Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[Elleran]

EBWOP:

Here are some of my thoughts before I had to bed:

I meant "head to bed".

[diddin]

I don't really think Retro's "slip" is as damning as some of you think it is. I usually assume 3 mafia in a mini game until there is evidence otherwise.

TBH the only really scummy thing Sweep has done to me is his ISO 3 where he puts on a lot of suspicion with no vote. Don't think he's a good lynch option.

I wasn't too sold on the Retro case at the beginning but he is beginning to AtE more and more and not defend himself. His initial IT WAS A SLIP BUT NOT A SCUMSLIP BECAUSE IM NOT MAFIA defense in ISO 14 is absolute, utter crap. Plus now it's all just come down to OH WAAH AN EXPERIENCED PLAYER IS ATTACKING ME BUT I'M OH SO OBVIOUS TOWN. Also I noticed that with all the stuff he wrote he didn't put down a vote for a long time. I know he said he dislikes RVS but he was taking plenty of stances on people before even putting a vote down.

FoS Retrospective

I may switch votes after a votecount but I don't want to drive Retro too close to a lynch just yet.

[el simo]

Geez DH, way to label your read through. Now I know exactly who said what!

I agree with your read on diddin. Sweep and ICE I am going to have to reread.

I've given those, but mr veteran here likes to tunnel and not address anyone else in the thread other than me.

Yah because I've been trying to pry a response out of you that actually confronts what I said about you. I wasn't going to stop on you until you gave me a proper response to what I was actually accusing you of, not the nonsense you gave me instead. But now that I've made it as clear I can it seems you don't have one and instead just choose to cry, so my vote will stay on you until I find someone better.

This just says you're not reading because I've answered every little "omg i don't like how you play" argument you've thrown at me.

You're really bad at reading tense.

Diddin, nice parrot. You're helping DH out a lot with that post.

Will reread later for reads on ICE and Sweep.

[el simo]

You also have a poor memory because:

Perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion

and then after that you still missed my point. When you finally DID get my point, you just cried and said I'm stupid.

[Slaxx]

Elleran, if you have a gut scum read on me, vote me. Be sure to make sure you fabricate a case on me later though.

Pretty sure Elleran is scum, saying you have a gut scum read on someone who voted you with giving no reason why isn't exactly a town indicator. Also not following up with a vote is even woirse, IMO. Just shows you're afraid to vote. Especially when your vote is nowhere else.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm replacing for rewq.

And hai Slaxx!

And it's okay Retro. Must be the Ein avatar.

[DemonHybrid]

When you need to read through 7 pages, you don't bother with the labeling...

Just skim through. Like me. =3

[el simo]

When you need to read through 7 pages, you don't bother with the labeling...

Just skim through. Like me. =3

Try rereading an 140 page mini for the endgame analysis..

[TheLonging]

DH I really have no clue what you're talking about for most of that post so I'm actually gonna have to go LOOK through the thread later. And I love you bro, but Sweep seriously?

[DemonHybrid]

DH I really have no clue what you're talking about for most of that post so I'm actually gonna have to go LOOK through the thread later. And I love you bro, but Sweep seriously?

Yeap.

Again, sorry for the lack of labeling, but look through in a different tab. I'm going to label for now on, but it was the quickest and most efficient way to get my thoughts out there.

[Sweep]

Considerably more lurky than ICE with the same amount of suspicion pinning and bad cases. You're the one who should die.

Considerably more lurky involves posting twice as many posts? Please can you explain how each of my cases is weak and the basis to your vote apart from I think he is scum.

Re-reading the game this sticks out like a sore thumb for me,

@ el simo; Then there really isn't much more to argue. It's getting to the "OMG NO UR WRONG" state of this argument. Your whole case for me can be summed up into one thing: Playstyle. You're unfamiliar with the way I play, so you immediately amuse I'm scum.

This is lynchworthy on its own but then the ad hominen attacks and sarcastic comments just confirm my suspicions that Retro is very suspicious.

Unvote

VOTE: Retrospective

Jace and Retro, I also want to know your case for voting for me.

[Retrospective]

@ Sweep; You couldn't have re-read too hard because I went into dept why you were mafia. Jace and DH posted less, but throughly explained as well.

