weren't that relevant to begin with or already answered in the thread.

Everyone else is either not posting anything relevant (AWA and others) or not posting at all (myself and others).

Also, I found some scum. I know, awesome wrapped in a can: Screl and Davidparker. Have fun lynching them.

Vote: Davidparker

.


Oh right,
To prevent the "why" question:
Some of their interactions ping my gut.
And to prevent the follow-up "what interactions" question:
Read for yourself, lazy ass.

[chauchaudotcom]

Excessive votecounts are excessive.

Votecount:

It takes seven to lynch!

Voting

AGar (1): MichelSableheart
AWA (1): TheButtonmen
DavidParker (1): My Milked Eek
Idiotking (1): remussaidow

MichelSableheart (2): Copper, AGar

screl1 (1): DavidParker
TheButtonmen (1): AWA

Not Voting

Merlin, screl1, Guthrie, IdiotKing

Deadline is in

17

days. July 16, 2010 at 10:00pm PST.

Merlin has been prodded

[MichelSableheart]

So now you're backpedalling. So was he scum, or did he have a 28% chance of being scum?

There's no backpedalling whatsoever. I have always believed MME was only slightly more likely scum then the rest of the players, as evident from the use of "best lead" and "slight increase" in this post, and the fact that I am continually comparing my vote to a random vote. There are only two posts where I use stronger language. The first is the post where I originally vote MME, which was intentionally written rather provocative because that's more likely to draw reactions. The other is the post you quoted, which was a direct response to your post, and which therefore used exactly the words you used, even when "MME is more likely scum" would have been more accurate.

---

Time to start playing. Short analysis on everyone:

Me: MichelSableheart

Inactives/potential lurkers/not enough info to form an opinion: Copper, Guthrie, Merlin, My Milked Eek, IdiotKing, remussaidow

AGar - highly argumentive, provocative playstyle. Has a tendency to misrepresent the arguments he is attacking, though part of that may be caused by me missing his exact meaning. I don't have an immediate reason to assume a scum motivation though.

Unvote

AWA - Unvoting to get AGar to stop pressuring him? His suspicion on AGar also feels slightly of. I've seen enough players argue in favour of truly random voting to believe in the accusation AWA is making.

DavidParker - Some simple vote hopping, without much reasoning or attempts to get discussion started. Not very impressed by him.

screl1 - Seems to be suspicious of everyone who posts content, and noone who doesn't. His behaviour strongly encourages lurking and discourages giving opinions. Also immediately withdraws his opinions when AGar questions them.

TheButtonmen - Raised some good points, slight town read. Would like to hear actual arguments when he believes he has found scum, though.

---

@MME: I can see how David and Screll are individually scummy, but there are virtually no interactions between them. Really not seeing where your gut read comes from.

[AGar]

@MME: I can see how David and Screll are individually scummy, but there are virtually no interactions between them. Really not seeing where your gut read comes from.

I think I do:

DavidParker

He voted for Agar on a OMGUS vote. Analysis of action: rv which is a common occurrence at the beginning of a game.

3 FOSs??? who are you trying to impress??

VOTE: screl

I think he's seeing a subtle attempt at distancing here by DP, while screl is almost buddying up to him by trying to clear his OMGUS as a random vote. It's definitely not a normal interaction.

[AGar]

Also, per MME's request, I'll stop with the spewing MD stuff.

Vote no longer necessary.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Screl

[DavidParker]

Oops, I didn't even realize my vote was an OMGUS. (I guess making it not one, since I was generally under the impression that screl's long post seemed scummy)

He comes in and posts one analytical post basically condemning anyone, and just FoS's everyone.. Seems to be trying a bit too hard to come off as town-aligned, when someone town-aligned would only have a few suspects. And yeah, not impressed by his random vote.

[TheButtonmen]

Ugh.

We have AWA unvoting when pressured and David Parker concerned about wether his vote looked like OMGUS.

The problem here is I only have one vote.

The hypocrisy between David attacking Screl for trying to hard appear town and David worrying about his vote looking like OMGUS though wins out in the end.

Unvote; Vote: David.

[DavidParker]

Lol, I wasn't worrying just pointing out I didn't realize it was one before people attacked me for it :p

[TheButtonmen]

Now he's worried about my vote for him.

Excellent.

Let's lynch him.

[DavidParker]

I'm more worried about your proposed tunneling of a single player when there's more meaningful discussion that can be had.

[TheButtonmen]

Cool story, bro.

