Mini 1061: Mafia in Someplace - Game Over!

[el simo]

Well I was sort of waiting for him to lay me at L-1 to confirm Retros who what now but I sorta ruined that by spilling the beans to defend myself so I'll have to wait for Retros full read on him. At this point in time I'd still rather see Jase go though.

[Slaxx]

Jase isnt going anywhere today.

I thought you were going to self hammer?

[el simo]

Eh? No?

[Slaxx]

"And I haven't self hammered because Slaxx was waiting on Sweep (to join my bandwagon I'm almost certain) so he could confirm the late to join bandwagons and just parrot other people tell. "

I guess I read that as self hammered yet.

[el simo]

"And I haven't self hammered because Slaxx was waiting on Sweep (to join my bandwagon I'm almost certain) so he could confirm the late to join bandwagons and just parrot other people tell. "

I guess I read that as self hammered yet.

Nope I don't intend on self hammering, unless town wants me to for some reason? If the town wants to lynch me then lynch me, I'm not going to lynch myself if that isn't what the town wants.

[RichardGHP]

Fourth Vote Count of Day 2:

[2] Smitster - [

Slaxx, Benmage

diddin,

Slaxx

el simo

DemonHybrid

]
[0] diddin - [

el simo

]
[3] el simo - [Smitster,

Slaxx, DemonHybrid

TheLonging,

Retrospective

Benmage]
[2] Sweep - [

Retrospective, Slaxx, diddin, Slaxx

Slaxx, Retrospective]
[0] Jase - [

el simo

]
[0] diddin - [

TheLonging

]
[4] Not Voting - [ICEninja, Sweep, Jase, DemonHybrid]

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to achieve a lynch and to end Day 2. Deadline for this day can be found here.

[ICEninja]

Please don't self hammer.

Retro, you're missing the point slightly. It isn't that I'm too lazy to go read Retro myself. I've done that. However, Sweep made a good point against you that you didn't do much case building, and for the most part made really general statements about Sweep. Part of your making a case against him determines how I feel about your alignment.

I'm uncomfortable with you trying to put a justification on your townread on me. I'm only town if Sweep is scum? If he's town, I'm scum for not being overjoyed about an Elleran lynch when you too switched to el simo? Granted, I don't think Sweep will flip town, but you should never give justification like that. It leaves a safe place for your vote for the next day, as well as mafia to sheep you.

You aren't "only town if Sweep is scum". I believe what I said was you're a rock solid town read in my book if Sweep flips scum, but this is not the case otherwise. I don't expect anyone to have a rock solid town read on me based on day 1 activities. That is fine with me. I also didn't say you're scum for not being overly eager on the Elleran lynch. You just aren't going to be solid town in my mind if Sweep flips town. You're definitely perceiving what I've said about you as an attack, which is very interesting. It wasn't directed as one in the slightest.

You've seemed pretty insecure this game, even more so than our last game together. Why is that, do you think?

[el simo]

You've seemed pretty insecure this game, even more so than our last game together. Why is that, do you think?

Perhaps I have dented his confidence more than he wants to admit.

[Benmage]

I'll iso sweep soon, but I really don't imagine myself switching votes.

[Jase]

I've been awake for nearly twenty four hours. I might post if I feel I feel i have it together enough. You shouldn't expect mcuh I'm afraid.

[Sweep]

Too many posts...

Okay firstly I want to get this out of the way, VOTE: Smitster . I don't see my view of why he should be lynched as wishy-washy, he should be lynched as he only acts as a distraction now and later on it is not going to get any better.

I must concede Slaxx that I never did get around to making a post about Elleran but the hammer has been blown out of proportion. We were approaching the end of the day and we needed to lynch someone, no-one else was going to be lynched so I hammered. Please tell me you would have not done the same thing.

Sweep who is scum gogogogogogogogogogogogogogogogogo

Your seriously pushing for my lynch on the "evidence" (oh wait) Retro has provided?

Deflection

I think you will find my point is that there is no substance (at this time) ?

Also, what is an appeal to attacker? If you are referring to where I called Retro a lier, he is.

[DemonHybrid]

Smitster is nothing but ultra-VI town, like TL said. Like I said, bad scum at least have some logic. He's been degraded to none.

I feel as if you're looking for an easy lynch, not even realizing that Smitster isn't going to be lynched today.

Vote: Sweep

I'm feeling Sweep/simo/possibly Benmage, but we'll see.