Also, it's true, your post number has been higher than ICE's but the overall value of your posts have been much lower. His arguments have been his own. Almost everything you've said this game has been recycled from something that ICE or el simo has said. That's why I'm a bit confused why Slaxx said you were valuable to town because you're pretty much just a summary el simo and ICE.

and lol, I'm not even gonna refute your last statement as its a matter of opinion and I'm sure many would disagree wtih you. Also, you're scum. Also why the unvote if you were already voting me? Just for dramatic effect?

Big post incoming.

[Slaxx]

El simo, what do ya think of Eleran?

[DemonHybrid]

@ Sweep; You couldn't have re-read too hard because I went into dept why you were mafia. Jace and DH posted less, but throughly explained as well.

Also, it's true, your post number has been higher than ICE's but the overall value of your posts have been much lower. His arguments have been his own. Almost everything you've said this game has been recycled from something that ICE or el simo has said. That's why I'm a bit confused why Slaxx said you were valuable to town because you're pretty much just a summary el simo and ICE.

Right you are, Ken.

[Slaxx]

He's someone I will be able to read and make connecions with later. MY view right now: let him talk. If he's scum he is just going to incriminate him and his partners.

[Retrospective]

Alright, time to go through my reads. A lot of my arguments are going to be based on people's interactions and reads with me. As both mafia and I know I'm town this is a significant way for me to look for scum. I understand that until you are sure I'm town a lot of these arguements carry less weight. So just save/bookmark this post or something for later, because I think it will be important later on.

I always rank my reads from 1-10. 1 being absolute scum, 5 being neutral and 10 being absolute town. (You will very rarely see me go above 8 and below 2)

--------

DevilHybrid:

I really like how he outlined the thread. This method made it very easy to see his stances on everything that happened and actually took away a potential advantage he had. Since he was joining late, his points could start midday and skip over potentiality suspicious actions. Mafia could also have taken advantage of the situation because he could have easily read through the game and picked the most scummy person to vote. He could follow with the rest of the town and not generally make a splash, and do what mafia does best. But instead, DH made several new arguments and statements that were his own. he also agreed and disagreed with several aspects of the game from various players. Seems like geuine scumhunting to me. So far so good. The main reason why I think DH is town is because I am the easy mafia target. I have several people putting pressure on me and he could have easily just said "I agree." I think if DH were mafia aligned, he wouldn't have supported me and said it wasn't a slip, especially when everyone else was saying it was. This shows he's actually bringing his own thought into the game and not just following the easiest target or agreeing with town. So far I have a very solid town read on him. -- 8.

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TheLonging:

TL is more tricky because I can see both a mafia and a town motivation for his play so far. However, there are parts where I think he made blatant towntells and thus he is my second highest town read right now. His instant hard attack/clear could be one of two things. 1, he could be mafia who was trying to latch on to any possible scumtell as early as possible. 2, he was town who felt like he set a trap for mafia and successfully caught two mafia, thus clearing someone. I disagree with his logic, but I think I can see where he is coming from. I think if he were mafia, he would've jumpped at the idea of a town making a statement that with a bit of tweaking could be put into a scummy light. (ex. Sweep, el simo)
Now on to the towntell's I have on him.

If I understood his arguments correctly, he is completely confident that ICE is scum. (This would be the reason why he thinks Sweep is town.) When ICE made then switched his argument to me, TL disregarded it as scum pushing on someone else. I cannot see this action from a mafia perspective because it puts you in a scummy light to blatently ignore posts and arguments. However, TL did it because he felt that there was no way that ICE could be telling the truth.
Secondly, TL cannot be Sweep's partner. The blatant buddying/defending is much too strong. Scum buddies try to make other's view their partner in positive light, but they also attempt to hide their connection. You'll usually see narrow buddying and a lot of not addressing each other. Or in the case of bussing, a sudden shift in the attitude toward that target that makes it quite obvious. -- 7.

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ICEninja:

So far I think his play has been pretty townsided. He overly aggressive stance in early to late RVS makes me think he is town just because I spent two weeks playing with him and I feel like I have a pretty good handle on how he plays. He's playing much more recklessly and doesn't seem like he's afraid to get his hands dirty. This is almost a polar opposite from last game where he was gentle and timid with almost all of his voting and reads. As far as his case on Sweep goes, I don't think it was that strong, but I absolutely don't think there was anything scummy about it. I somewhat agreed with it, but I wasn't feeling sure enough to vote on the matter yet. With this alone, I would probably rank him around a 7. However, there are things that worry me.

