NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Wraith]

@Gorrad: Here

Uh short, it was a gambit I thought might work in getting slip-ups/reads on a bunch of voters, but in the end I've realized it doesn't work. So I dropped the subject. I don't know why you keep insisting on bringing it up.

Also, my case on Xite revolves around his relationship with dana, mostly his D3 play. Throughout Day 3, several people (most notably Robb and myself) claimed Dana was scum because it was incredibly suspicious that the claimed cop had not been roleblocked at all, and not killed after Doctor was dead. Xite argued using gallons of WIFOM. In short his argument: "Dana is town because the scum are setting him up for a mislynch. They know that if they didn't roleblock or kill him he would appear to be scum! It's all a master plan by the scumteam to get us to mislynch the cop!" It was blatantly obvious that the long-term gains from killing/blocking dana were far greater than setting him up for a mislynch using WIFOM, and Xite refused to believe that. And we were right in the end. So his chainsaw defense of dana looks incredibly scummy now.

[Xite91]

EBWOP: Wraith first.

I did respond. Look for it, please, I don't have time to dig around.

Just Iso'd you. Can't find it.

Also, correct me in I'm wrong, but it seems to me your case on Xite is based on him not wanting to discuss night actions because of WIFOM. Did he do this D4? Or just D1-3?

Uhm, I only did it do that extent D3. I try to ignore it mostly because it causes a lot of WIFOM but I will look at it if things are painfully obvious, but that's usually it.

[Gorrad]

I can understand D3. I felt rather similar to him D3. D4....yeah. Defending Dana D4 would have been bad.

[Xite91]

Finally getting around to reading the posts I couldn't.

Shanba, I like your case, it makes a lot of sense but it all broils down to mostly VC analysis. Do you have more from his posts that make you think he's scum?

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

4) Look at every wagon I've been on- how many of them have me not in the first few votes?

2) *cough cough*
4) That can also often be a classic scumtell.

Still got two more to go, but now it's time for food and jobhunting...

[Flameaxe]

Prods are getting sent out later today. If you think you're in prod territory, post now and I'll have less work to do!

[DemonHybrid]

Aye, I'm still alive. Work's been swamping me, I'll post something later on.

[Shanba]

I clearly gave shanba

three

options. Follow either of the bandwagons

or think of something new, either on Gorrad, or on someone else

. On this moment I have a townread on Shanba, but I really want him to do scumhunting that others would agree with. It's just a better use of his scumhunting qualities. Now, I made this very clear, then why do you misrep me by saying that I give him only two options.

Hey flinter, the problem I have with this is fairly simple. I don't have any particular reason to think the two who are top suspects today are scum. I do have good reason to believe gorrad is scum. I'm not going to go from a case I think is strong to a case I think is weak just because you guys want me to. If you don't agree with my scumhunting then I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not going to change my mind based on that.

Tell you what, I can compromise a bit here. I have been skimming xite's posts a bit since I've had a townread on him - I'll go back and reread him thoroughly and tell you all exactly what I make of the case. Ok?

[singersigner]

I feel like there are questions/comments I have to go back and address...

I'm getting some tests done in the hospital so I definitely won't be able to post til much later today if not tomorrow.

Cheers.

[flinter]

I clearly gave shanba

three

options. Follow either of the bandwagons

or think of something new, either on Gorrad, or on someone else

. On this moment I have a townread on Shanba, but I really want him to do scumhunting that others would agree with. It's just a better use of his scumhunting qualities. Now, I made this very clear, then why do you misrep me by saying that I give him only two options.

Hey flinter, the problem I have with this is fairly simple. I don't have any particular reason to think the two who are top suspects today are scum. I do have good reason to believe gorrad is scum. I'm not going to go from a case I think is strong to a case I think is weak just because you guys want me to. If you don't agree with my scumhunting then I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not going to change my mind based on that.

Tell you what, I can compromise a bit here. I have been skimming xite's posts a bit since I've had a townread on him - I'll go back and reread him thoroughly and tell you all exactly what I make of the case. Ok?

That would be nice.

I would have been equally happy if you had done the same on Gorrad but brought new points.

[Gorrad]

Finally getting around to reading the posts I couldn't.

