Open 233: Ninja Mafia Boogaloo - Over!

[StrangerCoug]

@Stranger
With so many VT's in this game and a very unpredictable set up it is kind of obsolete claiming. He could fake claim VT and everyone would be pretty much just as clueless as before at this stage. Given you gave some thought into this setup (I sure hope you did) I'm sure you would have considered this possibility. Isn't it kind of ironic when you are telling him to claim when you pretty much know exactly what he is going to claim?

No, because it is not quite true that I know at all. That would require everybody aligned with the town to be VTs. I think you're also making the false assumption that F11, and therefore this game, has no fakeclaiming potential for scum.

I voted SV because I see him as the scummiest player at the moment.

This is vague. Elaborate.

-I don't know why CC is attacking me so hard about hijacking the question aimed at SC. Even if SC does just say "what he said", it could be interpreted as scummy under certain circumstances. IIRC, I don't think SC himself has actually answered the question.

That's because, as I said, I'm not sure what to make of what he did.

Mafia is a game of evidence. You seem to be the only witness of "scum skim," therefore it is not a viable point. In courts and whatnot, you typically need at least 2 witnesses for any evidence to count.

This is fallacious. That everybody disagrees with you does not mean that you are wrong. If it means anything more than that, it means you have to build your case to get people to rally for your cause.

FoS: Beefster

So I think these arguments that SV is town because the wagon moved fast are pretty silly given that there are only 4 scum in the game, so with 7-8 players on his wagon the majority of those are almost certainly town, BUT I still like SC for scum more than SV, silverbullet is reading town to me right now and SC's vote on him looks more like an excuse to have a serious vote down than reasoning behind silver being scum.

This is not a newbie game; therefore, I expect him to know better than to think he should be ignoring questions most of the time. Willfully ignoring a player is scummy.

[Zajnet]

@Zajnet, interesting. How different would you say your voting AGar for lurking right at the start when you knew he wasn't is from Shattered Viewpoint's unvoting right at the start when he knew he wasn't voting? You seem to have found his action worth voting for but I'd call them pretty similar. Or was it other things about Shattered Viewpoint that you found scummy when you cast your vote?

Mine was obviously a joke, his wasn't as I understand it.

I voted SV because I see him as the scummiest player at the moment.

This is vague. Elaborate.

Gut read + his weird unvote thingy.

[StrangerCoug]

I voted SV because I see him as the scummiest player at the moment.

This is vague. Elaborate.

Gut read + his weird unvote thingy.

"Gut read" and "weird unvote thingy", eh? Look like excuses to me.

Unvote: silverbullet999
Vote: Zajnet

[Papa Zito]

Everyone gets so lost in the moment that they forget to keep track of who wants to kill who. Yes, let's blame the players.

There's a lot of splashing about and cursing and further accusations of foul play. Some of the accusations are pretty wild, most likely caused by the fumes from all that leaked jet fuel. Even the mermaid is giggling.

Fourth Votecount of Day 1

1. Col.Cathart (0):
2. KageLord (1): Zorblag
3. Chronopie (1): curiouskarmadog
4. ConfidAnon (1): AGar
5. Gammagooey (0):
6. AGar (1): Enigma
7. Zajnet (4): smashbro_of_the_SSS, Beefster, ConfidAnon, StrangerCoug
8. Zorblag (0):
9. tumescence (0):
10. Enigma (1): PaltryExcuse
11. StrangerCoug (1): Gammagooey
12. smashbro_of_the_SSS (1): Shattered Viewpoint
13. Beefster (0):
14. Shattered Viewpoint (5): Sotty7, Col.Cathart, silverbullet999, Zajnet, Chronopie
15. Sotty7 (0):
16. PaltryExcuse (0):
17. curiouskarmadog (0):
18. silverbullet999 (0):

Players not voting: KageLord, tumescence

With 18 players alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.
The current wagon leader is

Shattered Viewpoint

at L-5.
Deadline: August 4th @ 11:59PM CST

KageLord and tumescence have been prodded.
Edit: omg I got the sun icon to work huzzah

[Shattered Viewpoint]

So I think these arguments that SV is town because the wagon moved fast are pretty silly given that there are only 4 scum in the game, so with 7-8 players on his wagon the majority of those are almost certainly town, BUT I still like SC for scum more than SV, silverbullet is reading town to me right now and SC's vote on him looks more like an excuse to have a serious vote down than reasoning behind silver being scum.