Retro is blatantly refusing and ignoring the logic set by other players. In my eyes, I feel like town is more likely to do this than scum during the early stages of the game, because scum doesn't like being singled out. Town is more likely to stick to their true beliefs.

To me this seemed like a pretty strong (an accurate ) read, however the next post his views on me flipped a 180. I don't think the "slip" that is utter bullshit should have had this much of an impact on his first town read.
I'm looking forward to seeing how he responds to the new advancements in this game and will refine my read on him after he does so. -- 6

--------

Slaxx:

I started out the game with a very strong town read on Slaxx. The way he was already eliminating scumbuddy teams and trying to get people to discuss logic long before RVS was over gave me this read. But since the beginning I feel like his play has steady became less and less town. I started to doubt his alignment when he was worried over my slip. I feel like he knows me well enough that he should have posted that it was a null tell looooonngg before he did. At this point in time, his vote is a means of lurker hunting. This is something, I've seen mafia do in my last game. It gives the illusion of scumhunting and looks like the person is interested in discussion. Without seeing who he really suspects, I have a hard time getting a solid read on him. [My read on him will solidify once I see him in action as I am pretty familiar with his play style] At the start of of this game, I would've given Slaxx and 9. However, due to recent events I'm feel less secure about him. He is still townsided though. -- 6

[Something I noticed about Slaxx that I'm trying not to let affect my read because its really subjective: I noticed that he generally seemed happy when the game started. I know Slaxx dislikes mafia and if he were mafia he would already know his partners and know I was not one of them. I think he would've started the game in a less flamboyient manner if this were the case.]

--------

I'm going to skip over my null reads because they haven't posted enough for me to get a clear read on them. I will elaborate on them further down the line.

--------

el simo:

The best way to describe my read on el simo is confused. I'm confused because after reading, I can pin a mafia motiviation on just about everything he's done this game, however almost everyone in this game has said he is town. I'm going to go into why I think he is mafia but I would very much appreciate if someone could explain just what el simo has done to make everyone so sure he is town. I must be missing something big, because I don't see it at all.

el simo's play this game has in my opinion is fake. His arguments and his cases seem completely canned. This is a phrase we used to use in debate for a pre-packaged case that you bring into the round and try to make the topic fit into it rather than build a case over what's particularly is happening in the topic. I read this as a hard scumtell because town is concerned about FINDING scum, whereas mafia is concerned about MAKING town look like scum. Canned cases are used to make the illusion of real scumhunting, but when you really examine in dept it becomes pretty clear there's no real scumhunting going on.

First, his case:
el simo's case this game has been a mix of disregarding arguments for buzz words (Wifom, AtE, OMGUS) and bringing the round into his wiki link.
He keeps taking arguments made by various people and saying that their invalid because it fits into one of the buzz words that he likes to use so much. This is classic discrediting. He's trying to discredit the source of all the members of town. Another example of him discrediting town, is the fact that he keeps saying that I haven't refuted his case or completely ignored his points when if you actually read the arguements, you can see that I in fact have not ignored any of his points. It's an endless circle of him discrediting my arguments and then saying that I haven't responded.
Let's look at his case in more detail. He is saying that due to the arguments I made regarding Slaxx being town, I am doing something that his wiki says mafia

sometimes

does. He's stated his case various times and it's always been exactly the same. "The logic you are using sorta kinda fits into this wiki that says you could be mafia, so /vote." First, my arguments haven't been filled with this massive amount of wifom that makes them unable to follow. They've all been pretty straight forward. I discussed human nature when playing mafia. I explained how typical mafia plays and how Slaxx and myself have not fit into such definitions. Perhaps you guys at mafiascum consider that type of logic WIFOM and so therefor an autoscum argument, but you're simply wrong.

Now let's look at the target of his case; me.
If you reread, you can see that el simo was largely playing it safe until someone came under a considerable amount of early pressure. ICE started the pressure and sudenly el simo pops in with his canned case that is backed by a wiki! Wow, impressive! Perhaps the fact that wiki's are user written and are not always correct is just a myth! Anyway, el simo never really responds to anything I say other than the classic discrediting the source and then restarting that I sort of fit into his wiki. The main reason why you can tell that his play is fake is because so many other users have used arguements that would fit into this canned case, but he hasn't sprung it on them. He's just trying to keep the focus of the game on me and his out-of-the-game link and away from legitimate scumhunting.