[Slaxx]

Sweep who is his buddy? And I was saying appeal to attacker because now that retrospect argument has gained ground you to say oh this is town on town. Also that post pretty much confirms you as scum. Mix in the fact ban an el simo don't want to vote you and bam we have our two scum

[el simo]

Sweep who is his buddy? And I was saying appeal to attacker because now that retrospect argument has gained ground you to say oh this is town on town. Also that post pretty much confirms you as scum. Mix in the fact ban an el simo don't want to vote you and bam we have our two scum

Siiigh which is why I wanted to be today's lynch, circumstantial statements like that will be blown out of the water when I flip and instead of relying on all sorts of wine to find scum you will be forced to do some actually looking.

[Retrospective]

Well it seems I'll be making this case. Because I'm doing it, I'm gonna do it right. This is going to very long. I'm also going to quote my old points I made in previous posts to show you that I was right way back when, and I did provide context before as well. Well here goes.

Oh, I'm also going to quote Jase as he was the only one who followed my train of logic on Sweep during day one. [This is part of the reasons I think Jase is so town.]

One more thing, read all the quotes. The real meat of the information is there.

--------

Random Number Generator picks random number 8!

Vote: Elleran

VOTE: Sweep for prizes.

Gonna pull an el simo and post this here: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... g_patterns
Very possible to be the separation tactic, but not incriminating by it's self.

------
It is more incriminating, however, when you realize that Sweep didn't address Elleran at any other point in the game.

The following posts are two posts apart. (Posts 123-125)

Politics, the economy? What more do you want me to say?

Bandwagons in RVS are not tells.
I think Retro is suspicious not because necessarily because of his absolute -> fuzzy (Although it is part of it) but also because of his explanation and defence being so weak.
Benmage is trying to play us.
The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.

I have thought more than most players in this game already.

1. el simo - He misunderstood the point I made about Retro as previously detailed. He makes a good narrow point about Retro and his use of WIFOM.
2. Iamnobody - Inactive
3. diddin - neutral, waiting for proper analysis.
4. TheLonging - You have been jostling me for more and more information to confirm or deny your suspicions, what are your suspicions, please make them public. I don't like the stoneclad confirmation that ICE is scum when the crap in the accusation is so obviously crap that it is only there to draw a reaction from the blind.

5. ICEninja - Done

6. Slaxx - I have made a post about Slaxx and my suspicions about his initial banter but am not sure what to make of it, since then he has offered no valuable insight apart from a a small cryptic clue.
7. Retrospective - Done

8. Elleran - Neutral, more needed

9. Sweep - Me
10. Benmage - Done
11. rewq455 - Inactive
12. Jase - Inactive

The accusations brought against me by ICE sum up to a RVS vote, please try to tell me that someone serious would try to form a case of a RVS vote. It does not add up.

My read on you Retro is scum currently due to the reasons stated previously.

So, VOTE: Retrospective

@Sweep; I just ISO'd you, and I don't see where you gave your read on ICE.

I think that ICE has a current pro-town read. I have mentioned reasons before. #125 and #123

#123 - The case against me was utter crap by ICE and must have been a gambit to draw out some scum looking for a bandwagon.
#125 - (From TheLonging's analysis) I don't like the stoneclad confirmation that ICE is scum when the crap in the accusation is so obviously crap that it is only there to draw a reaction from the blind.

Put these together and you get the picture as to why my read on ICE is clean so far, The accusation is so obvious that it is only a real accusation to the blind.

This is incriminating for several reasons. First I'll focus on the the clearing of ICE, then we can look at him denying it.

Why did you assume that ICE was using a gambit? This concerns me a bit because you seemed to have skipped over the possibility of him being scum. For this to be true, ICE would also have to be reasonably sure that you were town as well. Upon rereading, it appears he wasn't. This is an interesting reaction and I will probably bring this up later.

Well I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure Ices 'case' was a pretty standard RVS escape wagon. Not some an attempt at some sort of crazy scum finding masterstroke. It's silly to attack him for it like some people have, but equally as silly to go 'Hey nice job there townie McGuee'. Either way your explanation of his actions suggest that you either know that he's town, or you want us to think he's town when he's not. One way or the other you come off suspicious.

My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

Sweep completely eliminated the chance of ICE being scum even though ICE built a case on him and voted him. He was almost instantly sure that ICE was town. The reason why this is incriminating is because I think it was a slip as well as one of the moves he has already shown that he likes to do. (Appeal to attacker, read slaxx's post)

Hold on this is where it gets better. I think it's pretty apparent you can tell Sweep's position on ICE. So now read this.

