Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[Sweep]

your arguments don't even have substance.

Are you defending the fact that your defences contain logical flaws?

It bothers me that Elleran didn't claim a pr. I would expect mafia in this situation to do so. Especially because their is a pretty good likleyhood he could come up with something that wouldn't be cc'd.

I am not sure what to think about this. Surely even if a player does not follow the strategy you would expect from Scum, it does not change your stance on them. Scum can do whatever they want.

Also your incessant mentioning of me "parroting" is not a reason to discredit me. (and not a reason why I am scummy because I am not parroting). You are so angry because someone suspects you and you think that being angry will help clear your name.

---

Not gonna lie, just posting to avoid prod.

Are you too busy to post or just actively lurking? This post reeks of actively lurking to me, he posts saying he is not going to add any additional content but with no reason why.

[Retrospective]

I am not sure what to think about this. Surely even if a player does not follow the strategy you would expect from Scum, it does not change your stance on them. Scum can do whatever they want.

Did I say anything about getting people off Elleran? No. I even said we shouldn't. I noticed and wanted everyone's opinion. Good luck trying to twist this into a scumtell though.

Also your incessant mentioning of me "parroting" is not a reason to discredit me. (and not a reason why I am scummy because I am not parroting). You are so angry because someone suspects you and you think that being angry will help clear your name.

This is why I think you're dumb. I made two very large posts as to why you are mafia that have nothing to do with you consistent recycling of old arguments. Your style of defense and attempt to put suspicion back on me is just icing on top of the cake. Perhaps you should reread, because you're obviously confused.

[Elleran]

Here's my response to your case against me:

The critiques against TheLonging seem to have originated from some opinions TL said about scums. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this is a case worth arguing for pages and pages for. An opinion is an opinion. You can't honestly expect to try to argue your way into changing another player's mentality.

Longing's opinion is that my "case" and vote on Sweep with the purpose of getting us out of the RVS, which I quickly abandoned as soon as I saw something I felt was a genuine scum tell, was scummy. Trying to clear this as opinion is silly, because Longing is flat out wrong. What I did wasn't scummy, and he really doesn't have any argument that demonstrates that it is. You can't dismiss how bad someone's argument because he has some opinion.

Then he unvotes for no purpose except for the fact that "RVS is over". While this isn't inherently scummy, it is indeed useless. He's posting enough to be playing, but hasn't really contributed anything at this point. The game is moving fast, so it's understandable, but it's definitely a bad start.

My unvote was purely for RVS reasons. There was no need to maintain that vote. Although it can be argued that I shouldn't have bothered, but that's not really an argument.

Slaxx, your play has been likewise aggressive--however, I'm getting a gut scum-read off of you. I don't know why and it has nothing to do with your vote on me. I'm just getting a bad feeling about you.

Being aggressive is almost exactly why he gave el simo a town read. Now he's using absolutely no reasoning to give a player a scum read. He made a statement about it "having nothing to do with your vote on me", but that's probably just to make it look like he isn't OMGUS suspecting Slaxx.

Those are different "aggressives". Although Slaxx and el simo are both quite involved in the game, el simo has been keeping intense focus and pressure on those he was after while Slaxx has been more aggressive in his tone in his posts rather than his play. Slaxx's responses had more 'anger' or 'frustration' in many of his posts (thus the use of AtE as many other players mentioned).

He mentioned Retro in this post twice, but didn't give his opinion on Retro. Especially considering how he never actually does this at any point in the rest of his ISO, it is strange that he directly referred to Retro.

I mentioned this because DH mentioned that we may have been scums together. I was just addressing something that I noticed.

Anyway, Slaxx. Your responses are getting more and more fiery. Why so serious?

This is his justification for voting Slaxx. If you ask me, it looks like an RVS vote, however he clearly stated that we were leaving the RVS when he unvoted, so it couldn't have possibly been one. He previously mentioned some kind of scum read on Slaxx, but hasn't justified it. He still hasn't, yet he's voting for him.

Like I said, aggressive attitude. That was a shallow justification, but a justification regardless. I've moved on from him because I have found a more scummy player.

