Newbie 960 - Game Over

[Sotty7]

Nom de Plume is probably town. There is no reason for him to defend Andrew if he is scum and Andrew is scum - Andrew was setting himself up to be an easy lynch target and Nom de Plume, if scum, should have started handing him some more rope. Thus, I feel as if Nom is likely town. (Note: I wrote this before I got to the point that Locke Lamora replaced NDP. Same stuff applies.)

Hi.

I also defended Andrew, what do you make of that? In fact, I have defended him harder and more often than Nom did, why don't I get a town read for that?

Sotty's accusations against Equinox ring hollow to me. He attacks the most insightful scum-hunter in the thread for...not scumhunting? I simply can't understand where he's coming from. Wolframnhart was a town read, but that was likely because Wolf is a very good player as scum.

How can Wolf be a town read for you, he barely posted. Please display where Equinox has shown “insightful scum hunting” in this thread because I certainly haven't seen it. In fact, she said

her self

that she spent nearly all of day one fence sitting. Why are you buddying to her like this? You guys seem to have a little history in past games, I am getting the feeling that you are trying to get her to unvote you.

Equinox could be scum, but I'm leaning towards town. Equinox is one of those players who is good in either role, so it's difficult for me to get a good read on him.

Wow. Wishy washy much? Also more buddying that looks more like scum/town at least to my gut.

“Equinox could be scum. Equinox could be town. Equinox is a great player!”

Why is Equinox a town read for you? Why could she be scum?

Yes, this is a rather piecemeal case. I feel that it's a much weaker case than the one against Sotty. However, I do feel that there is some credibility to it.

I must have missed the part where you made a case on me. Your case on IAI looks pretty weak on the surface, but you admit that. I am looking forward to an actual case on me.

= = = = = =

Neto's opening post is awful and really it doesn't display knowledge of even having read the game beyond a quick skim. I would like to see reasons for his opinions rather than just throwing around his opinion as if it is gospel.

Once Locke has caught up and posted (happy birthday!) I am putting Neto at lynch -1.

[andrew94]

Nom de Plume is probably town. There is no reason for him to defend Andrew if he is scum and Andrew is scum - Andrew was setting himself up to be an easy lynch target and Nom de Plume, if scum, should have started handing him some more rope. Thus, I feel as if Nom is likely town. (Note: I wrote this before I got to the point that Locke Lamora replaced NDP. Same stuff applies.)

Hi.

I also defended Andrew, what do you make of that? In fact, I have defended him harder and more often than Nom did, why don't I get a town read for that?

YEA well HE GOT REPLACED [sarcasm]

[andrew94]

equinox ,skill/netopalis

Why Skill006/Netopalis?

didnt netopalis replace skill?

Yes, but that's not what I asked. Why did you suspect Skill006?

Mod: Requesting second prod or replacement of ToG. He has been inactive since Wednesday.

cos he afked, then ask replace also afk when i claimed. and thats about it

[Netopalis]

Sotty: You don't get a town read because I find you scummy for other reasons. You don't have to have a huge number of posts to get a town read on anybody. Equinox's play is fairly evident throughout the game, but I'll post a few quotes following this post. Equinox is a town read because I have no reason to suspect him, but that doesn't clear him either. A full case will also follow this post.

[Netopalis]

I swore to myself to not write walls again, but here I am, writing more. I will try to keep this short.

First, I am going to address NomDePlume's response to my case against him.

This was in newbie #924. I read Donny as town in that game (I was town) and Andrew immediately struck me as very similar in this one. The scum in that game, TaylorSwift, did precisely this: "scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential". Wolf (and IAI) was in that game and he was in this one at this point so blatantly performing this "trick" were I scum would have been stupid.

TaylorSwift was accused toward the end of Newbie 924 of being "too accurate." Scum do defend scummy townies to earn town credential, and it worked with TaylorSwift for most of the game until a townie pointed out that his reads were a bit

too

correct. The main reason I dismissed my case against NDP was the player list in that game. I'd read that game before out of curiosity, but I'd never paid much attention to the players who were in it; when I read through NDP's defenses of andrew94 and Equinox, it somehow made me remember this particular game, but I didn't remember which game it was until NDP conveniently pointed it out.

It is as NDP says: It would be quite foolhardy to attempt this in a game where Newbie 924 players would spot it. In the winding WIFOMy mess of my mind, however, I think TaylorSwift's accuracy was unintentional, and if NDP is scum, he might be doing it unintentionally as well. Nevertheless, this meta is an anti-scum tell, so I'm off NDP at the moment.

What more do you think I should be doing to get them to move on? I wasn't waiting for the town to walk themselves to another target I was pointing one out and questioning another.

I will concede that you were probably the first to point out that andrew94's inconsistency was not that scummy, but the reason I made that point against you was this post where you sort of just nodded and then... nothing. It seemed to me as though you didn't want to lead the town off andrew94 at that point; you did attempt, in that post where you questioned us about our thoughts regarding the inconsistency, but you didn't try again. Just didn't seem proactive to me. (Haha, there's me being a hypocrite again!)

Please show me where I have followed someone else.

In this post where you vote Ren, you followed ToG. Reading you in isolation, though, I see you already had a case against Ren by this point, so you didn't actually follow ToG; you merely used his case to add to your own.

VERDICT

: Reading NDP in isolation and in relation to his rebuttal makes it clearer that I had a weaker case on him than I thought. NDP drops down from IGMEOY to null. (Null because you don't seem to be as active as the others... might be RL related as you say, but I can't ignore Sotty7's assertion that you only post when something addresses you.)

Second, I am going to answer ToG's request for a case against mb53.