My first suspicion grew on him when he implied beyond a doubt that ICE was town on like the second day. He didn't provide any case to support it it was just a matter of fact. In my opinion, he slipped. He knows that ICE isn't mafia and let that idea shine too brightly in his post. There was no way he could've been as sure as he was that ICE was town especially when ICE had put pressure on him at the same time. People were actually voting ICE at the time that sweep made the absolute statement.

Please provide Quotes to back this up, from my viewpoint I simply asserted it was such a crap case and it is acknowledged (now) that Ice does not make as crap cases as that (well, maybe not but the case was really really crap.) hence it must have been a gambit.

I was describing it as a null tell rather than town as you suggest.

Oh really? Then why is it in you next post you said ICE was town? And don't even try, it's pretty clear that you thought he was town.

I don't feel like I should have to say anything as it speaks for itself but if you missed it go read his quotes. Something doesn't belong, huh?

--------
Next we'll look at how he followed BW's late but never added anything of value.

Sweep added nothing to the Elleran wagon but let's see how many times he promised content.

I am not going to comment on Ice's post until I have my own ideas on Elleran.

Thoughts on Ell coming next post.

Then is his only post analyzing Elleran.

Elleran does make some excuses and apologies over his play indicating nerves over possible slips. (school, hamlet) but I don't have time now for a full analysis as I have been promising. Will 100% do it tomorrow.

Go check the thread, everyone had been saying it for pages. Also if you read my post after it I showed how this tell isn't even being used on the person who did it the most, diddin. [Don't worry, diddin, I don't suspect you.]

Sweep only mentioned el simo three times.

Every time I find myself reading a post by el simo, I find myself agreeing with the well structured and logical arguments which he presents, my only criticism would be that he has been quite narrow in his analysis. Mainly focusing on one or two players. His argument about Retro is very well developed but his argument on "a classic scum" (Elleran) can be summed up in the space of a few paragraphs. The disparity between the lengths indicates that he has spent a lot more time targeting Retro than Elleran even though he thinks that Elleran is more suspicious.

This is when el simo was leading and everyone was taking turns saying he was town (much to my frustration)
Then after awhile you guys start to see el simo in a scummy light and this is Sweep's only other post about el simo before day 2 after this:

About El Simo, to me his "pressure" is not pressure at all and am not sure why no-one picked up on this earlier. Maybe because his aura is "too town". I think a re-read of his play is in order.

Again we had pages of saying that his Pressure wasn't pressure before Sweep said this.

Okay so 5 pages overnight. I still want a lynch on Retro because of the past and because of his immature playing of the game. My second suspect has to be currently Simo who I see as running around his own tail trying to confuse everyone by re-refuting each point made against him by ICE, arguing over theory (which is leading us astray) and flipflopping around the shop who to vote. Saying this I still want a lynch on Retro.

Hay that sounds familiar too!
Both of these serve as a way that he can say he offered his consent without actually providing anything.

Now for me:
el simo and ICE attacked me for the stupid three mafia thing. (Now would be a good time to say "I'm sorry, Retro, it really wasn't a slip. Sorry for drawing it out and being annoying.") They also didn't like my defense to it, quickly after Sweep joins the BW.

My read on you Retro is scum currently due to the reasons stated previously.

So, VOTE: Retrospective

He didn't state any reasons previously. ICE and el simo did.

--------
Now we're gonna look at how much of a broken record he is. And I'll point out where everyone else stopped voting me and where Sweep continued. (Jase did most of the work for this section)
His post on page 8, #192 is too long for me to quote, but read over it and see if you remember hearing all those arguments before. I'll give you a hint: ICE and el simo.

Retro: I have constantly pounded you and it is evident why after reading the thread. Your arguments consistently contain huge logical flaws and whereas your original action was not very scummy, these huge holes are (as detailed extensively by el simo) extremely damning.

THIS IS WHERE OTHER PEOPLE STOPPED VOTING ME.

He then quoted some random section of one my posts and said "Another logical flaw."

Have you considered for one second that your logic is consistently flawed? Because I agree with simo, does that mean that my argument is any weaker? I agree with Simo because I have read the same things as you, I have read the same defence that he has and come to the same conclusion. You are just trying to discredit me by repeating the same argument that my material is recycled when the truth is that my argument is stronger as I am not the only one who thinks it.

Are you defending the fact that your defences contain logical flaws?

Also your incessant mentioning of me "parroting" is not a reason to discredit me. (and not a reason why I am scummy because I am not parroting). You are so angry because someone suspects you and you think that being angry will help clear your name.

Okay so 5 pages overnight. I still want a lynch on Retro because of the past and because of his immature playing of the game. My second suspect has to be currently Simo who I see as running around his own tail trying to confuse everyone by re-refuting each point made against him by ICE, arguing over theory (which is leading us astray) and flipflopping around the shop who to vote. Saying this I still want a lynch on Retro.