Time to post some quotes. When reading these, ask yourself why we all aren't mafia.

I highly doubt one scum would shoot down an initial town read coming from a townie on their scumbuddy.

Firstly, scum don't intention buddy with their partner, mostly because it is a bad strategy but also because scum buddying is almost a natural reaction. You know who your partner is and so you take to him kindlier, you agree with him more to try have his opinion favoured hopefully manipulating the town to believe so as well, to try push false bandwagons, etc.

Yes they can, but really, do you expect scum to lead a BW on their own scum? I mean, from the VERY first vote on them? And that picked up FAST.

After a full readthrough I find the slaxx/Retro buddying to be too blatant to come from scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is probably town tbh.

That's just a few, but this is getting too long.

Another thing to note; el simo has not once commented on any of my reads on other people. He is just concerned with me and keeping attention away from actual scumhunting. If all of you weren't unified with a towntell on him, it would be a toss up between Sweep and el simo for who gets my vote. -- 4-2

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Sweep:

This is way too long and I've already on over this in dept. Something to add to my other case everytime you've put pressure on anyone it's been at a safe distance and on someone who is either other pressure or is lurking. You're afraid to get your hands dirty. -- 2

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I just realized I forgot Jace. I feel pretty good about him too. I'll explain my read on him and the others tomorrow. (These big games are crazy!)

Reads:
DH: 8
TL: 7
Jace: 6-7 (explain later)
ICE: 6
Slaxx: 6
Eleran: 5-6 (explain later)
diddin: 5
iamnobody: 5
Benmage: 5
el simo: 4-2
Sweep: 2

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I have an 18 page paper due tomorrow for college and I'm only on page 5. I'm going to try to have enough will power not to read anymore of this thread or post today. Wish me luck. >.>
I've given you all I have time for today, good luck.

PS, I don't have time to proof read it, I"m sorry if its difficult to understand.

[Retrospective]

Wow, I have no life. Alright good luck guys.

Slaxx, I feel like I didn't put enough love into your section so ily man.

[Sweep]

Several points I now need to mention.

Sweep:
This is way too long and I've already on over this in dept. Something to add to my other case everytime you've put pressure on anyone it's been at a safe distance and on someone who is either other pressure or is lurking. You're afraid to get your hands dirty. -- 2

You start with an OMGUS,

Let's get some OMGUS up in here.
Vote: Sweep

Then you move onto some reasoning, after the vote.

I think Sweep is mafia because of the tone of his arguments.

and then -

His level of certainty is what concerns me the most. I'm sorry, but I always think who is fos'ing me is mafia first. Because I think to myself "How could this person actually think my play is scummy? He must be making this stuff up because I am so obviously town."

Back to the playstyle tell within a few sentences. In effect you have admitted that your whole argument is OMGUS right here.

First, Sweep could be mafia who knows that ICE is town because he's not one of his other partners. And in a sense slipped that ICE is absolutely town. [This one is more likley]

I could be mafia who's strategy could be to defend ICE who then is certainly town. This logic is not steadfast and is based on the hypothetical if I am scum, conversely if I am not scum then you can think of an equally hypothetical situation.

Recycle -

Then there really isn't much more to argue. It's getting to the "OMG NO UR WRONG" state of this argument. Your whole case for me can be summed up into one thing: Playstyle. You're unfamiliar with the way I play, so you immediately amuse I'm scum.

Playstyle rears it's ugly head again, this is not a defence.

Oh no! D: Was that another slip. Keep it up simo, you're on a roll!

if you're gonna vote on that, then you deserve to lose

Mark my words, mafia is gonna start voting me because they feel I'm a safe lynch now

Sarcasm and AtE

everytime you've put pressure on anyone it's been at a safe distance and on someone who is either other pressure or is lurkingp

This is categorically not true, I have spent a lot of time reading this thread and formulating my own opinions.

I feel like he knows me well enough that he should have posted that it was a null tell looooonngg before he did.

Lay off the buddying to Slax please, knowing people means nothing in this game.

el simo's case this game has been a mix of disregarding arguments for buzz words (Wifom, AtE, OMGUS) and bringing the round into his wiki link.