In this post, mb53 is annoyed that I ruined his RVS pressure vote, but he never actually

questions

me about it. As I've said before, I find what I did pretty scummy in hindsight; I might have stopped the mini-wagon on NDP because I didn't want my newbie scum buddy to fall for it. It's possible that this possibility never actually occurred to anyone, but it's funny that mb53 didn't pressure me further about that when he was quite willing to pressure NDP over a harmless question.

This vote-hopping to Titiboo is a tad weird. IIRC, Titiboo was flaking at that point; no amount of pressure voting would have changed that. Not to mention mb53 is riding on NDP's case.

Grand total of two things. Impressive. v_v

VERDICT

: mb53 warrants an IGMEOY on his slot. However, ToG appears to be doing really well.

All right, since the isolation reading feature is back, time to do some of that tonight. It probably won't change the situation against me any, but I'm hoping this will provide some useful information for you guys tomorrow.

Here's a good post by Equinox showing some decent scumhunting techniques. It uses clear language, solid logic and makes me push Equinox more into the town box. I could find some more, but really, I don't feel like I need to go through and pick out every single good post by him.

[Netopalis]

I advocate a policy lynch on andrew right now. He makes little or no sense, sounds very scummy, and is very anti-town even if he is not scum.

No. Newbie games are not the place for policy lynches. Either you think he is scummy so you vote for him, or you spend time explaining to him how things work to help him be more clear. These are games were people come to learn, policy lynching goes against that.

You also shouldn't link ongoing games, even if you are dead in them.

If we do find a better reason for a lynch, for instance if you find a good case against me, then definitely, go for that one.

I am only advocating a policy lynch right now because andrew is playing pretty anti-town. Whether that means he is scum or not is matter for discussion.

That was a very... Strange thing to say. Left me scratching my head. However your view on Ren bussing Andrew was actually pretty good and I never thought about it that way. Of course, it is waaaaay too early to be talking about partners and bussing, but something to think about if either flips scum later.

Why didn't you move your vote at this point?

Remember Sotty's first statement for a bit later. In the meantime, let's look at the second one - I find it odd that he's questioning the bolded statement. I'm not really sure why other than to provoke Memnon, a player who is known to say scummy things when pressured.

@I Am Innocent & Sotty7

I gave up the case on andrew a while ago, I just didn't formally state said event. Also I haven't taken my vote off him yet cuz there is nowhere to move it yet.

I am having a hard time believing this. Looking at your ISO outside of your scum pairing post, there is little to suggest that you are giving up on Andrew. If this really is the case, why are you giving up? Also, who are your new suspects?

= = = = =

Why not post thoughts on the players that are here and worry about the others when they finally post? This sounds like stalling. If you think there is scum among the replacers, who and why? Come on, get your hands dirty already. Sitting back and asking theory questions isn't helping this game move forward at all.

I was thinking of probability when I said I thought scum would be among the replacements. With four replacements needed, chances are there's one mafia among them.

This is weak

I'm stalling because I don't like working with half a game. Lynch me for that if you will, but I think scum would be a bit more eager to push rather than sit back. There are plenty of cases to piggy back right now.

I would like to lynch you actually. Deadline is around the corner and you are happy to stall while dishing out WIFOM. When do you intend to actually scum hunt? I'm going to go ahead and say that your attacks on Andrew and Ren are extremely weak and have me thinking both slots are town.

I'm starting to think andrew94 is a favorite scum wagon. Granted, I'm not sure of my read on him, but it looks like scum would be voting for him, bussing or otherwise. That means I need to take a closer look at Memnon, Ren, and Titiboo.

Where's this 180 coming from?

I'm still in favor of policy lynching if we don't get anything else. andrew94 in LyLo would not be a favorable situation to be in, and scum would never kill him... assuming he's town.

What part of “Newbie games aren't the place for policy lynchesâ€

Also, I have to wonder here why he's so upset over Memnon giving up on going after Andrew. Is it because he thinks that Andrew or Memnon would be an easy lynch? I think so. Also, look at the second half of this with Equinox. Most of it is pretty weak as well - I think that the probability statement is a reaasonable one and I think that it's reasonable to wait on 4 replacements.

No one is asking you to make cases on town reads, but that doesn't mean you can't question them. Plus you talk about the "gray" in that post above, that suggests you don't know what you think of certain players. I find if I am stuck on trying to read a player I will ask them for their read on another player. That can often open up new areas of discussion that weren't around to begin with.

And that's all scum hunting is. Asking questions and perusing avenues of thought and coming to conclusions in the thread. You don't

need

the whole game to be here to do that. I understand it is frustrating when people you want to question aren't about, but there is literally nothing you can do. Sitting back doesn't help you or the town. You need to be proactive.

So while I understand the frustration, I'm still hooked on my scum read of you. I will say you get some town points for not automatically resorting to OMGUSing the wagon on you. But I really don't understand your Memnon vote, you don't explain it very well at all. I also don't understand your back and forthing on Andrew. So take a chill pill and then when you come back, start by trying to explain your thoughts there and actually building a case on Memnon.

If you want to question town reads, then yes, you are asking them to make cases on their town reads, albeit small ones. And yes, you

do

need the whole game here to scumhunt, otherwise you end up letting a possible lurkerscum get away scot-free.

Crazy posting. Equinox, I see you have posted a Memnon case and I don't have the time to look it over right now but I will over the weekend.

now, i find ren extremely sus cos hes just lurking while equionix well.... is just posting a lot of things to defend himself. i strongly suspect ren is scum or

equinox and memnon wolf pair

WOLF PAIR?!

andrew94, please do me a favor and read this post. I don't care if you skip the bottom part, but at least look at the first 6-7 lines.

We're using one of those four setups.

