Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[Benmage]

Contrary to what Benmage said about being the best player among us, considering the posts currently existing in the first 8 pages, I'd say he's easily one of the worst.

Why, because it was the weekend and today I'm tired from work. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[el simo]

ICE: Has come under a lot of pressure for his 'weak' cases. Was given a lot of strop because of his first post, attacking someone during the RVS. What gives away his intentions in this post is the comment he made before he commented on Retro. "and that the only way the RVS becomes helpful is when someone makes a vote or accusation that isn't actually all that random." He then goes on to make an accusation that isn't random and isn't misplaced imo either. To me this is a valid reason for his vote and it definitely did bring us out of the RVS. I don't see anything scummy from this. He was also attacked because of building a "weak case" against Retro based on the slip. How ever notice that he didn't vote you because of the slip, he voted you after you tried to defend your slip. He, like me and a few others, didn't buy your defence. This isn't scummy to me either. Has also been attacked because he is lurking, but to me it looks a lot more like inactivity as to lurking. The few posts he did make were good posts where he brought new content to the discussion, not just posting every now and again saying sorry I'll post later and then just parroting information. I definitely don't find him scummy, but he hasn't posted enough for me to book him as a townie yet either.

---

Diddin: Posts are few and far between and don't contain much information. Hasn't provided anything new to discussion and as DH said is just parroting. This quote made me want to cry:

After a full readthrough I find the slaxx/Retro buddying to be too blatant to come from scumbuddies. If one of them flips scum the other is probably town tbh.

There is so much wrong with this I'm almost sure I don't even have to explain myself. Not only is the logic full of fallacies but it's a real poor attempt to clear someone in the event of a scum flip. If Diddin flips scum I'd be a lot more suspicious of Retro and Slaxx. He has the time to suck up to DH but doesn't have the time to do a proper read on the game and provide us with some more insight. His last post was just blatant copy cat. Very scummy read.

---

Sweep: Got a bit of pressure for his random generator vote. I've done this before as town myself so it doesn't strike me as very suspicious. I know ICE attacked him for it but when I did it as town I also got attacked for it so that doesn't really make me suspicious of ICE either. I maintain my views about ICEs vote. If I recall correctly he was accused of parroting, but he was the one to bring up the Slaxx/Retro buddying. Not that I agree with him that they were buddying, but he definitely wasn't parroting this information and I can see how he came to this conclusion, so it doesn't strike me as suspicious. It also gave me a great opportunity to get some reads on Retro, which I'll get to later. Just like ICE and Retro did, he got confused about my case against Retro. I believe this is mostly due to Retros reaction to my vote, which lead them to believe I was voting him for the reasons Retro stated, which I've made clear several times now that I most certainly was not. It's from his fourth post where he starts to smell to me. Posts are short and irrelevant, starts parroting information, does a really poor iso and all the players, but I think he improves after that. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was the one who first claimed that ICEs vote on him was a gambit? If so +town points for him. His defence is claimed to be weak but he raises some very good points. You can't read into tone of posts because these are things you make up in your head. To get an unbiased read you HAVE to ignore any sort of emotion you might associate with someones post when you read them. This is something Retro clearly struggles to do and I think it is confusing his read. His last part of his last post sums up my feelings pretty well about Retro, but I'll get to that later. My read on Sweep isn't clear, I've seen some scum but I've also seen some town. Neutral for now.

---

Elleran:This was easy. Elleran is guilty of a classic scum tell I call actively lurking. It's when scum post often enough to not get prodded, but posts always contain very little information, mostly just parroted, and lots of I'm sorry I'll post later. It's an easy way to go by unnoticed and to get the town arguing between themselves. Very scummy read.

---

Retro: Oh boy... Seeing as I've discussed you so much this is only going to address your last few posts, beginning with #173.

