/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Amished]

I'm so glad we're getting useful catchup posts from seraphim....

/sarcasm

[Plumegranate]

Zito. You expressed willingness to answer Troll's questions about the Hider claim Day 0. You didn't dismiss it as chiding then; you seemed to genuinely be willing to answer it:

I'll answer Troll's post when it's less midnight.

I'm not a hider?

What is this mess.

Troll, you still want answers to stuff or is it moot at this point?

For me it's not moot; it's a part of helping me determine whether your behavior about the Hider claim idea today is a scummy attempt to poke holes in the believability of the Hider claims which have gone down by now or genuinely some sort of Townie allergic reaction to the very idea of the claim. Because I'll say it now: If there is a Hider, or two, who falsely claimed not Hider, even if the best of intentions were there, even if they both thought Hider claiming was a completely bad idea, I will punch them out at the end of the game. Or tear my hair out. Because putting the Town in such a heavy WIFOM situation on purpose is easily more hurtful than going along with what they'd have thought a sub-optimal tactic. But you attacking Troll and dismissing his questions as chiding re: a part of the game you're uninterested in is dodging questions. Please stop dodging and answer. I like me some infoz. Troll said lots of stuff since he's voted you but I want to hear some things and see whether there's an underpinning of logic or what the heck you could be thinking about this. But avoiding the question isn't helpful to either of us.

I've played with lots of Kmd scum (in minis; haven't seen him as scum in a Large). In any case, I generally recall Kmd-scum to have a different feel than here; probably a little more concerned about keeping up appearances and posting more/offering bigger chunks of analysis. Nothing conclusive, but I'm not overly impressed that he's much scummy.

To find the hider(s). Is this one of those forest/trees situations where people are missing the obvious?

Current theory is that there are one or two hiders out there who were smart enough not to claim despite all the noise in the thread about them. I guess we'll see.

Think it's likely the scum gave us one Hider? Or two? Or is it just based on your feelings on Troll and his perceived scumminess? Just out of curiosity.

Why is there a wagon on VV? I missed something here. Uh, ooba? Someone? I need more than 'I want to see where this goes. Also law of averages" to understand what VV's done/why wagoning him might be a good idea. Tajo? I guess I sympathize with question dodging BUT.

Well, sorry but that was not my main argument for being pro-assassin. It was more of a small "in-addition", like it didn't even play into the reason why I wanted to give the assassin, it was just to say that I didn't feel the negative of an assassin in the unlikely event it actually got a successful shot off was really all that bad. Even if it would be a scum directed kill on a PR, typically targets of scum nk's are suspected by someone in the game, and eliminating them as a suspect (through nk) helps those players narrow in on scum. I know there are times where I've been in a better position the next day when a scum nk hit a player I had a gut scum read on that was clouding my reads on everyone else.

Fair enough that it wasn't your main point. I disagree; typical scum targets or often suspected by few people in the game, because scum like to use the NK to kill off players they can't get lynched. I'm certain that some examples of what you're talking about exist, and it's perfectly plausible that you're a Townie who generally feels this way. But the fact that you used such an argument gives me some definitely cold prickly-type feelings about you. I don't want to misrep you, but you made that argument as part of your overall argument and I find it misleading and quite off, and overall noticeably scummy. The rest of your play has not concerned me too much, but. This remains in the back of my head. I have distinct reservations about you because of this.

As a minor favor, could scumteam speculation be minimized Day 1? I find it distracting and too generally inaccurate to be of much practical use at this point in the game. There just seems to be a lot of 'oh, X could probably be the scumbuddy of Y' and such.

Papa zito to me comes across as more frustrating than scummy. I reserve the right to revise that, but so far he just comes across as kind of an asshole.

Yeah, but he's usually not an asshole. It may be worth looking into.

Tajo's post listing the lurkers &c. is by no means the most useful thing I've seen but it's as good a technique as any and I've had a strong townread on him thus far and I'd trust that. It seems to be Town-motivated, at any rate).

[mith]

DGB: "Was that a leading question, or are you actually interested in the answer?" - Was that a leading question, or are you actually interested in the answer? Because if you're interested in the answer, you've already given it for him...

532/533 seem interesting, but I'm too tired to put my finger on why. Between her vote, 527, and 534, DGB is all over the map. At least she took a definitive stance on Hoopla.

[VasudeVa]

Sweet. I'm the scum-driven counterwagon. I very much like the fact that Hoopla is voting for Hero, FYI. That looks a bit like something I saw before from a scumbag somewhere.