These sayings are all being used correctly, you used extensive WIFOM, AtE and OMGUS as detailed above and they point to a player who may not be scum but is certainly being economical with the truth, does not want to face the facts.

Perhaps the fact that wiki's are user written and are not always correct is just a myth!

Are you saying that these tell's do not exist because user's have created the Wiki? This is ridiculous, these tells are as valid as any other, Too Town is a known fallacy, AtE is a well documented argument flaw outside of Mafia and WIFOM is well documented outside of Mafia. I would love for you to try and argue that the content on the Wiki is bogus and discredit's the case.

~~~~

I know I have tunnelled on Retro but I hope this evidence is enough for you guys to see my point about him, I have to go to bed now. I will post more opinions tomorrow.

Still waiting for Iamnobody.

[el simo]

Also, it's true, your post number has been higher than ICE's but the overall value of your posts have been much lower. His arguments have been his own. Almost everything you've said this game has been recycled from something that ICE or el simo has said. That's why I'm a bit confused why Slaxx said you were valuable to town because you're pretty much just a summary el simo and ICE.

This is a very interesting point and I will have to reread him for this. I'm sorry I didn't get it done yesterday, but quite honestly, it's cause I was playing WoW.

El simo, what do ya think of Eleran?

I will add this to my reread.

Retro, I don't even know how to start with you. I'll add that to my reread.

[Retrospective]

I shouldn't be posting becuase I should be working, but does anyone else think Sweep defense right there is incredibly weak? The funny thing about it is if you read the thread he took some of the stuff out of order to make it appear like I "OMG I THINK UR MAF CUZ U VOTE 4 ME LET ME FIND REASON 2 PROVE IT" when really it's pretty obvious I was suspecting him by the content of my posts prior to my vote. I also find it interesting that he tried to defend el simo, but never actually explain why el simo is town. Just that I am wrong.

Anyway, weak defense is weak and also recycled much like everything else he's said this game. Sweep, honestly, you're just making this easier on me.

[RichardGHP]

Fifth Vote Count of Day 1:

[0] Benmage - [

diddin

]
[1] Slaxx - [TheLonging]
[1] Elleran - [

Sweep,

Slaxx]
[2] ICEninja - [Benmage

, el simo

, diddin]
[3] Sweep - [

Elleran, ICEninja, Slaxx

Retrospective, Jase, DemonHybrid]
[4] Retrospective - [ICEninja, el simo, Elleran, Sweep]
[0] TheLonging - [

Jase

]
[1] Not Voting - [Iamnobody]

Names in

strikethrough text

indicate unvotes.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to achieve a lynch and to end Day 1. Deadline for this day can be found here.

---

Iamnobody has approximately 29 and 1/2 hours to post before he is prodded.

[Jase]

Sweep: Your post 192 is meant as a defense of the case against you right?

Retro: I noticed you rated me fairly town (at 6 or 7). Though you also said that you essentially consider suspicion against you to be a scumtell. I'm not sure if you noticed, but I listed you as one of my top suspects earlier, and have not changed my mind about you. If el simo is so scummy for suspecting you then why not me too? It's even for the same reason (I think). Not that the 'slip' was that damning. It's the way you flailed when trying to justify it.

You also give Longing town points because (and I'm paraphrasing) he was being too obviously scummy for him to be scum.

THIS IS BULLSHIT.

You never, ever, ever give anyone town points for this. EVER! For example, imagine in a game player X when at L-1 and asked to claim, claims scum. Do you instantly clear him because 'There's no way scum would do something so obvious'? No. You do not. Or if player Y sees the impending lynch on player X and says 'Player A has been really townie so far, but he's obviously going for an easy mislynch on X, it must all be an act. Let's lynch him instead.' He does not become the towniest guy in the village. Scummy is equal to scummy. There is no such thing as too scummy to be scum. It does not exist.

IT DOES NOT EXIST!

[ICEninja]

I need to catch up on about 4 pages worth of posts that happened. Try to hold out, as this post is going to be pretty beastly in size, even compared to my usual.

ICE; Dropping the number of mafia argument, do you still have a scumread on me? If so, why?

I don't have or ever have had a scum read on you this game. The reason my vote is on you is because I believe your statement about there being 3 mafia was just too confident to sound like a good guess to me. I'm not positive by any means that what you did was a scum slip, but if it was it means you are surefire scum.

And as I read on, this actually changes. Everyone who is saying you are using the "too scummy to be scum" argument is absolutely right. If someone is scummy to a certain degree, how can this possibly in any way shape or form indicate town? Because scum wouldn't do that? Why would town do that? Unless you can find a reason someone id doing something that implies being town, you can't rule them out as scum. This argument is almost a ridiculous as saying "the ocean has too much water, I can't possibly drown in it".