Now I'm going to post some of Jase's arguments:

Anyways, it looks like the day is winding down. I like sweep as a lynch candidate. I've seen scum hold on desperately to what seemed like a sure lynch (in the case retro) and I think that's what's happening here. I would also accept diddin or ell.

@Jase
You say that "hanging onto a sure lynch" like I don't believe that Retro is scum, the opposite is true, I still think Retro is scum.

Yeah, you're not scum because you're town right? That dispels my suspicion then. Yep. Well sort of. Actually not at all. I didn't say I thought you were town pushing a bad wagon. I think you're scum who's still trying to get what must have looked like a guaranteed lynch at first. How in any way does 'I think he's scum' refute that?

Sweep: Why are you so adamant that retro is scum? Your case against him from what I can see is that 1. He reacted poorly to early pressure and 2. His arguments are flawed. Is there a part I missed? Why does this make him more scummy than anyone else.

Sweep because early on retro was one hell of an easy target. Now it seems sweep is still holding on to a possible retro lynch for dear life. He hasn't tried to sell the wagon at all nor is he actively pursuing retro, but he still has him as his top suspect.

It's pretty easy to see that Jase has a point when you can see how early other's stopped voting me because I stop being their top suspect. It's curious why Sweep had so much to say just about me and literally no one else.

--------
Stuff on other players:

In my reread, I noticed that Sweep attacked Benmage a little bit. This seems to be the only thing he did himself without following other players. He attacked Ben's actvity and Ben saying that he was vet without adding much content in the beginning of the game. I hope this gives those thinking a Sweep/Ben team pause. Seems unnessary for someone who only provides recycled garbage to focus his attention on his partner without the help of someone else. Plus he never focused on Elleran so I don't see a theme here.

Through skimming through the game again I realized just how much fire there was between diddin and Elleran. There really isn't any way I can see this kid being mafia.

-------------
Before I made this post, I had slightly forgotten how much I suspected Sweep. el simo is scummy, yes. But please can we lynch Sweep today? This paired with my two cases prior to this post and Slaxx's post I'm not quite sure how you guys could justify not following me.

[Retrospective]

That long enough for you guys? rage rage rage.

[Retrospective]

Now go ISO me and read my last three exchanges with Sweep about my previous case. With all these quotes to back me up you guys should finally see the light.

[Sweep]

You do sound very sure that I am scum, I am looking forward to your reaction once I flip town.

My arguments are crap, my play is poor, my activity is poor. Pull the trigger..

[diddin]

That long enough for you guys?

That's what he said.

Unvote Vote: Sweep

I've liked a Sweep lynch for ages and his coming back he says NOTHING about the competing wagon. NOTHING at all.

Scumbuddies, ho!

BTW a Sweep scum flip will essentially confirm Smit as town tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

You do sound very sure that I am scum, I am looking forward to your reaction once I flip town.

My arguments are crap, my play is poor, my activity is poor. Pull the trigger..

That is your defense? Seriously?

Retro put together a very comprehensive and complete case against you that makes a lot of sense, and indicates beyond reasonable doubt that you are scum. What do you have to say about this?

In the absence of a miraculous defense, I am very ready to hammer you. I think now would be a good time to claim if you haven't (I didn't see one at a quick glance) and present something damn solid.

[el simo]

Yeah I don't think there is much arguing against Retro with this one. His case on Sweep is to Bens on mine, I can't defend it because it is what happened, same as Sweep.

ICE I believe he did claim in that post, "once I flip town."

vote: Sweep

I feel sorry for my replacement. If the game doesn't start up before I leave (2 days and 16 hours from this post) then good luck to my replacement, to the town, and I'm going to cry if we get this win and has to go on my record as being replaced out.

[Slaxx]

Dude, we are doing great so far, no worries.

With his last post Sweep pretty much claimed scum. Lets see Ben's comment on this wagon before anyone hammers.

[Slaxx]

Simo, we lynched scum on D1, and the handywork of one of our PRs gave us another mislynch (not like we'll be needing it )

[Benmage]

Still have yet to iso.... looks like hes L-1. I'll do it tomorrow durin the day since I'm working in the evening, if I don't get to it tonight.

[Slaxx]

All you have to do is look at the big comprehensive case made my Retro (trust me, its good) then look at his defense to it.

I will shorten the banter down for you:

Retro makes good case
Sweep says, yeah, well I am town.

Tah dah.

Also Sweep needs to claim.