Hey Amished, doesn't this look a little bit familiar?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Hoopla (8) -- Papa Zito, Amished, mith, ekiM, VasudeVa, Elmo, Plumegranate, SpyreX
VasudeVa (3) -- populartajo, ooba, Herodotus
zoraster (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Kmd4390
Papa Zito (2) -- Zorblag, Rhinox
Herodotus (1) -- Hoopla
Kmd4390 (1) -- Ellibereth
DrippingGoofball (1) -- zoraster

Not Voting (2) -- My Milked Eek, Seraphim

With 20 alive, 11 votes will be needed to lynch. Deadline: 25th of August, at 12:30 am US Central Time.
I'm talking to MME via PMs. He'll have to be replaced, temporarily or otherwise.

[zoraster]

V/LA until Sunday night

[Zorblag]

Troll will be V/LA at Scumstorm for the weekend starting shortly after this post. Troll will be home before the deadline if there be any need for Troll's vote to be sure that we get a lynch today.

@Papa Zito, your attempts to hinder the decision making process day 0 show up where ever you said we should stop thinking things through and get on with playing without providing any reasons at all for why you opposed the ideas being discussed. If you want particular posts Troll will cite your isolation posts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6. Post 8 be particularly bad as it was made when there no was a clear preference against claiming (and in fact in the end there was at least as much support for it as opposition.)

The hider be nice in that it can do the same confirming of innocents whether them be claimed or not. In many ways it be better to have them doing it while claimed as the other town power roles can then act in ways that support the hiding (depending on what the roles be.) The fact that a hider claim no be any sort of death sentence for that role be why Troll was calling for hiders to claim in particular. Of course Papa Zito should know all of that if him had been following the game. The entire stance you be taking on hiders be absurd; you should be a better player than this.

In all, the idea that "the PRs available all are fairly weak and crappy anyway" does not match with this idea that any sort of claiming is inherently bad and must be role fishing. It also doesn't match with Papa Zito thinking that a janitor's power is crippling but not even considering a rolecop.

Papa Zito be trying to excuse what him should know be anti-town play with his overall philosophy. The trouble with that be that Papa Zito no would be so blinded to rational though if him were town. Troll tried to engage him in a discussion of it earlier but him no was about for the next bit. When Plumegranate came back she pointed out the questions that Troll had asked and him brushed them off as Troll chiding Papa Zito. If Papa Zito had some actual reasons why the claiming was bad Troll would have been all for hearing them but him didn't; him just be throwing up a dogmatic opinion in a place where actual thought be called for.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ooba]

@Hero, I added that to see who would call me out on that but hadn't called PZ out on it. You did but mitigated by the fact that you think PZ was joking
- I don't like how Rhinox's wants to move away from theory discuss when questioned by Plum. Addn: Plum following up in 551 gives me town vibes.

505: If PZ flips scum, this weak post voting the alternate wagon makes Hero possible scumbuddies with PZ. But if Vas flips scum, this vote only reinforces town read on Hero.

523: Might be my confirmation bias working here, but the last part might be a mild bus. He "inconsistencies like that interest him" but he neither votes me nor Vas.

528: I think Hero brings up a good point on the slip.

Vote: Zoraster

Surprised not many people have acknowledged it .. 545 has mild spyrex-zoraster links because
- His hero-Rhinox case is actually good but
- chooses to vote Hoopla??

[Patrick]

SaintKerrigan will be replacing My Milked Eek for a period of roughly 2.5 weeks. Many thanks to him.

[SaintKerrigan]

'Sup, folks? Looks like there's quite a few people I know, so an extra "hiya" to those guys.

I'll be reading up on the thread and hopefully have contribution either later today or tomorrow.

[Herodotus]

I'm glad I answered your question.

I suppose you did, though your answer left me unsatisfied.

Yea. It's pretty clear that it wasn't a "random" sampling and even you yourself make mention of it. Which is super awesome considering you were in that list.

Me Grimlock no like post. Not at all.

What?

No, seriously, what? You make no sense.

What?

No, seriously, what?

It's like bizarro world here where I'm trying to figure out this AWESOME KMD WAGON and somehow I'm patted on the head and given a town star?

You could look at the context for the reason I thought you were town. It was based on your reaction to the Hoopla wagon. Acknowledging that there was a reason for it, but deciding not to join it.
There is no apparent point to the votecount you posted. Non-sequitur much?
... and then you pounce onto the hoopla wagon. Apparently your top three choices for lynch day 1 are all either likely or certain townies. (I'm not sure I have mentioned this yet, but I think Hoopla is likely town, and I won't be voting her after all.)

Also, choosing Janitor was probably terrible but we'll see how it plays out. Probably better than the rolecop and waaaay better than the assassin.

We did have to choose 2 out of 4...

Why is there a wagon on VV? I missed something here. Uh, ooba? Someone? I need more than 'I want to see where this goes. Also law of averages" to understand what VV's done/why wagoning him might be a good idea. Tajo? I guess I sympathize with question dodging BUT.