But Ice voted for Sweep OUT of RVS. He used a case on Sweep based on RVS votes really. That's kind of, you know, STUPID at best.

In my experience, someone making a vote out of RVS actions or RVS responses is what ends the RVS. This isn't useless or stupid. I obviously didn't believe in the case, as the unvote came quickly. I did, however, managed to pull a few players in to an awkward bandwagon, thus getting a better read out of them. Would you say what I did was anti-town, considering all that?

Sure. This will also satisfy someone's request to post a game where I asked my 3 opening questions (as town, at least).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35&start=0
This one is nice and short, but gives plenty of demonstration of my town play, if you must bring meta in to it.

So the only way I could possibly think Sweep is scum barring any investigative reports is if ICE somehow got EXTREMELY lucky catching scum based on their RVS votes.

Any time anyone throws a weak, moderately random (discussion engaging, the purpose of the vote was to incite him to post content) vote, there is about a 1/3 or 1/4 chance depending on the setup of actually landing vote on scum. It was no different with my vote than any other so far, really. Why are you so convinced Sweep is town? At the point in the game when you declared Sweep probably town, he had done so little that the only possible way you could have indication that he is town is by having scum information.

I am the most suspicious of Sweep at the moment because of his last post where he implied that ICE was town even though he hasn't supplied any evidence to support this. I think this might have been a bit of a slip. Perhaps Sweep as mafia knows that ICE isn't a partner. If you look at the tone in his last post its pretty obvious that he doesn't think ICE is mafia.

This is a good point. He did seem pretty sure that I'm town, and hasn't said anything about actually having a town read on me. had he mentioned something to the effect that he found my posts to imply town that is one thing, but he simply made the assumption. This is to be considered.

If you're not on the list you haven't made an impression on me which means you probably arent talking enough, or alternatively I skipped over you unintentionally.

I haven't said much in the past page, but I've definitely given more content than some of the players you discussed. Perhaps you skipped over me unintentionally?

I like Retro's vote and case on Sweep. It is well thought out, and makes a good point. However, other things Sweep has said gave me a town feeling about him. Your logic of him being scum outweighs my gut town read on him, as I don't rely much on my gut read, but I don't feel convinced enough to switch votes.

I think Longing's arguments are completely crap, as I placed a vote on someone with the purpose of generating discussion. That isn't scummy.

I feel like I was probably one of the few people not misunderstanding simo's arguments. As stated earlier in my post about suspecting Retro for his too scummy to be scum argument, I agree with simo.

This worried me a bit.

Why would someone reading you closely worry you? It should only worry you if you have something to hide.

@Elleran; You managed to post and tell us why you've been busy. And I buy the excuse, but you got to give us something. Showing up and saying that you generally disagree or agree with arguments and then not saying which arguments they are is nothing short of active lurking.

I fully agree. Get in here and post or replace out.

For a guy who's never played a mini game before you were pretty sure about the number of scum, Slaxx didn't even mention numbers in his post so why you brought that into equation in the first place is curious. I think it is a lot more likely that if you weren't sure, being new to MS, you would've said "because you know who ALL the mafia are" and then perhaps asked how many there were.

This is a very well worded presentation of why I feel Retro has a high likelihood of flipping scum. My vote and simo's vote seem to be one and the same, because I also agree with his other points. Simo is also one of the few MSers who actually clearly understands what WIFOM is. Most people seem to feel that a WIFOM argument is any statement that can have other possible outcomes that are non determinate. That is quite incorrect.

Well I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure Ices 'case' was a pretty standard RVS escape wagon. Not some an attempt at some sort of crazy scum finding masterstroke.

Yeah, pretty much this.

@ice/slaxx; I feel like I'm turning into foilist but for christ's sake!