I actually think this is another pointer for AndrewTown. If he was scum he would have gotten a Goon or Mafia roleblocker PM. I'm not going to clear him 100% but this makes me even less interested in his lynch right now.

I'd like to second IAM's request for a deadline extension considering we're looking for replacements still.

If we do find a better reason for a lynch, for instance if you find a good case against me, then definitely, go for that one.

I am only advocating a policy lynch right now because andrew is playing pretty anti-town. Whether that means he is scum or not is matter for discussion.

That was a very... Strange thing to say. Left me scratching my head. However your view on Ren bussing Andrew was actually pretty good and I never thought about it that way. Of course, it is waaaaay too early to be talking about partners and bussing, but something to think about if either flips scum later.

Why didn't you move your vote at this point?

What vote?

You weren't voting at this point. Why didn't you vote for Ren or Andrew after this post?

There is absolutely nothing going on in this game,

so I am going to do something to spark discussion.

Vote: andrew94

For lack of anything else to go on, I am going to push for the policy lynch.

The bold is clearly a lie, since we're on page 6. This post so scummy it hurts my teeth.

Vote: Memnon

Care to explain? I understand, but put it in your own words. Why is it a lie?

If you understand why do you need an explanation?

For clarity, you stated quite strongly that there was nothing to go on. This is a common newbscum thing to say to try and discourage the town or because they can't fake scum hunting yet. It was page six, plenty of stuff has happened at this point, to say otherwise is a lie.

Cuz hes town but hes acting pretty anti-town so he is more of a hindrance to the town than a help. Therefore we policy lynch him. Not that my vote matters a whole lot, as it is still only L-2.

So you are voting for someone you think is town. Not helpful.

No, but there was nothing else to go on at the time. Better to lynch an anti-town than do let the day fizzle out.

What do you think the purpose of a newbie game is?

How likely do you think it was for the game to fizzle out?

Why do you STILL insist there was nothing to go on?

Equinox's reasoning about Ren's age is actually pretty reasonable. That is if Ren really has DID. It would be nice to hear Ren's thoughts but that is very unlikely now.

Okay I'm kinda skimming the rest now so I must be tired. Going to bed and I'll read the rest tomorrow.

You didn't have time to look over the case but you did have time to write up this giant tome? That seems rather disingenuous to me. I also don't think that it's completely out of line to ask someone to explain something that they already understand, since asking for explanation can sometimes clear up some minor inconsistencies. It seems like you're fighting over nothing again and again.

Okay so Equinox's case on Memnon isn't too bad. He certainly is pretty scummy at this point in the game. I do have a question for you though Equinox. Did you do your iso on Memnon before or after you decided to vote him? If after, what made you move your vote there in the first place?

My big problem with Memnon is the policy lynch. He keeps saying over and over that he wants to lynch Andrew for being anti-town. It's almost like he knows that the scummy stuff Andrew is doing isn't because he is scum. I mean, who leaps first to anti-town over scummy in their mind? Scum who know who the person committing the acts aren't on their scum team.

Also a policy lynch is a great way to get rid of a player with as little responsibility as possible. Lets say we lynch Andrew and he flips town. Come tomorrow we're back in here looking at the people who ran him up and they already have an excuse. “Oh I didn't know if he was scum, I voted him on policy, for being anti-townâ€

A policy lynch isn't scummy in and of itself, per se, and I think that the fact that you are continually harping on it is very scummy, since that's an incredibly easy attack. Scum often try to make big deals out of little things, and I keep seeing you do this over and over again.

I'm not sure if I believe Andrew's claim. It came from no where and it could be that he saw what happened with Memnon and how the pressure fell away after the claim and wanted to try it himself. I'd ask for an explanation as to why he claimed, but I doubt I'll get it.

IKD, you seem resigned to your lynch. Claims and cases aside, if you could lynch anyone right now, who would you pick and why?

In other news, this game makes me cry.

EDIT BY WAY OF PREVIEW: Do

you

have an alternative Nom?

Remember back to the first post I quoted? Either you think he's scummy and you vote for him or you clear it up? If Andrew is lying about the claim, he's scum. Why does Sotty, someone who champions voting fast for players you find scummy, not casting a vote right here? It makes little sense. Altogether, Sotty shows that he loves making mountains out of molehills, probably as diversionary tactics.

[Equinox]

I apologize about the wall. Conclusions follow the divider.

Equinox: what did you think of IAI and NDP's L-1 and hammer votes yesterday before you saw the flip? What do you think now?

NomDePlume could have waited a few more hours, as it was doubtful that inHimshallibe went to an early showing of Toy Story 3, but the imkingdavid lynch was on deadline. No comment.

Heh. This is ironic. Anyway...

Incidentally, I got that question from the very game I replaced into. (For everyone else: That game is now a completed game.)

The giant wall of doom: I'm a huge sucker for buddying. It will utterly screw up my reads. Therefore, Netopalis's read of Equinox is an immediate red flag. My performance in 960 is one of my worst, and I know this as

very solid opinion

fact. You can convince me otherwise post-game, but don't try this during a game.

The wall's a fairly big information mine. It's best used after Netopalis's flip, but I have a feeling he's playing the distancing game. This might be the bias I'm currently holding against ToG; however, I feel that scum is more likely to distance himself from his partner at this point than to clear him. (I won't discount his town reads just yet, though.)

Why are you buddying to her like this? You guys seem to have a little history in past games, I am getting the feeling that you are trying to get her to unvote you.

I'm getting the same feeling. He didn't do this in our last game; he waited until the hammer vote before post-game (which turned out not to be the post-game) before saying anything about my gameplay.

It uses clear language, solid logic and makes me push Equinox more into the town box.

