New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[AGar]

So I should let you know every time I'm wiping my ass?? Are you serious right now with this crap. The invitational ate my time keeping me away from here. You can't argue that. Should I list everything that distracts me? Clearly you aren’t worried about the last line about the invitational alone being interesting and distracting or you wouldn’t have looked to see if I was in any other ques/games. So your point now that my other games and RL is null…is bullshit.

You've wholly overreacted to the fact that I said you went under after your attempt at a policy lynch went under. My point may have been proven null, but it gathered fruits of its own. Why are you so concerned about one statement. You could've simply brushed it off, said "Nah, I'm pre-occupied. Chill." Instead,you've flipped your lidd.

@Agar what do you think of Wraith's vote on Lowell?

I've commented on this. Read the thread.

@Agar what do you think of Anon?

Anon is interesting, pretty weird player. Needs more content to get a read.

@Agar what do you think of the other players saying Policy lynches D1 are the best time for one. And or would be for a policy lynch.

I think I made it pretty clear.

Could you also say when you think would be the best/most ideal time to lynch a player like Lowell.

When an informative role has targeted him with an alignment, or not at all when he bites a vig-kill. Better solutions for lowell than just policy lynching. Only thing is, scum would need to policy him, as a false cop claim with a guilty would out them and a NK would be wasted by scum.

[AGar]

Feck, this didn't post with the rest.

I meant to say in the top part with the valuing of meta. That you just witnessed a game, yes get mith-ended, that had me as a townie pushing an early policy lynch. Just cause you couldn't grasp my points or see eye to eye with me there, or here, doesn't make me scum nor early policy lynching scummy.

I was town there, does that weigh into your beliefs about this game at all?

No. And you're an idiot if you think meta-ing can be done off of one alignment only. Actually, it's pretty suspicious that you'd be suggesting that. You've been around for a while, you should really know how meta works.

[Toogeloo]

Only thing is, scum would need to policy him, as a false cop claim with a guilty would out them and a NK would be wasted by scum.

Why would scum do that? Lowell is the perfect type of player for a scum to have around at Lynch or Lose. So long they have appeared more pro-town than him, he is an easy mislynch by that point. I've seen this happen to Lowell personally in Traffic where he was mislynched as town because he wasn't pro-town in the slightest, and the last scum was very pro-town.

[Tazaro]

So, about Lowell. There's always the chance he'll replace out...

[Tazaro]

But seriously, let's change the talk from Lowell and concentrate on the people who have the most votes, so our conversation has less tangential talk.
I want to vote against a person who I see as obviously unhelpful and I want to punish with more votes than he has,

VOTE: Charlie

[Lowell]

Hey, everyone, why don't we stop the flamefest before it starts getting ugly and discuss things properly please. It doesn't matter if you think Lowell's play in other games is bad or scummy or what, what DOES matter is the fact that LOWELL'S PLAY IN THIS GAME IS ANTI-TOWN. How about instead of focusing on player-focused policy lynches and meta we focus on the only policy lynch everyone follows - lynch the scum.

unvote, vote wraith

. This is an incredible overreaction, so OMGUS on you. I feel like you're having an argument with yourself. What happened here is wraith dug himself a hole, and now wants to pretend that his tunnelling on me made sense all along.

To 'meta' myself on folks' behalf. I draw fire because I 'play scummy' (whatever that means) and sometimes lurk, particularly at the beginning. But more often than not those that get overly agitated at my play are scum trying to pick on an easy target.

@tarazo- I never replace out. I'm actually very good at keeping up.

[Tazaro]

Eh, I don't know what to think of you, Lowell.

[Charlie]

My, you're judgemental. Can I see your full case against me?

[Tazaro]

charlie: I can see how people are nervous about him. His attention span could be in display here. What is worthy of note is: the post he made after being pressured to give content is okay, but he should have given such content before. Charlie's got to be prodded to talk, I don't know whether I can trust someone like that.

It's simple really. I think you'd do better if we get some carrots (no pun intended) and sticks on you. I mean, why do you play like you do? Is it your attention span, or is it strategy of some sort? Did anyone mention to you about that post you did after you got nudged to do it? I don't mean it as a suspicion vote; it's a policy / pressure thing.

[Tazaro]

By the way, the post-nudge posting I'm talking about from you, Charlie, is this:

Let's get this analysis on the road. So if you'll are paying attention, the company's prozac is at stake. This is important as antidepressants play an important part in the pharmacological management of major depressive disorder, a common psychiatric condition. This is good motivation to play a good game! Who I sorta know is AGar and Anon. I've read some games containing Zorblag, Benmage, tubby316 and Toon Fighter.

