/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Seraphim]

Alright then.

Confirm Vote: VasudeVa

I was willing to give you a shot to convince me otherwise but if your lazy scum ass doesn't even have the time to defend itself...

[VasudeVa]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

[Seraphim]

I do not need to defend myself

from your scum logic.

because my scum buddies will come and save me no worries.

FTFY.

[VasudeVa]

Oh Seraphim, you so crazy.

[Seraphim]

So I've been told.

[VasudeVa]

Cheer up, it's not like you're the first scum to get caught doing a terribad tunnel on a townie.

[Elmo]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

Counter-point: Yeah, you kind of do.

Reading now..

[VasudeVa]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

Counter-point: Yeah, you kind of do.

Reading now..

I already told him how bad his logic is and how he is scum for it + that soft defense of ooba. I don't think I need to repeat myself.

[Elmo]

Well, the earliest response you gave was, I think,

Seraphim, I agree with around 80% of what you said. However, you are wrong and I am town. I realize that the previous statement is pointless in Mafia

so at this point I'm a tad curious what changed.

[Seraphim]

@VasudeVa: But how does that prove that you're town?

[VasudeVa]

Well, the earliest response you gave was, I think,

Seraphim, I agree with around 80% of what you said. However, you are wrong and I am town. I realize that the previous statement is pointless in Mafia

so at this point I'm a tad curious what changed.

I agreed with him that my behavior could point to scum, but I warned him that he is wrong and his tunnel is bad. He continued to tunnel and got worse. Then ooba soft defense with little to no mention of his reads on ooba was the tipping point.

@Seraphim: It doesn't. You are looking for something that CANNOT be done outside of PRs. The only real way to 100% prove that someone is town is through sane cop investigations, confirmed masonry, reveal upon death etc. Why you are looking for definite proof that I am town is ridiculous. There is no way that you can PROVE someone is town by studying their posts in thread.

You can only postulate someone's alignment by studying their posts in thread and then getting a read on them. However that does NOT prove anything, it only gives you an idea whether they are likelier to be Town or scum by their actions/posts. That is not PROOF, it is EVIDENCE. There is a massive difference between the two.

This constant attack/defense wherein you rely on 'proof' is ridiculous. Stop it. This is not the first time I have attempted to explain this to you.

[Elmo]

I agreed with him that my behavior could point to scum, but I warned him that he is wrong and his tunnel is bad. He continued to tunnel and got worse.

How does him continuing to push arguments that you largely agree with make him "worse"? If he's town and thinks you're scum, I think it's highly unnatural for him to drop it based on you merely telling him he's wrong.

Then ooba soft defense with little to no mention of his reads on ooba was the tipping point.

I can't find much detail on this, but looking through his posts, his interactions with ooba seem fine to me. Can you go into more detail about why this is suspicious? You do appear to have OMGUS'd ooba on an initial reading.

One thing I agree with VV about is this "prove you're town" stuff, that doesn't fly with me.

[Seraphim]

Now you're just arguing semantics.

Fine, then. I'm looking for some sort of

evidence

, some sort of sign that you are TOWN, I want to see some version of scumunting rather than this "lol bandwagon" approach or the "yur logix sucks lul" approach to the game. ooba has already pointed out several other games where you did so. Instead, you're making ridiculous connections, voting anything that moves for reasons you can't even comprehend, let alone articulate, and then telling

me

that

I'm

the ridiculous one?

[Elmo]

Well, that point I don't think is semantics - not sure if I should let Vas speak for himself on that.

[Elmo]

(n.b. Obviously there is the proof/evidence thing which is semantics, but I don't really agree with the broader point.)

[Seraphim]

I can completely understand that but surely you can understand my frustration. I'm really just trying to get some sort of defense out of him besides attacks calling my case crap. If you evaluate his play from a purely reactionary standpoint(which VV claims is his best play), VV seems to be more interested in attacking his attackers rather than actually proving why my case "sucks" and then using previously mentioned "case suckage" to launch an attack.

[Elmo]

I agree, his defence is (at best) very poorly articulated at this point.

[VasudeVa]

Why, yes of course I'm interested in people who are attacking me! Why, I've played like lynchbait this entire game! That's my fault and I even admitted it to you(via Elmo's quote somewhere up there.).

However: I know I'm town. I know scum like to attack lynchbait. I'm lynchbait. Therefore, people who attack me are likely to be scum. Hence, attacking me is a scumtell. Also, that's pretty reactive playstyle. Aren't I consistent!

ooba keeps attacking me with meta, despite having recently completed meta that dissolves his earlier meta attack therefore making me suspicious of his lack of an open mind(which I saw from his town play.). You keep attacking me because you are scum and don't want to flip flop. I was suspicious of Herod D1 because he was questioning me, but now have a good Town read off him. Etc. whatelse.