This is not a newbie game; therefore, I expect him to know better than to think he should be ignoring questions most of the time. Willfully ignoring a player is scummy.

I'm having trouble with this. Who, exactly, do you think is avoiding questions?

[Gammagooey]

So I think these arguments that SV is town because the wagon moved fast are pretty silly given that there are only 4 scum in the game, so with 7-8 players on his wagon the majority of those are almost certainly town, BUT I still like SC for scum more than SV, silverbullet is reading town to me right now and SC's vote on him looks more like an excuse to have a serious vote down than reasoning behind silver being scum.

This is not a newbie game; therefore, I expect him to know better than to think he should be ignoring questions most of the time. Willfully ignoring a player is scummy.

NOPE. In a different situation maybe, but not wanting to answer someone's generic questions because they already answered the same person's generic questions elsewhere is not scum motivation.

[silverbullet999]

These SC... and SV are throwing me off a bit.. can we just be like Shattered or StrangCoug or something?

and also @SC.... i mean Stranger
Is the he I?

[curiouskarmadog]

and shattered, please explain to me why exactly you think skimming is scummy?

I'll do my best. What grade level reading comprehension would you like? (I only ask because I've already explained this here and here. But if you really, really, honestly need me to make it a little more understable for you, I'll try. Do you have a language preference? Can I get you some more coffee while I'm up? Are you comfortable? Can I get you anything else?)

("I have seen it before" doesnt cut it)...

Why not? I've seen the sun rise in the morning; do I need to get a degree in astrophysics to prove to you that it does, and will likely continue to do so?

you have never seen a bored vanilla townie skim or any town for that matter?

I have. I lynch them, too. If you aren't going to actively participate in a game, don't sign up for that game. Simple, really.

What about someone who lacks the time?

What about them? Their personal circumstances are not my problem. Next, should I try to solve homelessness or end world hunger? Just tell me, apparently I'm only here to solve your problems.

Have you ever been scum?

Yes. I'd refer you to my wiki page, but apparently you cannot be bothered to do any original research; rather, you seem content to allow other players to do all your homework for you. That being said, I've been scum in this game, this one, and this one. (The careful reader will be able to find my main account's identity in one of those games. I've been scum many more times there than here.)

Can you please provide examples of scum skimming. (completed games please)

See the above quote about doing your homework. I leave the solution as an exercise for the reader.

no reason to be an asshole, I dont want to look through all of your games, please provide a link that you saw scum skimming, I am trying to establish if you are lying or not...if you refuse to provide the link I will assume you are lying.

well, so you just sort of proven my point, you are saying that skimming is scummy, but you have also seen town do it to...i have seen scum lurk (I am sure all of us have) but I dont see you wanting to lynch lurkers.

the reason I asked if you have been scum, was because you should know that scum USUALLY DONT FUCKING SKIM, the read the thread and stay on top of things....

so quit being a dick and answer the questions

[curiouskarmadog]

edit "theY read the thread and stay on top of things"

[curiouskarmadog]

so i dont get a "I already answered the questions post" let me restate the question you refuse to answer.

1.) please provide the link to the game you saw scum skim. If it is a current game, state it, and I will look for myself...

2.) you have yet to explain why skimming is scummy, you sarcastic posts you quote that you say

"I firmly believe that scum tend to (generally) skim through the thread, and therefore don't give the game the same level of attention that town players do. Therefore, in certain circumstances, I feel that lack of attention can be a scumtell."