On page 1, it appears Troll is self-appointed pseudo-IC in this game. Great first impression. Page 2 is a slew of random votes.
Page 3 marks the transition out of the RVS with AGar's #74. I feel anything said before that is a null tell.

I agree that pushing policy lynches is a scumtell, but I was not even attempting to push it at all.

I disagree, pushing policy lynches is a null-tell on D1 and slightly scummy after D1.

Note that I was not attempting to prolong the RVS myself, rather I was going with the flow. I also deflected the first attempt by fugitive in order to see if he was simply scum trying to set himself up to look townie or a townie themselves. If he was the former, he would've made the one not-so-forceful attempt and continued with the RVS if it failed. However, he kept at it, kept applying pressure. +Town points for seriously trying to end the RVS. Toogeloo seems leaning +town as well, as he was fairly forceful in his attempt to end the RVS.

Are you serious. You ended the RVS with #74. You did not "go with the flow".
Why is someone town for trying to end RVS?

unvote, vote diginova, he doth protest too much.

That's bullcrap right there.

I agree with Charlie, I'm gonna go with a null tell on this one.

Wow, I totally missed this statement expressing agreement. I didn't really explain my null tell at that time. I did now.

My experience with Mr.Sandman is pretty limited but reading through the thread just now it was concerning that he had picked up his prod and not responded.

I think he's a bit likely to hang back as scum...<snip>...I'd like a bit more from Charlie and Wraith than we're getting from their posts thus far but it's still early so I'll see what develops on that front.

Why?

And thank you!

At page 4, mothrax votes > diginova votes.

Now this is a super small thing, but why use "in fact" at the start, and then "truthfully" at the end? That seems like a nervous scum member to me, maybe even a scum PR that is nervous that, if he gets lynched, he'll lose his abilities and severely hinder his team.

Weak case.

I've seen this sort of defensive deflections as well, with him bringing up all sorts of people, millar, agar, mothrax, to try to get people to turn their attention to everyone else. When I put my vote on him, he attacked me, doing whatever he could to deflect attention away from himself.

Now can you tell us whether you think this is townish or scummy type of defense?

At page 5, Mr. Sandman is pro-town. The suspicion on mothrax is infinitely more important than the fact he is mafia or not.

The only discussion that was promoted was focused on yourself and why a pro-town player would do that. You're lucky Digi is looking scummier right now.

Are you saying that you find Fugitive suspicious? If yes how much so?

ok im reareading now

Oho. Looks like you weren't paying attention to the game either. Like me. You've disappeared, got prodded and returned with a "seemingly convincing" case on me. This is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black. Make better cases please.

Toon Fighter #131 displays some flawed logic/inadequate explanation. The statements and votes do not co-relate. The explanation is confusing; please reword.

Aout mothrax: I dislike him not putting his vote where his mouth is. His RVS stances are weird. "Woohoo a wagon is on me" feels fabricated and not natural from a townie entity.

Once again, the all important question: Is this scummy? Also, that entire post bleeds a neutral stance. Are you saying that one of mothrax and diginova is likely to be mafia?

CCARaven4 = voted because someone told him to, using huge crap-logic in his voting pattern.

Bit harsh, but yeah kinda agree thus far.

At page 6, diginova claimed town jailkeeper. Yes, believable. Anyone still pushing for his lynch deserves a big fat FoS (nobody has done this, eh?)

I've already addressed Lowell's #152.

At the time I thought AGar was scummy because of all of his votehopping... I hadn't had a chance to reread the whole thing and had just skimmed most of the wall o texts... After I re-read the thread I changed my mind. I didn't really see AGar as scummy, just as an agressive player. I did however see digi as scum for the reasons I have already listed.

I like that; and I agree. Aggression is not anti-town and could be a useful tool when used correctly. AGar seems to be doing all the pro-town things.

Wraith's #156is horrible.

Hmm, a claim already. It's suboptimal. We need to establish from here on out that it's not time to claim until someone's actually ready to hammer. That means that everyone else needs to agree not to hammer before claims. If anyone is going to have trouble with that speak up now.

It isn't optimal here...the game is large; voices conflict too often. Also, this game actually started as a Large Newbie, and got converted into a Large Normal. I would agree with you if we were sill in the former but things change a bit now.

@Toogeloo and mothrax, I take it that diginova's claim doesn't change your feelings about him significantly. You're both leaving your votes on him without mentioning it.

Needs to be answered...

@Zorblag No, his claim doesn't... even if the roleclaim is true, like you said, the allignment could go either way. I don't necessarily believe him when he says that he is town alligned...