Please tell your scumbuddies to attack me too, please.

[VasudeVa]

I agree, his defence is (at best) very poorly articulated at this point.

*cough* sig *cough*

[mith]

Papa Zito: If you have a compelling case against ooba, make it. At the moment, it's hard to evaluate both your case against ooba (not knowing what it is), and it's also hard to evaluate your motivations/thought processes.

Die DGB die, etc.

(My brain is mush tonight; going back and forth on the Seraphim/VasudeVa argument, and I feel like I ought to have a better read on it by now, since it has kinda taken over the past few pages.)

[mith]

EBWOP: At the moment, it's hard to evaluate both your case against ooba (not knowing what it is), and

it's also hard to evaluate

your motivations/thought processes.

Sigh. Brain mush.

[Elmo]

Vas: Mmm, I'm not sure the language barrier is the issue. Also, please answer my questions?

However: I know I'm town. I know scum like to attack lynchbait. I'm lynchbait. Therefore, people who attack me are likely to be scum. Hence, attacking me is a scumtell.

By lynchbait, you mean you play in a way that can easily be painted as suspicious by scum, but would not

actually

be thought suspicious by town? If that's true, why would town ever agree with scum attacking you - how does that work?

For my money, I pretty firmly believe Seraph is townish; I'm not sure what you make of that.

[Ellibereth]

Sera's obvtown. Why are people voting him.

[Elmo]

It's a win-win situation for scum. Have VV act in a VI-ish manner. Players dismiss him as VI. He isn't a strong player anyway, so if he comes under heavy scrutiny, they can bus him easily. Also, if there's a lot of noise about VV in the thread, that might help overshadow the other scum in the topic and make VV a more likely vig target.

It's incredible speculation and there's no real basis behind it besides my speculation.

That whole scenario is so absurd if can only come from scum feeling the burn of being unable to get a VV lynch.

He's like Wile E Coyote; he's lost sight of his goal which is to eat the Road Runner for his sustenance. Now, he just wants to blow him up into smithereens.

That's how scum-Seraphim has become with VV. It's all becoming clear to me now.

VOTE: Seraphim

lol, very smooth. VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[ooba]

I think this Ooba wagon has more legs. Rhinox's 929 is a good point,

Zito's point is good

. ISOing ooba his scumhunting seems pretty lazy.

UNVOTE: DGB
VOTE: ooba

Zito never explained his point at all. Can't see how you agree its good.

Vas, given a choice between meta and a player whose blatantly sticking to his lies because the others are too lazy to click a link and see you're lying - It's quite clear which I'd go with.

Alright. I've done a meta study on SB now. If you are as interested in metas as I am, I'll provide the links. I studied two samples of each of her town and her scum games: One win and one loss each. Mostly done in ISO. By all means, feel free to check my observations. Before you accuse me of reading metas to seem town, please I challenge you to read these in ISO as well. See if my obvservations match yours. I am quite objective in my meta studies.

Umineko- SB Scumgame, Won.
Dodgeball, Scum-Lost
British Comedy Mafia, Town, Lost
Open Source Mafia. Town, Won

My observations:
General Behavior:
-> Lurks, V/LA's alot
-> Prone to plagiarizing cases, but most probably due to her lurker nature.

As Scum:
-> She is very defensive. She seems to be over-defending herself if she is scum.
-> Long posts. Also, her scumhunt posts are long and detailed.
-> Tunnel visioned as hell. I do not see her questioning people and making sure of her suspicions.
-> Fewer "I'm still here!" posts. Every post has content.
-> Not opportunistic. Makes it so that her cases against people are as strong as she can make them.

As Town:
-> Provides metas.
-> Her defense as town is are more concise. Instead of replying to every point made by the opposition, she answers to them in a shorter fashion rather than by a point by point rebuttal seen in her scum game.
-> More "I'm still here!" posts.
-> Considerably less tunnel visioned than her scum game.

Conclusions:
She is being very consistent with her townie game. The only inconsistent thing I've seen was her unwillingness to provide her meta to me. But I can see why that happened. It was rather rude of me to accuse her that she is badscum.

If she was scum, her case on me would be bulletproof and angrier. But nah, the vote post she did was not as good as her vote posts as scum. She would also rebut my points against her in a post by post manner. Not in this game. As far as I'm concerened: She is town(until she gives me reason to think otherwise)

Explain how this is laziness.