"Because I've seen it. Scum drop in from time to time, read the shortest posts, contribute very little that's actually relevant, and once in a while they skate by and don't get lynched. "

if you want to stick to these quotes as your reasoning, (which really boils down to "I have seen it before") you have to supply the game. However, you have just admitted to seeing town do it too, so it really isnt an excuse. You defense of this attack is lacking.

the reason i ask about if you are scum was because I was curious if you did skim...or anyone in your mafia skim...

[Beefster]

Mafia is a game of evidence. You seem to be the only witness of "scum skim," therefore it is not a viable point. In courts and whatnot, you typically need at least 2 witnesses for any evidence to count.

This is fallacious. That everybody disagrees with you does not mean that you are wrong. If it means anything more than that, it means you have to build your case to get people to rally for your cause.

FoS: Beefster

I'm not really seeing how it is fallacious. I never said he was wrong, I just said that his statement wasn't viable. Viable =/= Plausible. Viable in this case means it can legally be used. Plausible just means that it

could

be true. "Scum skims" is plausible, but not viable- as no other witnesses are backing it up. Much like how the flying spaghetti monster is plausible but not viable.

I was explaining out why "I have seen it" isn't a good reason. I suppose I should have made that fact more clear.

[Beefster]

EBWOP: Yes, I may have IMPLIED that he was wrong. But I still left in the possibility that he was right.

[AGar]

I'm amazed at how many people haven't heard of the scum skimming tell... It was one of the first things I was introduced to, just decided it isn't worthwhile. I've finally decided to delve into it and really look at it since more people are focusing on it as the game progresses.

The theory is thus: scum tend to skim because they don't need to read everything because they're just out to pick at things that they can in turn poke and prod at to force more mistakes and slips out of people. They don't need to know every bit of information, just enough to cause problems and divert attention.

I feel the meta has shifted away from the tell, thus rendering it useless, as I feel more and more scum play a meticulous, planned out game, and the site's town meta is shifting towards pore over every claim or soft-claim, so scum need to read more in order to stay alert and make sure nothing is going to slip by and ruin their plans.

A lot of players in this game are generally more experienced players, and thus more likely to use advanced game tactics and strategies beyond the simple bussing and such, so I think that SV's intended application of the tell is an ill-advised move to try and garner reads off of players who are unlikely to succumb to such a strategy and I think SV is coming from a town angle at this point in time.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Paltry Excuse, why do you think scum wouldn't want to bandwagon?
-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Firstly, to cover all bases, scum grouping together early doesn't happen. So, with the amount of people on SV, scum could be on it and bandwagoning. Which makes any scum off it trying to find an excuse to get on it if SV flips town.

But mostly it is due to my first game. I was scum. I pressured the leading wagon without voting it (as I have seen Enigma do at Shattered Viewpoint). But then I didn't join on. I said little in the way of scum hunting and really didn't scum hunt at all until the next day. With the size of this game (18 people, 4 mafia), scum needs to survive a while.
Enigma, to me, hasn't even bothered to check their surroundings, and argues theory still. Participating, but not really looking anywhere. The theory talk is a way of looking active without actually

progressing

. He argues that StrangerCoug is wrong in wanting a claim, that SV is wrong in his reasoning, but doesn't vote either. The hesitance to bandwagon shows a disagreement in theory (and if town perhaps thinking they are BSing), but without the vote, scumminess. Plus that question to StrangerCoug really rankles me, on something I can't place.

Long story short: Newer scum doesn't want to bandwagon in case they group with other scum on a bandwagon, and doesn't want to get caught on 'bandwagoning' like Zajnet is now. Enigma is doing everything Zajnet ISN'T doing without really doing anything. So, I vote and suspect.
[/drunkpost]

[tumescence]

Will read and post.

