Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[Socrates]

Socrates, do you think standardized national testing (SAT/ACT/AP) for English is legitimate?

Nope. It makes my blood boil. Sometimes it weirds out my friends with just how angry it makes me.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry I didn't make my vote clear, point still stands however.

DH, I disagree with you vehemently and passionately. Being willing to follow other players when they put forward strong arguments is a skill more people should learn, but this is a playstyle thing. I can link you to a game where I have done this as town before, if you want.

First off, people should learn to keep their OPTIONS open and take everything in. To just sheep those who put good arguments out is a recipe for being made to look like a puppet after said person flips town, if they are town. You realize that's how scum who are actually competent at the game are able to make town think that they're lynching someone who deserves it...like 3 or 4 times in a row, right?

Second, I'm not interested in "what you did in the past when you were town". That was then, this was now. I was watching Casino Royale last night, the part where Mathis tells Le Chiffre what his tell is so that he is able to exploit Bond by faking the tell and steal his chipstack. Just because you do something one time doesn't mean it's always going to be the case.

[Socrates]

Sorry I didn't make my vote clear, point still stands however.

DH, I disagree with you vehemently and passionately. Being willing to follow other players when they put forward strong arguments is a skill more people should learn, but this is a playstyle thing. I can link you to a game where I have done this as town before, if you want.

First off, people should learn to keep their OPTIONS open and take everything in. To just sheep those who put good arguments out is a recipe for being made to look like a puppet after said person flips town, if they are town. You realize that's how scum who are actually competent at the game are able to make town think that they're lynching someone who deserves it...like 3 or 4 times in a row, right?

I disagree, but this is something more suited to mafia discussion than here.

Second, I'm not interested in "what you did in the past when you were town". That was then, this was now. I was watching Casino Royale last night, the part where Mathis tells Le Chiffre what his tell is so that he is able to exploit Bond by faking the tell and steal his chipstack. Just because you do something one time doesn't mean it's always going to be the case.

Thats fine, but the point is that I can indisputably prove that I believe what I am saying, and while that doesn't make me town, how can you seriously claim that it makes me more likely scum?

[DemonHybrid]

It was the context.

You're saying "You don't know whether or not Parama is town and you aren't sucking up to him" after agreeing with him and admitting to sheeping (which would only make sense and would be smart if Parama was confirmed town).

This does two things for you:

1. It makes you seem like you ARE keeping all of your options open by saying "Parama COULD be town or scum, I dunno"...
2. ...but then you say "...but he's a good scumhunter, so I'm going to do what he says." Hello, townie points, my name is Socrates!

You're agreeing 100% with the person that makes the most sense without further reasoning, but want to be regarded as the person who's keeping their options open...AFTER the fact, no less.

[Socrates]

It was the context.

You're saying "You don't know whether or not Parama is town and you aren't sucking up to him" after agreeing with him and admitting to sheeping (which would only make sense and would be smart if Parama was confirmed town).

This does two things for you:

1. It makes you seem like you ARE keeping all of your options open by saying "Parama COULD be town or scum, I dunno"...
2. ...but then you say "...but he's a good scumhunter, so I'm going to do what he says." Hello, townie points, my name is Socrates!

You're agreeing 100% with the person that makes the most sense without further reasoning, but want to be regarded as the person who's keeping their options open...AFTER the fact, no less.

Good job, you have applied a scum motivation to my actions. What you have utterly failed to do is prove that that is more likely to be true than the reasoning that I have provided.

That makes it NULL.

I'm growing gradually more and more paranoid that DH is chainsawing on behalf of WOMC. I want to hear from some other people.

[DemonHybrid]

I actually fail to see more reasoning from you other than "I think Parama's a good scumhunter, so I sheeped him. And I'm not sucking up to him. And he could be either town or scum."

So once you actually provide reasoning that is more likely to be true than what I posted, it's indeed scummy to me.

[Socrates]

I actually fail to see more reasoning from you other than "I think Parama's a good scumhunter, so I sheeped him. And I'm not sucking up to him. And he could be either town or scum."

So once you actually provide reasoning that is more likely to be true than what I posted, it's indeed scummy to me.

*headdesk*

I'm done with this, because you are clearly not interested in actually listening to what I am saying.

If anyone else has any questions, I will gladly answer them, but DH is officially on [ignore] for now.

[DemonHybrid]

Christ.

"I think Parama's a good scumhunter, so I sheeped him. And I'm not sucking up to him. And he could be either town or scum."

Is that not exactly what you said?

[DemonHybrid]

Christ.

"I think Parama's a good scumhunter, so I sheeped him. And I'm not sucking up to him. And he could be either town or scum."

Is that not exactly what you said?

