Mafia 1013 - Prozacs Basic Theme - Game has ENDED

[Anon]

Im V/LAish for a couple of days.

[llamaeatataco]

D:<

...

vote:Anon

Also, I dislike Xvart's 519. Way to come down too hard on BB there. Seriously though, BB explicitly stated that we were pretending Jack had night abilities. Why would you purposefully make yourself look stupid in this way?

How would a PGO shoot Jack if he had no abilities to move around? Why are we pretending that he wasn't a VT when the mod said he was?

It's like he wanted to use both facts against BB but forgot that they contradict each other. (btw they were both weak anyway).

Mostly because of Fishy's behavior striked me as scum. And reading through their posts, Stranger and Fishy don't comment much about the other two. And Flameaxe straight out voted those two at the very beginning as random votes (not really much to go off of, just could be a good distancing technique).

You're right they don't comment about each other much. Random voting both of your scumbuddies at the beginning of the game is a terrible distancing technique. Also, it's struck.

I find it suss that BB posts the correct role-name but not the correct role-info.

What is this I don't even

[Blackberry]

mallow, I really want you to post.

I would also like those that haven't posted yet to post, however, after rethinking and rereading some things, I no longer have the same thoughts and reasons to ask this. But it would be helpful.

[Budja]

unvote

[xvart]

Also, I dislike Xvart's 519. Way to come down too hard on BB there. Seriously though, BB explicitly stated that we were pretending Jack had night abilities. Why would you purposefully make yourself look stupid in this way?

Coming down too hard? Explain to me what purpose pretending Jack had night actions when he obviously didn't have night actions is beneficial to the town? Why should I care if the flavor for Jack's death was a PGO when I know for a fact that a PGO didn't kill Jack last night (since Jack did not have the ability to move anywhere due to being a Vanilla Townie)? I guess if it makes me stupid for asking this again, I'll have to accept that, but what is the purpose of this exercise?

mallow, I really want you to post.

I would also like those that haven't posted yet to post, however, after rethinking and rereading some things, I no longer have the same thoughts and reasons to ask this. But it would be helpful.

Reasons to ask what? For mallow to post? Or for what you alluded to here?

xvart.

[llamaeatataco]

Sometimes people talk about stuff that isn't really relevant to the game. Are you surprised? I could find a half dozen instances in this thread alone.

[xvart]

Sometimes people talk about stuff that isn't really relevant to the game. Are you surprised? I could find a half dozen instances in this thread alone.

And I was coming down too hard how? I asked him what the purpose was. Tell me, which is worse: Me asking him about his game of pretend or my questioning him about it?

xvart.

[Porochaz]

I will be votecounting and prod checking tomorrow.

[Fishythefish]

Proper post coming in 12 hours or so.

[mallowgeno]

Gimmee a little while. I'm still rereading over the week I missed.

[mallowgeno]

"Calling people's English bad." If your English is bad, it's bad. It's not a scum move to correct someone if their English is unreadable. I do believe you are referring to my impression of Mallow, correct me if I am wrong. Certainly it's kind of a rude thing to do, but is it something scum would do?

First off, my English is not bad.

The tell is using the term "WIFOM." Especially in an unnecessary/exxagerated scenario. For example, I think Budja's use of WIFOM was not called for.

I don't believe in it because for the most part I think using WIFOM is silly and is just a way for people to try to confuse you. Most things are pretty black-and-white and can be observed with a keen eye.

Hardly a secret scumtell; in fact the the MafiaWiki says that WIFOM "is often a scum tactic to distract the town." And, in the context, from what I can tell, Budja wasn't even "using" WIFOM but asking someone about WIFOM.

I agree. Blackberry gains a scum point for using wi-fom. He tries to make a case on Budja when Budja only asked what it was about. Ironic isn't it?

Reads on current players:
Blackberry-Town
Budja-Undecided
Fishythefish-Leaning Scum
Flameaxe-Calls me oblivious but I still think town
Jack-Scum!
llamaeatataco-Leaning Town
mallowgeno-Town
Mitsuru Kirijo-Leaning Scum
Raivann-Neutral
StrangerCoug-Leaning Scum
xvart-Neutral

I don't have the same opinions on all of them anymore. I thought Blackberry was town, but now I'm thinking he is scum because I actually read back on my own with my own opinions. Wouldn't ya know! It's easier for me to play when I actually know what's going on and I'm not waiting for a scum to claim then be lynched!

