Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[TheLonging]

vote: slaxx

See guys? My voting of el got us somewhere!

[Sweep]

Random Number Generator picks random number 8!

Vote: Elleran

[TheLonging]

Come on Sweep, you can do better than this.

[Benmage]

el simo who is your alt..or main?

vote iceninja

wannabe sub zero.

[Retrospective]

el simo who is your alt..or main?

vote iceninja

wannabe sub zero.

Now this is a good reason for voting someone!

Benmage is 100% town.

[Elleran]

el simo who is your alt..or main?

vote iceninja

wannabe sub zero.

The point of an Alt account is so that the previous meta is gone. Revealing his real identity will go directly contradict the purpose of an alt account.

I disagree. Almost all reactions to random votes are null tells based on how new the player is. For instance in my first game, I flipped shit when my friend had two random votes on her in the very beginning of the game because I thought everyone was just auto lynching her 'to get the game started'. Anyway, I quickly learned that no one takes RVS seriously and everyone just bandwagons. People in random votes vote for

random

reasons or for the sake of voting with others. None of any of this is indicative of alignment.

Anyway, I agree with discussions in early game, I just think that there's so many null tells involved in Random voting that its just a waste of time.

RVS or no RVS is pretty much a matter of personal opinion. And just how I feel that random votes don't indicate alignment, neither does my disapproval in random voting.

I mostly agree with you, Retro. However, Slaxx is right about subtle reactions or tone changes. I would personally like an explosive start, but RVS is okay too.

VOTE: Sweep for prizes.

[ICEninja]

Sorry for not posting on the first 2 pages everyone, I thought this game wasn't going to start until Sunday. All is well.

Generally when I start I like to ask a few questions of everyone to get some possibly pertinent information.
1)What is your time zone? This is important because if we have some oversees friends playing then it's good to know if someone is going to be posting at odd hours. Good to know for L-1 situations, especially.
2)What is your mafia experience, on this site and elsewhere?
3)How frequently do you expect to be posting?

I live in pacific, which I believe is UTC-8.
My mafia experience is a quickly growing number of games here (about 8 or 9) and a decent amount of modding experience in party setting mafia. I always modded because my friends started policy lynching me on day 1 "just in case" because I won too much. Those jerks.
I like to post a lot, and I like to make really long posts. Expect to see my awesome avatar on a regular basis, with a lot of text next to it.

For the record, I share Retro's views of the RVS. I believe that truly random votes give us absolutely no worthwhile information, and that the only way the RVS becomes helpful is when someone makes a vote or accusation that isn't actually all that random.

I refuse. >:[

I disagree. Almost all reactions to random votes are null tells based on how new the player is.

Retro is blatantly refusing and ignoring the logic set by other players. In my eyes, I feel like town is more likely to do this than scum during the early stages of the game, because scum doesn't like being singled out. Town is more likely to stick to their true beliefs.

Other players, the one that comes to mind at the moment is Sweep, has only posted useless garbage that doesn't give anything to town.

His first post, while being a confirmation post so I can't read too much in to it, throws a joke in there. Then his second post is a vote based on literally the most worthless basis possible. RNG based votes aren't even going to get reactions out of people or create discussion. The fact that you're throwing in such empty posts considering there is already active discussion leads me to believe that you're more interested in not being noticed than anything else.

This is earlier than I usually make a move, but I'm feeling aggressive today.

Vote Sweep

.

[ICEninja]

I'll give a few quick reads on some other players, too.

I like the fact that diddin did some research on other players. The fact that he noticed that el simo was an alt indicates that he's paying attention. On the other hand, it seems very likely that he could have gained this information from pregame discussion from a scum buddy. For now I'm going to read this as a town tell, but should one flip scum I'll remember this small but existent connection.

I like el simo's posts so far. He's given a good reason to participate in the RVS, then made a small attack on Retro for ignoring his logic. However, I don't like the fact that he hasn't random voted. Considering he said this:

Retro the information about from the RVS often won't give us much but the information gained from the discussion that takes place because of the nonsense that goes on during the RVS gives us plenty.