EBWOP: Meaningwise, not word-wise, of course.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Day 1 iso:

Hmph, seems that RVS might be getting over with rather quickly. No matter.

VOTE: xvart

If his performance in our last game is any indication, RVS might be my only opportunity to vote him the entire game.

RVS blah blah blah

Vote: Xine

for totally legitimate reasons.

Some history there maybe? If that isn't a total joke, the story behind it might be good before we really get into the meat of the game.

History blah blah blah

..

Hmph, seems that RVS might be getting over with rather quickly. No matter.

VOTE: xvart

If his performance in our last game is any indication, RVS might be my only opportunity to vote him the entire game.

@Oso: Why would you want to get an opportunity to vote for him?
..

A bit of joking really. Last game we played together he managed to live until endgame as a claimed Doc in another Mini with another protective role already confirmed on the dead list. Actually pretty impressive in how town his play was (he was town as it turns out) and how he remained unlynched simply because of that, when anyone else in that game (me included) would have been lynched out of hand in his position as probably lying scum.

History blah blah blah

That means:

CES: Two bandwagon votes. No relevant game material/discussion.
Lowell: One vote. No relevant game material/discussion.
Oso: One vote, one explanation. No relevant game material/discussion.
xvart: One vote, no explanation. No relevant game material/discussion.

Game Opened: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:58 am
Quoted Post: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:07 pm
This Post: See Time Stamp above.

By my count, that is about 8 hours. A hair over from game open to your post. Please, for future reference tell just me how often I should post (in minutes and seconds please) in order to satisfy you.


P.S- I do reserve the right to go at least 8 hours between posts so as to get some sleep occasionally. But if it hoses you up too badly, I suppose I could sleep/eat/work every other day or so.

Indignation blah blah blah

For those of you that missed the sarcasm, the above is me being irritated.

Addendum blah blah blah

Also I love how you spent the whole time posting all of that out and yet you still have added nothing useful to the discussion

And until I have time to wade through the posts made so far (there were a lot over the course of a few hours), I won't add anything useful.

Answering questions/comments made directly towards me or have my name in them (search function is good for that) is one thing, trying to get something useful out of what 4 or so pages already? Takes a bit longer. I'm going to guess though there is the usual Like/Don't Like RVS discussion in there somewhere and I'm also guessing someone(s) made a vote off of that and there have probably several "walls of texts" trying to tie a bunch of null/slightly scummy tells together into a shaky case.

But I will have something substantial to contribute no later than noon(PST) tomorrow. There should be at least a couple of things useful in there once the usual game start chaff is weeded out.

Justification blah blah blah

@Slaxx

..
But I will have something substantial to contribute no later than noon(PST) tomorrow. There should be at least a couple of things useful in there once the usual game start chaff is weeded out.

Just noticed it's Noon. Post under construction, morning busier than I thought it would be.

blah blah blah

And now, these 7 posts have provided us with hype to his first content post of the game. Granted, it was like a day since the game started, but they make up 7/11 posts for day 1.

*cheers*

OK, here it goes. Apologies in advance for being a bit later than I said and for being long, as I'm going to try and hit on everyone. If I don't mention a player then assume a dead neutral read.

Xine

: No post so far, so no opinion. Not even a neutral here.

boberz

: Seems he's one of the early flavors. Not getting a real town read off him but also not going to vote for him. Seems that most of the votes on him are for things that are early game attempts to get the game started (however poorly(?) he did it). Some folks mentioned some contradictions about his RSV and they are valid but I'm still trying to figure out if they are actually scummy or a result of game start jitters/excitement.

Parama

: Also an early flavor. Managed to garner 3 votes at one point but, as far as I can tell, they were no-reason RVS votes. The only bells ringing here, and they are not very loud ones, is his logging off CES's and Lowell's votes to bitterness over prior games. I'd willing to let that go unoted except that in the same post, and it's his first, he votes the only wagon that is competing with him. Regardless of how he justified the boberz vote, it seems off. But not enough for my vote at the moment. Keeping an eye on him though.

DemonHybrid

: Pretty much boberz partner in the RVS discussion and pretty much the same reason I'm not going to vote him either. Both players threw out a lot of static behind the RVS thing and am seriously considering throwing out most/all of their posts in relation to that as unusable. DH does get a nice big brownie point from me because he did take boberz off L-1 with his unvote. Indicates that he is town that is afraid of a hammer by scum rather than scum looking for a quickhammer. I'd expect that if he was scum, he'd have left his vote there and fall back on blaming boberz play for his own lynch had he(boberz) been lynched and had showed up town on the flip, if he was questioned about it at all.

Charter

: Pretty neutral here. Don't mind keeping him around though. He has only 3 posts so far and that is a bit thin to make any determinations off of but I do like his Post #79 where he responds to a comment made by Weaps. He's thinking and not afraid to defend his reads.