I'd actually say its within your town meta that you're getting upset about this. The case against you is inconclusive, and unless more is added I definitely don't want to see you lynched. I mostly wanted to see you react to accusations against you. Granted, I feel like the points against you have some substance. At the moment I'm fairly torn about my vote on you. On one hand, you could have slipped up and admitting something you weren't supposed to know, and your defense for it wasn't something I would expect from town. On the other hand, you're reacting to pressure much like you did last game where you were town.

For the short term I'll leave my vote on you, but I will be very hesitant about any full bandwagon that hops on.

I would say my OMG SO TOWN reads would be el simo

ICE is obviously trying to pin suspicion using weak cases.

It is fascinating that simo and myself have the exact same case against Retro, where simo gets OMG SO TOWN and I'm scummy for it. That is a pretty big contradiction. I also feel like his pro Longing feeling is terrible. Other than that, I like most of what he's pointed out about the game so far.

I wasn't going to stop on you until you gave me a proper response to what I was actually accusing you of, not the nonsense you gave me instead.

For once I actually don't like this from simo. I feel like Retro has indeed responded to everything we have brought forth to him to the best of his ability. I do believe he's responded as town Retro would have. This doesn't wipe away our points against him, but you're definitely being more aggressive than need be.

Good lord there are a lot more posts to still catch up with. Bear with me!

I usually assume 3 mafia in a mini game until there is evidence otherwise.

Were you able to assume that in the first closed game you ever played? What is your feeling about his absolute wording ("The three mafia") that he used?

Pretty sure Elleran is scum, saying you have a gut scum read on someone who voted you with giving no reason why isn't exactly a town indicator. Also not following up with a vote is even woirse, IMO. Just shows you're afraid to vote. Especially when your vote is nowhere else.

This. I didn't have any read on Elleran yet, but this is absolutely true. He is now free to come back and join any Slaxx bandwagon he wants because he "had a gut scum read". Definitely scummy.

Retro, you're absolutely right in that I have a pretty strong town-gut read on you. There are only a few things that give me a scum-gut read on you, and they were all centered around a certain point in time, and were involved with that "too scummy to be scum" logic. However, there is some logic that points to you having a higher likelihood to flip scum than others, which is why my vote is where it is.

I like Retro's town read on DH. It has good logic behind it. The point will obviously be null if Retro flips scum, but for the time being I agree.

This is something, I've seen mafia do in my last game.

I know you're referring to me. I vote players for lack of activity all the time during day 1 regardless of alignment.

These sayings are all being used correctly, you used extensive WIFOM, AtE and OMGUS as detailed above and they point to a player who may not be scum but is certainly being economical with the truth, does not want to face the facts.

I agree, Retro saying that simo's case is canned because of catchphrases isn't really very compelling. Simo used all of his points correctly and did indeed have a decent case on you.

Are you saying that these tell's do not exist because user's have created the Wiki? This is ridiculous, these tells are as valid as any other, Too Town is a known fallacy, AtE is a well documented argument flaw outside of Mafia and WIFOM is well documented outside of Mafia. I would love for you to try and argue that the content on the Wiki is bogus and discredit's the case.

I also completely agree with this, for more or less the same reasons as stated above.

I'll make a quick TL;DR post right after this that gives clear and concise positions on players.

[ICEninja]

TL;DR to my last post:

I have an overall town gut read on Retro, but there's a log of logic pointing him to scum. My meta read on him is town, but I don't hugely rely on a single game's worth of meta, particularly since that was an awful game.

One of the reasons I have a town gut read on Retro is his case against Sweep. I like it. Sweep's posts are alright, but Retro made some very compelling points about Sweep that makes me suspect he is scum.

Contrary to what Benmage said about being the best player among us, considering the posts currently existing in the first 8 pages, I'd say he's easily one of the worst.

Longing's case, as well as diddin's parrot shortly after, on me seems to be completely based on the fact that I made an RVS escaping vote. This is absolutely terrible.

Simo looks fairly town to me. He said a thing or 2 that I didn't like, but overall I don't have much against him.

Slaxx is hard for me to read. I'll ISO him in the near future.

Elleran looks pretty scummy to me for his stance against Slaxx.

[Benmage]

Hey guys...i feel like i got hit by a truck today. Gonna have todo my catch-up tomorrow. This is my #1 site priority.