1. Clear language. Anyone can do this. Even you. Not a town tell.
2. Solid logic. This one is a bit fuzzier. Logical fallacies is a scum tell... but solid logic is a null tell.
3. I completely retracted my case against NomDePlume a couple of posts after that wall. Why did you cite it?

---

Netopalis building giant quote walls in this manner is rather out-of-character. Strike 1.

Netopalis cited quotes that were only marginally relevant to his cases for Equinox, I Am Innocent, and Sotty7. Strike 2.

Netopalis buddied up to me. Strike 3!

While I'm on this slot, I don't think I ever mentioned my thoughts about Skill006. If I did, well, here they are again. Skill006 put up a reverse lynch list. That was strange. Her suggestion that she'd wait until Day 2 before doing anything with that list made me think that she may have been the real power role and that Memnon was lying. Memnon dying on Night 1 meant that Skill006 had no investigative powers. Therefore, the purpose of her reverse lynch list was now very unclear. Then came the questioning, answers, etc. Possible strike 4.

But one only needs 3 strikes...

Confirm Vote: Netopalis

[Netopalis]

*shrug* I think it was a pretty good response given the amount of information that I had to consume in such a short amount of time. But, apparently you folks disagree. Regardless, Sotty and either ToG or I am Innocent are the scum. Remember that for tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

On second thought, I think I am going to say a few more things. I think that the wagon against me is mainly derived from the fact that I replaced into a slot that's long been inactive. It's a lot easier to just attack me than it is to actually look for the real scum amongst the active players. I understand that. You are, however, wrong. I'm town. I'm not really sure where this case is built from. Buddying with Equniox? Buddying isn't really my style, I just think he cleared this game up nicely. It really wasn't a huge part of my initial post, but I built a case on it at the insistence of Sotty who conveniently comes back with a buddying accusation. Yet another attempt at the easy lynch and forcing a townsperson to say something that will get them lynched. Finally, I can provide some references for giant quote walls if you'd like. This isn't the first time that I've done it. I tend to do it a bit more when I replace in, since I can't provide running commentary as I'd normally like to do.

[Equinox]

I think that the wagon against me is mainly derived from the fact that I replaced into a slot that's long been inactive.

Your wagon consists of I Am Innocent and Equinox, with Sotty7's vote pending. IIRC, none of us voted your slot because of inactivity. I Am Innocent had already reamed Skill006 before she replaced out. Equinox voted Skill006 because of something suspect she said, and the explanation did not warrant an unvote. Sotty7 plans to vote your slot because of your activity.

Buddying with Equniox? Buddying isn't really my style, I just think he cleared this game up nicely.

Your suspects list do not match mine, so I don't know why you think I've cleared this game. You've just admitted that buddying isn't your style; why did you take exception for this game, then?

Finally, I can provide some references for giant quote walls if you'd like.

Town games where you replaced in would be good.

[Equinox]

Netopalis has already answered this question, so I think it's time for me to ask about it.

Netopalis: what's your initial read of Sotty?

Why Sotty7, specifically?

[Locke Lamora]

Ok, just about finished reading through everything, I'll start with the two players I'm thinking about the most and people can go ahead and ask me questions while I get to the rest.

First of all, Equinox is probably the player I got the scummiest vibes from. This statement in particular I kept coming back to:

I found the person being pressured worth pressuring. Got a problem?

I don't think you really believe even half the things you're saying in that post. That's not necessarily scummy, since this is your first game and you might be misreading town, scum, and null tells, but realize that if I think you're purposefully padding a fake case, you're done.

I believe IAI got a bad feel from this at the time too. There's a bit too much threat in this post, which sets off alarm bells for me in a game that's obviously going to have inexperienced players who could be easily intimidated by a post like this. Equinox later acknowledges that this was a little too aggressive, but trying to get ToG to back off this strongly reads like scum to me.

The frequent emotional reactions also concern me. Occasionally I get frustrated townie vibes from them but more often I feel like they're in there to excuse anything that could potentially be construed as scummy. I also think far too much time is spent talking about the Ren age issue, which Equinox couldn't possibly answer definitively anyway so it concerns me that several posts are spent almost exclusively on this topic.

The massive wall post(s) near deadline strike me as incredibly unnecessary and over-the-top. I understand Equinox wants us to see a train of thought, but some of these thoughts are not relevant to her case, they're just things like 'hey, there are a lot of pressure votes!' This paragraph in particular was very strange and I really don't see a pro-town reason for it:

I'm going to point out something that I did in RVS that nobody really questioned. Maybe nobody thought it particularly damning at the time, but in hindsight, I believe it really was a scummy action. I could have been a mafia, overly cautious and fearful that my newbie partner would jump at the opportunity to quick hammer; I could have made this post to stop my partner from doing so. wolframnhart caught my jumpiness and threw out a couple of theory questions; mb53 merely became annoyed. I don't think he skipped the analysis of my action simply because he thought it wasn't scummy.

What is this saying? That wolfram gets town points for paying attention? That mb53 is scummy because he didn't spot that Equinox was being scummy? As far as I can see, Equinox announces that she did something scummy and nobody really spotted it, then draws no clear conclusions from it whatsoever. The tone I got was 'look, I'm so pro-town I'm even pointing out when

I

do scummy things'. Comments like this one also give me the impression that most of this post is for the purpose of appearing to be posting more useful content than there actually is.

Onto Skill/Netopalis:

And I'm getting a bad feeling about all the votes on king d, though I don't know what the case on him is yet...
Yay for useless comments right before deadline! I'm only on page 7, I'll finish the rest tonight (after exams).