Lowell

: He's being the Lowell I played with before. Unlike the Lowell I played with, he actually made a point though that seems decent about Slaxx. In Post 99 and Post 116. I may have to reevaluate my overall opinion of him.

xvart

: From my RVS you might get the impression I like playing mafia with him. You'd be right but he remains neutral. Thinking out loud here but, like Charter, I like the direction his thinking seems to be going in.

Bub/Weaps

: Dead Neutral at the moment. Only difference between the two is that Weaps has voted, Bub has not. Both strike me as players who are getting themselves oriented and getting into the game but I can't even make a guess on alignment.

Slaxx

: The person I will vote if my actual vote goes no where. Main reason is L-1 on a player he has made a zero case on. He doesn't even bother to borrow someone else's. Just uses a 'see above post' in his vote post and the 'see above' post is based on the 'possibilities' and go back and read the thread to find them. Weak, very weak.

Unvote

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum.

Here is why:
Votes Parama. RVS vote but it is the third on Parama. Then switches his vote to boberz after it looks as if the Parama wagon is going nowhere, making him 5th on that wagon but with no explanation. He did give a reason of sorts. Called it a *hop* . But gives no explanation for the *hop* . Even when asked for an explanation (by Bub I believe) he accuses Bub of being confused and still doesn't give an explanation. Just implies that the reason, a *hop*, somehow is all the justification that is needed.

My conclusion is that CES is going to be on whatever wagon has even the slightest chance of going all the way to a lynch. And he is going to do it with as little explanation and reasoning as possible.

A whole bunch of neutrals/undecided/weak stances. Oso does give a town read on DH and scum reads on Slaxx and CES, yet his reasoning I find poor for someone who has been here since 2008 against other experienced players; the act of wagoning without explanation fits the notion that townies don't have to worry about proving themselves town and instead scumhunt. They do as they please and do not care to conform to others' standards. See Bub for the scum reaction.

I suppose this is more of a you're wrong argument than a you're scum argument, but then the scum tell comes from Oso trying to onto an easy tell/lynch.

@Parama.

Despite the quote fail I think I can sort out what you want.

The short version, I think there is a high likelihood one of them is scum. Slaxx for his L-1 on boberz with basically no stated reasoning other than "I agree with the possibilities set forth." and not even attempting to recap those possibilities or even add any thinking of his own.

CES for his hopping on whatever bandwagon (whether you agree with you being a legitimate wagon or not) looks like it might lead to a lynch.

Of the two CES action are the scummier by the reason of no reasoning at all, not even weak reasoning.

Rehash blah blah blah

..
Oso, your thoughts?
..

I think there is a lot of posting Which is good but makes it hell to keep up on one read through a day.

Also, from looking at the VC list Slaxx posted it seems I am still the only person on CES. And I did a quick ISO and he hasn't posted anything since I last looked so there is nothing to add to my original reason for a vote. So I'll switch to my second scummiest suspect.

Unvote

VOTE: Slaxx

For the reason stated here:

..

Slaxx:

The person I will vote if my actual vote goes no where. Main reason is L-1 on a player he has made a zero case on. He doesn't even bother to borrow someone else's. Just uses a 'see above post' in his vote post and the 'see above' post is based on the 'possibilities' and go back and read the thread to find them. Weak, very weak.
..

There are quite a few posts that I haven't had a chance to read yet. I see that boberz has fallen off a bit and Bub and Slaxx seem to be gaining ground on him and I need to dig in and see what has went on in the last day or so. I have a couple or three hours before bedtime so I hope to give a more substantial post later on.

[non-game]I see Xine made an appearance. Hi Xine.[/non-game]

A promise for more content among game summary and a wagon switch running off the same reasoning two posts ago.

First off, can we lynch Bub for answering inside the quotes?(<-Joke, but not by much)

I'll say I like my vote where it is for the moment but on re-reading I see that there is also no current support for Slaxx lynch either. Seems I'd be better off looking at Nico's VCs than a players. In addition to my own concerns about Slaxx, several others have made their own doubts known. But I'll go ahead and drop if for the moment.

I've looked over the Bub wagon (for reason other than his answering inside the quotes) and can't find much wrong with any of the reasons.

@Charter, you voted Bub here Post #190

..
I support this Bub wagon, as well, since his double standard he applies to Slaxx reeks of scumbuddies.

Help me out and point to that? I've been going over Bub's posts. Some of them are big and I probably missed something you didn't.

Unvote

Not going to replace a vote tonight (too fried from a long day) but I probably will after Charter points that out. I've obviously missed something.

