Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[el simo]

So my point on you simo is accurate. Your one PRESSURE vote is worthless. It doesn't do anything on its own, and any worth or persuasion it might've held is completely diminished when you state your just waiting for him to post more.

One can demand content and still do something worthwild with their vote.

Moar simo votes.

Like vote a bandwagon you aren't even convinced by?

[el simo]

And it's NOT a pressure vote if I am voting him based on my suspicions. You can't twist this. He is actively lurking, this is scummy, thus I vote.

[RichardGHP]

Replacing Iamnobody.

[Benmage]

And it's NOT a pressure vote if I am voting him based on my suspicions. You can't twist this. He is actively lurking, this is scummy, thus I vote.

I'm only using your own words and our knowledge. Your vote is on him because you find active lurking scummy (this is true) but you've said its there until he provides more, adequate posting. So basically once he does and essentially ends his active lurking and your only suspicion you'll promptly unvote....its a pressure vote.

[Benmage]

Simo, please define for me your version of a pressure vote.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

[Sweep]

What is the difference between doing it with or without suspicion? In eyes there is none, you are still pressuring (as you clearly were) to draw a reaction.

[Jase]

El Simo: About how long have you found my activity level scummy?

Sweep: Why are you so adamant that retro is scum? Your case against him from what I can see is that 1. He reacted poorly to early pressure and 2. His arguments are flawed. Is there a part I missed? Why does this make him more scummy than anyone else.

I'll go ahead and try my hand at some analysis tomorrow(or later today as the case may be). For now though I can't be asked.

[Benmage]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

Is this an example? Could you provide another example of a pressure vote because I have never seen an rvs wagon brought to L-1 just to end the rvs.

[el simo]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

Is this an example? Could you provide another example of a pressure vote because I have never seen an rvs wagon brought to L-1 just to end the rvs.

See: my last game. I was the wagon too.

[DemonHybrid]

THE MORE WE GET TOGETHER THE HAPPIER WE'LL BE.

YOUR FRIENDS ARE MY FRIENDS AND MY FRIENDS ARE YOUR FRIENDS.

THE MORE WE GET TOGETHER THE HAPPIER WELL BEEEEEE.

lol does that mean that your scum friends are his scum friends and his scum friends are your friends? Because you know, only scums know their friends.

I agree with Slaxx. With your death kinda close, you need to stop with the joking and give us some scum reads.

To everyone else: Work swamped me, but I'll get to posting during my class. Iamnobody is off the scumlist at the moment until his replacement comes in; IAN basically didn't post at all and I have nothing to go off of.

[Benmage]

A vote purposed to push someone into doing something WITH OUT a basis for suspicion, as if you are suspicious of them your vote has a reason other than to pressure them.

IE putting a vote that puts someone at L-1 during RVS to fish out reactions and move on from RVS. Not putting your vote on someone because you find them scummy. Wanting them to post more is just a by product of your suspicion.

Is this an example? Could you provide another example of a pressure vote because I have never seen an rvs wagon brought to L-1 just to end the rvs.

See: my last game. I was the wagon too.

Wanna tell me what game that was...and do you have any other examples or a further definition, or is this only it.

[ICEninja]

In reading the past 2 pages, my eyebrows went up about 4 times reading simo's posts. He went from a town read to one of my biggest suspicions extremely quickly. Considering past events, I think he's doing his absolute best to not be on whatever wagon is the lynch today.

Firstly, there was the Retro case. That had some decent steam, and some really good points. Retro refutes some points, but is simply incapable of answering to others. The case pointed Retro at having a good likelihood of flipping scum, and still does. Nothing changed between then and now, and yet simo seems to have completely forgotten the case. He unvoted Retro simply because Retro AtE'd and complained his vote off of him. I unvoted Retro because I found another player who I felt was scummier. Simo hasn't had a single case against anyone since he unvoted Retro.

Now he's had this

wishy-washy

(don't try to tell me through the wiki that you haven't been) stance on Elleran. First Elleran isn't posting much, and simo votes him for active lurking. It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted. Simo obviously hadn't really read Elleran's posts very much, because simo had no clue what his opinon of Elleran was.