Now right away in his next post, Elleran does what I actually feel to be the scummiest thing he's done so far. Firstly, he regrets making his post that voted for Slaxx. Of course scum would regret a post that causes suspicion on them. He blames it on being tired, which doesn't seem to track. Being tired doesn't make you vote for someone without explaining why. Furthermore, he doesn't justify his vote after. What he does do is actually throw some dirt on Slaxx through this statement:

How will you be clear after my flip? Are you saying that no matter which I alignment I flip, you've already considered all implications and have decided that my alignment is meaningless? You sound extremely sure of yourself when you say that.

This is actually a justifiable concern. This is the first, and I believe only, thing he's brought forward at all that indicates anything scummy Slaxx has done. What does he do later in the post? He votes for someone else. The first time he can actually bring ANYTHING forward about Slaxx, he's simultaneously backpedaling and attacking someone else. This looks awful to me.

No comment about the first portion. I was really tired and busy that day/night. I admitted that I regretted that post because I did, lol. After I posted it and turned the computer off, I thought, "why did I post that?" Also, I don't understand your point about regretting a post after I posted. Why would only a scum regret what he had posted if it attracted attention? Why wouldn't a PR or even a townie not regret attracting attention to himself? A scum would be unhappy for obvious reasons. However, a townie will also regret taking away focus from real scumhunting and having to spend unnecessary time trying to defend himself and justifying (or not justifying) a stupid post that he regrets having posted. Your logic is flawed.

Next, he makes a case on diddin that completely blows my mind.

First, you assumed that, when I compared my relatively passive playing style to el simo's, I was calling out el simo as scum.

He did? I think you made this up because I can't find anything that even remotely indicates that diddin did this.

Diddin said:

Playing a serious game is far from a scumtell.

I believed that he was referring to my reference to el simo and his intense style of playing. I thought he was accusing me of believing that "serious play = scum, thus el simo = serious = scum".

By arguing for text walls, are you simultaneously arguing that all text walls are full of contents and should be valued more than shorter posts?

First of all, you're making things up again: he hasn't argued for walls of text. He simply stated that you shouldn't play mafia if you don't like them, obviously because the game contains them in droves. Secondly, you're making up the possibility that he's saying text walls are full of contents. Nothing even remotely close to this has been discussed or implied. If you look at diddin's posts, he doesn't write a lot. He definitely quotes more than he needs to, but he isn't making walls of text. What gives you any indication what-so-ever that he is arguing for this?

You FoSed me after assuming something hostile beyond my words. Why would a townie assume such a big threat from this apparently harmless post? Your assumption gives me the impression that you are more paranoid or aggressive in your mindset.

He did? What makes you say that? He FoSed you because you placed a really really bad vote. You did something suspicious, and he suspects you. That doesn't mean you're a threat, it just means you did something scummy. The fact that he FoSed you for doing something scummy makes him paranoid?

You seem ready to jump on any post and your mind is extrapolating words from posts that don't say such things.

I shouldn't even need to comment on this, but the irony in this burns so much.

This is stemming partly from a misunderstanding. I misunderstood diddin's post, which made me post a case that wasn't completely true. No irony.

Elleran makes another post attempting to justify his vote.

He actually made assumptions about my post... And those assumptions are mostly hostile, as if he's looking for hostility against him.

Hostility against diddin? You never mentioned anything about hostility towards diddin. You made some fantasy about diddin finding hostility in your attack on Slaxx. How was diddin involved before this? How could he have possibly felt any hostility? Where did he indicate any hostility?

Because of this seemingly paranoid mindset, I have a reason to believe that diddin is a scum.

And you call him paranoid?

I might change my vote in the future depending on how things go.

Then you give yourself a chance to do yet more backpedaling in the future. Scum like to give themselves options, for sure.

The next post just confuses me.

I thought you had mentioned el simo's style of play when you said "serious play".

Looking in the context, I cant find a single possible way to jump to this conclusion.

You didn't specify which player's play and thus I am not liable for not understanding which you were referring to.

Maybe not, but he isn't liable for you assuming he meant a player that wasn't the subject of discussion or had anything to do with his attack on you.

Thus the misunderstanding.

[Retrospective]

Not done reading your post but

I mentioned this because DH mentioned that we may have been scums together. I was just addressing something that I noticed.

When was this?

[ICEninja]

Elleran, I simply don't see how you could have made the mistake you made. It just doesn't track.

Let me explain.

