The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[danakillsu]

6/10 seems like a good deal to me, but I guess I might look at things differently...

[Square Obscure]

Dana, why are you so bent on lynching Bowser today? A replacement might clean up his play (what limited play we saw at least)

[Nero Cain]

Nice misrep bolded. I didn’t say you had not quoted Thor. I said you had not shown a SPECIFIC post where you explained why it was scummy.

How is quoting a

SPECIFIC

post not showing you? This is you just arguing for the sake of arguing.

You quoted Thor’s 91 (stating he had a solid Town read on Nik) and responded with the following –

Are we reading the same thread?

Him and Nik's cripple fight looks like early distancing.

The first sentence implies that you disagree with Thor’s read on Nik.

The second states that it could be distancing.

You may have intended to say Thor was scummy with this response but it is far from clear. I initially read it as you saying Nik is scummy.

Again for it to be distancing would require them both to be scum.

Here’s a tip – questioning you to determine your motivations is not unusual for Mafia games. And once again Nik pretty much said that he questioned Thor’s read on him but didn’t attribute it as solely scum-motivated. You on the other hand are alternately positioning Thor’s read on Nik as either Buddying or Distancing. You don’t seem to be leaving any room for Thor Town.

So are you saying that its impossible for it to be buddying or distancing? That's pretty unwise unless...

Nice sarcasm. Why in the hell would you even bring up the bussing angle then when you are the only player voting Thor? Who in the hell is bussing him then?

So 1 player voting somebody they think is possibly scum is a scumtell? WHAT?!?

[Thor665]

Hey, Nero, I'm the most likely scum in the game and you missed the post where I directly addressed you and asked you a question. I do actually mostly just post to hear myself talk because I'm massively narcissistic - but let's humor me and respond anyway.

[Nero Cain]

I saw it. And I'm still working on repomded to you and Furry so chill.

[Nero Cain]

*response

[Thor665]

Oh, okay.

This should be a pretty awesomely epic response then, I look forward to it.

[SaintKerrigan]

Data has requested replacement. UntrodTripod (the other head of the Bowser hydra) has told me that he, in fact, still wishes to remain in the game, but will not be able to post until the 30th, so the Bowser slot will not be replaced. I'm not sure yet whether he'll keep posting as Bowser or if he'll revert to his regular account.

Vote count and prod check coming shortly.

[Square Obscure]

Okay, now I'm

really

suspicious. How come the two top wagons suddenly decide to replace out?

[Feysal]

Though you expressed your dislike for outside factors influencing the game, fact is I'm dividing my time between this and another game, and it is having an impact on my performance, something I am trying to remedy. I've not been here to directly involve myself when the action has been hot, so I'm reduced to commenting on it afterwards. But since you asked for clarification, there were three things I was saying.

Are you objecting to LMP’s personal experiences with you being used as a meta-tool by him?

No. Meta is part of the game, and it goes both ways too. I simply explained why my presence in this game has been somewhat lacking, which I admit.

Also, has Data reported back with his kill flavor?
Thor demands it!

He has not been seen since his vigilante claim, and is apparently replacing out.

[Nero Cain]

Oh, okay.

This should be a pretty

awesomely epic

response then, I look forward to it.

I doubt you or anyone would find this epic. Unless its epic fail....

OH NICE!!! Good way to deflect. Yes I'm well aware of whats going on it the thread. Sure I find it useless and its something to look back at but I feel Thor has done this in combination with other scummy posts.

I've actually been ignoring this case because it was such an obviously case that it wasn't even worth discussing. But this comment was actually interesting to me.

Other then my town read/distancing/buddying business with Nikanor - what have I done that you consider scummy? I can't recall you ever mentioning anything.

Perhaps it is. Perhaps I'm totally wrong.

There's also the vote hoping. You went from the mimi BW on LMP to Dana to Data. All three of the major bandwagons today. As I told Furry this practice makes little to no sense to me. If folks are just bandwagoning to

gain reaction

why not just go around to each and every player, bandwagon them and then according to the plan the scum and

ONLY

the scum will react violently thus its a foolproof plan, right?

Since this is such a common town play I feel its very easy for scum to

blend in

.

But Furry says this is impossible so he has to be right 'cause he has a reputation, right?

Can you elaborate on your Nik read? You said gut, so what post(s) made him sound uber townie?

Not a big fan of ISO 14 either. Was it really necessary to put vote on somebody?

Do you find it odd that Furry and Moi are defending you tooth and nail. You don't think this makes them slightly suspicious?

unvote

more to come soon

[SaintKerrigan]

About one kilometer southwest of the extraction point
Colonized Sector 2, UTP Planet Liten, Tynnfred System
December 4th, 2486 SC (Day 3, Month 15 LC)
0941 hours SST (1600 hours LLT2)

Dylan stared ahead through his tacvisor. Along with Ingrid and Jezzy, he was responsible for scouting ahead for the main party. At the moment, he could see the stiffweeds began to fade away, giving way to the regular boing grass.

