Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[Retrospective]

:< I'm mad that everyone reacted to Slaxx's paradoy but didn't react to mine :<

Anyway.

Unvote; Vote: el simo

[Slaxx]

Alright.

Hi Diddin

WAZZZUP

[el simo]

Whhh Whhh What??? You unvote your favorite lynch target to put attention elsewhere?? Why would you ever want to detract attention from you favorite lynch target? Moreover for what purpose/ why did you/ who did you feel the need to focus on(yes this may be repetitive, please answer).

He was my favourite lynch at the time of posting yes and I wasn't trying to take attention off him, I was simply focussing mine else where to get a read on other players as well. And the town in general. Other people were posting other arguments that I had completely ignored. I pretty much reread every player during that time and posted my thoughts on them.

I'm going to bold this statement because I don't want Ben, Sweep or the rest of the town to miss it.

The pressure is a by product of my suspicion. It is not the reason why my vote is placed on him. This is why I was arguing the fact that it wasn't a pressure vote.

Yeah, you're suspicions are based on his lack of participation. Thus your vote is parked there until he adequately participates. So yeah...this is a pressure vote which you s.p.e.l.t out the get out of jail free card, or how he can easily alleviate any suspicion you have........ Posting. Look out, god forbid he didn't simo probably wouldn't do anything anyways. One, side, wasted vote causing so much pressure Jase's way. (sarcasm in those last two lines for those who didn't realize it)

Why is my pressure vote on Jase scummy but my "pressure" on Ell not? They were both guilty of the same thing. Would you rather me not vote someone who I was suspicious of? Would you prefer to me just to park it on a bandwagon that I'm not convinced by? No Ben, I thought Jase was suspicious so I voted him. Saying my vote was useless doesn't prove anything, my vote on ICE is the only one atm, is that useless too? Should I just switch over to Ell so you can all be happy that my vote is doing something you deem useful, regardless of my thoughts?

Either or, there has

not been a word of truth

from this post, and it alone is enough to warrant my vote.

Now this seems like a misstatement to make your counter sound a bit stronger.

Yeah strings of lies like that tend to make me say these things.

Hmm...
I cannot see a town motivation to stop putting pressure on someone that you think is the most scummy.

QFT

Fair enough. However, do I know person A is the most scummy when I haven't read anything on Person B, C, D, E, F, G or anyone else for that matter? This is what I did and why I did it.

Oh really, how funny, because you were the one insisting that I do it, claiming I was too tunnelled. Besides, this statement is no longer true. I favour ICE for todays lynch,..

Did Jase ever satisfy

his lack of contribution

your "suspicions"?

Why is ice scummy for making the case? It looks like only a dressed up OMGUS to me.

^QFT, and yes Retro summarized it nicely in 452.

No, he didn't. There is a lot more lies than just the vote. I have shown this and proved it and ICE has admitted it himself. To keep on arguing that he was right is just arrogant and stubborn.

And saying that I'm manufacturing the lie is bullshit. I can't make it up, he blatantly said things that weren't true and is now covering them up by saying opps you're right, oh well you're still scummy, probably even more so because you didn't vote! Woolah!

It was pretty obvious when I read his and yours post before rereading his response that it was a simple misstatement. Why would anyone make such a blatant lie, and then attempt to push it when anyone could clearly do a fast iso of yourself or of the votecounts and see that you didn't vote Elleran. This was obviously a misstatement and for you to be suggesting otherwise is a massive grasping at straws and scummy as shit. I can't believe at this point I am going to have to still read 5 more pages and you aren't dead.

I've already responded to this, but I'll say it again, you don't make so many misstatements so many times about so many things. It is far from a simple misstatement.

Regardless, I focused on Ell. Found him scummy at first

See.. this is where the misstatement stems from. This idea, and anyone could get your original words if you like and show you what Ice said in context was truth. You stamping around on your feet going LIAR LIAR isn't persuading anyone. You were torn between diddin and El, and voted diddin. What Ice said in regards to you and Ell was true.

What? He read that statement and because of it thought I voted Ell? I don't see it.

. I stated intent to hammer because I did - at that time - but there was no need for me to move my vote off Jase, so I didn't.