In your first "real" post, you made this statement:

I'm getting a town read from el simo. Your aggressive/intensive play seems either just experienced mafia or townie. Your willingness to bang heads against players you don't deem acting townie enough is radiating with townie-ness. However, I agree with Retro. Most of your intenseness is focused on Retro... Not enough to be considered tunneling, but close.

Then you made the post you regretted, which contained this statement:

Your responses are getting more and more fiery. Why so serious?

You then voted on this, making it an attack. You then made this statement:

I'm taking stances on things, just not as quickly and adamantly as you are. Also, my play style tends to be more passive than aggressive (a clear difference between your style and mine).

This was obviously NOT an attack on simo, and very clearly you defending yourself. Diddin responded to you using the following words:

Playing a serious game is far from a scumtell.

You attacked someone for being fiery and serious, and also defended yourself from someone saying you were too passive. How could you possibly have interpreted diddin's comment to refer to your defense from simo? You used the word "serious" when voting for Slaxx.

I believed that he was referring to my reference to el simo and his intense style of playing. I thought he was accusing me of believing that "serious play = scum, thus el simo = serious = scum".

Or maybe he was accusing you of believing that serious play = scum, because your vote on Slaxx was because he was playing fiery and "serious". This really seems to go beyond simple misunderstanding.

Also, you sounded like you were using your regret for the last post as a means of defense for posting it. "Oh I was tired, I didn't really mean that". Sure a townie could regret drawing attention to himself that might distract from real scum hunting, but scum would regret it a lot more. Therefore you admitting that you regretted it reveals a mindset that more fits the scum mindset than a townie mindset.

The other parts of your defense are pretty lacking, too. Why did you unvote without attacking another player? There was plenty going on that you could have used to scum hunt and pressure. You did nothing.

You also did not explain at all how Slaxx's aggressive posting was scummy and simo's aggressive posting was town. You simply said they were different, and what was a town tell in one player was a scum tell in the other player. This is a pretty massive double standard here.

[Jase]

@Jase
You say that "hanging onto a sure lynch" like I don't believe that Retro is scum, the opposite is true, I still think Retro is scum.

Yeah, you're not scum because you're town right? That dispels my suspicion then. Yep. Well sort of. Actually not at all. I didn't say I thought you were town pushing a bad wagon. I think you're scum who's still trying to get what must have looked like a guaranteed lynch at first. How in any way does 'I think he's scum' refute that?

[Benmage]

El simo, in post 350 you say you’re willing to hammer El? Is that true?

[Retrospective]

@ICE; On a scale from one to ten, how sure of you that Elleran is scum?

We need more content from TL, el simo, DH, diddin and slaxx

[Sweep]

You just completely missed my point, my point being that you saying that I parrot arguments every post is an effort to discredit me (tell me it isn't?). You then ignore this and explain that you have other reasons to think I am scum (which I am aware of but have nothing to do with this).

Also, please respond to my first quote too (if it is not too "dumb" to answer).

[DemonHybrid]

I need to read up. I had an observation to go to today, I'll give an update when I get caught up with my other games.

[Slaxx]

I have said all I needed to say. The more Ell talks the more he proves my point.

[Retrospective]

Also, please respond to my first quote too (if it is not too "dumb" to answer).

It was. If you want to bring something new to the table go ahead. But I'm tired of running in circles with you. Find something new or you're not gonna get another response from me.

[Slaxx]

inb4 retro and sweep is town on town

[Sweep]

Also, please respond to my first quote too (if it is not too "dumb" to answer).

It was. If you want to bring something new to the table go ahead. But I'm tired of running in circles with you. Find something new or you're not gonna get another response from me.

Then can you please stop telling lies about the case against you as it is not "baseless" at all.

[Jase]

Then can you please stop telling lies about the case against you as it is not "baseless" at all.

If you want to prove that perhaps you should rehash your case in a single post.

[ICEninja]

El simo, in post 350 you say you’re willing to hammer El? Is that true?

I am also curious about this.

@ICE; On a scale from one to ten, how sure of you that Elleran is scum?

In all honesty, 5 or 6. In terms of day 1 scum picks, this isn't the strongest I've had for sure (as all my very strong ones have been right) but it isn't the weakest case I've made either. The problem with it is that a significant amount of my case against Elleran involves me not believing that he could have made such a weird error and have it just be an honest mistake.

I definitely feel like he will have a higher likelihood of flipping scum than any other player, however, and his flip will also tell us quite a lot about other players (diddin, Slaxx and simo in particular).