[KageLord]

I'm sorry to be so late. I didn't even realize that this game had started yet. I suppose I should have kept an eye on it instead of assuming we would get a PM about its start.

Anyway, I have quickly read through the thread now, but I plan to go back and try to find something solid tomorrow (hopefully that post will come tomorrow night or definitely day after). For now, my thoughts:

1. The person I have the most mixed feelings about is SV. At first, I thought the whole thing about him unvoting when he didn't vote in the first place was stupid. But, I was a bit rattled when he claimed he did it on purpose as a trap. I guess I could see someone trying it, but it seems like a pretty stupid trap to me. It could easily be taken the wrong way and used by scum (as it very well may have been in this game). I also don't agree with his scum skimming "tell" thing in general. I think that scum read the thread just as carefully as experienced town players do. It would be so easy for them to slip up and misrep or something like that if they didn't pay attention. However, there still seems to be scumhunting effort from him, even if I don't agree with all of his methods. I would say I'm leaning town on him.

2. To the above Beefster vs. SC thing, I would think that what SC is saying is that just because something doesn't have a "second witness" doesn't mean that it should be disregarded. The person making the point just needs to try harder to make people see it his way. He doesn't seem to be implying that Beefster is saying that the point is actually wrong. In that regard, I would say SC is right about Beefster's comment being fallacious. But, I don't see any malice in it. It could easily be an honest misunderstanding.

Thoughts about possible scum coming soon...

Edit after preview: It seems AGar agrees about SV's "tell".

[Enigma]

That's actually a valid tell AGar, suprised I haven't heard of it yet.

@Paltry
I'm pretty sure I withhold my vote in many games regardless of my alignment. Unless I'm initiating a new lead I see no point in adding to a bandwagon where unless myself/town are prepared to hammer. Especially in a game with 18 people where 10 are needed to vote, I'm not putting down a vote unless I'm convinced it is beneficial. A few votes on selected people can easily be shrugged off in a game this big, I would much prefer to see how people respond to thoughts and discussion with such a long time before the deadline.

[curiouskarmadog]

Agar, thanks for answering the question for SV.

I understand why people might think "skimming" is a scum tell, but I wanted SV to explain why HE thought it was....I am still waiting for him to provide the game(s) that it occured where he claimed he witness in action.

in theory, I think it is a null tell at best. I have seen countless bored players skim(alignment aside). I mean how many times have you missed a particular vote or thought someone was at -2, when they were actually at -3, etc etc....I also see newbies do it, they get excited about playing and sign up for 10 games...they lack the time, so they skim.

I agree with KL's, "I also don't agree with his scum skimming "tell" thing in general. I think that scum read the thread just as carefully as experienced town players do. It would be so easy for them to slip up and misrep or something like that if they didn't pay attention." statement.

I didnt want this to turn into a discussion about game theory, I just wanted SV to explain to me why he felt skimming was worth a vote, he has (I guess)..."he has seen it" (it is a bad explanation, but whatever)...well, now I want him to prove it. I have asked once for a link to a game, and he was a dick about it, throwing out insults, I have asked a second time, to provide the link (in game so we can all check)...and am still waiting...

[curiouskarmadog]

also so they dont get lost, I am still waiting for Zaj to answering my questions for 134 and

chrono to address this,

"Also, anyone who has ever played with me, knows I FUCKING HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY OVER-REACTION is scummy…I think people who use this as an argument for a vote are 8 times out of 10 scum, so ding ding ding, you win the prize for this game….

Explain to me, a.) what the over-reaction was…and b.)why over-reaction is scummy…"

[PaltryExcuse]

That's actually a valid tell AGar, suprised I haven't heard of it yet.

@Paltry
I'm pretty sure I withhold my vote in many games regardless of my alignment. Unless I'm initiating a new lead I see no point in adding to a bandwagon where unless myself/town are prepared to hammer. Especially in a game with 18 people where 10 are needed to vote, I'm not putting down a vote unless I'm convinced it is beneficial. A few votes on selected people can easily be shrugged off in a game this big, I would much prefer to see how people respond to thoughts and discussion with such a long time before the deadline.