He heard rapid footsteps, and he turned to see Ingrid run-springing across the boing grass to him. "Look, over there!" she panted when she reached him.

Dylan turned his head in the direction she was indicating, using the tacvisor to zoom in. Off in the distance, a strange animal, resembling a cross between a horse and an anteater, was sticking its elongated, snaking tongue into a half-meter-high, orange-petaled, sunflower-shaped plant. More flowers were nearby, varying in color from vibrant pink to dark crimson to royal purple. More of the horse-anteater creatures were present as well, some with their tongues in the flowers, some rolling on their backs on the boing grass, some standing still and wiggling their proboscis-snouts in a myriad of contorted ways.

"How fascinating," Dylan replied.

"I know, right? Aren't those the strangest creatures you ever saw?"

"Oh, um, that too."

"Wait a sec. You were talking about the flowers?"

"Yeah. They resemble the sunflowers of Earth, but with broader petals, and yet not as high. I wonder if the red shades are meant to catch the light from Liten's star...even if they aren't, they still make for a pretty hue, with the goldenrod-colored stems."

Ingrid giggled. "I never knew you were such a flower aficionado."

Jezzy walked up to them. "What are you guys yakking about?" she asked sternly. "Why aren't you in your places?"

"Just admiring the view," Ingrid replied. "Dylan's quite the flower lover, it seems."

All three of them were silent. Then Jezzy erupted with laughter. "You gotta be kidding me. I knew you had a soft side, Dylan, but I didn't figure you'd be the type for girly stuff."

Dylan blushed. "What's wrong with that?"

"Nothing. I find it humorous, that's all. All right, Flower Boy, you and Ingrid get back on patrol before our wet-ear Captain chews our asses out." Jezebel chuckled again and turned to stride off to her formation position.

Ingrid giggled. "Well, Flower Boy, looks like you've got yourself a nickname at last!"

Vote Count 1.4

(6) Bowser: Spyrex, HackerHuck, Thor665, danakillsu, Cogito Ergo Sum, Nikanor
(2) Square Obscure: AlmasterGM, LunchMePlz
(2) Data: Slacks, Bowser
(2) Nero Cain: Furry, MagnaofIllusion
(1) danakillsu: apothecaryplusCRABCAKES

Not Voting: Feysal, Data, Twomz, Square Obscure, Nova Cain

With eighteen people alive, it takes ten votes to lynch.
The deadline is Sunday, October 31st, 2010 at 1:00 p.m. CST.

Slaxx and apathyplusCUPCAKES have been prodded

[Thor665]

There's also the vote hoping. You went from the mimi BW on LMP to Dana to Data. All three of the major bandwagons today. As I told Furry this practice makes little to no sense to me. If folks are just bandwagoning to

gain reaction

why not just go around to each and every player, bandwagon them and then according to the plan the scum and

ONLY

the scum will react violently thus its a foolproof plan, right?

Since this is such a common town play I feel its very easy for scum to

blend in

.

But Furry says this is impossible so he has to be right 'cause he has a reputation, right?

First off, i don't recall myself, Furry, or anyone suggesting his read on vote hopping as a scumtell was inherently superior to your because he has a reputation. I don't even know how that matters, or what point you're trying to convey other then "woe is me, a more experienced player believes differently then I do and more people believe him then me" <--and if that is what you're syaing, maybe you should wonder *why* a more experienced player disagrees with your scumtell.

I don't think vote hopping is either scummy or townish. You yourself say town do it a lot and scum then do it to blend in - this suggests that even you should be able to see it as a null tell because you admit both sides do it. Why was my vote hopping more likely to be scummy then townish? If you can't answer that then you're being silly.

Can you elaborate on your Nik read? You said gut, so what post(s) made him sound uber townie?

Do you have a scum read on Nik I should be trying to dismantle? Any answer I provide will just be a long way of saying 'gut' again.
More specifically, how is me saying I have a town read on Nik scummy, what scum agenda do you think I'm advancing here?

Not a big fan of ISO 14 either. Was it really necessary to put vote on somebody?

Without even looking back at ISO 14 - yes. Was there a big *problem* with me putting a vote on somebody? Again, This is yet another thing you're poiunting at, asking a question, and failing to explain what the scum motivation was.

Do you find it odd that Furry and Moi are defending you tooth and nail. You don't think this makes them slightly suspicious?

