NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Lowell]

I'm glad he likes attention, but I still dont' see wraith as scum. I'd like to see a little more action on the poro wagon, instead of just letting it die down while we all pretend to have opinions on wraith.

[Robbnva]

I have add and no impulse control, I post what's on my mind

not sure what you are hinting at with mr thinking before I post but the logic behind my posts make sense to me

[Xite91]

I have add and no impulse control, I post what's on my mind

not sure what you are hinting at with mr thinking before I post but the logic behind my posts make sense to me

but you don't stop to think about the logic behind other people's post. And that's a big part of the game.
[lifetimerant]I know it's hard, I have ADD as well. I had to overcome the same things I'm sure you're working on, but this game has actually helped quite a bit with my ADD, because I force myself to focus on it. Trust me, you can do it.[/lifetimerant]

[Robbnva]

Isn't it possible that we interpret people's logic differently?

Like the wraith comment about the mislych train and all of those posts TO ME seems like he is doing it hoping to get people to change their mind, you think all of a sudden is a power role or something

I tend to be skeptical cause I've been burned before. 1 game on another site I had info I was sure he was maf, he convinced everyone but me that he was doc. He won the game and he was GF

[Xite91]

Isn't it possible that we interpret people's logic differently?

Like the wraith comment about the mislych train and all of those posts TO ME seems like he is doing it hoping to get people to change their mind, you think all of a sudden is a power role or something

I tend to be skeptical cause I've been burned before. 1 game on another site I had info I was sure he was maf, he convinced everyone but me that he was doc. He won the game and he was GF

But not every game is the same, and if he keeps it up, we can lynch him before MyLo or LyLo, if he's still alive by then. I seriously don't think he's scum, and seeing he has no experience with PR's I can see him being one and not knowing how to play it. (My first time as a vig -my first PR- I got lynched D1 because I played terribly compared to other times I'd played because I was looking at everyone like "well, if they don't lynch him, I can just vig him tonight." so I wasn't putting as much effort into scumhunting as I normally do, and it made me look scummy the way I was talking/playing.)
I'm just saying, his meta does not add up, and honestly rereading his ISO I don't think he's mafia just yet. The one thing me and Gorrad and now you already discussed to all hell and back is the only thing that would convince me otherwise, and it's really not enough to convince me at this point, epecially considering how scummy you are in my eyes, especially because of how much you suddenly started to push this wagon.
(IIRC you didn't REALLY start pushing it until I started saying how scummy you were, before then you just said he was a good lynch and sheeping others on it... but I'll have to go back and check tonight for that, although even if it was before or after that I do remember it being sudden.)

[Shanba]

I'm not going to lie, I'm struggling a little with finding motivation this game. Luckily, I find that picking fights is often a way to get myself more involved, and hence the fact that the next move on my planned itinerary for the day was to go after porochaz is a major boon.

I was hoping to draw some kind of reaction from Prozac before I went after him proper but he seems to have let the whole edit thing distract him from the game and the only response I got was a flippant remark anyway, but never mind.

Prozac's response to bunnylover struck me as odd, because bunnylover was hardly the only player in the game to have been doing the same tells he commented on. I'd already noticed hiphop and wanted to put him under some pressure, and forming a wagon is better at doing that than an isolated vote, so I tried to coerce prozac into voting with me - and sure enough, he obliges. But then he unvotes and votes frank barely much after with the excuse that hiphop had started to contribute. I still don't see hiphop's contribution there as particularly useful - though his most recent piece of contribution has eased my worries about him somewhat - but the weird thing is that he doesnt go back to bunnylover. Presumably he moved over to hiphop only because bunnylover was worse - so what has changed between the vote for bunnylover and the vote for frank? As far as I can tell, nothing - or at least, nothing that prozac ever explains. I know he was already suspicious of Frank, so I'm not too worried about the Frank vote in particular, it's just I can't follow his thought process on the bunnylover - hiphop - Frank series of votes. Has bunnylover started contributing? I don't think so. When I can't follow someone's thought processes, that often means the cases they are making are in bad faith.