I don't buy it.

Just a question: Wouldn't a scum jailkeeper be a bit of a bastard role?

This is true, me thinks. AGar's vote on Wraith is good too.

Look people. This is originally a Large Newbie setup, albeit experimental. It failed and got converted into a Large Normal setup. Thinking of things like a Mafia Jailkeeper is ludicrous (apologies to Zorblag, who first suggested it). Diginova is town, of this I'm sure and am willing to bet my virtual life in this thread on it.

@Charlie, would you say your play here is different from your play in Left 4 Dead? I suppose I'll let you come up with your content past that as you've just said that it would be coming.

More laid back, this just changed as of this post.

I'm done here. I confess that I'm a bit lazy but I try my best to deliver stuff at the end of the day. Anon, I realize your case on me is poor because Wraith is far worse (or equally) lackadaisical here. You points were "seemingly reasonable" and I have justified that.

Vote: Wraith

FoS: mothrax

FoS: CCARaven4

FoS: Zorblag

[Benmage]

So I should let you know every time I'm wiping my ass?? Are you serious right now with this crap. The invitational ate my time keeping me away from here. You can't argue that. Should I list everything that distracts me? Clearly you aren’t worried about the last line about the invitational alone being interesting and distracting or you wouldn’t have looked to see if I was in any other ques/games. So your point now that my other games and RL is null…is bullshit.

You've wholly overreacted to the fact that I said you went under after your attempt at a policy lynch went under. My point may have been proven null, but it gathered fruits of its own. Why are you so concerned about one statement. You could've simply brushed it off, said "Nah, I'm pre-occupied. Chill." Instead,you've flipped your lidd.

I flipped my lid? This sounds like more of those exaggerated false statements you seem so fond of.

The fact that you dropped an atrocious vote. Yeah I might've been more eager to look into that.

@Agar what do you think of Wraith's vote on Lowell?

I've commented on this. Read the thread.

If I make questions that have answers to them that maybe I didn't see it or didn't understand the first time around can you (AND BY YOU I MEAN EVERYONE IN THIS GAME) Restate them for there is no reason to be obstinate. Or you can help me by saying which iso number or which quote. There is no reason as town to be difficult. You’re going to know your own words and what you said where/when you said so it'll be much easier for you to say/show such things than for me to try and find it in iso's re-reads. Point is being unnecessarily difficult is scummy. So will you be helpful?

@Agar what do you think of Anon?

Anon is interesting, pretty weird player. Needs more content to get a read.

So he, who has been away and a far worse contributor than I, is only "weird". Good to see how your going to function as a player here. Which for those who may not be able to understand what I’m saying. Is you will be a hypocrite and use instants only when they suite ulterior motives. You complain about my shortening in activity to vote me. Yet when there are far worse guilty parties…you don’t seem to care.

@Agar what do you think of the other players saying Policy lynches D1 are the best time for one. And or would be for a policy lynch.

I think I made it pretty clear.

I don't think you made it clear, otherwise I wouldn't ask. I don't think you've questioned anyone else's statements other than my own on the issue. Can you comment about reads you have town/scummy/netrual etc for these people.

When an informative role has targeted him with an alignment, or not at all when he bites a vig-kill. Better solutions for lowell than just policy lynching. Only thing is, scum would need to policy him, as a false cop claim with a guilty would out them and a NK would be wasted by scum.

Why would scum need to policy him? Scum never want to see a player like Lowell die. Shittt what if he is scum? You never even seem to want to think about that possibility which worries me greatly.

What do you do, Agar, when you and Lowell are in lylo and you have nothing but his normal "null" always scummy meta to go off of?

Feck, this didn't post with the rest.

I meant to say in the top part with the valuing of meta. That you just witnessed a game, yes get mith-ended, that had me as a townie pushing an early policy lynch. Just cause you couldn't grasp my points or see eye to eye with me there, or here, doesn't make me scum nor early policy lynching scummy.

I was town there, does that weigh into your beliefs about this game at all?

No. And you're an idiot if you think meta-ing can be done off of one alignment only. Actually, it's pretty suspicious that you'd be suggesting that. You've been around for a while, you should really know how meta works.

Again, my point here was to test your capacity to see if this knew knowledge even touched or imprinted upon your beliefs. Which I can see your stubbornness with be quite the fault. I have a wonderful understanding of how meta works. And moreover a much better understanding how scum work. Like in the game you just witnessed, no scum would’ve sought after the unnecessary attention I was. As in this game no scum is going to push a D1 policy lynch. Most as people have agreed upon that scum look for the easy lynch later on in the game. I can show you more examples of games where I’ve policy’d or tried to policy as town. I don’t think I actually have a meta of doing them/attempting to do them as scum, but you’re welcomed to look.