Shanba, I like your case, it makes a lot of sense but it all broils down to mostly VC analysis. Do you have more from his posts that make you think he's scum?

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

4) Look at every wagon I've been on- how many of them have me not in the first few votes?

2) *cough cough*
4) That can also often be a classic scumtell.

Still got two more to go, but now it's time for food and jobhunting...

Ok, yes, you made a significant case too. I won't compare their sizes, that's just epeen.

Really now? I've been playing for a good while, and I've never had 'votes at the beginning of wagons' mentioned as a scumtell. Citation needed.

Good luck with your tests, SS!

[Xite91]

Finally getting around to reading the posts I couldn't.

Shanba, I like your case, it makes a lot of sense but it all broils down to mostly VC analysis. Do you have more from his posts that make you think he's scum?

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

4) Look at every wagon I've been on- how many of them have me not in the first few votes?

2) *cough cough*
4) That can also often be a classic scumtell.

Still got two more to go, but now it's time for food and jobhunting...

Ok, yes, you made a significant case too. I won't compare their sizes, that's just epeen.

Really now? I've been playing for a good while, and I've never had 'votes at the beginning of wagons' mentioned as a scumtell. Citation needed.

Good luck with your tests, SS!

Not so much being on the front of A wagon, but when you're on a lot of the obvious kills for the day, that's the scumtell. Sorry if I didn't explain that well.

[Gorrad]

Yes, but I was on them before they were obvious. It's a scumtell if someone says 'Oh, this person has a big wagon forming, I should join it'. It's not if someone's one of the first people starting the wagon.

[Bunnylover]

Yes, but I was on them before they were obvious. It's a scumtell if someone says 'Oh, this person has a big wagon forming, I should join it'. It's not if someone's one of the first people starting the wagon.

It is if you look at it this prespective:
Scum know who is townie and who is not.
Scum can easily jump on any wagon early on without having to worry if its their scum buddy or not.
Even if it is their scum buddy, no harm done since they can just comment what you commenting.
Although I doubt this is what were dealing with.
You seem townie to me, very townie. The two people I believe are town are you and Xite, and having you two argue with one another isn't going to help town win this game.

[Wraith]

Yes, but I was on them before they were obvious. It's a scumtell if someone says 'Oh, this person has a big wagon forming, I should join it'. It's not if someone's one of the first people starting the wagon.

It is if you look at it this prespective:
Scum know who is townie and who is not.
Scum can easily jump on any wagon early on without having to worry if its their scum buddy or not.
Even if it is their scum buddy, no harm done since they can just comment what you commenting.
Although I doubt this is what were dealing with.
You seem townie to me, very townie. The two people I believe are town are you and Xite, and having you two argue with one another isn't going to help town win this game.

Dude, the two people you most think are town are everyone else's top suspects, and for very good reasons. You come to the strangest conclusions.

[Flameaxe]

Prodding Pacman.

[Xite91]

Yes, but I was on them before they were obvious. It's a scumtell if someone says 'Oh, this person has a big wagon forming, I should join it'. It's not if someone's one of the first people starting the wagon.

It is if you look at it this prespective:
Scum know who is townie and who is not.
Scum can easily jump on any wagon early on without having to worry if its their scum buddy or not.
Even if it is their scum buddy, no harm done since they can just comment what you commenting.
Although I doubt this is what were dealing with.
You seem townie to me, very townie. The two people I believe are town are you and Xite, and having you two argue with one another isn't going to help town win this game.

Dude, the two people you most think are town are everyone else's top suspects, and for very good reasons. You come to the strangest conclusions.

Wrong, if we were EVERYONE else's top suspects, we'd be dead by now.
Anyways, I see where you're coming from gorrad, but I was just pointing out that it IS a scumtell on occasion. I'm not saying it is for you, but I am saying that it is.

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 5.4

Bunnylover [4] (Antihero, Gorrad, DemonHybrid, Eek)
Xite [4] (Flinter, Wraith, Pacman, Singersigner)
Gorrad [1] (Shanba)
DemonHybrid [1] (Xite)

Not Voting [2] (Bunnylover, Prozac)

With 12 alive, it will take 7 to lynch, and 6 to no lynch.