Then he decided that he'll hammer Elleran later. He didn't tell us why, or talked about what he agreed with or disagreed with, despite a large amount of pressure on simo to do so. Finally he states that one of my points against Elleran is weak or invalid or something, and therefore the entire case against Elleran is invalid, and continues to pursue Jace.

He's held his vote on Elleran until Elleran started posting. Regardless of the content, simo unvoted. He now has his vote on Jace, and has declared that he wont unvote until Jace puts forward some arbitrary posting quota. Later, simo puts in a stipulation that Jace needs to post something to make him feel like he is town in order to get the unvote. This was clearly not the case with Elleran.

Why is there a discrepancy in the way simo is treating Elleran and Jace? He felt/feels that active lurking is scummy. Simo obviously feels that Jace's active lurking is the single most damning scum tell in the game right now, because his vote on Jace is

obviously

not a pressure vote, guys. It's a weak L-6 vote on a low post count player attempting to get him to post more and will be removed once said player makes some decent posts.

This is compounded by the fact that he's ignored my inquiry about his current feelings on Retro.

Now I'm torn between Elleran, because I'm starting to feel like simo actually has a slightly higher chance of flipping scum. Unfortunately, Elleran's flip will tell us so much about other people's alignments. I'm really not sure which one I want to see lynched today, but it is safe to say that it's one or the other. I think for the moment a better likelihood of hitting scum will help the town more. I just feel like if Elleran is scum, then we're going to have an incredibly high chance of scoring 2 scum in a row. However, simo flipping scum doesn't tell us as much about Elleran's alignment than Elleran flipping scum tells us about simo's alignment.

For the time being,

unvote, vote el simo

. I'll weigh my feelings between simo and Elleran over the next day or 2.

[Slaxx]

I think they're both scum, but I still am more confident on elleran. I would explain, but his last post kind of does it for me.

[Jase]

Ok I'm going to force myself to do some analysis. I'll be going alphabetically or by request. There will probably be only one or two at a time as I don't have much time to do them.

[Jase]

El Simo: About how long have you found my activity level scummy?

[Benmage]

Ok I'm going to force myself to do some analysis. I'll be going alphabetically or by request. There will probably be only one or two at a time as I don't have much time to do them.

If times a constraint I'd say go with your scummiest reads first.

[el simo]

ICE just gave me some lovely information to work with, but before I get to him I will answer Ben and Sweep.

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion. This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue. I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

So what it comes down to is Bens word over mine. Either you think my intent to hammer was scummy or you believe it for what it really was, which was what I posted it as. Regardless of your views between me and Ben, there is absolutely no way you can believe what ICE has said, for I will now reveal how much crap he has been throwing around for the second time today.

Firstly, there was the Retro case. That had some decent steam, and some really good points. Retro refutes some points, but is simply incapable of answering to others. The case pointed Retro at having a good likelihood of flipping scum, and still does. Nothing changed between then and now, and yet simo seems to have completely forgotten the case. He unvoted Retro simply because Retro AtE'd and complained his vote off of him. I unvoted Retro because I found another player who I felt was scummier. Simo hasn't had a single case against anyone since he unvoted Retro.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Now he's had this

wishy-washy

(don't try to tell me through the wiki that you haven't been) stance on Elleran. First Elleran isn't posting much, and simo votes him for active lurking. It was a pressure vote, because as soon as Elleran started posting, despite the fact that it was horribly scummy, simo unvoted. Simo obviously hadn't really read Elleran's posts very much, because simo had no clue what his opinon of Elleran was.

This is where the fluff starts. For starters, the only two people I have voted all day have been Retro and Jase, with a vote on diddin holding while I read up more about Ell. Not once have I voted Ell, so not once have I unvoted him either. Where you get this lovely information from, I don't know, but as I showed earlier it isn't the first time you made stuff up in your cases. I quick ISO read will reveal this to be the real truth.

Then he decided that he'll hammer Elleran later. He didn't tell us why, or talked about what he agreed with or disagreed with, despite a large amount of pressure on simo to do so. Finally he states that one of my points against Elleran is weak or invalid or something, and therefore the entire case against Elleran is invalid, and continues to pursue Jace.

