New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Zorblag]

@mothrax, out of curiosity, what was the case you think that I presented about tubby216 recently? You said that and your own re-read have left you willing to hammer but I don't think that I've said anything recently that I hadn't said earlier.

@Tazaro, OK, I've looked over the game you linked. I thought that you were trying to justify suspicion of claims based on someone making a claim that fooled you in the past but I see that diddin was in fact telling the truth with his claim. To some degree I don't mind your suspicion of him there (it was a bit of an odd role, neighbor jailkeeper) but the circumstances surrounding his claim are very similar to the circumstances here in that it just didn't make much sense for him to be lying about what he did (and low and behold, he wasn't.) In that game he claimed an easily verifiable role (in that case when when he was at L-1.) That's the appropriate thing for town to do and not a good move for scum to fake (when doctor would have been so much easier as a fake claim in that situation.) In this game we've got a pair of claimed masons who have been noticeably acting as a team since day one really. I know that you picked up the connection and others did as well. Further they claimed in what was largely a no pressure situation. For them to be scum they'd have to have been either planning this from the start or just be really bad at hiding connections between them (and I can't think of a single instance of scum being that obvious with their connections in all the games of mafia that I've played.)

If you're going to take anything away from the other game that you're citing it should be that when a claim doesn't make sense for scum it's not a good idea to think that it's likely to be scum making it. Instead you're citing your past behavior to excuse bad judgment calls now. I've got no problem with you keeping the option that the mason claims are fake in mind but I do have a problem with you saying that it's not far-fetched and is SQUARELY (emphasis yours) in the realm of possibility. For the mason claims to be fake as we see them risks linking a large portion of the scum team together needlessly. If scum had any reason to think that there might be another killing role in the game when the claim was made (and in a game this size they'd by default have a reason as well as possibly knowing that they had a kill blocked by Oso at some point) we should have further reduced chances of a fake claim here. It feels like you're going out of your way to justify keeping suspicion on players who should not at this time be worth mentioning at all which just reeks of trying to discredit probably town power roles for no good reason. If this were LyLo then it might be worth bringing up as something to be concerned about but right now there's no good reason to make a point of saying that you're not interested in calling anyone probably town.

The fact that tubby216 seems to be going in the same direction certainly doesn't make me feel any better about him but at this point I do not see good town motivation for your actions.

@everyone, my plan at this point is to hammer tubby216 tomorrow unless someone gives me a good reason not to. I largely have a set of opinions I'm comfortable with about the players in the game and at this point I think that everyone else should be more settled than I am given how much I've missed. I should be about tomorrow afternoon (PDT) to do it; if you don't want that to happen then give me a reason not to by then.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Tazaro]

It doesn't upset me that you doubt my claim, but could you specify why? We could have been confirmed by now, one of us probably should have died already and maybe we didn't because of Oso's protection.

The thing is, the only one who knows that is Oso.

[Toogeloo]

I think no one really cares to stop you Zorblag, hammer him, we will see how good we are doing, and go from there.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, it doesn't look as though anyone has anything else vital to say before the day ends and nothing in his recent behavior is giving my any reason to doubt this is the right lynch.

VOTE: tubby216

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[tubby216]

tahnk god,,

good luck town and still look at taz more plz!!!!!!!

[Porochaz]

Tubby was a lab tech. Tubby was not happy. Tubby found himself spiraling into a black whole. Tubby found the odd prozac helped him relax. However tubby does not steal. Tubby was always a legitamite human being and lived his life abiding by the law.

tubby216 - vanilla townie - Lynched Day 4

[Porochaz]

Night lasts 72 hours.

[Porochaz]

Oso was in charge of daycare for the whole building, which they had unfortunately put on the same floor as the pharmaceuticals. Because children and drugs apparently mix. As the drugs division starts earlier than everyone else though, there were no kids in the nursery, which meant it could be used as a good prison. The door could be locked by Oso every night and the colourful toys would distract the chemists from trying to escape. However nursery privileges ended tonight as Oso was found with a toy train rammed down his neck.

Oso - Town Jailkeeper - Died Night 3

[Porochaz]

Day will last 3 weeks, with 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

[Tazaro]

We really need to hear more input from Mr. Sandman than what he's been giving in this game.

[Zorblag]

At this point if there are three scum left (and I don't have a good reason to think that shouldn't be the case given the roles we've seen) we're now in LyLo. It's almost certainly time for a mass claim and that should happen before any other conversation so that we don't give the scum any more access to our expectations than they already have when they're making their claims. I propose a quick vote for who to claim first (no actual votes at this point; if we are in LyLo no one should be voting until they're ready to end the day) and then we popcorn through everyone past that. Claims should be your role and any actions you've done up till now in the game. Discussion of the claims should wait until the process is done unless someone has role/action information that someone must be scum in which case we should stop the claim process and resolve that.

If anyone doesn't want to do this then I'll ask you to give your reasons and we can talk about that right quick. Assuming no one objects my preference would be for mothrax to claim first.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mothrax]

Im willing to claim first. But I will wait for others to weigh in on this situation.

[Tazaro]

Well, dealing with a LyLo situation brings my mind back to my first newbie game, and in that game, the issue of who would must likely be scumbuddies was very useful, though the hammer vote was wrong because my partner Leech fooled the decider.