---

Deadline:

October 14th, 10P MST.

[Xite91]

otecount?

[Flameaxe]

otecount?

I honestly, don't know where the V went.

[Xite91]

otecount?

I honestly, don't know where the V went.

It went LA

[evilpacman18]

I apologize.

Going from page 76, I'm kinda wondering what happened from today's start to know. It looks like Gorrad v. Shanba. v. Wraith. v. Xite threw everything off. That's why I haven't posted, I've been keeping up but I don't want anything to do and have nothing to do with that argument.

Day 1, I will be honest, I am totally useless and this was one of the 3 first games I joined. I was trying to see how people play, and posted when I had something to say. So I can understand what you mean by anything tangible, but I did give my opinion on Dana scumminess on post 7 on my ISO. Is it good and a lot? No, but it is my opinion on Dana for a little and I gave just my opinion. As for the Warith to Furclow thing, did you not read my post when I voted them? Furclow was been desperate and stupid. Oh I'm a VT, no wait I'm a doctor now. Your telling me you didn't find that stupid? Wraith I posted that WIFOM situation practically where he was only trying to get people not to vote him and townie cred because he apparently knew Furclow would flip town.
Day 2, I was suspicious of Dana in the beginning because I forgot that DP had faked claimed Cop, and that he actually got an invisitgation off. After I read the last 5 pages of Day 1, I realized my mistake and understood why Dana invistigated that person therefore my suspicion was not on him. I never jumped on Dana, I was questioning him as an other person would have. About the votes I voted for CA because I agreed with Wraith ISO, then Gorrad showed me where Wraith posted that he self voted to protect himself, so I switched over. I don't find anything strange about that switch. I hammered Mysterio. My reason, I honestly don't have a god damn clue what I was doing. I feel like a freaking idiot because 1) We didn't get him to claim and 2) I practically just set my lynch up.
Are you saying that if I claimed Doctor (in no way is that a claim this is just a example) as scum, and no one counter claims, you will still be up for my lynch? If someone comes out and claims a PR that is big, I expect someone to counter claim or otherwise I'm going to believe them. Now I should have expected that they wouldn't CC because it was Day 1 and they didn't want to out themselves.
Btw it was only 5 <_<.

Preview Edit: I raised the question of SK or Vig because I'm 100% sure their is a SK, and no one else has brought it up yet although I am sure everyone suspected it. Their is another reason too, but I rather not post it as it will lose its meaning.

Though I must agree, there's very little chance that there isn't an SK, 100% is a bit much without knowing something the rest of us don't. I'd say I'm only at about 95% and then I have some logical reason to believe it's Xite though I'm not gonna add a percentage to that. The problem with the other section of this post is it's not really a defense, it's more of an outline. You told us what you were doing on those days and made up for some mistakes that you made but you didn't really provide any reasons for some of the scummy things you've said.

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT WIFOM IS.

No really, I've read the page on the wiki on it like 3 times and I still don't get it.

I don't like the fact that everyone here died except for me:
Hiphop [3] (Dana, Lowell, Bunnylover)

What are you insinuating here? You do know hiphop died and is town, right?

The vig/sk is killing off lurkers, nitwits.
- nhammen
- benmage
- kise/ua
- baby spice/lowell

In the case of baby spice, I'm willing to bet he went with dana's first day 4 post. But other than that, he's killing off lurkers, which is not a thing an sk would do.

Um benmage is the only person on that list that lurked.

Aight, here we go.

The crux of my case is something like: "I think nearly every popular case we've had this game has been crap, and Gorrad has pushed all those popular cases. Gorradtown should be able to distinguish those crap cases from the good cases" but I suppose you're going to want more detail than that.

Firstly, there was the Frank lynch. Frankly (pardon the pun), I never really understood that wagon. There was a lot of bluster and badlogic from Frank, but despite asking I never got anyone to explain to me why. Gorrad is no exception. Check his catch up post if anything, reading through it, you'd expect him to be on Dana or Wraith (I think his points on Wraith are bad, but I'll get to that in a bit. The important point here is that He beings up more points against Wraith and reacts more strongly to the points he's brought up than against). To me, it looks like there was a kind of whispering campaign against Frank that made him an easy target; lots of vague accusations and a player who's not looking like he's strong enough to counter them, and then your late jump on the easiest wagon in the game... eh.