Because your vote on Jase was so effective (more sarcasm)

Does the effectiveness of it change anything? I'm not going to not vote someone I am suspicious of because my vote will be ineffective. Ben you still have a lot to catch up on, but I must say I surely am disappointed in you. To have claimed to be the best player in this group I was sure you would see through ICEs blatant misrepresentations, but apparently not. Even though he has admitted it. Funny.

I don't know Retro, do you hate me that much?

Yeah.

Excellent, let your feelings get in the way of your thoughts, wonderful town play.

el simo; post 307 is where you start talking about Elleran vs Diddin for scum.

Wrong, I started in my reread quite a while before then.

Post 325 is where you where you say "idk about elleran so ima vote jace 'cause his post number is low"

No this is wrong. In post #325 I say that I maintain my position that Ell's play has improved. I never said I don't know what I think of him, I also disagreed with the case on him. How ever, my vote on Jase was for exactly the same reason as my initial - and at the time of posting - only suspicion on Ell. Why is my vote on Jase scummy but my case on Ell wasn't?

[Please note this is also the part of the game where you weren't even reading Elleran's posts and you just looked at post count.]

And again, no, this was the point in the game where I had just reread Ell and decided that he wasn't scummy. Here, I'll even quote myself:

Anyone else notice this? Other than that I maintain my position that Ells game has picked up. Bad case =! scummy! We put pressure on him for actively lurking and he started posting more. If he continued to lurk than I'd have voted him but since our pressure got the desired results I don't see why I should vote Ell.

Elleran defends on 377. You voted Jace 52 posts before Elleran even attempted to defend himself. Saying I made up these numbers is ridiculousness. You were extemlely hypocritical especially because you were voting for lurking. You stopped pressureing Elleran the second he posted even though he said next to nothing of value

I didn't need to wait for his defence, I had already decided that I disagreed with Ice, as stated in that very same post that I voted Jase.

however when Jace posts you're still confident he's scum. Yeah, you're right! I'm not sure where anyone is getting this double standard argument from. And I just realized this now but between diddin and elleran you voted diddin. Once Elleran was getting a huge amount of heat and people stopped learning on diddin, you picked Jace out of nowhere. Everytime you were at a cross road between Elleran and another player, you always picked the latter.

When did I say I was confident that he was scum? I said he was my next most suspicious player, after ICE and you.

And picked him out of no where? I voted him for the exact same reasons that I was suspicious of Ell in the first place. AGAIN, why is this scummy, when my suspicions on Ell wasn't?

[el simo]

Anywho Retro, you are being just as bad as ICE here with your constant flouting of nonsense things, claiming that I said and did things that I did not. You really making it hard for me to decide between you and ICE.

[diddin]

Alright.

Hi Diddin

WAZZZUP

sup slaxx

im too fucking tired to make a content post tonight

[ICEninja]

Your "pressure" on Elleran let up as soon as he started posting. You even admitted that he made a bad case, but you declared him not scummy because making a bad case isn't scummy. That is absolutely garbage reasoning.

You haven't cleared Jace, despite the fact that he's presented significantly more content and has made some decent cases.

You seem to have taken my admission of making a mistake as an admission of guilt. I made a simple error that no one else feels is scummy. It's just you. I didn't admit to being guilty, I admitted that I made a very mild error that doesn't actually change my case against you.

I didn't acknowledge your vote, Retro, because it was extremely obviously a joke. Slaxx wasn't as obvious. Both of your points were duly taken.

This game is really degrading. I think it's time for simo's lynch.

[Slaxx]

Jase is my biggest town read tbh. Mainly gut.

Also ICE didya see Smit?

[Retrospective]

I just ISO'd Sweep and I'm leaning toward town. His last post seemed to try to get the town away from theory arguments and get players back into the game. Although it was a short post, it gave me a strong town read; short and sweet. However, before the last post, I had a weak scum read on Sweep due to his seemingly contentless posts.

Um... You changed your read because he said that town should talk less about theory? Does this strike anyone else as unbelievably weak?