Similarly, his reaction to the DP cop claim was off. To me, I fairly strongly believed at that point that DP was a townie fakeclaiming given singer's post. It was that or actually cop. I've seen townies pull that (idiotic) gambit before, where they strongly believe a player is fakeclaiming and counterclaim to get them lynched, and I've also seen power roles counterclaim. But I've almost never seen scum counterclaim a power role on day 1. Prozac's been around the block, he knows that too - so why is he implying in his posts that he thinks DP is scum? Again, I can't really follow his thought processes.

And then he revotes hiphop today. The problem I have with this is that yesterday the implication behind his posts is that the reason he switched from hiphop to frank was not because frank started looking scummier but because hiphop started looking townier. But then he revotes him again today. What's the deal?

So that's why I'm voting Prozac. There was also a section about his lack of contribution today - but actually, he's apparently been on LA practically the whole game day, so I guess that's slightly more excusable.

I have a growing suspicion of Gorrad that's working down the same lines.

[Robbnva]

Oh you don't have to check it was when this wagon started to fall apart but it is more due to not having a good reason to unvote, I still suspect him as scum

I have others I suspect but not enough to change my vote just yet

[Wraith]

I'm going to put out a summary post of my suspicions real quick:

-I'm pretty certain Mysterio is scum

-I believe one of Gorrad or Robbnva is scum and the other is a buddied townie. At the moment I'm more inclined toward RobbnvaScum, but out of my 3-4 top suspects none of them are the "dominant scum partner" personality that is always seen. Gorrad could possibly be that "DSP" because of how forward he is with his tunneling

-I'm suspicious of Prozac. I think someone said earlier that he has the personality of a Mafia Godfather which I think is plausible. He's been staying in the background while posting tunnels against top suspects that seem somewhat overly non-commital to me. His posts brinigng up my meta are plausibly town trying to prevent a mislynch but it is equally plausible that he is scum distancing himself from a mislynch that two of his partners are on.

[Wraith]

To clarify on the "Dominant Scum Partner" personality I referred to:

In almost every game I've read or played in, there is always at least one "Dominant Scum Personality" while the rest are either less experienced/skilled partners or fade into the background on purpose. I'll use my play in Newbie 965 as an example. In that game, I was the DSP, where I actively posted "scumhunting" and made cases convincing enough to cause two mislynches. A good DSP will usually read as townie until either two things occur:

1. He successfully busses a partner and gains major town cred
2. The series of mislynches he orchestrated turns the town against him

The SSP (Submissive Scum Partner(s)) will usually sit on a fence and try to seem as convincingly "confused town following the scumhunter's lead" as possible to avoid suspicion. They'll seem like reckless townies who bought the DSP's convincing mislynch cases.

[Robbnva]

how do you differentiate between a SSP who follows leads vs an actual confused townie following a lead? (there are times when both do apply)

and early on(day 1 and 2) how do you tell the difference?

[Robbnva]

and I have just agreed with gorrad on a few posts he made today, this =/= buddying

[Wraith]

That's the problem - it's rather difficult to do, definitively at least, until endgame. However, once you weed out the lurkers who actually aren't doing anything and the actual pro-town scumhunters, you can usually make accurate conclusions as to who they are. Like I said, SSPs are usually overly non-commital, overcautious, try to remain inconspicious, and often don't attempt to make any meaningful contribution beyond "he makes good points that's where my votes going." In short, an SSP attempts to join a bandwagon "under the radar" and make it look like he voted that wagon for a valid reason.

[Robbnva]

ok I decided to look back at the mafia kill, he said his top votes for scum were wraith, hiphop, and bunny. so I start with Hiphop