As to others in the thread, I think Parama did have a good point about Xine not L-1ing boberz and voting Parama instead. Unlike the way I took exception to Slaxx putting boberz at L-1, Xine actually had some pretty well thought out reasoning.

@Parama, If I read your reasoning correctly, you think that Xine FOSed a scumbuddy and voted a townie. Then bub came in chainsaw defended a scumbuddy as well?

Direct connection with Bub, and Oso only acknowledges the wagon. Only the second to last paragraph adds new thought, and it's weird. At first it appears to support Parama's points against Xine, then appears to commend Xine for his reasoning.

Then Oso disappears for the last ~4 days.

What this amounts to is Oso giving little effort towards scumhunting, just enough to dismiss accusations that he hasn't contributed.

[Slaxx]

Pretty much WOMC. Honestly, I was too lazy to do that.

[Slaxx]

Thats why I told PArama to read Oso in ISO.

Also xvart, if you're not going to read my posts, then don't bother talking to me. I mentioned Oso yesterday and told Parama to Iso him.

[xvart]

Thats why I told PArama to read Oso in ISO.

Also xvart, if you're not going to read my posts, then don't bother talking to me. I mentioned Oso yesterday and told Parama to Iso him.

whoops. I ISO'ed boberz instead of you on accident. Withdraw the accusation. More later.

xvart.

[Socrates]

Not much I can respond to in that. All I can say is that is how Oso plays, I guess.

I can say that his low content is understandable when you remember why he replaced out of the game:

Oso requested replacement during the night due to extra responsibilities at work. Socrates has agreed to replace him. Everyone, say hello!

Hardly surprising that he put off posting content a lot if work was sucking up all his time.

As for the comment about him being around since 2008, one look at the number of posts he has made should re-contextualize that. He might have been around for a while, but he hasn't played that many games.

[Parama]

Socrates vs DH is town vs town
boberz is a gut town read IMO. Changing my mind, yep.
Slaxx is too awesome to lynch even if he's scum (I don't think he is)
xvart and charter are obvtown
Lowell is just dumb

Who does that leave?
Xine and WOMC.
Because WOMC's comments on Socrates REEEK of opportunism.

[Slaxx]

So WOMC hopped on my bub wagon and bussed? I guess thats more than plausible. The whole reason I unvoted Bub was because my gut told me something was weird about WOMC's vote on Bub.

[DemonHybrid]

Why is bob town to you now?

I guess since Socrates is being stubborn as all hell (not responding to my questions) and the Xine lynch is closer to getting done,

Unvote, Vote: Xine

. I don't care who gets lynched out of the 3 player pool (Xine, bob, Soc) as long as one of them do; I still have a grand feeling that 2 of those 3 are scum.

I would be almost certain that if Xine flips scum, Soc is her buddy. WOMC is.....eh. He's presented a great case against Soc and I just don't see the "opportunism" in his attack.

Lowell, after further review, is town that just doesn't know what the hell is going on.

[Slaxx]

Well whatever the case we better get this right because with charter and lowell refusing to stop tunneling me my mislynch is pretty much an automatic with less than 8 people.

[Slaxx]

Wait there are (presumably) two mafia left. 5 people. nvm nvm. We got time.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Let's settle this Xine lynch for today. I think we all agree she's scum.

[Xine]

DH vs Socrates; Socrates sheeps Parama, null tell, based on this:

Actually, Socrates has a bad habit of always following my lead, even when I'm scum. See: NY114.
Admittedly, I caught 2 of the 3 scum on the other team in that game so

Anyways, Xine is teh scum.

Besides, He already mentioned it was a placeholder vote.

Back to other stuff:
WOMC tates that my night kill speculation post is compleatly devaoid of content, I guess I need to point out that I was at least hinting that I am suspicious of Socrates. Not enough to place a vote, but I'll be watching him very closely. Weird that he was the one who dropped his vote and defended the nutrality of my statement. I liked his eventual defence of that, But he's on my list.

Why did I vote Slaxx???
Because he soft claimed power role. (Tried to take it back latter,oops) I just don't like that. My vote stays where it is.

At this point Parama is reading town to me, and his free pass to Slaxx to just be scum really buggs. I see he has a reputation for being a good player, But this personal attachment is likely clouding his judgement

[Parama]

I in'ned this game to play with Slaxx. Even if he's scum, there's still another scum besides him.

Fun fact: I don't think Slaxx is scum regardless.

[Slaxx]

I didnt intend for that to be a soft claim for PR. Just to say how silly charter is being.

[Slaxx]

Now we're doing what I like to call fishing for PRs. Judging by my reaction to this situation and the reactions of others, a skilled mafia player would probably be able to pick out some players who dont know hide their PR tells. So lets just stop altogether before we out one. We're ahead anyway.MK

[Slaxx]

-know how to hide their PR tells.