[Zorblag]

@Tazaro, we can potentially talk about buddies in a bit but right now, if we think that we can lose if we make a bad choice for the lynch, the first thing that we want to do is get all the information we can on the table. Once we've hit the stage where we have to make the right choice we want to be as informed as possible. The reason that we don't want to talk about anything else while we're doing that is that it doesn't help members of the town in any way if they're just going to be sharing the information that they have whereas the scum, who will be faking their information, are helped by other talk.

Do you object to a mass claim at this point? If not, who would you like to have claim first?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Tazaro]

Mass claim is a good idea; if mothrax is willing to do so, he might as well claim first.

[Toogeloo]

Glad toon was covering me and what not >_> ... I've been away for a few days because my comp has been down.

Toon and I discussed (well had a single back and forth) Oso last night about how he had lived for so long, so him dying last night probably saved us from mislynching. I was fairly certain I was going to be the dead one today. Mass Claiming probably isn't going to do us any good today to be honest. We are still in a tight position of too much anti-town play by pretty much everyone.

Really, I could forsee just about anyone left as scum other than Toon, and of the 5 of you others, 3 are probably scum.

Stef
moth
Tazaro
Zorblag
Sandman
The Masons

So before we decide to Mass Claim, let's do some discussion. Everyone give their thoughts on all 5 of those players (the 5 others that are not you on the list). Let's break this down systematically before claims begin.

[Toogeloo]

So starting (without looking back for now, analysis later) just minor thoughts:

Stef:

Has been another lurker since Day 1, attaching his vote and disappearing. He and Benmage cross voted several times, but was it an attempt at distancing?

moth:

Very possible that he is scum, though I discounted it because of voting pattern and tunneling.

Tazaro:

PJ built a case on Tazaro and then quickly withdrew it after rereading his play.

Zorblag:

I meta'd that Zorblag was probably going to be replaced during Night 3 because Town might have been hitting a do or die scenario. Now he seems to be directing town more frequently.

Sandman:

Shared many of the same thoughts I had during the beginning of the game, but still ended up being on every mislynch.


If I had to guess right now, I would say Sandman and Stef are scum based solely on play. Picking a third would be tougher.

[Zorblag]

@Toogeloo, if we're going to mass claim we should do it before discussion. Discussion at this point only helps scum determine what claims they want to make whereas town don't have to worry about such things, we just tell the truth.

What advantage for town do you think there is to be gained through discussion before a claim at this point? Unless you don't think that the mass claim should happen I don't see where you're coming from.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Toogeloo]

@Toogeloo, if we're going to mass claim we should do it before discussion. Discussion at this point only helps scum determine what claims they want to make whereas town don't have to worry about such things, we just tell the truth.

What advantage for town do you think there is to be gained through discussion before a claim at this point? Unless you don't think that the mass claim should happen I don't see where you're coming from.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'm not asking for anything other than opinion on character. The idea is to formulate the order of claims. The person with the most suspicion should claim first, but basis for that suspicion also gives insight of the accuser. The most suspicious should claim first simply because they are forced to choose a claim before the more trusted players do.

[Toogeloo]

Anything is arguable at this point. You could be scum because you are demanding moth's claim first; get the remaining town to claim and then you can base your own claims around it. (ala, oh look no one claimed Cop, I can claim that I have innocent scans on the following players and force a mislynch for the win!)

[Zorblag]

@Toogeloo, I support people giving thought to who they'd like to claim first but even knowing what the current suspicions look like help the scum figure out what to do in terms of claim (and who to ask to claim next.) At this point everyone should be able to look at the game that's happened on it's own and come up with their first choice without talking about it. Information control is useful here just like it is throughout the game. The scum start with an information advantage over the town (they know who scum is and the town doesn't.) Once the game starts the town should both be looking for scum tells and trying to determine who is and isn't scum as well as trying to control the flow of information in a way that benefits the town. There are certainly times when it's useful for town to reveal information (before being lynched, when we're doing a mass claim) because then the information needs to be shared so that it won't be lost. Most of the time sharing information does more to add to the mafia's pool of information than it does the town and it should not be shared.

It's pretty clear at this point that you don't agree with me about when the proper times to reveal information occur. Your entire mindset of putting together unnecessary claims over the course of the game so that the town can piece together the puzzle and figure out who scum is makes that obvious. I'm pretty sure that you're town at this point so I think this is just a difference in approaches to the game but that doesn't make me think that you're any more correct than I would otherwise.

I strongly object to sharing information outside the claim at this time. The potential advantage in claim order that we could gain does not offset the detriment accrued by giving scum insight to our current suspicions. I strongly encourage you to drop this conversation until after a mass claim has taken place.

*edit before post* I am not demanding that mothrax claim first and you should know that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I've said. I've said that he's my preference for a first claim. Whoever the town thinks is most suspicious at this time should go first; for me that means that I'd like mothrax to claim before anyone else.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Porochaz]

Letting you know stef has had some problem getting on ms. And is technically v/la but seeing if I can sort it.

[Tazaro]

Are we waiting for Mr. Sandman to weigh in on the situation?

[Mr.Sandman]

I'd like to request now, that when there's any intent to hammer from any day here on in, deadline permitting, every player is given the chance to speak.

I think we should mass claim and this would be my preferred order

moth
Stef
Tazaro
Zorblag

[Tazaro]

I think that if most of us are suggesting that moth claim first, then it would only be fair if he decided who claims after he does.