#1 - vote no explanation, we all suspect wraith as scum (well some have changed their mind) so this could be a bus vote to look like a joke (one of the points I made earlier scum like to do sometimes)
#6 - I want a bandwagon but not against me, let's both find somebody we can bandwagon together(this is basically what he is saying)
#7 - 1st part irelevant, 2nd part - of course him dying doesn't help his win condition 3rd part - throwing in he can help town win and asks Kise if he is scum - 2 and 3 both seem sketchy to me
#8 - it isn't odd for someone to not have an opinion in 8 pages, especially if the first couple is confirm/rvs posts. 2nd part I sort of agree with his point, but everyone thinks I am scummy for it so that makes him equally scummy
#9 - responds to Xite about him bussing dana by saying, well dana needs to be scum for this to be true.
#10 - just a weird post, not sure what to think
#11 - bunch of topics covered, kind of muddied for me personally to get a feel. the unvote of cop seems right and also throwing in info of another game but doesn't post a link to see if what he said is actually true
#12 - seems to be trying to get town cred by telling frank lynching a claimed cop is bad day 1(like it isn't obvious already)
#13 - changes UA's post from scum wants to kill claimed to cop to scum wants to lynch claimed cop(scum would rather kill a claimed cop instead of lynching cause it is less obvious who dun it) but than he says he agrees with the corrected post. *** this one strikes me as very scummy***
#15 - the quote from Poorchaz is very odd cause i don't see hip hop being useful at all
#17 - did hip hop in a round about way admit he is bussing is partner? 2nd part dana says hiphop is posting better and hiphop calls him a liar (cause he really hasn't) 3rd part, he seems to be shocked that anyone could get a town read off him, like hiphop is trying to look scummy
#18 - just weird in general, features the last post from Orochi
#19 - says wraith is not the lynch, he has someone else in mind and will gather info, but in post 21 he votes wraith without posting the info he was going to drum up
#23 - with his vote still on wrait, he posts his top scummy people and wraith isn't on it, he than unvotes wraith. he seems to buddy up to Xite a tad and later he asks if someone is anti-town does that make them scum(umm yeah it does)

I think all of this is scummy but I am going to sleep on it, I may be changing my vote in the morning.

good night

[UltimaAvalon]

Gorrad and Robbvna have been using more and more circuitous logic in their case against me, culminating in:

going off what gorrad said, trying to get town points would be the same as trying to look town, which is scummy

According to this, everyone is scum, because scumhunting can be classified as "trying to look town." As well as "trying to get lynched." For all you know I'm a Jester. "As well as defending oneself" because apparently town don't do that.

So you see Xite's flawed logic too

Hey, guess what- TOWN DOESN'T NEED TOWNPOINTS. Town needs other people's scumpoints. Scum need townpoints. A townie goes into a game of mafia saying 'Hey, let's find the scum'. A scum goes into a game of mafia saying 'Hey, I'm gonna try to not be lynched'.

I don't see how yall read Gorrad's post and came to that conclusion. Scumhunting is Scumhunting, no matter if you're Town or Scum. Scumhunting is not "Trying To Look Town". Trying to look Town is posting in a manner that appears townish, but is actually mostly fluff.

kinda like 90% of my posts.*

*including this one

[UltimaAvalon]

#13 - changes UA's post from scum wants to kill claimed to cop to scum wants to lynch claimed cop(scum would rather kill a claimed cop instead of lynching cause it is less obvious who dun it) but than he says he agrees with the corrected post. *** this one strikes me as very scummy***

This doesn't even make any sense. How does agreeing with the corrected post after he corrected it look scummy? He's the one who made the correction. (regardless of ninja)

[Robbnva]

#13 - changes UA's post from scum wants to kill claimed to cop to scum wants to lynch claimed cop(scum would rather kill a claimed cop instead of lynching cause it is less obvious who dun it) but than he says he agrees with the corrected post. *** this one strikes me as very scummy***

This doesn't even make any sense. How does agreeing with the corrected post after he corrected it look scummy? He's the one who made the correction. (regardless of ninja)

ok I misred the correction, my bad

[UltimaAvalon]

in, fact, a lot of your iso on hiphop lacks context.