So this is truly awful, one of the worst possible comments in the book, offering no analysis and distancing the player from the wagon in case IKD gets lynched and flips town. Skill later claims he liked Ren at the time, although there is no reference to the original post and the implication of the original post is that he thinks the votes are bad, not that he thinks IKD is town. I also find a large inconsistency between Skill claiming that he'd lynch IKD even though he thinks he's town because it'd be good for information, and then Skill claiming on D2 that he can't bring himself to vote for someone who he doesn't think is scummy, even in the face of a no-lynch. That gives me the impression that he just said the first part because he thought it was the pro-town thing to do.

Netopalis makes some assertions that I think go too far; calling NDP town for defending Andrew, for instance. Defending the play of a VI is not worthy of a town-read, in my book. I'd also like to see a couple of specific examples of Equinox's insight, rather than a massive quote wall. I understand not picking out every good post, but I'd rather see a sentence or two which Netopalis thinks is insightful play than a whole post that demonstrates solid logic and clear language. I am confused by the conclusion of his IAI case; he comes up with several good points to back up his assertions that IAI posts meaningless content and tries to lead people into doing something scummy, then he finishes by calling it 'piecemeal' and saying, almost apologetically, that he still feels it has 'some credibility'. This gives me the impression of leaving himself room to back away from the case if required, which gives me slightly scummy vibes.

Equinox: Skill had earlier included Sotty as a second suspect when he placed his first vote. Sotty had earlier suggested Skill as a partner for yourself and was also threatening to vote the Skill slot. Up to the point where I asked the question, neither of them had gone further than that, so I wanted to see if the interaction ever did go further than mid-level suspicion with no votes, which is often a good way for scumbuddies to distance without putting the other in too much danger of getting lynched. Now we know that they're either going for the all-out bus on each other or there's no connection there.

[inHimshallibe]

Day 2 Vote Count - Deadline: Extended 3 days to Saturday, July 17 (11:59 pm CST)

7 alive; 4 to lynch

Netopalis (2) - Equinox, I Am Innocent

Not voting (5) - andrew94, Locke Lamora, Netopalis, Sotty7, ToG

First, I looked at my "fixed" vote count... I'm going to go with "I was drunk" and apologize. >.>
It appears, once again, that we'll need a replacement.

This is a terrifying trend if other Newbie games progress like this.

[Sotty7]

Nom de Plume is probably town. There is no reason for him to defend Andrew if he is scum and Andrew is scum - Andrew was setting himself up to be an easy lynch target and Nom de Plume, if scum, should have started handing him some more rope. Thus, I feel as if Nom is likely town. (Note: I wrote this before I got to the point that Locke Lamora replaced NDP. Same stuff applies.)

Hi.

I also defended Andrew, what do you make of that? In fact, I have defended him harder and more often than Nom did, why don't I get a town read for that?

YEA well HE GOT REPLACED [sarcasm]

*sigh* him being replaced has nothing to do with this point. Please re-read and think about what is said.

= = = = =

Sotty: You don't get a town read because I find you scummy for other reasons. You don't have to have a huge number of posts to get a town read on anybody. Equinox's play is fairly evident throughout the game, but I'll post a few quotes following this post. Equinox is a town read because I have no reason to suspect him, but that doesn't clear him either. A full case will also follow this post.

To give your vote credit you should have made a case before voting. But hey that's just my opinion. Also Wolf made 11 posts, 7 of those posts are FLUFF. I want to know what about Wolf was town to you that I managed to erase. Personally I just think it was something you said to try and dilute your attack on me, to make yourself look reasonable. I would be able to accept it if Wolf wasn't such a non presence in this game when he was here. He was clearly busy. Your town read on him is bullshit, much like your vote on me and case on IAI.

Here's a good post by Equinox showing some decent scumhunting techniques. It uses clear language, solid logic and makes me push Equinox more into the town box. I could find some more, but really, I don't feel like I need to go through and pick out every single good post by him.

Okay, I'm going to ask a serious question here, have you actually read the game from cover to cover? Because this post you quoted is one of Equinox's epic re-reads posts and if you had read the game you would know that I thought these posts of hers were pretty good and that I said it made her look more town than scum. You would also know that she made a big case on Nom with them and then promptly unvoted him after he gave what I believed at the time to be a minimal defense. You think that is townie like?

Also you should also know that my suspicious of Equinox are heavily rooted in day one and her fence sitting. She refused to scum hunt for a couple of pages while we were waiting on replacements. So if you are trying to discredit my suspicions on Equinox by saying she has some “insightful scum hunting” then quote something from early day one where my suspicion on her started. Don't rearrange the time line, it doesn't work that way.

Remember Sotty's first statement for a bit later. In the meantime, let's look at the second one - I find it odd that he's questioning the bolded statement. I'm not really sure why other than to provoke Memnon, a player who is known to say scummy things when pressured.

Never played with Memnon before.

Also, I have to wonder here why he's so upset over Memnon giving up on going after Andrew. Is it because he thinks that Andrew or Memnon would be an easy lynch? I think so. Also, look at the second half of this with Equinox. Most of it is pretty weak as well - I think that the probability statement is a reaasonable one and I think that it's reasonable to wait on 4 replacements.

OR I thought Memnon was taking the easy way out and I wanted him to take stances. I have been against an Andrew lynch pretty much since I came into the game, arguing against it. Explain why I would be “upset” about Memnon's sudden drop of his vote on him?

You think it is reasonable to sit back for several pages and do nothing while we wait for replacements? Come on man, that's just ridiculous. I know you stuck your neck out for Equinox already and have to come up with something to make her look as good as you made her out to be, but we both know you can do better than this.

If you want to question town reads, then yes, you are asking them to make cases on their town reads, albeit small ones.

And yes, you do need the whole game here to scumhunt, otherwise you end up letting a possible lurkerscum get away scot-free.