This posts shows me that you seem to firmly believe that I am voting you because of your playstyle. You need to grow up here and realize that playstyle is not an excuse for poor logic and scummy behaviour. It's like an artist saying, "oh but that's my style" when he is being criticised on something he's done wrong. WIFOM is not a playstyle, logical fallacies are not "advanced logic" that I don't understand, they are well documented errors in arguments that are often used by scum to try make cases out of nothing or try defend themselves when they can't. You also did not address my points because everytime you tried to defend yourself you got so hung up on the scum buddy relationship mentioned by Sweep that you seemed to forget why I was even voting for you. You didn't address my accusations against your logic and when I finally pin pointed it you just gave up, had a cry and called me stupid. This IS scummy. It's called an attack on the player and it is used by scum to try discredit someone's argument by demeaning the person who made it.

As for post #190, I can give you my views on the rest of your reads if you want, but until requested I'm just going to focus on the ones that bother me.

Your reads are biased. You can not say that someone is town because they think you are town and that someone is scum because they think you are scum. Not only is it full of WIFOM but it makes it oh so easy for scum to manipulate you. Now scum know how you think and know that if they want to lose a vote the best way to go about it is to tell you they think you are town. Through out the post you constantly complain about how we find your slip scummy, but this is not the truth. As we have said numerous times, it is your defence of your slip that we found scummy. No one had even voted you until you tried to defend the claims made against you. You also claim that Slaxx felt less townie to you because he took too long to say your slip was a null tell. This is another logical fallacy called burden of proficiency, which is when a player doesn't live up to the expectations held of them and are therefore viewed as scummy.

Oh yay, your read on me.

You claim my arguments are canned, that I've come into this game with prepared cases and I'm trying to make them fit. I would love to know how you can make this read on someone, it seems to be something that is very difficult to prove and incredibly subjective as it could be said about anyone really.

You claim I'm using buzz words to disregard peoples arguments. That I'm trying to discredit the source of the entire town. I would like you to quote me to prove that I'm am discrediting the entire town. There will be consequences if you can't, but I can only get to that after you've quoted me.

You claim that you DID answer all my accusations. This is a blatant lie. The made ONE statement that was relevant at the beginning of your first defence, the rest of it had nothing to do with what I said. You even stated so yourself that you came to the wrong conclusion about my posts. The ONLY time you addressed me was after I had poked you round enough where you didn't actually address the arguments and just instead said I was wrong. Again, I would like you to quote yourself where you answered my points about your use of logical fallacies, because not once you did. You just repeatedly talked about your relationship with Slaxx and the RVS which had nothing to do with my case.

You also repeated use words like, "sorta" and "sometimes" and "kinda" to try and refute my points against you. This is nonsense, you have clearly displayed text book tells and to say they "sorta kinda" fit something that scum do "sometimes" is rubbish. These are well documented, classic scum tells. To disregard them as something scum "sometimes" do is to disregard the entire history of mafiascum.net and many other sources of mafia. I find it unbelievable that instead of trying to refute the arguments made against you, you just tell us that these undeniable scum that have been well used and well developed through the entire history of this game, is just not scummy and is instead "straight forward discussions about typical scum behaviour that shows me and Slaxx aren't buddies" which AGAIN goes on to complain about a point that has nothing to do with my case on you.

You constantly refer to the wiki as if it doesn't mean anything, but what you don't realize is the only reason I linked the wiki was because you weren't addressing my arguments and that made me think that perhaps you didn't know what WIFOM was and hadn't heard of these logical fallacies. I was NOT using it to back up my argument, I don't need to, everybody knows about WIFOM and can name almost all the logical fallacies listed in the wiki, I linked it for YOU so that you could stop rambling on and would address my accusations. You even go as far as to try discredit the wiki! The mafiascum.net bible it self! You are absolutely correct that it is a written by users, this means if someone writes something that isn't wrong someone else is going to go in and fix it. The wiki is full proof and I challenge to make a thread in mafia discussions proving that something in that wiki is wrong. I am 100% certain that you will be shot down in every attempt.

You now try to flip it back on me, and claim I'm not responding to you. And this is absolutely true, because I'm not going to respond to something that is completely irrelevant to me. You did NOT address your use of logical fallacies, you just continually rambled on about your relationship with Slaxx and the RVS, both of which have nothing to do with my case.