Budja-I didn't know what to think of him then. I still don't know but I'm leaning town.

Fishy-I thought he was scum too until I read what he actually posted. I'm neutral about him now.

Flameaxe-Even though he insulted me, still thought he was town.

Jack-How could I not have thought he was scum? He was just a bad player.

llama-

Even though he is wrong about my poor English skills

He comes off as town for me. Yes he insults, yes he lies about English, but I still have a gut feeling he's town.

Mitsuru-Only thought she was scum because of OMGUS.

Raiv-Never really looked at him.

Stranger-Still think he's scum. If not, he's the arsonist.

xvart-I'm now thinking he's town.

vote Jack

^Me not paying attention

Vote BlackBerry

In my eyes, he's most likely to be scum right now. Him or Stranger.

[mallowgeno]

Wait I just realized something. 9 of us left. arsonist, 2 scum probably, and 6 town. It's potentially mylo. Just throwing that out there.

[Flameaxe]

I don't have the same opinions on all of them anymore. I thought Blackberry was town, but now I'm thinking he is scum because I actually read back on my own with my own opinions. Wouldn't ya know! It's easier for me to play when I actually know what's going on and I'm not waiting for a scum to claim then be lynched!

I'm not sure about you guys, but this part of the post seems fairly disgusting to me. Obviously, he points out that his opinion of Blackberry has changed, but then goes on to add that its because he reread the thread with his own opinions? Sorry, but that isn't going to be an acceptable answer right now. We have 22 pages of content, with a lot going around blackberry. Use it.

Second, this post sure does come across with the idea of you admitting that you didn't do shit day one, and now you're actually trying. That doesn't sit well with me. Why exactly did you wait until now to reread the thread with your own opinions? Who's opinions were you rereading with last time? Or have you even read at all?

Even your reads of everyone else seem off to me.

Budja-I didn't know what to think of him then. I still don't know but I'm leaning town.

Very weak opinion after an entire day. What makes you lean town?

Fishy-I thought he was scum too until I read what he actually posted. I'm neutral about him now.

This one kind of baffles me. You thought he was scum, before you actually played the game and read what he posted? 'The fuck, man. 'the fuck. This is just off.

Jack-How could I not have thought he was scum? He was just a bad player.

Remember what I said about the last one being off? Yeah, this one might top it a bit. Dwelling on your opinions of dead players gets us nowhere, and if anything it looks like you're trying to cover your tracks from yesterday. My own last part is admittedly a stretch, so I won't go any further.

llama-Even though he is wrong about my poor English skills He comes off as town for me. Yes he insults, yes he lies about English, but I still have a gut feeling he's town.

I don't understand why the english idea needs to continue to come up. It's not important, and doesn't further this game at all. Stop. Can you give us some insight as to why your gut might be leaning town?

Mitsuru-Only thought she was scum because of OMGUS.

Again, why do we need to worry about bringing up opinions of dead people. It's not important, and again, it seems like you are covering your tracks (even moreso on this one, so I won't call this a stretch).

Raiv-Never really looked at him.

Generally, it's a good idea to look at popular lynch targets during a day. Again, dead people, why?

Stranger-Still think he's scum. If not, he's the arsonist.

Just like I've bitched at other people before you, lets hear some whys. What makes you believe he is scum? Hopefully I am not the only one that finds it odd that he adds on arsonist at the end, just for good measure.

xvart-I'm now thinking he's town.

I can only assume you know where I'm going next. Why do you believe he is town?

[Flameaxe]

Mallow: There are lots of questions in there. Please answer them. (Note: The question "Dead people, why?" is used rhetorically, and does not require an answer unless you want to.)

[llamaeatataco]

Perhaps Mallow sees dead people?

[Fishythefish]

@mallow: why do you think BB is scum?

Some of SC's posts late yesterday feel a bit off to me. It's mostly gut, but I'll try to explain:

You're getting worse and worse. You have horrendous cases on Fishythefish (not allowing you a chance to answer him), Blackberry (voting you for calling llamaeatataco his scumbuddy), and Flameaxe (making walls of text and filling them with buzzwords). I do not buy any of those three as legitimate,

and I'm pretty sure there aren't that many here that do either.

The bolded is an appeal to the majority to justify his read.

Why would scum claim a power role per se, Fishythefish? I've done the tactic a lot myself, but don't you think there are times claiming VT is safer (such a situation was brought up in SWN II)?