For me, it started with the question dodging. I've looked through their posts in ISO since then. There's nothing that looks like scumhunting, and nothing in their D1 posts that suggests to me they are town; would you say the same?
And Vas has posted again without answering. Vas is playing a severely anti-town game: no scumhunting, voting a probable townie apparently only for the purpose of bandwagoning, and dodging a question.

@Ooba (re:505): a vote for PZ wouldn't have done much but demonstrate the support that I already stated. A vote for Vas says, "answer the question or face a growing wagon." I expected when I voted Vas that they would answer the question, and if their response wasn't scummy, I would have moved my vote to PZ. Right now, I'd join a PZ wagon if he became the alternative to a Hoopla lynch. But Vas's continued dodging brought my attention to the other details, and KMD is quite scummy as well.
Rhinox is playing very differently from how I've seen him play as scum; I don't think you're on the right track regarding him.

I said there were good reasons to vote KMD, so I should probably go ahead and cover some.
Bandwagon analysis is what KMD does. As a townie, he would never want a janitor interfering with that. His support for a janitor is a strong scumtell.
Check out this combo:

Dgb's reaction to a vote is awfully defensive.

Vote Zoraster

A major change of direction, which I am guessing was based on the fact that the DGB wagon he expected did not materialize.

Rhinox, no. Just lazy. Didn't know the hider claim thing was going on. I don't think I actually saw 348 or 349. I was bored of the whole "what roles should we give scum" discussion and was pretty much waiting for the actual game, so I skimmed over the role related stuff.

It's pretty hard to miss the approxiamately 15 posts saying "I'm not a hider" while skimming page 11.
There's the lurking and lack of scumhunting too, but those get to be afterthoughts in this case, considering the weight of the scumminess above.

[Seraphim]

I'm so glad we're getting useful catchup posts from seraphim....

/sarcasm

Oh shut up, you try reading through this son of a bitch, it's taking forever...and I can't get scum/town reads based on what's happening D0.

[SpyreX]

What?

No, seriously, what? You make no sense.

Rhinox, one of the illustrious group called out, proceeds to snipe about any "random" list (hint: it wasn't random) and the statistics behind it (hint: those don't matter in this case) and then even go so far as to say being prodded != lurking != being scum.

Yea, I don't make sense. My bad.

Just like here:

You could look at the context for the reason I thought you were town. It was based on your reaction to the Hoopla wagon. Acknowledging that there was a reason for it, but deciding not to join it.
There is no apparent point to the votecount you posted. Non-sequitur much?
... and then you pounce onto the hoopla wagon. Apparently your top three choices for lynch day 1 are all either likely or certain townies. (I'm not sure I have mentioned this yet, but I think Hoopla is likely town, and I won't be voting her after all.)

There is a reason for it but THAT reason isn't why I've become convinced. Its a.) partly because its clear I'm not getting YOU lynched today and b.) the simple fact Hoopster has become more and more of a non-entitiy since it started. She is dodging mith and there's not a good reason for it.

And I guess I'll spell it out when I didn't think I had to since NO ONE COMMENTED ON IT:

I got three responses to the KMD wagon - 2 from people on it, 1 from someone not. The one off of it says its a clear counterwagon and lets it go. The other two go, "Ohh SpyreX there are reaaasons" and give me a little head pat.

Which two votes have moved since then?

Yea, like I said: Zito is town. You two are way up there on the death list (I'd be a LITTLE surprised if you both were scum but I digress).

I mean, scum or masons but no masons sooo there you go.

[Seraphim]

Alright, I have fairly decent reads on most players in this game. I definitely, definitely see why Hoopla is getting lynched; I would be voting her if scum didn't have daytalk...her entire "frazzled" act seems really forced especially after her strong start Day 0. However, you'd think that would be avoided with daytalk...but I digress. I would not be adverse to a Hoopla lynch at this moment in time.

However,

Vote: VasudeVa

Ever since the day started it's been minimal active-lurkingish content combined with minimal content vote jumps action

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

Vote: ooba

Also, you're reading way too much into that.

Vote: KMD

Let's get a serious bandwagon going on. Still interested in what ooba has to say to my point against him though.

vote: Hoopla

I want to see where this goes.

I also really, really do NOT like this post in particular:

Sweet. I'm the scum-driven counterwagon. I very much like the fact that Hoopla is voting for Hero, FYI. That looks a bit like something I saw before from a scumbag somewhere.

Hey Amished, doesn't this look a little bit familiar?

And he continues to dodge Tajo's line of questioning.

I have some other scum suspects but I'm definitely not sure of them yet. Pretty sure that VV is scum though. He looks like classic out-of-his-league newbscum.