The fact that Elleran's wagon is moving slowly is actually a good indication to me, as it doesn't feel like scum are jumping on the bandwagon trying to see a mislynch through. It definitely doesn't feel like that weak of a case here, especially considering a lot of the other cases that people are holding votes for.

Mod, can I assume we'll have a replacement for Iamnobody soon if he doesn't post?

Mod ~ Iamnobody has 5 hours and 20 minutes in which to post before he is automatically replaced.

[el simo]

El simo, in post 350 you say you’re willing to hammer El? Is that true?

I am also curious about this.

No actually, I wouldn't hammer, it was all just a ploy!

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it?

Anyway, I actually feel he has sufficiently explained his double standard on aggressiveness. ICE seems to feel that it hasn't be explained sufficiently but I disagree. In fact I believe you are being quite misleading here. After rereading I realised Ell referred to me as aggressive, he referred to Slaxx as serious and fiery with the serious part reading to me as an obv Batman joke/reference (ie not that serious). You interpreted this as aggressive and we all just sort of went with it but I feel their are distinct differences. Fiery clearly implies what Ell has explained, at that being more so of his mood and 'tone' of posts, where as aggressive implies more so style of play. This matches Ells explanation just perfectly and I feel there is no double standards being played here. I actually struggle to understand your point on this matter and fine your misleading use of the word aggressive quite scummy. Scum points for ICE!

For me this only leaves the scum lynch statement and back peddling, which leads me to taking back my statement that I would hammer Ell. I no longer feel confident in his lynch and I feel we're being pulled by the end of the nose here just a little bit. I will have to do a reread on ICEs case later this evening to see how many other misreps there are.

[Slaxx]

Back peddling is a pretty strong tell.

[Slaxx]

I love how you are only paying attention to people who attack Ell and easy targets like Jase. It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy and RIGHT inside.

[Benmage]

I don’t like el simo’s wishy-washy passive play. He talks about thinking between diddin and Elleran while basically placing a holding vote on Jase. One vote doesn’t do anything…one vote isn’t pressure; it certainly doesn’t show an interest to lynch or real pressure when you claim it as a pressure vote.

Jase do X (x being post more)
Jase does X
Vote gone

It’s not very impressive play. Instead of taking a harder position he does the easy thing of saying he’ll hammer….If he wanted to hammer why not just vote? Basically if others showed a stronger interest you set yourself up for an easy hop on.

As a more experienced player you should know one vote isn’t pressure. Claiming it a pressure vote virtually nullifies what you’re trying to accomplish. Not to mention there are also other less-contributing guilty parties.

Unvote vote el simo

[Benmage]

I love how you are only paying attention to people who attack Ell

and easy targets like Jase.

It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy and RIGHT inside.

Ohhhhh beat me to the punch. Bolding what I'm saying.

[Slaxx]

Don't forget, Benmage, he retracts the part about him hammering in his most recent post.

[Benmage]

Don't forget, Benmage, he retracts the part about him hammering in his most recent post.

Exactly, because it didn't gain steam.

[el simo]

I love how you are only paying attention to people who attack Ell and easy targets like Jase. It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy and RIGHT inside.

And you aren't?

I don’t like el simo’s wishy-washy passive play. He talks about thinking between diddin and Elleran while basically placing a holding vote on Jase. One vote doesn’t do anything…one vote isn’t pressure; it certainly doesn’t show an interest to lynch or real pressure when you claim it as a pressure vote.

Jase do X (x being post more)
Jase does X
Vote gone

It’s not very impressive play. Instead of taking a harder position he does the easy thing of saying he’ll hammer….If he wanted to hammer why not just vote? Basically if others showed a stronger interest you set yourself up for an easy hop on.

As a more experienced player you should know one vote isn’t pressure. Claiming it a pressure vote virtually nullifies what you’re trying to accomplish. Not to mention there are also other less-contributing guilty parties.

Unvote vote el simo

How lovely. Note that I never said it was a pressure vote. I even called him out as being scummy. He still isn't giving us much so my vote is still on him and Ell has defended himself sufficiently from the strongest thing we had on him which was the double standards. I'm not lynching someone because they regretted a stupid vote and they said someone was a good candidate for a scum lynch.

[el simo]

Oh and this/