For what, buddying me? Eh, maybe. But I also think I should probably look townish and that your case looks weak so it could also be scummy potential hunting of a weak town (you) or it could be town just disagreeing with a weak case and poking holes in it to see if you look like scum.

Should you unvoting me after being pressured by other players look suspicious? <--- this is the same sort of question as above, it's a silly premise. The answer to both is maybe and it's up to the individual to apply their own interpretation of the events to see where they think they fall on the town/scum spectrum.

more to come soon

Scummy actions by me, I hope.

@MoI - this is a crazy silly case he's presenting, so he's obviously silly newbie one way or the other. Why are you seeing newbie scum more then newbie town from him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay, now I'm really suspicious. How come the two top wagons suddenly decide to replace out?

Whut? Did you are Nero Cain ask to replace? Because at this juncture both of you are more viable wagons than Data.

Not that I don’t find it odd that Data immediately replaced after outing himself and being under SK suspicion.

Not to gang jump over a question at dana - but is that really the SO case? Do we think he's a VIscum? Because that's what the case here seems to imply. Don't like the case.

Actually that’s not the case on SquareOb but a probing question to Dana. Thanks for killing it’s effectiveness Thor

@MoI - this is a crazy silly case he's presenting, so he's obviously silly newbie one way or the other. Why are you seeing newbie scum more then newbie town from him?

Newb he may be but I’ve seen his play as Scum in a Large Theme game (Supernatural Mafia). There are some similarities in his reactions here to the way he reacted to pressure there that have tweaked my interest. Not direct parallels mind you but enough it pinged my gut.

Sorry MoI, I have a hard time getting into games day 1. Most of my thought process on scum hunting comes from voting analysis and night actions. Don't worry, if I notice something glaring, I'll point it out .

Hey you will not find a bigger VC analysis proponent than me but I hate the ‘Can’t do much until flips’ attitude. I’m going to have to read that Car Themed game you played with Andrius and some random Town game of yours to see if I buy this or not.

Again for it to be distancing would require them both to be scum.

But it’s not necessarily distancing according to you … it could also be buddying. The only consistent think I can see from this is that from Thor having a gut Town read on Nik he must be scum. Color me not impressed with that logic.

So are you saying that its impossible for it to be buddying or distancing? That's pretty unwise unless...

Sigh. I think it is fairly unlikely that Thor did either of those things as scum Day 1. Is it impossible? No, but I find him much more likely to bus a partner Day 1 than buddy a Town player or concoct some elaborate (and frankly stupid) distancing gambit. Love the way you continue to not acknowledge your position is flawed and respond with escalating levels of misrep.

So 1 player voting somebody they think is possibly scum is a scumtell? WHAT?!?

Want to take a crack at actually addressing the point again?

You said that Thor made a stupid comment and was possibly being bussed since this is a large game. Yet you are the only person voting for him. HOW IN THE HELL CAN HE BE BEING BUSSED FOR A STUPID COMMMENT AND YOU NOT BE SCUM IF YOU ARE HIS ONLY VOTER?

[Nikanor]

Why do you feel the need to pre-emptively attack Data with this?

It's not a pre-emptive attack if I've been continuously attacking him after his claim.
Either he's a vig and will be blocked, or he's an SK and will be blocked, or he's mafia and will fakeclaim being blocked. Fo' rizzle.
I'm getting more of a scum read on MoI. :O

Data's replacing out just means that his kill method was "eaten alive" or something silly like that. I seriously do not know why we are not lynching him today.

[Furry]

Why do you feel the need to pre-emptively attack Data with this?

It's not a pre-emptive attack if I've been continuously attacking him after his claim.
Either he's a vig and will be blocked, or he's an SK and will be blocked, or he's mafia and will fakeclaim being blocked. Fo' rizzle.

All good. If he is scum it would tie up scum RB ability, if he is SK no town roles are blocked, if he is a vig a cop would get to investigate tonight.

Data's replacing out just means that his kill method was "eaten alive" or something silly like that. I seriously do not know why we are not lynching him today.

I agree that he is still more likely SK over vig (im good at finding SKs it seems) but its worth seeing what develops there first.

@NC - Out of curiosity, what makes the Thor->Nik buddying more serious then any other of the people calling eachother town events?

[danakillsu]

Dana, why are you so bent on lynching Bowser today? A replacement might clean up his play (what limited play we saw at least)

Umm.... That's not a good thing. imo, Bowser has shown he is scum. A replacement convincing the town that he is NOT scum can only be a bad thing.

[AlmasterGM]

Data replacing out is scumtastic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's not a pre-emptive attack if I've been continuously attacking him after his claim.
Either he's a vig and will be blocked, or he's an SK and will be blocked, or he's mafia and will fakeclaim being blocked. Fo' rizzle.