It seems like el simo believes that discussion stemming from the RVS is useful. If that is the case, why don't you participate in the RVS in order to generate said discussion?

I actually really liked this from Retro:

Because you already know all three mafia?

This is interesting because of 2 things. One is that he could very well be right. Slaxx very may well have pointed out a small tell to indicate this, but at the same time actually know the outcome because he knows who is town and who is not. However, it is very interesting considering this:

So how do these setups where no one knows each other's roles work? If someone claims a pr that isn't in the game we still have to guess if they're scum or not?

Retro doesn't know much about closed setups. He's obviously never played in one before, and he definitely doesn't know how many scum are going to be in the game. Yet he specifically stated that there were 3 mafia. How would town know how many mafia are in this game? An experienced MSer may be able to make an educated guess based on past experience with closed mini games based on how many players there are, but I don't think Retro has the experience at all to be able to say without hesitation that there are 3 mafia. Very interesting indeed.

rewq needs to post more. I know, I took a long time, but he knows the game is going on. Posting only the fact that he's confirmed isn't very good.

Slaxx hasn't given me a whole lot that I feel like I can read. I like his point about Longing, but I don't exactly agree with the tell. I just like the fact that he's found tells so early.

Likewise, I don't feel like I can get much of a read from Longing, Ben, or Elleran.

[diddin]

1. I'm in US Central Time.
2. I've played maybe about 15 forum mafia games in total plus a bunch of EM.
3. Hopefully once or more in a day. I usually make pretty short posts but I'll occasionally make a long post, usually an ISO.

I'm indifferent on RVS. I can see where it has its uses, but I've also seen it far overstay its welcome and just lead to nothing in general. I like to kick off discussion fairly early.

Also the mod is in New Zealand time if anyone didn't know.

[Slaxx]

Well the piece of the puzzle is this: I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy. Especially this early in the game. I'm not saying El Simo and TheLonging can't be partners, I am just saying its actually a pretty decent initial tell. Neither have done anything particularly scummy, so we'll leave it be for now.

unvote

Vote:Sweep

[RichardGHP]

For the record, New Zealand time is UTC/GMT + 12 (we've just entered DST though, so it will be +13 for the duration of this game).

[Retrospective]

@ICE; I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

I've already answered most of your questions in my first post. I'm in Central Time Zone, GMT - 6. (Daylight saving time isn't factored in.)

Retro doesn't know much about closed setups. He's obviously never played in one before, and he definitely doesn't know how many scum are going to be in the game. Yet he specifically stated that there were 3 mafia. How would town know how many mafia are in this game? An experienced MSer may be able to make an educated guess based on past experience with closed mini games based on how many players there are, but I don't think Retro has the experience at all to be able to say without hesitation that there are 3 mafia. Very interesting indeed.

After I typed that up I wondered if I was right. I made the assumption that there would be three. Our last game, ICE, there were two mafia with nine players so I assumed the extra three players their would be another mafia. Am I wrong? I feel like the game would be a bit unbalanced given the fact that no one knows each other's roles with four mafia.

As far as your read on Sweep is concerned, I dismiss his play thus far as typical RVS. I'm interested to how he reactions to the pressure though.

@Slaxx; I guessed it, but I had help because I was reading your other game where Socrates made the same connection as you did.

[Slaxx]

I know I am reading too much into it, but placing the responsibility of your vote on random.org doesn't sit well with me.

[Slaxx]

I am glad you guessed my tell retro, but do you agree with it? Why or why not?

[Retrospective]

I thought you didn't want me to answer.

[Elleran]

Generally when I start I like to ask a few questions of everyone to get some possibly pertinent information.
1)What is your time zone? This is important because if we have some oversees friends playing then it's good to know if someone is going to be posting at odd hours. Good to know for L-1 situations, especially.
2)What is your mafia experience, on this site and elsewhere?
3)How frequently do you expect to be posting?