[Tazaro]

My, you're judgemental.

Look, you're in no danger of being lynched. And "judgmental"? That's a new one; I'm actually a nice guy .

[Toogeloo]

My, you're judgemental.

Look, you're in no danger of being lynched. And "judgmental"? That's a new one; I'm actually a nice guy .

That's not really a confidence inspiring post for someone who wants Charlie dead. It's your job to get us riled up on why he needs to be in danger of being lynched.

[Porochaz]

August the 7th is deadline.

Votecount tomorrow along with prods if needed.

[AGar]

Ben, I'm not re-highlighting my stance on Wraith's vote, because it should've been seen if you were reading.

For the rest of your post. Anon hasn't posted enough for me to glean a read. Pushing a policy lynch is pretty telling to me. You haven't recovered and shown me that you're acting any more beneficial to the town, so I'm not sure why I should all of the sudden drop my read on you. Anon has lurked. I'm not big on LALurkers. I'm not giving you a list of my reads as to who is town/null whatever, because that's, in my opinion, one of the worst things a town can do. If scum want Lowell gone, the only way is to policy him. You seemed to have missed that point. You may be right, scum probably don't want him gone. But a vig or an investigative role can also target him and clear it up very quickly. Your hypothetical about Lowell, you've given me only 2/3 of the options. Who's the last player? How have they behaved? If there's someone who's been clearly pro-town, I'll vote Lowell. If they've behaved clearly scummy, I'll vote them. If they're reading neutral and so is Lowell, I'm forced to go on gut, but then again, half of all LYLO situations usually come down to gut anyways. Usually if you're in LYLO, it's because you're either a liability to town because of your behavior or you've been dead wrong about your reads anyways.

[AGar]

Oh wait, missed a part.

Again, my point here was to test your capacity to see if this knew knowledge even touched or imprinted upon your beliefs. Which I can see your stubbornness with be quite the fault. I have a wonderful understanding of how meta works. And moreover a much better understanding how scum work. Like in the game you just witnessed, no scum would’ve sought after the unnecessary attention I was. As in this game no scum is going to push a D1 policy lynch. Most as people have agreed upon that scum look for the easy lynch later on in the game. I can show you more examples of games where I’ve policy’d or tried to policy as town. I don’t think I actually have a meta of doing them/attempting to do them as scum, but you’re welcomed to look.

I'm not going to meta you on your request. I'll meta people when I see fit to meta people. For the rest of your post, I'll have none of your WIFOM as a reasoning of why you wouldn't do it. There's a lot of things that "no scum" are going to do that someone as scum has done. So get off the whole "OMG NO SCUM DOES THIS, I DID IT, I CAN'T BE SCUM."

[Charlie]

My, you're judgemental.

Look, you're in no danger of being lynched. And "judgmental"? That's a new one; I'm actually a nice guy .

No no don't take it the wrong way! I'm saying you're judgmental in a neutral kind of way; I am in no way implying that is a bad thing. In fact, it can be a good thing in mafia games.

I accept Tazaro's case + reasonings against me as pro-town. I offer no defense but my word to work on better cases (even though it may be detrimental to my survival rate).

In other news:
@everyone: MORE VOTING on whoever you suspect please!

[Zorblag]

I had life come up for a bit there. I'll catch up and post my thoughts later this morning (PDT). Sorry about that absence.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Stef]

Posting from phone. Will be without PC access until tomorrow night.

[Tazaro]

@everyone: MORE VOTING on whoever you suspect please!

I agree because low activity gives me withdrawal.

[Tazaro]

When there's ghost town, I feel like I have to say something, but I'm blanking right now.

[Zorblag]

So here are some issues that I have with what's happening right now:

tubby216 responded to pressure by getting in here and posting some thoughts on players. That was good. After that he seems to have been under no pressure and he's gone back to not posting anything at all.

diginova seems to have essentially disappeared since he made his claim and the pressure left him. He's given some excuses (which are plausible enough) but then promised content and failed to deliver. I don't like that.

Charlie did get the post he promised in when pressured but has largely lapsed since then (mind you, he's better than the first two here; I don't plan to push him but I'd like to see more of him making cases.)