If town, there is no progression in this post still; nothing that tells me who you believe is scum. That was my main point against you. The secondary part seems to be you're prepping yourself to vote SV, the biggest wagon, and then you didn't. Giving yourself a reason to vote the biggest wagon to hammer it (or anything like that) without really saying anything with a poor reason is scummy. Who do you suspect? Why aren't you pursuing them? Why are you talking about theory again rather than doing so?

Secondly, on the person by person basis: With this many people, one vote wouldn't hurt unless you were planning to vote SV.

None of those questions have been answered, and they are concerning.

[Sotty7]

As far as the whole scum skimming thing, I find it depends on the player. To just say scum are more generally to skim is pretty much BS because I have seen plenty of scum be very invested into games, planning their moves trying to control the town. Have I ever seen skimming scum? Sure. But the whole thing is a null tell because you can argue it either way. Ideally, no one should be skimming but there is logical reasons for both town and scum to being so. Unless you have some epic meta on a player in question the tell is really useless. Now if you want to spin "skimming" into "active lurking" then you might have more of a point.

I'm liking Paltry's 163 post on Enigma. It is a newbie scum tell but can be applied here. I will have to go back and read and see the context. Paltry, are you pushing on Enigma because you think Shattered is town?

I'm

pretty sure

I withhold my vote in many games regardless of my alignment.

Do you with hold your vote or not?

[ConfidAnon]

As far as the whole scum skimming thing, I find it depends on the player. To just say scum are more generally to skim is pretty much BS because I have seen plenty of scum be very invested into games, planning their moves trying to control the town. Have I ever seen skimming scum? Sure. But the whole thing is a null tell because you can argue it either way. Ideally, no one should be skimming but there is logical reasons for both town and scum to being so. Unless you have some epic meta on a player in question the tell is really useless. Now if you want to spin "skimming" into "active lurking" then you might have more of a point.

I'm liking Paltry's 163 post on Enigma. It is a newbie scum tell but can be applied here. I will have to go back and read and see the context. Paltry, are you pushing on Enigma because you think Shattered is town?

I'm

pretty sure

I withhold my vote in many games regardless of my alignment.

Do you with hold your vote or not?

Damn it Sotty . . . after reading the thread, I wanted to make a post such as yours.

But you already made it.

I agree with Sotty7.

[AGar]

Agar, thanks for answering the question for SV.

I did no such thing. People have been talking about the tell for about 4 pages now. I had ignored it, feeling it was better reserved for MD. But people keep trying to nail SV for it, and honestly, most people haven't heard of it. I pointed out what I knew about it, why I felt it was null and why I felt that SV was coming from a town angle. He may have a completely different perspective, and he obviously does if he feels it's a legitimate tell. So he still has his own answer to the question.

@ConfidAnon - That's all you have to say? How about you start putting some effort into the game?

[ConfidAnon]

@ConfidAnon - That's all you have to say? How about you start putting some effort into the game?

I'm not that great at this game, I'm trying to get better. Walls of text and deep intellectual arguments - not my forte. What I noticed in the thread was summed up in Sotty7's post. So I agreed with it. How am I not putting "effort" into this game when my thoughts have been summed up by someone else's post?

[AGar]

@ConfidAnon - That's all you have to say? How about you start putting some effort into the game?

I'm not that great at this game, I'm trying to get better. Walls of text and deep intellectual arguments - not my forte. What I noticed in the thread was summed up in Sotty7's post. So I agreed with it. How am I not putting "effort" into this game when my thoughts have been summed up by someone else's post?

Because you haven't posted a single thought of your own in this game yet, just opportunistically hopped on bandwagons (one of which, you hopped on because a player was himself being opportunistic) and posted "I agree with X."