[Slaxx]

Alright, so maybe el simo is town. Sweep might be scum

Doesn;t matter. Ell fits with so many different people it unbelievable and I cannot believe with how agreeable and passive and introspective and scummy he has been + the amount of people letting him go + the person chainsaw attacking me for FoSing him that there are not more votes on this wagon. It sickens me.

[Slaxx]

-introverted, introspective is not correct.

[el simo]

Slaxx I must be honest, I have no idea what your case on Ell is.

ICE, I understand what you mean, when I said you admitted it I never meant to imply that you admitted to the consequences of them, just the fact that you were wrong in the way you presented my in those posts. I don't feel it is as simple a matter as you claim, but that is subjective, although I struggle to see how other people can take your side on it. But the fact that they deny it happen altogether is what annoys me.

About Jase, I haven't gotten to writing about him yet, I'm sure you can see how I've been pretty busy, what between you, Retro and Ben. I feel the matter is coming close to being settled so I will write up on Jase soon, but first I'd like to see more content from him so I can confirm/refute my ideas. Same goes for Benmage.

[Slaxx]

erm...really?

[el simo]

Yep, it's pretty hard to find in the 27 pages too, mind giving me the # of the post?

[Benmage]

Simo, you yielded that the "pressure" aspect of your vote on Jase was a by product of your suspicions. Is that correct?

Which means the rest of our assumptions that it was a pressure vote, was accurate because your vote maintained aspects of what an accepted "pressure" vote looks like. Is that also correct?

[Slaxx]

I will just make an even better one when I find the time. He has given me plenty to work with.

Oh, and Benmage is a slight town read for me.

/waves.

[el simo]

Simo, you yielded that the "pressure" aspect of your vote on Jase was a by product of your suspicions. Is that correct?

Yes

Which means the rest of our assumptions that it was a pressure vote, was accurate because your vote maintained aspects of what an accepted "pressure" vote looks like. Is that also correct?

No, at least, not intentionally. My vote was on him because I found him suspicious, not because I wanted him to post more. My desire to have him post more stemmed from my suspicion of him, it was the not the purpose of my vote as you have implied.

Anywho, Ben, I think you should know, in case you've missed it during your reread, that I concede that your points on me are correct. My actions were non-committal and there was a pressure aspect to my vote (although not the intention of it). I can't argue against this. This is why the town will either believe my actions for what they were as I explained them when I made them, or they will believe them for what you say which is that I had scummy intentions when I made those actions. I can't really argue against this and if the town lynches me for this then so be it.

I can how ever, argue against ICE, because he made up multiple untrue 'facts' about me to try an add to your case Benmage, this is why I find him scummy. It wasn't just one post and it wasn't just about the vote. As I showed he did it numerous times about numerous things, extending back to his case on Ell and his comments about the double standards. When I argued with him, I wasn't doing it with the intentions of trying to clear myself from your accusations, I did what I did and I can't change that whether you read it as scummy or not is up to you, when I argued with him, I did it to show how he was being scummy. I think you will come to see this with the rest of your read (as I believe you are only up to page 18?). If the town lynches me based on ICEs accusations, which are just exactly what you said + incorrect statements about me trying to make your case more substanstial, well then, I can't do much other than hope that you will learn from my death and heed my words more carefully tomorrow and lynch ICE or Retro.

[Benmage]

PG 20 ish

[ICEninja]

Also ICE didya see Smit?

I see a player who doesn't have any clue what he's doing. I'm not even going to begin to try to determine his alignment based on the information he's put forward. Of course you're going to be more bugged by him because he's voting you.

the amount of people letting him go

Don't include me in that, because Elleran is a close second for who I want to see hanging today.

About Jase, I haven't gotten to writing about him yet, I'm sure you can see how I've been pretty busy, what between you, Retro and Ben. I feel the matter is coming close to being settled so I will write up on Jase soon, but first I'd like to see more content from him so I can confirm/refute my ideas. Same goes for Benmage.

Fair enough, I'll give you a couple more days to do this.