[VasudeVa]

I see very little point in self-metaing to answer Tajo's question. No matter what my alignment is, I will always answer in a way that will give me town points. I was more concerned with the fact that he apparently knows my meta even if I have never played with him before nor have ever talked to him outside of games.

So, yes. I am dodging the question because it was pointless and suspicious.

---
@Seraph: Actually, I do feel out of league. There are way too many people and way too many stuff going on for me to handle. (In fact, I'm slightly disappointed that I did get into a game as large as this one. But ah, that's what I get for not mentioning stuff like that because it looked like all the mods in the /in-vitational list were doing minis. *grumble*)

That's quite a lazy case. Quote all my vote hops, proceed with lazy newbscum case on the competing wagon. Hmmm??

FoS: Seraph

[Seraphim]

Actually, I do feel out of league. There are way too many people and way too many stuff going on for me to handle.

I can totally tell when it's happening having had it happen to me several times before. Not this time though.

I also love how you keep referring to yourself as the "competing wagon" very smugly, as if it somehow justifies attacks on those on your wagon, like they're scum for voting you. Until you flip, you aren't confirmed in any sense, even if Hoopla swings today. Tajo is one of my strongest town reads ATM and he started the so-called "counter-wagon".

Nice OMGUS, BTW, even if you tried to cover it up with a FoS.

[Rhinox]

Hey Vasu...

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

This being the case, why do you seem to be taking offense to being wagoned on yourself?



More later. Heading home.

[VasudeVa]

Well, I obviously know I'm Town. And seeing as Tajo and a few others started voting for me, scum thought "Hey, there's a pretty cool guy to counterwagon to save our buddy.¹.". The fact that this wagon on me is building up at a suspicious pace raises eyebrows.

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

₁:

In the event that Hoopla is scum, which I think is the case.

prev-edit: @Rhinox: Well, I can't just blindly agree to my mislynch now, can I? Also, where did I 'take offense' from the wagon?

[Seraphim]

Well, I obviously know I'm Town. And seeing as Tajo and a few others started voting for me, scum thought "Hey, there's a pretty cool guy to counterwagon to save our buddy.1.". The fact that this wagon on me is building up at a suspicious pace raises eyebrows.

This is what I'm talking about. He's basically attacking everyone who votes for him(except for Tajo) by lumping them into scum.

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

Nice appeal to emotion, which this totally is. You are leveling accusations on me based on nothing with the intent to discredit my argument by calling it "lazy" while avoiding the actual points presented. Maybe that's not OMGUS but that's exactly what you're doing right now.

[VasudeVa]

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question. Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

Also, I have answered your lazy case(Which seems to be a lazy bandwagoning case.) waaayy before you even asked it.

Reread properly and try again.

[Seraphim]

Once again, the appeal to emotion.

Now.

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question.

Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

...I don't understand the bolded portion. Why does this matter?

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

Smells like a copout to avoid accountability for your votes. While I understand and even agree with what you're saying, there should still be some reasoning behind it besides "let's see where the wagon goes".

If you want to talk about lazy bandwagoning, let's take a look at your post jumping onto the Hoopla wagon: here. Looks like a serious double-standard.

[Seraphim]

Once again, the appeal to emotion.

Now.

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question.

Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

...I don't understand the bolded portion. Why does this matter?

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

Smells like a copout to avoid accountability for your votes. While I understand and even agree with what you're saying, there should still be some reasoning behind it besides "let's see where the wagon goes".

If you want to talk about lazy bandwagoning, let's take a look at your post jumping onto the Hoopla wagon: here. Looks like a serious double-standard.

[VasudeVa]

This is what I'm talking about. He's basically attacking everyone who votes for him(except for Tajo) by lumping them into scum.

I seem to have phrased that wrongly. I never voted for them for attacking me. I started voting them when they got wagons behind them. Those votes came before Tajo's question, which in turn I think started the wagon on me.

There

is

reasoning behind it. And the reasoning came from the people starting the wagon. I like to listen to people, helps getting people lynched/wagoned heavily. Wagons need to reach a certain L-# before people start taking them seriously. I help other people reach that L-#.

What's wrong with my vote there? That's a pretty standard votehop^tm.

[SpyreX]

...

You can't be real.

Unvote, Vote: VV

Its like a damn scum manifesto

[Seraphim]

Let me break it down for you, VV. You are

voting

players for reasons other players have provided and then

attacking

other players for voting you. It's scum play through and through. You're not scumhunting, you're jumping onto wagons to make it look like you are scumhunting. Then, you attack the people wagoning you while being snide and snotty about it.

Hoopla was probably going to get lynched. At what point is a person wagoned enough? When they get a claim? Are you rolefishing?

I can't believe you even have the audacity to accuse me of "lazy bandwagoning". That's hilarious.