He then continues. Apparently I never explained my statement, nor did state who I agreed with or who I disagreed with. This is absolute bollocks. I read through ICEs case and made a post with it, stating what I did and what I didn't agree with and THAT is when I came to the conclusion that I found Ell scummy enough for my hammer, but Jase had posted just before and I noticed his activity levels were some what lacking, so I decided to park my vote there until I could get a better read from him. See post #350 for this. Not only that but I repeatedly stated to the town why I found their cases weak. See post #339 for example.

He's held his vote on Elleran until Elleran started posting. Regardless of the content, simo unvoted. He now has his vote on Jace, and has declared that he wont unvote until Jace puts forward some arbitrary posting quota. Later, simo puts in a stipulation that Jace needs to post something to make him feel like he is town in order to get the unvote. This was clearly not the case with Elleran.

More lies, I didn't even vote Ell and it is another lovely misrepresentation. The reason why I didn't vote Ell is because yes, he posted more, and at first I just went with that and put my vote on Diddin, but in my vote I even stated that this was a placer vote until I got a reread on them. When I did finally reread I stated my conclusion and said I would hammer when the time comes. It is only fair that I hold the same standards towards Jace, so naturally I will review his content once his starts posting more and use that to come to the conclusion. Until then, he stays scummy.

Why is there a discrepancy in the way simo is treating Elleran and Jace? He felt/feels that active lurking is scummy. Simo obviously feels that Jace's active lurking is the single most damning scum tell in the game right now, because his vote on Jace is

obviously

not a pressure vote, guys. It's a weak L-6 vote on a low post count player attempting to get him to post more and will be removed once said player makes some decent posts.

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it.

The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

This is compounded by the fact that he's ignored my inquiry about his current feelings on Retro.

Huh? When did I do this? Why is it scummy?

Either or, there has not been a word of truth from this post, and it alone is enough to warrant my vote. ICE has clearly made up a lot of rubbish about me in order to gain the towns favour and vote, appropriately hopping from the last biggest band wagon to the next and has done it for the second time today. I am surprised no one else noticed this yet.

vote: ICEninja

[Jase]

Ok Here's a quick one.

Benmage: Has been scumhunting. Fairly dull up to recently with his attacks on simo which is probably the most interesting thing so far today. I had been pretty sure simo was town, but good points have been made and now I'm not so sure. All in all I the only suspicious thing about him is his early lurking. Not too significant. Not getting a scum read on him, but we'll see how his case against simo goes.

Anyways, yeah I should start with my scum reads. That'll have to be for later tonight though. Also when I say 'dull' it's mostly just a symptom of this game. I expect I could apply it to just about anyone here.

[Jase]

EBWOP: Before I go. I'm posting well above 'just enough to avoid a prod' levels. Posting daily, usually with one in the afternoon and one at night. I don't think I've ever come close to being prodded.

[Retrospective]

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized

i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion.This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue.

I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

I bolded for emphasis.

In my last game I saw ICE doing something similar to this when he was mafia. What you're doing is confessing to scumtells that other people have called but trying to shine them in a different light. I'm going to post the quote where I explained it because it applies here as well.

Because I know it annoys you guys at mafiscum, I try to keep my EM references to a minimum. I know its a different meta and all, but there are some similarities, after all its the same basic game. There's a tell that me and my friends coined (Hira might have heard me use it a couple times before) called the Self-Incrimination tell. Essentially what this is when mafia agrees with the argument made against them and then saying why it doesn't fit this particular game. Something along the lines of "Yeah, that was scummy but _____" or "Normally I would agree with you, however in this game it is actually ______". When I play EM, whenever I see sentences phrased like that I almost always vote the person that said it.

This is exactly what you did in the first two paragraphs of your latest post. You're cornered by some scumtells and you don't have a way to argue your way out of them anymore. So you switch tactics and agree with BOTH of them. Go reread his quotes and look at the bolded parts.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy. If I am truly your favorite lynch, I should be your vote. You've said time and time again that Jace is just a weak vote and that you'll unvote him if he starts being more active. What could town gain from voting a weak suspicion over his strongest? Anyway I look at this, I just see mafia testing the waters and seeing if they can get an easy lynch.

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it. The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Now I found this extremely interesting. You specifically named two people and then said "rest of town." This is a variation of the Self-Incrimination tell I mentioned earlier. Sometimes mafia will see arguments that town are making and can't help but agree with them because they are right. And because they are speaking truths, mafia feels obligated to clear them. However, this shakes up my view Sweep. :/

Sweeps right at about a four now.