I questioned my town read on IAI at the start of today. Never made a case on him however.

Also I am confused to the bold. I thought you just said that it was perfectly reasonable to sit back and wait while the game gets replacements and yet you want to tell me we need the

whole

game to scum hunt? Sounds like a contradiction to me. You want it one way to make your epic buddying town read of Equinox to look good and the other to make your vote on me look good.

You didn't have time to look over the case but you did have time to write up this giant tome? That seems rather disingenuous to me. I also don't think that it's completely out of line to ask someone to explain something that they already understand, since asking for explanation can sometimes clear up some minor inconsistencies. It seems like you're fighting over nothing again and again.

That post isn't that big at all. It was taken up by quotes. Also you don't know my time situation, trying to make me look scummy for that is pretty poor. It actually seems like your fighting over nothing again seeing as I did later read and post about Equinox's case. You see I don't just read peoples cases and take them at face value, I read and check their work myself. That takes a lot of time. More crappy attacks on me.

A policy lynch isn't scummy in and of itself, per se, and I think that the fact that you are continually harping on it is very scummy, since that's an incredibly easy attack. Scum often try to make big deals out of little things, and I keep seeing you do this over and over again.

As a seasoned IC are you going to say that newbie games are a place for policy lynches?

I keep bringing it up because a bulk of the town (Memnon, IAI and Equinox off the top of my head) wanted to policy lynch Andrew. I'd rather lynch scummy looking people.

Remember back to the first post I quoted? Either you think he's scummy and you vote for him or you clear it up? If Andrew is lying about the claim, he's scum. Why does Sotty, someone who champions voting fast for players you find scummy, not casting a vote right here? It makes little sense. Altogether, Sotty shows that he loves making mountains out of molehills, probably as diversionary tactics.

I don't understand your point here at all. I was against a policy lynch. Stuff happened. More people pushed a policy lynch. I told them no. More stuff happened. Andrew claimed in a scummy way. I wonder about it while taking into account we have a VI situation here. Me voting Andrew here makes zero sense. Although I'm sure you would have liked it considering he is very likely the doc and then you wouldn't have to waste your time with him.

I think you like to use buzz words to make your cases look better than what they are. Nothing about my play has bee diversionary, I have addressed everything head on, explain my reasoning so people understand.

Vote: Neto

Neto's awful opening play combined with the two different Skill's I saw makes me happy with lynch -1. I see that there is another replacement situation but at this point I am happy keeping lynch -1 active.

[Sotty7]

On second thought, I think I am going to say a few more things. I think that the wagon against me is mainly derived from the fact that I replaced into a slot that's long been inactive.

Nope, try again. Pretty sure the Nom slot Locke replaced into was inactive longer.

I'm not really sure where this case is built from

Equinox stated it pretty well in the post above, abbreviated anyway. It is also littered though out the thread why Skill was scummy.

Yet another attempt at the easy lynch and forcing a townsperson to say something that will get them lynched.

You are not an easy lynch.

= = = = =

I find myself agreeing with Locke's opening post. Who is the scummier of the two for you Locke? I was going to ask what you thought of Neto declaring Equinox “insightful” but you pretty much cover that. Can you see a Neto/Equinox scum team?

[Locke Lamora]

On to the others, starting with Kenman/IAI. Kenman obviously does very little, he takes the easy way by saying he suspects Andrew and comes up with a pretty lame 'I'd like to hear more from the IC' post before he disappears. The main issue I have with IAI him is this:

@ Ren, Memnon, please place a vote somewhere. The longer one waits, the more scummier it seems. Looks like scum waiting to see which wagon they should get on.

I don't get the motivation here. IAI should want Ren and Memnon to vote so he can judge their alignment, not so they stop looking scummy for not voting. Telling them it's going to look scummy if they don't vote doesn't make sense to me unless he's coaching one of them. It would be more helpful to tell them that it's useful for the town if they take stances and create voting patterns. Saying they'll look scummy if they don't vote now suggests that he's not all that interested in whether they actually are scummy.

There are a few fluff posts, which Netopalis pointed out, that don't really offer much to the game. Other than that, I like his reasoning and approach. He seems to be genuinely interested in alignment and thinking about his stances and I feel like he's getting a similar feel from Equinox to me; namely, that every time she does do something pro-town, she swings way back over to scummy with something like a major AtE. I also think that although he has been speculating about the set-up, he's been doing so in a way that is highly relevant to deciding who he wants to lynch, and so I don't really find it scummy. Having re-read it, I also think Netopalis stretches again in the latter section of his post against IAI; he basically suggests that IAI is trying to lead players into doing scummy things, but he doesn't have much evidence of IAI actually doing it. He just assumes that IAI would attack them if they did anything scummy in response, without any evidence that IAI has actually done this.

Andrew; what to say about Andrew? Infuriating, incomprehensible and absolutely insistent on making this game more painful for everyone else. He doesn't appear to have read any of the rules or familiarised himself with how the game is played here, as evidenced by his insistence on calling the scumteam wolves and his defensive reaction to being asked a few questions. His claim was horribly unnecessary and if it's true, managed to negate both of our PRs in one fell swoop. Reads like a VI pretty much all the way through the game so if he's putting it on, it's a fantastic act.

mb53/ToG: MB seems pretty confused by Andrew, which as far as I'm concerned is a null-tell. He picks up on Kenman's weak IC post but that's about the extent of his observations. ToG I generally get quite good vibes from. The language barrier occasionally means he phrases things a bit strangely but on the whole I think he picks up on some nice points, particularly when he's quizzing Equinox about her motivations for the RQS questions. There seems to be genuine interest in Equinox's motivations behind ToG's line of questioning. His strangest post is where he switches his vote to Memnon before he actually seems to have a strong opinion of him, and his theory that Ren is faking DID is also pretty weird, but I don't get a scummy read from either of those posts. His scummiest point is when he states that he now has a town read of Equinox and then votes for her less than 5 hours later without really offering any reason for the U-turn, although the claim situation is obviously at this point. This gives me a slightly scummier read overall because it makes the town read he developed by questioning Equinox seem a little disingenuous. I'd like to hear more about that vote from him but I'm guessing he's not coming back.