This doesn't quite feel right. The situation he cites is really irrelevant, and I just get a feel of him trying to convince me without committing too much to anything.

There are also a couple of times before he actually votes Raivann that SC gives suspicions on him. SC's play late yesterday seems quite careful and deliberate.

Other bits and pieces I don't like in SC's play; he says he likes Jack's 358 on me, and might switch when I'd responded. I'd already responded, and he never mentions it again; why not?

While attacking mallow, he criticises the latter's setup speculation, and then proceeds to speculate himself; more importantly, there's just nothing scummy about mallow's speculation. I never saw coherent reasoning about the flippancy thing that explained why mallow would have done what he did as scum, and I really don't feel that mallow looks scummy in that sequence.

vote: StrangerCoug

[StrangerCoug]

I don't have the same opinions on all of them anymore. I thought Blackberry was town, but now I'm thinking he is scum because I actually read back on my own with my own opinions. Wouldn't ya know! It's easier for me to play when I actually know what's going on and I'm not waiting for a scum to claim then be lynched!

This is extremely vague. What opinions are you talking about here?

Vote BlackBerry

In my eyes, he's most likely to be scum right now. Him or Stranger.

What makes you more inclined to lynch Blackberry than me?

Wait I just realized something. 9 of us left. arsonist, 2 scum probably, and 6 town. It's potentially mylo. Just throwing that out there.

Actually, with two scum left, we'll still be OK if we lynch, just very likely in kingmaker. Two ways town can win if we mislynch:

1. We lynch Mafia Day 3. Assuming the kills both land on town, we'll be in 1:1:1 prisoner's dilemma. If the arsonist and remaining goon know anything about strategy, they'll kill each other, giving us the win.
   
2. We lynch the arsonist Day 3, get a successful doc protection, and play from there in LYLO.

You're getting worse and worse. You have horrendous cases on Fishythefish (not allowing you a chance to answer him), Blackberry (voting you for calling llamaeatataco his scumbuddy), and Flameaxe (making walls of text and filling them with buzzwords). I do not buy any of those three as legitimate,

and I'm pretty sure there aren't that many here that do either.

The bolded is an appeal to the majority to justify his read.

Conceded. I expected a game with mostly sane people.

Why would scum claim a power role per se, Fishythefish? I've done the tactic a lot myself, but don't you think there are times claiming VT is safer (such a situation was brought up in SWN II)?

This doesn't quite feel right. The situation he cites is really irrelevant, and I just get a feel of him trying to convince me without committing too much to anything.

If the situation I'm talking about is irrelevant, then what's with this sequence of posts?

What do you assume scum would be doing in this situation?

Defending themselves. Trying to persuade people they are town. Attacking people for unrelated reasons. Trying to latch onto other bandwagons. Claiming a power role. Not continuing to do exactly what you are being attacked for.

In addition, why haven't you attacked me for this until now?

There are also a couple of times before he actually votes Raivann that SC gives suspicions on him. SC's play late yesterday seems quite careful and deliberate.

And the problem with thinking before acting is?

Other bits and pieces I don't like in SC's play; he says he likes Jack's 358 on me, and might switch when I'd responded. I'd already responded, and he never mentions it again; why not?

Around when I mentioned #358 is really the only time I've seriously suspected you. Your response to the post is reasonable, and there were scummier targets in my mind, so I moved on.

While attacking mallow, he criticises the latter's setup speculation, and then proceeds to speculate himself; more importantly, there's just nothing scummy about mallow's speculation.

mallowgeno was trying to guess roles here based on practically no in-game info. I never definitively said there were or were not any specific roles in this game; I was relying on experience.

I never saw coherent reasoning about the flippancy thing that explained why mallow would have done what he did as scum, and I really don't feel that mallow looks scummy in that sequence.

What needs clarification? I still think that's a strong case on him.

[Fishythefish]

The situation on SWN II was irrelevant - that's what I was talking about. I don't see why you would mention there. As for not attacking you before, I wasn't really thinking about you. I don't have a problem with thinking before posting- but from your posts I feel like you are trying to get away with voting for Raivann, rather actually thinking he's scum.

Your comment about 358 sits badly because when you made it I'd

already

responded to Jack. If you were reading his points and me and thinking about the situation, it would be very odd to miss that.

mallow's setup speculation:

I'm not ready to accept this claim as true. Why are you outing yourself so early, and why are you suggesting that mallowgeno is a miller?