Unvote; Vote: el simo

[el simo]

Retro, you on a roll buddy. Not a good one either.

Sweep I had an answer t your question but I realized

i caught me with my own logic. So instead of arguing a losing battle I'll admit the pressure aspect of must vote. How ever, unlike Ben implies, the pressure was not the reason for my vote and was only a by product of my suspicion.This is why I claim it isn't a pressure vote.

There is not much else I can argue.

I can argue technicalities with you all day (such as the incorrect use of the term wishy washy) but at the end of the day I was non committal.

I bolded for emphasis.

In my last game I saw ICE doing something similar to this when he was mafia. What you're doing is confessing to scumtells that other people have called but trying to shine them in a different light. I'm going to post the quote where I explained it because it applies here as well.

Because I know it annoys you guys at mafiscum, I try to keep my EM references to a minimum. I know its a different meta and all, but there are some similarities, after all its the same basic game. There's a tell that me and my friends coined (Hira might have heard me use it a couple times before) called the Self-Incrimination tell. Essentially what this is when mafia agrees with the argument made against them and then saying why it doesn't fit this particular game. Something along the lines of "Yeah, that was scummy but _____" or "Normally I would agree with you, however in this game it is actually ______". When I play EM, whenever I see sentences phrased like that I almost always vote the person that said it.

This is exactly what you did in the first two paragraphs of your latest post. You're cornered by some scumtells and you don't have a way to argue your way out of them anymore. So you switch tactics and agree with BOTH of them. Go reread his quotes and look at the bolded parts.

What else do you want me to do? Keep on arguing? Even though I've just got caught with my own logic by Sweep, proving their point? No Retro, a good townie knows when to give in. Something you obviously haven't learned.

I unvoted Retro to focus my attention else where, my views have not changed about him and he is still my favourite lynch today.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy. If I am truly your favorite lynch, I should be your vote. You've said time and time again that Jace is just a weak vote and that you'll unvote him if he starts being more active. What could town gain from voting a weak suspicion over his strongest? Anyway I look at this, I just see mafia testing the waters and seeing if they can get an easy lynch.

Oh really, how funny, because you were the one insisting that I do it, claiming I was too tunnelled. Besides, this statement is no longer true. I favour ICE for todays lynch,..

No, it is a vote that is based of my suspicion of his, "I'm going to post only just enough to not get replaced" activity level. I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it. The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Now I found this extremely interesting. You specifically named two people and then said "rest of town." This is a variation of the Self-Incrimination tell I mentioned earlier. Sometimes mafia will see arguments that town are making and can't help but agree with them because they are right. And because they are speaking truths, mafia feels obligated to clear them. However, this shakes up my view Sweep. :/

I've been attacked for saying that before, I can link you to games where I have been accused of being scum for saying that exact thing as a townie. Using that as a tell is ridiculous. You forget this game is roleplayed in a town, and even though mafia are scum they are a part of the town, referring to the rest isn't referring to ones role pm it's referring to everybody in the game as a whole.

[RichardGHP]

Ninth Vote Count of Day 1:

[0] Benmage - [

diddin

]
[1] Slaxx - [TheLonging

Elleran

]
[3] Elleran - [

Sweep

Slaxx, DemonHybrid,

ICEninja

diddin,

Benmage

]
[0] ICEninja - [

Benmage, el simo, diddin

]
[1] Sweep - [

Elleran, ICEninja, Slaxx, Retrospective

Jase,

DemonHybrid

]
[1] Retrospective - [

ICEninja,

el simo, Elleran

Sweep]
[0] TheLonging - [

Jase

]
[1] diddin - [

el simo

Elleran]
[1] Jase - [el simo]
[3] el simo - [Benmage, ICEninja, Retrospective]
[1] Not Voting - [Iamnobody]

Names in

strikethrough text

indicate unvotes.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to achieve a lynch and to end Day 1. Deadline for this day can be found here.

---

Prodding TheLonging.

[el simo]

I also urge you, Retro, and the rest of the town, to seriously look at ICE before placing a vote on me. That many blatant lies in an accusation is inexcusable. I look forward to hearing his defence because I struggle to see how someone is going to defend themselves after being caught like that. I honestly don't see the town would want to lynch anyone else today, not after that post.