1) Central Time. At the time of this posting, it is

2) I've played at least 6 games. This is the only serious game going on for me.

3) I have school during weekdays and limited access during weekends. I will probably post at least once a day at worst.

@ICE; I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

Uhh... I don't know what to say about this. Maybe Ice simply learned from his previous game and is now a better player. I wouldn't let go suspicion so easily.

[Elleran]

EBWOP: 1) it is 3:57 here when I posted the above post.

[Sweep]

1) GMT
2) I have played 3/4 games here about 10 months ago and this is my first game back since the hiatus.
3) I hope to post at least once a day as I have been too inactive in previous games, reading but not posting.

Anyway back to the matters in hand. Slaxx is already buddying up to Retro. Offering an explanation to a question which only implies that he is to be trusted.

Retro, just bandwagon my vote. I'm right.

Again with the trust,

Trust me, its good.

Again,

Retro you're pretty good at picking up hints and I already know your style of play so I would prefer you not answer the question

I don't know what to think about this as it is so obvious that I can spot it.

As far as your read on Sweep is concerned, I dismiss his play thus far as typical RVS. I'm interested to how he reactions to the pressure though.

I am not aware of this pressure you speak of? The pressure being because I made a random vote during the RVS when I just confirmed?

but placing the responsibility of your vote on random.org doesn't sit well with me.

See above.

[ICEninja]

I know I am reading too much into it, but placing the responsibility of your vote on random.org doesn't sit well with me.

Is this the reason you voted for Sweep? If so, why did you not give an explanation for your vote in the initial voting post?

I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy. Especially this early in the game.

I agree with you to an extent. This definitely is a tell to imply that they are not scum together. However, it is fairly week and I definitely wont be using this (unless as part of a grander case) to clear one or the other should we get a scum flip down the road.

I made the assumption that there would be three. Our last game, ICE, there were two mafia with nine players so I assumed the extra three players their would be another mafia. Am I wrong? I feel like the game would be a bit unbalanced given the fact that no one knows each other's roles with four mafia.

You are right in assuming that 3 scum to 9 townies is the most balanced way to play a 12 player game. However, that does not mean that is what this setup is. I have seen a setup involving 3 scum plus a serial killer, and am pretty sure there are 12 player games that have 4 mafia, either with a decent number of town power roles or the mafia split up in to 2 competing families.

I find it plausible that you simply assumed, but there wasn't any hesitation, and you were extremely specific in your wording ("the three mafia") so I am still inclined to feel that there is a decent chance you just made a pretty bad scum slip.

In fact, at the moment I feel like it is a strong enough piece of evidence to act upon.

Unvote, vote Retrospective

.

Sweep made a decent post, and I like his point about Slaxx's buddying with Retro. I however disagree with it somewhat on the basis of knowing that these 2 players have a history together and Retro enjoys sharing banter in game with friends of his. At least I have seen him do it as town, so it is a nullish tell on his end. Slaxx, on the other hand, I do not have a meta read of and may be suspicious of depending on future interactions with certain players.

I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

For the record, I intend to never play that poorly ever again regardless of alignment. I would prefer we never speak of that awful game again.

[Retrospective]

@ICE; I'm not sure if it's just because you're in a aggressive mood, but I'm noticing a very big difference in your play between this game and last. You were much more passive in the last game (especially this early). Considering that you were mafia, I'd say this is a good sign. :>

Uhh... I don't know what to say about this. Maybe Ice simply learned from his previous game and is now a better player. I wouldn't let go suspicion so easily.[/quote]
I'm not saying he's automatically town. I'm just noting the change. His playstyle is significantly different. He's going much further on a limb. This has me leaning town on ICE for the time being.

@Sweep case on Slaxx; If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious. The fact that he said 'I'm right' is evidence enough to prove that he was joking because there is no way he could know he is right on the second page. My only other game there was a player who was telling people to follow him without giving reason and town called it a towntell.