#1 was his random vote.
#6 This occurs during the thin line in which the rsv is trying to turn serious but hasnt quite gotten there yet
#7 answering non-serious attacks and suggestions in a semi-serious fashion
#8 yes, this is the main reason for all the initial hiphop hate, as far as I can tell. "This is scummy because I was called scummy for agreeing with it" is rather odd though. Do you still agree with it? Do

you

think this post is scummy in spite of other calling you out for agreeing with it?
#12 it wasn't obvious to Frank (and a couple of others if memory serves.) The entire purpose of 12-16 is informing Frank why his position was bad, and waiting to see his reaction.
#17 You skip over some of the post's more important bits (calling xite out for Day 1 setup speculation) in favor of throwing dirt on him. Well done.
#18 Weird how? This was another good post. And if this really is Orochi's last post then I think I need to take a closer look at hi-oh wait he's been replaced fuck this game.
#19 You're right that he never came forward with his fore-mentioned "case", but his reason for voting Wraith is a lot better than most others.
#23 He gave his reasoning for unvoting though, his reaction to the Fake Daykill. Also, how is he buddying to Xite, when he agrees with him once and disagrees with him once in that post?

[Robbnva]

yeah so I suck at ISO, I have never been able to do this cause on my other site you can't isolate posts by people, I'm still learning.

[Robbnva]

ok my daughter is finally back to sleep, which means I can go back to sleep

l8r

[hiphop]

Will get a post up tomorrow.

[Xite91]

Will get a post up tomorrow.

good, why don't you add your case on your mystery player and what you got from the wagon yesterday to it?

[Benmage]

Been working like mad, will check in later.

[danakillsu]

@ UltimaAvalon
I find it funny that you're admitting to posting a lot of fluff. Because it fact, most of this page is fluff. I didn't get much out of the hiphop case, and that's the only meat really here. Let's all try to post things that have more of an effect on the game, because I'm finding it hard to comment on recent posts.

[danakillsu]

This is so ironic. I'm really starting to see dana/robbie, and since I feel dana can't be scum without wraith, maybe he's back in that list too. But really Wraith needs to post more before I make that decision

Why is it ironic and why are you seeing this as a scumteam?
I think you're just mad because I pointed out your scumminess in derailing the Wraith wagon, voting for Wraith again, and unvoting him again. Wishy-washiness on the main wagon is extremely scummy.

First, the first time I got off of it was to keep my gambit alive-ish. Then I got back on because wraith was still my top suspect and lynch choice, then I read his ISO and decided he was just bad town, and honestly robbie is the perfect lynch for today.

It's ironic because this was your list

My opinion on walls of text.
Gorrad: town
Xite: scummy
Robbnva: neutral
Mysterio: town
hiphop: scummy
If the Wraith wagon actually does fall apart, I would definitely vote for hiphop or Xite, preferably hiphop, since Xite hasn't been too scummy before this whole thing.

gorrad: attacking wraith
me: no longer attacking wraith, I got scummy when I stopped attacking wraith
robbie: not really pushing or against the wraith wagon
myst: voting wraith without question
hiphop: under a lot of attention for his blatant wagoning "techniques" so safe to put him there
Then, if people stop attacking wraith, I would vote for hiphop, or xite, hiphop because he's the next likely candidate, and xite because she's on her way to being a likely candidate.

Honestly, like I said, if you were scum, then wraith is no doubt a scumbuddy, and vice versa, so I can see you really trying to bus him, but setting yourself up for something else in case the lynch doesn't go through
It was just an ironic post if you look at the motivation behind it.

LOOK AT THE WAY YOU TRY TO DESCRIBE YOURSELF IN THE FIRST PART! ARE YOU SERIOUS?
I don't care where the heck your vote is right now. If all it took was a reading of Wraith's iso to make you flip-flop on him AGAIN, then there's something wrong with you. I find it much more likely that you are just his scumbuddy.
And I laughed at you trying to make everything revolve around wraith in the second part. You couldn't relate hiphop to it, so you just had to say, "oh, he's playing it safe". And strangely enough, Robbnva is VOTING for Wraith right now, so I'm pretty sure he's pushing his wagon, aren't you?

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 2.12

Wraith [7] (Gorrad, Mysterio, Benmage, ConfidAnon, danakillsu, Rob, Bunnylover)

Mysterio [3] (Flinter, Singersigner, @.@)
Prozac [3] (Shanba, Kise, Lowell)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)
dana [1] (Reck)
Flinter [1] (Wickedestjr)
Robbnva [1] (Xite)

Not Voting [2] (My Milked Eek, Wraith)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

Deadline:

Not currently in place. IM THINKING ABOUT IT THOUGH. COUGH COUGH.