You also claim that I used WIFOM to argue against you. This is incorrect, there is nothing WIFOMy about scum not conscientiously realizing they are buddying up. I actually laughed at this trying to figure out your line of though, "but scum would WANT us to think they don't conscientiously buddy up with their partners!"

Also, the difference between you and those quotes you made, you're trying to defend yourself with this nonsense, they're not. They were also pretty small one liners that added to their cases, they weren't their entire cases like yours are.

---

Now to summarise.

My initial vote on Retro was more of a pressure vote than anything and the only reason I left it on him was because he had not yet addressed my argument on him. But his continual over reactions, inability to address my case and continual use logical fallacies to not only defend himself but to clear others as townie as well has made my vote a bit more firm. I'm leaving it on him for now but quote honestly it could easily swing over to either:

Diddin, what stood out to me more than his lurking and parroting was that quote I posted above. If he flips scum I am definitely going to place an irremovable vote on Retro.

And Elleran, typical scummy fence sitter. This tell has proved to be very accurate for me in the past. My strike rate with this tell is second only to something else which I won't mention because I look forward to catching scum with it later.

---

Everybody else: Town reads on DH, neutral on Slaxx, Iamnobody, Benmage and Jase need to post more.

---

Siigh more posts were made as I wrote this. I will address those later.

Mod ~ Fixed a hr tag.

[TheLonging]

You also give Longing town points because (and I'm paraphrasing) he was being too obviously scummy for him to be scum.

THIS IS BULLSHIT.

You never, ever, ever give anyone town points for this. EVER! For example, imagine in a game player X when at L-1 and asked to claim, claims scum. Do you instantly clear him because 'There's no way scum would do something so obvious'? No. You do not. Or if player Y sees the impending lynch on player X and says 'Player A has been really townie so far, but he's obviously going for an easy mislynch on X, it must all be an act. Let's lynch him instead.' He does not become the towniest guy in the village. Scummy is equal to scummy. There is no such thing as too scummy to be scum. It does not exist.

IT DOES NOT EXIST!

Meta. It works in cases like this.

[TheLonging]

But Ice voted for Sweep OUT of RVS. He used a case on Sweep based on RVS votes really. That's kind of, you know, STUPID at best.

In my experience, someone making a vote out of RVS actions or RVS responses is what ends the RVS. This isn't useless or stupid. I obviously didn't believe in the case, as the unvote came quickly. I did, however, managed to pull a few players in to an awkward bandwagon, thus getting a better read out of them. Would you say what I did was anti-town, considering all that?

Oh yes

So the only way I could possibly think Sweep is scum barring any investigative reports is if ICE somehow got EXTREMELY lucky catching scum based on their RVS votes.

Any time anyone throws a weak, moderately random (discussion engaging, the purpose of the vote was to incite him to post content) vote, there is about a 1/3 or 1/4 chance depending on the setup of actually landing vote on scum. It was no different with my vote than any other so far, really. Why are you so convinced Sweep is town? At the point in the game when you declared Sweep probably town, he had done so little that the only possible way you could have indication that he is town is by having scum information.

You know how numbers don't work in cases like this? They do in other cases but not this one, so you're pulling information out of your ASS. And, you know how mislynches are led on townies who are generally scummy? Well this is a case where I can see that Sweep votes are wrong, because his defenses may be weak, but the way he's going about them is TOWN, which I think you people are forgetting is a key part in this.

I think Longing's arguments are completely crap, as I placed a vote on someone with the purpose of generating discussion. That isn't scummy.

LET ME KEEP HAMMERING MY POINTS IN OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL PEOPLE ACTUALLY REALIZE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. OH WAIT, YOU'RE NOT GONNA BOTHER ANYWAYS AND CALL IT CRAP. YUP. b(''b)

[TheLonging]

Longing's case, as well as diddin's parrot shortly after, on me seems to be completely based on the fact that I made an RVS escaping vote. This is absolutely terrible.

IT WAS NEVER BASED JUST ON THIS, IT WAS ALSO BASED ON YOU BEING SCUMMY, AND YOUR DEFENSES BEING SCUMMY AS WELL, MISREP OUT THE ASS WHY DON'T YOU

*breathes in*

*breathes out*

[Slaxx]

I just realized TL says ICE is more scummy than me but he is voting ICE

Also I love how for sure everyone is about my case on Elleran and yet no one has joined me in my vote on him. Typical scum wagon: hard to get going d1.