Claiming cop is only bad if there is a roleblocker. Mafia may have a day roleblocker (weird) but we probably have a doc. Even if we don't, mafia may be too scared to try to kill a cop until the doc has been killed.

It's not necessarily right or productive, but what is scummy about this? You just said "setup speculation! scummy!" - which is more like what can you throw at mallow than genuinely thinking he's scummy.

re: mallow's flippancy. Why do you think he would do what he did as scum?

[Porochaz]

Blackberry - 2 - xvart, mallowgeno
mallowgeno - 1 - StrangerCoug
Anon - 1 - llama
StrangerCoug - 1 - Fishythefish

Not Voting - 4 - Flameaxe, Anon, Budja, Blackberry

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: 11th Sept.

[StrangerCoug]

The situation on SWN II was irrelevant - that's what I was talking about. I don't see why you would mention there.

I was providing an example of a game where scum's safest fakeclaim was VT. The dayvig would lose his ability when he shot somebody that role or a post-restricted townie.

mallow's setup speculation:

I'm not ready to accept this claim as true. Why are you outing yourself so early, and why are you suggesting that mallowgeno is a miller?

Claiming cop is only bad if there is a roleblocker. Mafia may have a day roleblocker (weird) but we probably have a doc. Even if we don't, mafia may be too scared to try to kill a cop until the doc has been killed.

It's not necessarily right or productive, but what is scummy about this? You just said "setup speculation! scummy!" - which is more like what can you throw at mallow than genuinely thinking he's scummy.

I don't know how mallowgeno considers it likely we have a doc. It is not usually town's job to look for a power role—that's something scum more often does. Best case scenario, he sent the scum looking for possible doctor candidates.

re: mallow's flippancy. Why do you think he would do what he did as scum?

Mafia try to get rid of people through any means they can. I refuse to accept that town would say I confirmed flippancy is a tell when it's right there in front of everybody's nose that I denied it. I believe he has been requested several times to clarify, and he has not done so. I love LALiars and, while I accept that it doesn't work 100% of the time, I still find it reliable.

[Blackberry]

I am not sure what to make of Fishy attacking Stranger. This throws me off a bit.

Also - would an arsonist have some sort of Immunity from kills?

[Flameaxe]

I am not sure what to make of Fishy attacking Stranger. This throws me off a bit.

Also - would an arsonist have some sort of Immunity from kills?

They might, they might not. I don't see how it would make a difference either way.

[xvart]

I don't have the same opinions on all of them anymore. I thought Blackberry was town, but now I'm thinking he is scum because I actually read back on my own with my own opinions. Wouldn't ya know! It's easier for me to play when I actually know what's going on and I'm not waiting for a scum to claim then be lynched!

I agree with Flameaxe on this being amazingly "disgusting." Actually read back with his own opinions? Easier to play when he's not waiting for scum to claim and then be lynched? How often does scum claim? You admit to not doing any scumhunting so far? Scummy.

I am not sure what to make of Fishy attacking Stranger. This throws me off a bit.

I'm not sure what to make of you completely ignoring me.

Also - would an arsonist have some sort of Immunity from kills?

Why? Did you try and kill someone last night and that person is alive today? Jack a vig kill and then the arsonist kill?

It's obvious with your 515 and 545 that you are either trying to confuse the town with ridiculous speculation on the NK's or setup fishing; or both. Your 515 makes me think you are the arsonist and trying to play off the arsonist kill as the mafia while your 545 makes me think you are scum trying to figure out why there wasn't a third kill last night. Either way, you're scum, and must die.

xvart.

[mallowgeno]

Relooking at the kill, I think we have a vigilante. Scum would be retarded to shoot Jack because he was so scummy.

[Fishythefish]

@SC: yes, I know what SWN II was supposed to be an example of. But that's a rare and specific situation, and if you don't know that something like that applies you would always assume it doesn't. So using that as an argument for anything is an unnatural way to go about things.

I don't see that saying "there might be a doctor" is going to help the scum, regardless of how likely it is. Even if you think it will send the scum looking for doctors, there's no reason that scum would want to do that (they'd just look for doctors without announcing it). This is pretty weak justification for finding mallow's setup speculation scummy, and makes me think I was right that you were just looking for some mud to sling at mallow.

I struggle to see why mallow would play as he did on the flippancy from any perspective. I think that lying is a scumtell; but when I just don't understand what a player was thinking (as here), my instinct is that it's a nulltell. I don't think the image of mallowscum thinking that his play was a good way to get a mislynch or defend himself rings true.