Sotty is Sotty, so naturally if she's scum she's playing great. Wolf did very little in his short time in the game and, like several others, he went after Andrew early on for his refusal to answer questions, which is fair enough. As for Sotty, I agree with her on a lot of fronts so far, the constant policy lynch talk on D1 was a bad idea and it was particularly scummy that Memnon had the mentality that Andrew was anti-town and not scummy. Her stances on Equinox I frequently agreed with on my read-through. Having read Netopalis' case and her response, I find she makes a lot more good points than he does and again, I find that he reaches on more than one occasion to pad his case out, much as he did with IAI. This is particularly in evidence with the post Neto calls 'a giant tome'; when I read it, I thought that it was actually mostly quotes and didn't contain much new content from Sotty, so we definitely agree there.

Sotty: I'd say Equinox is scummier for me still because there are repeatedly scummy posts over the course of the game. That said, the more I read Neto's cases, the more I think he's reaching in several places for scumtells that just aren't there, so he's a close second. I could definitely see a scumteam there; Equinox's D2-starting vote on Skill and subsequent 'That looks better' response to Skill's list of suspects is naturally jumping out at me when I consider that. What do you think of that possibility?

I'll go ahead and:

Vote: Equinox

I'd particularly like to know why you felt the need to include so much case-irrelevant information in those wall posts I mentioned, and if you could explain what you were getting at by pointing out your own scummy behaviour, that'd be good too.

[Equinox]

I'd particularly like to know why you felt the need to include so much case-irrelevant information in those wall posts I mentioned, and if you could explain what you were getting at by pointing out your own scummy behaviour, that'd be good too.

I said what I meant, and I meant what I said: I was writing out my train of thought. No intent to pad cases. I also have no ulterior motive behind pointing out my own scummy behavior; I just do it.

>_>;

Equinox's D2-starting vote on Skill and subsequent 'That looks better' response to Skill's list of suspects is naturally jumping out at me when I consider that.

I realize that looks like coaching to you, but two things:

1. Skill006 had not previously posted suspects. Therefore, when she did, her slot looked slightly better, hence the "That looks better" comment.
2. If I were scum, I wouldn't need to coach Skill006. (Yay for WIFOM.)

[Locke Lamora]

You said you were putting it up so you don't get accused of going 'where the wind blows', which I assume means following other players. If that's what it means, does this concern you? How does posting things like that comment about pressure votes achieve that goal? As for your own scummy behaviour, there was literally no point other than you thought 'oh, it's funny no-one spotted how scummy I was, I think I'll tell everyone!' That's it? You really didn't get anything out of how other players reacted?

As for the coaching, it's a possibility I'm considering. I won't consider it any further unless one of you flips scum.

[Netopalis]

My point with the activity is that it's more a subconscious thing, not a conscious one.

I think that I may have been a bit unclear. I meant that I thought that Equinox was being a lot more clear than most other players. I disagree with some of the conclusions, but I feel that the explanations are fairly decent.

Here's a post that I made using the quote walls and an unsure case which turned out to be right and ended up winning us the game:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2343340

Most of my other games where I've replaced in as town are either ongoing or much older. I can still provide links if you want to some pre-2010 ones that are archived, but I think that game shows well enough what I do when I replace in.

The IAI case isn't up to my normal standards, but it is fairly cohesive. The point of my statement regarding that is that IAI is my

second

choice to lynch, since I feel less strongly about it than I do about Sotty.

Wolframnhart didn't post much, I'll give you that. But, I think that his exchange regarding the L-2 situation is a good one for the start of the game. It's an extremely light read, but it is there.

I have read the whole game, although I'll admit that it was a quick read. I was a bit overextended and replaced into this slot since it looked like it was getting desperate. The newbie queue is extremely overtaxed for replacements right now, especially in experienced players, so I decided to take on an extra game that I wouldn't have under other situations. I also don't feel that NDP's defense was "minimal" as you say. Further, Sotty, if you agree that Equinox's posts were good at that point in the game, why are you attacking me for saying that he is clear and logical? You felt the same way!


Here's my take on the Memnon/Andrew situation. Sotty wanted to defend Andrew insofar as he could say that he defended him, but he was really hoping for a lynch. Andrew then flips town and Sotty comes out smelling like roses - after all, he did go against the lynch. That's the only thing I can think of to explain how he would bait Andrew but later defend him. Sorry if that wasn't clear from my earlier posts.

Given that half the game was out, yes, I do feel that's reasonable. Let's say you proceed and the two scum are among that group of four. You develop stronger scum reads on the ones that are around while the other 4 get away scot free. It would likely lead to a game loss.

With the whole game comment, I meant that we needed all players in the game present to scumhunt and you know that, Sotty. That was a direct response to a question you posed about us waiting around for replacements. Your taking that quote out of context to make it look like I was referring to time is extremely scummy.

I'm not sure what Sotty is getting at with the "That post isn't that big at all..." paragraph. No, I don't know how much or little time you have to contribute.

I won't say that policy lynches in newbie games is a

good

thing, but I won't say that it's a bad one either. I do find continually harping on it to be scummy.