Most of the attention at this point seems to be focused on players who are actively posting. While they could be scum it also means that we're largely ignoring the players who aren't doing anything in the game. Players who post are more likely to look scummy than those who don't regardless of their alignment. Players who aren't posting don't make any slips; if we're mostly looking at them then we allow scum (who have every reason to play under the radar) to get away with no connections in the early game which makes them that much harder to catch in the end game.

Having said that, it is time to start consolidating votes. I'm going to give others a day to join me on a tubby216 wagon if they'd like and if they don't I'll be picking out whichever of the top three wagons looks scummiest to move to. I'd like a vote count to figure out who that entails and that should be coming soon.

@tubby216, I don't have any trouble with you being wary of me (or anyone else) because you think that they're competent so long as you don't start calling for a lynch solely on the grounds that someone could be misleading the town if they're scum.

@Wraith, how likely do you think Lowell and fugitive would be to mimic each other's actions if both were scum? I realize that you picked Lowell to vote for but it'd be pretty surprising to me if both Lowell and Tazaro (replacing fugitive) were scum based on the arguments you were making.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mr.Sandman]

I don't see anything particularly scummy about benmage.

Post 304 does nothing to help Stef, jumping on that wagon out of nowhere.

unvote

Anon because my vote isn't doing anything there. Anon seems to have disappeared. I think I'm the only one voting, although I will rejoin if it gains support.

I'm lazy, I'll leave counting up the votes to the mod, but when the vote count comes given that the deadline is approaching, I would prefer lynches of Stef, mothrax and Anon and possibly Wraith or Raven, and will vote accordingly.

Everyone who finds me scummy (or finds me to be the "scummiest person in the game") please explain to me what exactly it is you find me scummy for. Since multiple people are claiming that they "don't like" such and such about me and that I have apparently failed to properly defend myself against attacks, I would like to know specifically what those attacks are, since all I see are "reaction to vote" as well as "needs more pressure"
I can't defend myself if I don't know why you are attacking me...
I will say this (again.) My reaction to the bandwagon was relaxed for multiple reasons.
A)It wasn't that large of a wagon, L-4/L-3 are not worrisome numbers for me, especially relatively early D1.
B)If the wagon had been succesful, it would have aided town anyways... I have people claiming I am just looking out for myself which I don't see. Yeah, it would be nice to stay alive, but if I die, I die and can still win. My death would have also allowed the town to analyze the wagon on me, and analyze my interaction with others (i.e. who came down on me hardest, etc...) IMO voting patterns and interactions with confirmed players are some of the most resourceful tools for town to use.

This looks to me like someone trying to think in hindsight of every possible reason why someone would do that, which takes away the whole sincerity of it. I mean that in terms of A and B contradicting each other. You say you didn't need to defend yourself because you weren't worried about the numbers, but then you also say that you wouldn't necessarily have minded being lynched anyway. Did you really sit there at the time and think I don't need to defend myself because if I get lynched, it'll help the town? I don't see how not defending yourself is pro-town. Going by that logic, every time a townie is attacked they should just let themselves get lynched so that everyone else can analyse.

Wraith, I don't like the way he's trying to get a lynch on Lowell, when it's fairly likely that won't happen today because of the number of people who are opposed. It's as if he doesn't want to be associated with a bandwagon for a pro-town player. He's pretty much the only player, other than defending benmage slightly, that Wraith has commented on. He's made no attempts to push any of the other scum reads he came up with when he ISO'd, just push the Lowell one.

Raven, because he's just saying whatever pops into his head which he thinks he'll get away with given whatever the general tendency in the game at the time is.

One example:

I hate Charlie's play. If anything, a policy lynch should be brought upon him for being unwilling to scumhunt unless told to. If someone has to tell you to scumhunt to avoid be lynched and you're not scumhunting on your own, then you are severely anti-town and should be lynched.

Unvote, Vote: Charlie

Policy lynches on D1 don't work because we're not left with much for the next day. Also, we should probably lynch a more active person because that will give us more information to work off of for 'tomorrow'. Lynching a semi-lurker won't help us much unless we're sure they're lurker-scum.

Massive contradiction. Wants to policy-lynch charlie then says that policy-lynches don't work.

[Benmage]

Thats a good raven dig, whose also flying under the radar, as troll generalized.

[Porochaz]

Benmage - 3 - Anon, Agar, Stef
Mothrax - 2 - Toon Fighter, Toogeloo
Charlie - 2 -CCARaven, Tazaro
Wraith - 2 - Charlie, Lowell
Lowell - 1 - Wraith
tubby - 1 - Zorblag
Toon Fighter - 1 - mothrax

Not Voting - 4 - Diginova, tubby, benmage, mr. Sandman

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline August 7th

Looking at prods momentarily.