Day 2, though, I really didn't like. Again I didn't understand why you were going after Wraith, and what's more a lot of his posts had a genuineness and a townfeel to it. I've given a few concrete examples in earlier posts but I can go find them again if you like. Given I was pretty convinced he was town, I wanted to understand the case - but I never felt you made one. You piggybacked on a load of other people's suspicions and tried to drive the wagon without giving a reason why (beyond X POST IS SUPA SCUMMY". And teve the stuff in your catchup post - well, most of that "DIRECTING THA COP" kinda crap is a nulltell.

Seriously. No scum pulls that kind of gambit. I have never, not once seen scum pretending to be newbies to propose something that they shouldn't. It's like when a newbie says we should no lynch. It's just not scummy.

Given that I don't have you down as an "anti-town always = scummy" type, I don't see how you can honestly believe in your case on Wraith. And Robb, again, follows the same pattern. A weak player, an easy lynch, no thought, no actual scumhunting going on.

All this builds into a pattern of behaviour. It looks to me like you're looking for the easy lynch instead of scumhunting - you've made 3 posts containing anything I would classify as any sort of scumhunting (your initial and two posts where you address the wagons.) And I still haven't forgotten that dismissal of my prozac case - that was so strange to me. You think a connection to dead scum and a pattern of lurking is less strong than a bunch of newbish actions and "detracting from the town"? We're not playing hunt the bad players, we're playing mafia. We're scumhunting. I hated hated hated that you tried to discredit me by saying I was tunneling. Seriously. I have been looking at many players and drawing conclusions on all of them - I have a multitiude of townreads. But you? You just have your wraithread and you're happy with that.

It's particularly egregious when the cop died. My first intinct was "ok dana's scum", and my second one was "did the cop breadcrumb any results? Better go check." So I did. I don't expect everyone to do that, but I do expect experienced players to. Similarly, when the scum died, it seems like you haven't looked at all. There's so much potential information in this game, and you're just faffing about pushing the same damn case again and again on different players. You haven't looked at dead scum to try and discern info from them. You haven't questioned anyone at any given time except your top suspect. There seems to be no attempt to get a read on anyone. Look at Reckoner's interaction with me early game, where he questions me and then backs off. What's happened to that kind of stuff? Nothing in your posts indicates anything more to me than scum who just wants to coast to victory.

Prozac is a horrible lurker (almost as bad as benmage was) who has, recently, spent more time defending himself than engaging in the game. But you're scummier.

Vote: Gorrad

The whole thing with my making a joke about this post didn't really give me a chance to say that I really appreciate this sort of read. It's not too flooded with lingo or theory, there's a good amount of reads based on his meta but you don't overdo it, etc. Very thorough and convincing.

There's just so much scumminess from this day it's unbelievable.

Frankly, at this point in the day I thought everybody except Bunnylover was doing really well. Or at least sounded pretty pro-town.

Uh short, it was a gambit I thought might work in getting slip-ups/reads on a bunch of voters, but in the end I've realized it doesn't work. So I dropped the subject. I don't know why you keep insisting on bringing it up.

This is a very weak defense. I'm beginning to lean towards you as scum out of you, Gorrad, and Shanba (I'm gonna be surprised if at least one of you isn't scum).

I'll have to iso Wraith pretty soon, I haven't been paying much attention to him, unfortunately.

Evilpacman: In pure speculatory terms, do you believe a hypothetical SK in this game to have NK immunity? This is relevant.

I'd still like to know what you would have said if I had given a more "satisfactory" answer.

Yes, I meant wickedest. /facepalm. Sorry, I was tired. The only reason Dana was low on my scumlist was because of the claim. He WAS a long way down my list because I believed the claim! He was an uncountered cop! You know the whole 'one town for one scum is always a good trade' thing? Well I figured if Dana was lying he'd have been countered!