[Slaxx]

I mean me. W/e

[DemonHybrid]

TL, as an aside, don't put your statements bolded in the quote boxes. Generally unfavorable.

[Benmage]

Sweep made a decent post, and I like his point about Slaxx's buddying with Retro. I however disagree with it somewhat on the basis of knowing that these 2 players have a history together and Retro enjoys sharing banter in game with friends of his. At least I have seen him do it as town, so it is a nullish tell on his end. Slaxx, on the other hand, I do not have a meta read of and may be suspicious of depending on future interactions with certain players.

That looks way to obvious. I'd go with altogether nullish.

Not sure if this has been addressed already but I’ll drop what info I have instead of waiting to be fully caught up because people are getting ancy in the pancy. But as for setup speculation and scum. 2 mafia, 1 SK is plausible. I’d say yes 3 scum is the norm. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a 4 scum scumteam in a mini, but 2 mafia teams of 2 is plausible.

I don’t like el simo’s vote in post 71. There’s a lot of words, but if I am reading it correctly it’s based on wifom about him acting overtly buddy buddy. The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Also: Ben and I are not going to get along.

?

Not sure I really like retro’s defense of himself in post 74…sure what he’s saying is true but the way I read it feels off. First unnecessary:

Note: Sorry for the wall of text, but if you're gonna suspect me you should probably get used to it. >.< I typically have a lot to say.

Second feels like AtE:

Something to keep in mind: If you look hard enough, you'll always be able to find someting that somehow can tie into a possible scumtell.

Yes…was he says is true, but something doesn’t sit well wth me. It’s early game you have to go off small tells.

Alright, time to get you guys to go bandwagon someone else!

This really sits bad with me. I don't really mind some pressure on myself as town. I can usually see easy attacks trying to sneak onto the wagon...i.e. scum. This seems like your sweating over just a little pressure.

I’d vote retro now for this…but hate voting when not caught up in a game incase certain things are addressed or someone demonstrates themselves to be scummier.

I'm only on pg 4, i'll see if i can truck through a little more.

[el simo]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

[el simo]

EBWOP

I am the most suspicious of Sweep at the moment because of his last post where he implied that ICE was town even though he hasn't supplied any evidence to support this. I think this might have been a bit of a slip. Perhaps Sweep as mafia knows that ICE isn't a partner. If you look at the tone in his last post its pretty obvious that he doesn't think ICE is mafia.

This is a good point. He did seem pretty sure that I'm town, and hasn't said anything about actually having a town read on me. had he mentioned something to the effect that he found my posts to imply town that is one thing, but he simply made the assumption. This is to be considered.[/quote]

This is wrong. In post #123 he clearly states:

The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.

For once I actually don't like this from simo. I feel like Retro has indeed responded to everything we have brought forth to him to the best of his ability. I do believe he's responded as town Retro would have. This doesn't wipe away our points against him, but you're definitely being more aggressive than need be.

I would like you to quote where Retro has addressed his use of logical fallacies, prior to #156 where he finally addresses it by calling me stupid.

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

[Benmage]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

[Slaxx]

DH, you're most likely town. Hop on the Elleran choo choo with me. Many lulz will be had.

[el simo]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

Care to explain?

[DemonHybrid]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

Wrong. A good defense to WIFOM is to say just how dumb WIFOM is.

DH, you're most likely town. Hop on the Elleran choo choo with me. Many lulz will be had.

I'm thinking about it. I gotta get all my ducks in a row with the active lurking, because there be a TON of it this game.

[Benmage]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

Care to explain?

There's not a whole lot to it. You can't base cases solely on wifom. You mention them, and have them weigh in on issues when deciding things altogether. But alone...hell no. Because like i said wifom accusations are often answered with wifom defenses. SO the whole back and fourth usually becomes very circular redundant and a waste of space/time. I have seen people tunnel hard on wifom, and there is nothing more frustrating than being on the receiving side of it because there is little substance to defend from.