@ICE; I'm actually not sure how to refute this. You're wrong on it being a scumslip because I'm not scum. But it was exactly that, a slip. I was joking around with slaxx not really thinking about the setup. I was just messing with him beause he was trying to make a scumhunting point and I guessed an answer that was obviously not the reason he was looking for. And this isn't a very good defense against a scumslip case considering a scumslip case centers around a slip when scum isn't thinking, but this is the best I can do. I didn't know there was a possibility of four mafia because I didn't really consider it. I think this is a bad reason for voting because you and I both know it can have just as easily been a null tell from me messing around with Matt as a scumtell.

[Benmage]

Sorry for not posting on the first 2 pages everyone, I thought this game wasn't going to start until Sunday. All is well.

This is a peculiar unnecessary apology.

Generally when I start I like to ask a few questions of everyone to get some possibly pertinent information.

Link me a game you did this as town, and a game you did this as scum.

I generally hate any rqs stuff soooo:
1. EST
2. A lot…and looking at this playerbase I am without a doubt the best present player.
3. As much as need be/am able to.

This is earlier than I usually make a move, but I'm feeling aggressive today.

Vote Sweep

.

What would you say your normal play is like? Do you find aggression a town-tell, scum, or null/neutral?

unvote

Vote:Sweep

What is the reasoning for this vote?

Dinnertime more later.

[el simo]

el simo who is your alt..or main?

The point of an Alt account is so that the previous meta is gone. Revealing his real identity will go directly contradict the purpose of an alt account.

El I live in New Zealand so that is GMT +12.
I've been on the site for four or so years and have had many accounts so I can't give an exact number but my guess is over 30 or so.
I've recently just ended my work contract as well so I have nothing but time all day to post, so don't mind me if I'm posting after every other post. I don't got much else to do.

It seems like el simo believes that discussion stemming from the RVS is useful. If that is the case, why don't you participate in the RVS in order to generate said discussion?

I been waiting for nice, plump bandwagon to plop my vote onto. How ever having to answer your question now defeats any purpose my bandwagon vote might have had so I might as well just go a head and

vote: ICEninja

for that. You make me sad.

You do make a good point about Retro, I feel it could very well be a slip. After playing in as many set ups as I have I really don't have a clue what to expect from my minis any more. Which makes me feel, maybe it is his lack of experience that led to him making such a confident guess?

Well the piece of the puzzle is this: I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy. Especially this early in the game. I'm not saying El Simo and TheLonging can't be partners, I am just saying its actually a pretty decent initial tell. Neither have done anything particularly scummy, so we'll leave it be for now.

Do you agree with my point though? And what does this tell you if Longing is scum?

@Sweep case on Slaxx; If Slaxx was gonna buddy me, he would make it much less hella obvious. The fact that he said 'I'm right' is evidence enough to prove that he was joking because there is no way he could know he is right on the second page. My only other game there was a player who was telling people to follow him without giving reason and town called it a towntell.

I have numerous problems with this. Firstly, scum don't intention buddy with their partner, mostly because it is a bad strategy but also because scum buddying is almost a natural reaction. You know who your partner is and so you take to him kindlier, you agree with him more to try have his opinion favoured hopefully manipulating the town to believe so as well, to try push false bandwagons, etc. Saying "he wouldn't

make

it" anything when referring to buddying is pretty null and void. Secondly, your argument is a logical fallacy. You are essentially say, "that is so obviously scummy he can't be scum." It is equivalent to saying, you are so townie you have to be scum.Lastly, you can't make this statement with out honestly believing that we are going to buy it. For all we know that could be exactly what you want us to think, this is called WIFOM, more commonly known as catch 22 in the real world (you are the one not from these forums, right?), and in my experience this has almost always lead me to scum. This coupled with your possible slip mentioned earlier in this post makes me rather suspicious of you right off the bat.

I feel I don't need a random vote any more. I've found a better place.

unvote, vote: Retrospective

[Slaxx]

The reasoning for my vote is just to get a bandwagon going.