[Copper]

After skimming the long walls that Michel and Agar wrote, I've come to the conclusion that they are by-and-large worthless. If either of you think there is a legitimate point for the game at hand buried in all of that noise, feel free to illuminate it, but I suspect that the lot of it is just mis-aimed MD fodder and not relevant to us.

AWA seems a little too focused on logic as the underpinning of the game. While it can be useful in small doses and is very useful in certain endgames, mafia is much more of a game of psychology than logic. This isn't a scumtell on your part, but continued focus on 'people who make fallacious arguments are scum' and 'people who discourage utilization of logic are obviously scum' aren't going to get you all that far. Focus on intentions and interactions.

I dislike this post of AGar's:

Also, per MME's request, I'll stop with the spewing MD stuff.

Vote no longer necessary.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Screl

Scum like nothing better than to muddy the waters and confuse the town. Not every firebrand is scum, of course, seeing as there is almost always a townie somewhere in the argument and all people can get angry from time to time. But when people get into these sorts of arguments it's usually because they got carried away without thinking. The fact that you feel your vote is no longer necessary once you have stopped arguing theory seems to imply that you never really thought Michel was scum, and you were simply trolling for an argument that had the effect of making the game thread harder to read.

Unvote, Vote: AGar

[TheButtonmen]

Copper I'm assuming you would rather not share who the heads are?

[AGar]

After skimming the long walls that Michel and Agar wrote, I've come to the conclusion that they are by-and-large worthless. If either of you think there is a legitimate point for the game at hand buried in all of that noise, feel free to illuminate it, but I suspect that the lot of it is just mis-aimed MD fodder and not relevant to us.

AWA seems a little too focused on logic as the underpinning of the game. While it can be useful in small doses and is very useful in certain endgames, mafia is much more of a game of psychology than logic. This isn't a scumtell on your part, but continued focus on 'people who make fallacious arguments are scum' and 'people who discourage utilization of logic are obviously scum' aren't going to get you all that far. Focus on intentions and interactions.

I dislike this post of AGar's:

Also, per MME's request, I'll stop with the spewing MD stuff.

Vote no longer necessary.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Screl

Scum like nothing better than to muddy the waters and confuse the town. Not every firebrand is scum, of course, seeing as there is almost always a townie somewhere in the argument and all people can get angry from time to time. But when people get into these sorts of arguments it's usually because they got carried away without thinking. The fact that you feel your vote is no longer necessary once you have stopped arguing theory seems to imply that you never really thought Michel was scum, and you were simply trolling for an argument that had the effect of making the game thread harder to read.

Unvote, Vote: AGar

I got caught up in the argument and voted out of the fact that I had believed that Michel's theory was scummy, and ended up spewing MD discussion back and forth, but I had felt at the time it was game related. Several people have pointed out that our discussion was better served for MD, and I realize that I was likely grasping at straws at the time rather than likely pinpointing scum. I did feel that Michel was scum at one time, but I was also furiously engaged in the argument similarly, so my vision was clouded. I wasn't simply trolling for an argument, and that MD thread will likely re-surface in MD post-game.

[DavidParker]

MD = ?

[AGar]

Mafia Discussion.

[MichelSableheart]

Copper's last post is pretty good. However, I don't really agree with their conclusion on AGar. Even if AGar never really believed me to be scum, his reaction was still fine to get discussion started. Also, the moment you stop the debate is usually the moment you also stop to rethink your opinions, trying to look at things less biased. It seems a very logical moment to switch votes to me. And finally, our argument reminds me of a similar discussion I had with SeerPenguin on pages 2-4 of Mozart's Mafia. AGar's behaviour seems slightly more likely to come from town to me, also because I doubt scum would want to be the focus of attention like that early in the game.

[AGar]

I want to post right now... I have thoughts semi-formulating in my head. But my brain is fried right now from work... So I'm going to post later.

I would love to see more activity from DP (actual input in the game), Remu, IK, Merlin, Guthrie and more of what Copper has put forth.

Need... sleep... ugh...

[DavidParker]

Alright here's my thoughts:

AgaR vs Michel : Well, this whole (useless) argument did give me a fairly good town vibe from both. They were obviously the center of attention for a while, and yes, (wifom aside), that is somewhat uncharacteristic of scum. If someone told me either of these two was scum, I would say michel who seemed to overreact and backpeddle at times in this discussion.

Copper: Keep it coming! very constructive post. +Town points for that at least.