I didn't want Sotty to vote for Andrew, I was wondering how he could believe that the Doc claim was fake and still believe that Andrew is town. That seems like a logical inconsistency to me.

In regards to Locke Lamora's point about my case on IAI, no, I don't know if he would have jumped on them had they followed through, but I can't see much else that would explain his behavior.

I'll post another wall of quotes regarding Equinox's play following this, since apparently that's what you folks want.

[Locke Lamora]

I don't want a wall of quotes. I want you to pick one or two things and say 'this is insightful play' so that I can see why you consider Equinox to be the most insightful player in this game.

[I Am Innocent]

@ Ren, Memnon, please place a vote somewhere. The longer one waits, the more scummier it seems. Looks like scum waiting to see which wagon they should get on.

I don't get the motivation here. IAI should want Ren and Memnon to vote so he can judge their alignment, not so they stop looking scummy for not voting. Telling them it's going to look scummy if they don't vote doesn't make sense to me unless he's coaching one of them. It would be more helpful to tell them that it's useful for the town if they take stances and create voting patterns. Saying they'll look scummy if they don't vote now suggests that he's not all that interested in whether they actually are scummy.

"Telling them it's going to look scummy if they don't vote doesn't make sense to me unless he's coaching one of them". Which everyone now should know is not scum coaching scum since both slots are dead and confirmed townie.

In these games, I recognize we are playing with a lot of first timers or relative newbies. I not only play to win, but I try to help the "next generation of players" better understand the game by letting them know why I think what I do as well. In the case quoted above, I 1) let them know that fencesitting is scummy in my mind & 2) why it is scummy ("Looks like scum waiting to see which wagon they should get on").

As for Neto's point where I am trying to get players to say scummy things, I must plead guilty to that. My scumhunting abilities revolve mostly around players stating one thing, and getting them to circle back around it or contradict it. If it is a town who does it, they should be able to honestly express why they did it. I am big on making stances, and having others do as well. If that is scummy, once again I plead guilty.

Equinox stated some of my reasons for going after Skill, in addition to those it was very notable later how differently Skill played from Newbie 950. Sotty read that thread and noticed it as well too. Considering Titiboo and now Neto have not swayed me in a townie direction either, my vote stays on this slot for now.

[Netopalis]

2. If andrew94 has zero experience playing Mafia, definitely. Even if he did all the reading on game play, theory, and strategies, I believe there are things that are learned only by experience, like the wagon I just ruined.

If andrew94 has played on a different site, though, it depends on that site's meta; if it's drastically different, well, his scum hunting tactics would be different -- which would bring new things to the table -- but it could easily be misinterpreted or not quite useful here.

Here we have a good psychological analysis of Andrew's different possibilities which takes into account other sites' metas, which was an excellent point that had not been thoroughly explored at that time (and which turned out to be correct).

I'm currently not on the andrew94 bandwagon, but I'm leaning scum because andrew94 has stated he fears getting owned, presumably because of expectations given his experience. It could be as you say, that he is town and just nervous that we'd hold him up to some higher standard. On the other hand, town players have no reason to fear getting knocked over senseless and then lynched; only scum need fear that, though many newbie town players hold self-preservation as a priority. Hmm...

I also fear andrew94 may have as-yet-unknown motivation to lie, given all the philosophical spiel about how everyone lies and it's near impossible to tell lies and truths apart. I will need to see further posts from him before I can make any further judgments, though.

Although I feel that Andrew is town, I can definitely respect this analysis. Once again, Equinox proves to be extremely insightful regarding Andrew's possible hidden motivations to lie, as we see several pages later.

It just seemed odd to me...you really thought he was scum, and then that one piece of meta convinced you otherwise.

And I just notcied that you refer to yourself in the third person. Is that for convinience when people are rereading the thread? (just out of curiosity)

1. I read that game once while I was bored. Considering I Am Innocent was part of that game, I highly doubt ScumDePlume would pull the gambit of which I was accusing him... unless those two are a scum team, but I'm not considering that possibility at the moment. It's a strong enough piece of meta for me.

2. Convenience.

Equinox didn't have to mention that he had read NDP's previous game that he refers to. He also wouldn't have been expected to read it. Therefore, the fact that he is willing to bring this up and go out on a limb to clear NDP does push him towards town for me.



Here are just a few things from a cursory glance-through to explain the thing I mentioned about Equinox. Has Equinox's play been perfect? Of course not, but none of us are. However, Equinox has been much more clear than just about anybody else. It makes me tend to lean more towards the town for Equinox, but as I said before, it could just be the fact that we think an awful lot alike. Now, can we please move on to something more meaningful?

[Netopalis]

I am Innocent - that's a good method that I use as well - the problem is, I think that your targets were guided by convenience rather than a legitimate belief that the player you were investigating was, in fact, scum.

[I Am Innocent]

2. If andrew94 has zero experience playing Mafia, definitely. Even if he did all the reading on game play, theory, and strategies, I believe there are things that are learned only by experience, like the wagon I just ruined.

If andrew94 has played on a different site, though, it depends on that site's meta; if it's drastically different, well, his scum hunting tactics would be different -- which would bring new things to the table -- but it could easily be misinterpreted or not quite useful here.

Here we have a good psychological analysis of Andrew's different possibilities which takes into account other sites' metas, which was an excellent point that had not been thoroughly explored at that time (and which turned out to be correct).

Scum got to talk before the game. Couldn't this be more of a sign of pre-game communication than a lucky guess?

[I Am Innocent]

I am Innocent - that's a good method that I use as well - the problem is, I think that your targets were guided by convenience rather than a legitimate belief that the player you were investigating was, in fact, scum.

And what makes you think this exactly? Do you think that I have been ignoring some players who have not been making a stance while attacking others?