My current scum read on simo is a lot more gut based than I like my reads to be. I like to not really lynch anyone unless it involves a logical conclusion that said person is playing towards a scum condition or has a higher likelihood to flip scum than any other player. However, I'm very quite sure that if I put enough effort in to it, I could go through and really dig in deep to all of simo's stuff to find out exactly what the logic is behind why I think he's scum. (A personal aside, to me a gut read is simply unrealized logic. There are reasons that conclude a player is scum or town, they're just harder to pin down or identify.) Unfortunately this game is incredibly painful, and I believe the current points against him are sufficient for me.

Essentially, it is the scum points that were just admitted to that Ben introduced some time ago, and simo's reaction to the pressure placed on him. I'm actually quite happy that I mistakenly claimed simo voted Elleran because simo's explosive reaction gave me a lot of insight in to what his mindset is right now. I do see the possibility of frustrated town, because I've been there, but I feel like in terms of what we can possibly have for day 1, he's given us enough of scum mindset to warrant a lynch.

For Elleran, he's just been nothing. Every action he's made seems to be an attempt to appease town, and there is just no town reasoning to do so.

I think diddin, Sweep, and Retro all have a decent likelihood of flipping scum, but I don't see enough on any of them to really start a bandwagon for day 1, and will mostly oppose any move to lynch these players.

I'm pretty much completely undecided about Slaxx. I see things that seem scummy as hell, but the overall impression seems fairly town. I'll leave my read on him for another day.

DH and Ben haven't given us a lot, but I like what I see for the most part. Jace, too.

I think Longing needs to get out of this game. Sorry dude, but it's true. Unless you can start to up your posting in the next few days, this just isn't going to work.

[el simo]

Mmmm I didn't just admit to them, I admitted them on page 18. And also you are glad you made the mistake, as if I was only focusing on your vote. But I wasn't - and you did a lot more than just mistake the vote. So I don't get why you are so glad about it. In my experience I've never seen someone misrepresent the truth so much and not be lynched.

[Slaxx]

New doesn't mean he is immune from being scum, but you know this.

ICE, you said elleran was second on your lynch target. So lets say he is scum, which I adamantly believe.

Do you at least see why I am so bugged by Smit calling out me and DH for doing something perfectly normal on Ell's behalf? And how he says he will read the thread and unvotes but just votes me again with no reasoning?

that isnt JUST new. Also I encourage you to look at his predecessor's ISO and look for similarities. It might be shocking.

[ICEninja]

Mmmm I didn't just admit to them, I admitted them on page 18.

I didn't say that as in you only just now admitted to them, I was just referring to something 2 posts above mine for convenient reference's sake.

Slaxx, yes I see everything you say as a point. However, all the evidence you have requires the Elleran flip to determine. If Elleran is indeed town (which I also doubt at this point, but we can't rule out the possibility) then we have very little on Smit.

Actually, this is interesting. If we lynch Elleran today and he's scum, that gives us 2 extremely good scum connections for tomorrow in simo and Smit. While I still maintain the fact that simo has a slightly higher likelihood of flipping scum in my eyes, a decent part of my case against him does indeed also rest on Elleran's flip. This plus the connection with Smit really makes lynching Elleran look like the smart move, despite my feelings towards simo.

I'll think on it overnight.

[Slaxx]

Thats why my vote is on Elleran

Finally someone is making sense.

[el simo]

Yah I can't argue there, his flip would give us more info. But at this point in time I am not convinced that he is scum, so I'm not willing to lynch him, not just for more information.

[Elleran]

Alright, so maybe el simo is town. Sweep might be scum

Doesn;t matter. Ell fits with so many different people it unbelievable and I cannot believe with how agreeable and passive and introspective and scummy he has been + the amount of people letting him go + the person chainsaw attacking me for FoSing him that there are not more votes on this wagon. It sickens me.

I've already explained this. I play more passively by choice. I only attack or be aggressive when I feel that I am confident enough to do so.

And you want some scum reads? I'll give you some.
I'm beginning to get a feeling that el simo is a scum. His logic makes sense in his arguments, but the way abandons cases looks like he's cutting whichever cases that are only catching attentions rather than steam. However, at the same time, he hasn't been detrimental but actually very helpful by inciting a great deal of discussion. el simo is either a very good scum or a really good townie. I'm leaning toward scum.

[Slaxx]

Then vote him

You voted Diddin for a lot less than that.

Care to explainnnn?