AWA: Jumps on TBM for early bandwagoning, when he wasn't being serious and early bandwagons can be useful for getting discussion started and revealing some good information. Not to mention his explanation of his vote as an "emphasis more than a threat" (ie he voted for him beacuse he didn't like his playstyle rather than he thought he was scummy?)

Screl: Comes in and throws 3 FoS's in a post analyzing the few posters.. Two of those are at AgaR and Michel who had been the center of attention. Seemed very unnecessary as these two were already under focus by everyone, just a redundant FoS that seems like someone trying to get scum tell.

TBM: Well, not a fan of you stating opinion as fact, but that just seems to be how you play.

Rest haven't posted enough to really comment on, unless I'm missing someone.

[AGar]

Ok back, got a solid 5 hours of sleep. Brain is no longer mush (for now).

@DavidParker - I like that post, now just to keep the activity up.

There's been a lot of lurking in this game, which drives me insane. But I really noted how Screl came in in the middle of mine and MS's arguments, dropped his thoughts, threw out a FoS on anyone who had been remotely active, and then disappeared.

Also would like to see more MME, didn't mention that in my post.

[DavidParker]

oh wow, that's meant to say
Edit:

crel: Comes in and throws 3 FoS's in a post analyzing the few posters.. Two of those are at AgaR and Michel who had been the center of attention. Seemed very unnecessary as these two were already under focus by everyone, just a redundant FoS that seems like someone trying to get

town points

, a possible scum tell.

[MichelSableheart]

@DP: overreact, sure, but backpaddle?

It's difficult to see the difference between lurking and inactivity. Merlin is simply inactive and will probably be replaced. I wouldn't be surprised if guthrie and IdiotKing got replaced for inactivity before the day is over too. Copper, MME, remus and screll showed willingness to produce content, but aren't posting nearly as often as I would like to see. If there are scum who are trying to stay under the radar by intentionally not posting as often, it's one of those four. All of them have produced content, however. At the moment, I see no reasons to assume that anyone is intentionally lurking.

I probably won't have time to make a post tomorrow.

[screl1]

@MME - You claim that I am scum, anything to back up your argument with or are you just blabbing?

@Michel - When did I withdraw my opinion of AGar? He asked a question and I responded with direct quotations from him.

@AGar - I did say that David's first vote was random, I also said that Copper, and Rems votes were random. Does this mean that all of them are scummy with me? Also I leave for 1 day and that makes me inactive therefore scum? I think you better check this thread because there are a number of others who are less active than myself.

On a side note this is my first game, after reading the wiki page I thought it was a good thing to give an FOS if you were not sure that a person was scum... looks like that page needs to read "give out an FOS and get labeled as scum"

[AGar]

@AGar - I did say that David's first vote was random, I also said that Copper, and Rems votes were random. Does this mean that all of them are scummy with me? Also I leave for 1 day and that makes me inactive therefore scum? I think you better check this thread because there are a number of others who are less active than myself.

For the first part, yes you did say Copper and Rems were random as well. But you didn't bring up OMGUS with their votes, you did with DP, and it seems like you're moving to buddy up to him. For the second part, I didn't say you lurked. I said you conveniently put in 3 FoSes in the midst of a massive heavy posting spree by myself and MS, where they could easily potentially slide by unnoticed or underrecognized. I also said I wanted to see more of other players in a post prior to that.

[screl1]

@AGar - I did say that David's first vote was random, I also said that Copper, and Rems votes were random. Does this mean that all of them are scummy with me? Also I leave for 1 day and that makes me inactive therefore scum? I think you better check this thread because there are a number of others who are less active than myself.

For the first part, yes you did say Copper and Rems were random as well. But you didn't bring up OMGUS with their votes, you did with DP, and it seems like you're moving to buddy up to him. For the second part, I didn't say you lurked. I said you conveniently put in 3 FoSes in the midst of a massive heavy posting spree by myself and MS, where they could easily potentially slide by unnoticed or underrecognized. I also said I wanted to see more of other players in a post prior to that.

Agar – Are you serious? As difficult as it might be, I am going to try and break it down so that you can understand. DAVID’S VOTE WAS THE ONLY OMGUS VOTE. If I said the other ones were then that would be a lie.

VOTE: Agar

Either you are too stupid to figure out that this was the only OMGUS vote, or you are trying to project your scum on me. Either way that is bad for town.

I don’t care if you are in the middle of a posting spree, I will post where I please, if you decide to ignore it and let it go by unnoticed then that is your fault. Town wants people who pay attention to everything and not just the big posts between two people.