It’s pre-emptive in that you are calling out actions that can’t be known for sure until later on.

What if he isn’t blocked and we see multiple bodies? What benefit to Town does your statement have under that circumstance? I understand your thought process but don’t really see the point of the statement until, you know, something actually happens.

@MOD

– I’ll be V/LA from 4pmEDT today until Monday morning for my regular weekend family duties.

To all –

with Halloween and Trick or Treat being this weekend I will have less weekend access than normal. That said I will be should be able to get on to assist if we are up against a deadline with a No Lynch looming.

[Thor665]

Actually that’s not the case on SquareOb but a probing question to Dana. Thanks for killing it’s effectiveness Thor

Derpy-herpy, tell you what, I won't mention it to him and you can now grouse that he missed/dodged it.

Newb he may be but I’ve seen his play as Scum in a Large Theme game (Supernatural Mafia). There are some similarities in his reactions here to the way he reacted to pressure there that have tweaked my interest. Not direct parallels mind you but enough it pinged my gut.

Yeah, but I'm just kind of uneasy at the attempt to start another wagon this late in the game day for something you don't feel is more of a screaming tell. Thoughts?

@Almaster - yes, Data replacing out is scumtastic. But, seeing as how we're not lynching Data today no matter whats, why don't you weigh in on something exciting - like, I dunno, which wagon you think is best, thoughts on Nero Cain, compliments about my awesomely manly beard, something.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If your beard is awesome, why is your hand obscuring part of the view? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

P.S. I still like my Bowservote.

[apathyplusCUPCAKES]

/prodded

[Nero Cain]

I also agree with MOI about Daniel. His RVSish vote was scummy as all get out.

How?

Why are you asking just me and not both of us? But I can tell you why I found it scummy. He's putting a SRS vote on a bandwagon and trying to make it look like a joke/RVS vote.

That was not a serious vote. How are you thinking that was a serious vote?

He posted twice in the thread before his vote. If he wanted to make an RVS vote I think then (his first two posts) would have been the best time but no he waited and put the third vote on. I can't imagine a random vote is just haphazardly being placed on a guy with two votes.

+theres no way for you to know Daniels thoughts

And again why is MOI (who also said it was scummy) being left out?

Sorta. Some people have very easy to read metas as a certain alignment that are possible to pick up on within a few posts. While I do not belive Nik is one of these (his meta comes into play midgame usually), its entirely possible that Thor has a meta read on him. It also is possible that one of his posts hit a huge towntell for him, I normally start getting my town/scum reads underway within the first five pages.

Did Thor say that? No. Perhaps you should let him speak for himself. Personally I don't care to much for the whole meta thing. Most players will do things over and over again weather town or scum so for the most part I find meta null. Even Nik questioned Thor.

So you are just going to stick to "its impossible to get a strong town read on page 5" because Thor isnt explaining it?

I went back and he said its gut. Since its not meta, Does this change anything for you? I also never said its impossible but you're doing a good job painting. I do think that's its highly unlikely to have an accurate read so early without inside information.

This point doesnt count given the bolded where you admit it doesnt count. You say it is common practice, then vote him for it because you are not a fan of it. I am not a fan of quite a few things, but I am not going to just lay down a vote on something that I know is not a scumtell. Bandwagoning is awesome though, so many new people hating it makes me realize my age on this site.

This is lie. I also said this practice makes it easy for scum to blend in so

since I'm assuming he is scum I'm also assuming he is blending in

. Its very inaccurate to say this cannot be a scum tell as I've already noted this makes it easy for scum to blend in. You think it is impossible for scum to blend in on a wagon? Sounds like it.

You ignore the fact that you admit that town does it quite a bit to as its a playstyle thing. One of my few early stage playsyles is the random wagon since its a good way to get some reads of players. Bolded is confirmation bais though, continuing to throw out this point on him. You say "since I am assuming" which means you only are using this tell since you already think he is scum. Its very inaccurate to say this cannot be a null tell as Ive already noted how player of both aglinments do this. You think its impossible for town to act like this? Sounds like it.

You said nothing about both alignments doing this until 273. Before it was

not a scumtell

so you feel it is impossible for scum to bandwagon and blend in.

[Thor665]

more to come soon

Is the post above the more?

[Twomz]

It seems like the new 'in' thing to do is if you get attacked day 1, just replace out! Not like it's part of the game or anything. I'll admit it could be that on day 1 people tend to attack lurkers or people who aren't putting as much effort in, and those are the people who are most likely to be replaced anyway... but it's still silly.

Halloween party this weekend, I should still be on though... but if I post something tomorrow after midnight you might want to ignore it, I may be drunk out of my mind. Probably not, but maybe.