[Benmage]

The problem with basing accusations on wifom, is the defense to them is wifom. So it’s just a lot of zzzzzz.

Does this make WIFOM any less scummy though?

100% yes.

Wrong. A good defense to WIFOM is to say just how dumb WIFOM is.

Well yeah...that's not necessarily the defense...that's the conclusion.

[Slaxx]

Diddin and Elleran, both of whom I am fine voting (That gut read on Diddin is long gone in light of recent events) are really the only active lurkers. Other people are either Dumb, Smart, Overzealous, or not posting. Or some combination of the four.

[el simo]

Oh absolutely I agree, for the most part. WIFOM on it's own doesn't amount to much (I have one exception that I'm keeping for later). But the thing about this specific situation is a) there is a lot more to him than just WIFOM and b) the WIFOM was his defence before anybody even accused him of using WIFOM. To me a WIFOM defence (that is, before being accused of it) is as good as saying, you know what you're right, you've caught me I'm scum, gg.

[Benmage]

Slaxx, The thread opened up on Friday...today is the only real day, day. I hate all lurkers and am a proponent of their lynching sooner than later. But i'd cut some slack and give people a few more days.

[Benmage]

Oh absolutely I agree, for the most part. WIFOM on it's own doesn't amount to much (I have one exception that I'm keeping for later). But the thing about this specific situation is a) there is a lot more to him than just WIFOM and b) the WIFOM was his defence before anybody even accused him of using WIFOM. To me a WIFOM defence (that is, before being accused of it) is as good as saying, you know what you're right, you've caught me I'm scum, gg.

Ugh, this is why i wish i was caught up or more versed in this game...I'm just gonna have to pause and comeback tomorrow all caught up.

Cause i thought you accuse and vote him in post 71, and his defense than comes in post 74...I am also not aware of yet, or recalling the other things he is guilty of.

[Slaxx]

Ben, its not that people haven't posted. Its that Elleran has had the time to make excuses, then says he has a gut scum read on the only person FoSing him, but doesn't explain why or follow it up with a vote. He even explicitly states its not because of my vote on him (because saying it makes it true). Then its also the fact that two or three people has said that's obvscum but haven't voted him yet. This is like textbook scumhunting 101 here.

[Benmage]

. Then its also the fact that two or three people has said that's obvscum but haven't voted him yet.

Again, not aware of all this....but this caught my eye. Why do you think people called Elleran obvscum, but didnt place votes?

[diddin]

Considerably more lurky than ICE with the same amount of suspicion pinning and bad cases. You're the one who should die.

Considerably more lurky involves posting twice as many posts? Please can you explain how each of my cases is weak and the basis to your vote apart from I think he is scum.

Re-reading the game this sticks out like a sore thumb for me,

@ el simo; Then there really isn't much more to argue. It's getting to the "OMG NO UR WRONG" state of this argument. Your whole case for me can be summed up into one thing: Playstyle. You're unfamiliar with the way I play, so you immediately amuse I'm scum.

This is lynchworthy on its own but then the ad hominen attacks and sarcastic comments just confirm my suspicions that Retro is very suspicious.

Unvote

VOTE: Retrospective

Jace and Retro, I also want to know your case for voting for me.

How is that lynchworthy on its own? Why do you feel the need to unvote and revote for the same person you're voting. Your tunneling on Retro is NOT excusable just because you now apparently have a case on him. Sarcasm is NOT a scumtell. As a matter of fact, it is hypocritical that you are attacking Retro for not making a case yet when you barely had one with any original thought before hend?

After rethinking this Sweep is more likely scum than Retro and I doubt they would bus at this stage as scum partners, so my suspicion of Retro has been alleviated quite a bit.

Vote: Sweep

@Haters hatin on my posting habits. I'm a busy guy. When I have a lot of school work I just can't post very much. Even when I don't I usually make shorter posts. Just because I don't make a ton of text-wall ISO's doesn't mean I'm a bad poster.



inb4DH

[Benmage]

EBWOP: Also who made those obvscum statements?