The only reason I am buddying with Retro is its our first game together on MS (Although we have played probably literally a hundred or more on EM). If its a concern, then I apologize, but I am not going to stop. He's a friend.

In that light, I am actually not for sure if I buy his whole spiel on the "slip" that was pointed out earlier. I will probably wind up reading and dissecting it 15 times.

El Simo, the whole point of calling TheLonging town was just to gather reactions and get something going. I do think its a very slight town tell, but nothing awesome.

I think I have addressed everything. Don't expect for me just to answer and be on the defense. I get fairly aggressive but I am busy this weekend. So you guys get a break.

[Slaxx]

Also: Ben and I are not going to get along.

[Retrospective]

Note: Sorry for the wall of text, but if you're gonna suspect me you should probably get used to it. >.< I typically have a lot to say.

Wow, this is much less fun when everyone is suspecting you D:
Alright let's see if I can get you guys to stop voting me.

First, all of you guys are taking slaxx and I messing around way too seriously. He wasn't literally saying he was right, he was joking. I think this should be obvious given that no one is sure in a RVS as an RVS is a *gasp* RVS. I was excited I was in a game with slaxx and we were messing around, that's over now. All you guys are tearing apart everything I say for any possible molecule of a scumtell and now I'm not in a joking mood :<
Something to keep in mind: If you look hard enough, you'll always be able to find someting that somehow can tie into a possible scumtell. (Except so far I don't see how any of you can say I scumtelled except maybe my guess regarding the number of mafia) You guys need to look at the big picture not every minute detail. I learned this the hard way because I tore someone's ISO apart looking for a way to convince town to vote him, and I had a very persuasive case even though he was town. >.>

Alright, time to get you guys to go bandwagon someone else!

-----------

el simo; You put words in my mouth that I ever said. Or at least you interrupted what I was saying incorrectly. I wasn't saying slaxx did anything "that was so obviously scummy he couldn't be scum." This is because I think he hasn't done anything scummy at all. I was saying that I disagree with RVS and he was saying "but I'm right, trust me." There's nothing indicative of scum anywhere about that. Telling me to follow him because he was right on a RVS was obviously a joke. (I'm actually surprised you guys aren't understanding this) I was defending Slaxx because Sweep took an obvious joke for a scumtell. Also, I have a tendency to defend players when I feel that an arguement against them is weak or just out right wrong. I also seem to do this more for people I like, ie. Slaxx. Ask ICE, I did it for the first 4 pages in our last game. So there was no WIFOM about that. (Gah, I hate that word 'cause everyone uses it to describe anything other than the most rudimentary logic) So I believe your argument about be defending Slaxx as my scumbuddy falls.

Your whole case is based on Slaxx and I being scum. But you know for that to work, would Slaxx have to be scum too? From my experience with Mafia, (which is actually quite a bit, I'm pretty good at EM) Mafia rarely rarely addresses their partners. Or wants to know what their partners are saying, or questions the logic of their partners unless they are bussing. Another thing mafia partners never do is try to convince the other to vote with them. It is mafia's natural tendency to avoid their partner because they do not want the others to draw a connection between them to. Now go and reread all of the interactoins between Slaxx and I. This doesn't fit into that formula at all. It's actually pretty blatantly the opposite.

Lastly, I'm not saying that slaxx is town (Well, kind of because my read on him is townsided so far) but I a slaxx/me scumbuddy team is impossible. The fact that I'm not mafia at all adds to that fact as well.

-----------

Gahh, more poeple are posting in the little Post Review thing

-----------

@slaxx; In all the games that you've been with me, have you ever seen me make a slip?

I think legimate scumslips happen later in game, this early in the game mafia should be reading and double reading all their posts to make sure nothing they've said is scummy.

Alright, now that you're done, reread what I said with the idea that "Hmm, maybe he's telling the truth" Then read the thread (Oh, c'mon, it's short) and tell me if you still think I'm mafia.