I don't think it would have been good for Kise to claim so early. Judging by his play, I doubt he had got any guilties yet and Mysterio was dead so scum would have taken him out in a second.

improved my gorrad case? Sorry but speaking frankly, the cases on both bunnylover and xite are shit.

Lolno. This is so wrong. They're by far the best two cases we have. What does this make your Gorrad case?

Actually, I'm slightly baffled at this point. How can you people believe these cases you have are strong? Honestly, either there's somethign I just don't get or everyone is playing terribly. No one, with the exception of wickedest, has said practically anything at all that I agree with, and the way my cases have fallen flat baffles me, because I know they're good cases. This stuff would normally have people jumping up and down in anticipation, or at least acknowledgement - I had to post about that prozac case several times before anyone read it, and even then it seems a substantial number of people just ignored it. Am I being dumb? Are people just not paying attention? What the hell is going on?

You're almost too sure that your cases are perfect. I'm thinking you might possibly be trying to start a bus.

FoS: Shanba

Gorrad's play is looking worse and worse to me. First:

"Wraith is accusing someone of lurking while 'lurking' himself. I'll suddenly fall back on the case against him that I discarded yesterday."

Then:

"I'm not scum, Prozac is. FOCUS ON PROZAC"

Really, really not liking this.

This is almost as bad as DH's post about me.

Almost.

Also, evilpacman is partly scum for 2 things (there is more, but I don't have the time)
1) He is CONVINCED there is an SK, and is trying to distract the town from scumhunting with SK hunting
2) He is CONVINCED that I'm the SK with little to no evidence that I am. Seriously, he's using me making a simple almost obvious assumption as his reason for thinking I'm the SK

I can't wait till you have the time.

1. I am not trying to DISTRACT. At this point, SK hunting is more important. I would rather the town SK hunt right now because it will keep more town alive. Yes I am CONVINCED there is an SK. You aren't?

2. I'm not as CONVINCED that you're the SK but I believe you are for reasons I've already outlined including the one slip about the SK killing PRs even though scum could have killed those PRs that I can't believe more people didn't jump on.

Someone's going to have to enlighten me as to why Bunnylover is a bad wagon.

QFT

Gorrad's play is looking worse and worse to me. First:

"Wraith is accusing someone of lurking while 'lurking' himself. I'll suddenly fall back on the case against him that I discarded yesterday."

Then:

"I'm not scum, Prozac is. FOCUS ON PROZAC"

Really, really not liking this.

1) Heh. Yeah, right. If this was true, I'd be voting you. I was just pointing out the irony.

2) How are you getting this from the quote you cited? Seriously. I can't understand it.

2. To be honest, the more and more I read it the more and more I doubt that's actually what you meant. I think I confused myself with the language in it, because for some reason it reads just like that to me. *headache*

Lol ok that iso may be unnecessary. There's beginning to be more than enough evidence to lynch you just on today.

Still want a definition of WIFOM

Wraith has tried to jump on Gorrad's, Xite's, and Bunnylover's wagon today. Appeasing everybody? Oh and singer so he sounds original a bit.

[Bunnylover]

WIFOM means wine in front of me.
You have two wine glasses in front of you. You know at least one of them in poison. Which one do you take?
You believe the person who poisoned them will pick the one he doesn't think you would pick, but you think he expects that so you think he does the opposite, and it never ends.

[Antihero]

Wraith has tried to jump on Gorrad's, Xite's, and Bunnylover's wagon today. Appeasing everybody? Oh and singer so he sounds original a bit.

Wait...what about singer? All I got from Wraith was:

Singer has been pretty townie all game (flinter probably less so but that's not the point).

[evilpacman18]

Wraith has tried to jump on Gorrad's, Xite's, and Bunnylover's wagon today. Appeasing everybody? Oh and singer so he sounds original a bit.

Wait...what about singer? All I got from Wraith was:

Singer has been pretty townie all game (flinter probably less so but that's not the point).

So now I'm looking for it and I can't find it... I must have confused something somewhere. Maybe I was reading a post thinking it was him but it wasn't him or something. Idk I really have no idea what happened and I'm very confused now. I coulda sworn I saw him say some negative things about her....

[Wraith]

No, I'm pretty committed to the Xite wagon now (which I started). I would really like to lynch Xite today.