SCUMCHAT NEEDS YOU!

[Zachrulez]

I've just never bothered with scum chat. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything but the fact that it's never really crossed my mind to try it.

I think this is the main target audience of this OP. If you like ms, enjoy instant messaging on occasion and don't take it too seriously, give it a try!

Well I also get kinda lost in chats with a lot of people, and I can also be shy around people I don't know, so there's a few more barriers too...

[crywolf20084]

PFFFFT

This shy excuse is lame. if you can post on the forum, then you can sure as hell post in the chat.

Though I must admit when I joined scumchat, I had no clue what was going on and lurked for sometime til the activity died down and I could follow what in the world was going on.

[Zachrulez]

PFFFFT

This shy excuse is lame. if you can post on the forum, then you can sure as hell post in the chat.

Maybe I just fear rejection...

[VP Baltar]

Note the word "before". I'm not talking about any game I've played in. I'm talking about the times when your average game had an Invitational-esque playerlist.

But how much of that is hindsight? I feel there are plenty of newer players that can play just as well, if not better than some of the people from days gone by (Ojanen, Zorblag, Gammagooey, SerialClergyman, hitogoroshi, etc. etc.) The site is larger now of course so there ARE more players that fall into the VI category, but I don't really feel like the proportion of "good" players (meaning players that can play effectively toward their wincon) is any less than it was back then. Obviously both of us are just basing our thoughts on general impressions, but it is what it is I suppose.

[chamber]

Note the word "before". I'm not talking about any game I've played in. I'm talking about the times when your average game had an Invitational-esque playerlist.

But how much of that is hindsight? I feel there are plenty of newer players that can play just as well, if not better than some of the people from days gone by (Ojanen, Zorblag, Gammagooey, SerialClergyman, hitogoroshi, etc. etc.) The site is larger now of course so there ARE more players that fall into the VI category, but I don't really feel like the proportion of "good" players (meaning players that can play effectively toward their wincon) is any less than it was back then. Obviously both of us are just basing our thoughts on general impressions, but it is what it is I suppose.

I think the average game back then was a lot better for a couple reasons, one of which is almost surely just me being bias but anyway:

Back then the site was a LOT smaller, and growing MUCH slower(this is at least my impression). As such new players interacted with a higher percentage of older players, and picked up being proficient, if not amazing, much faster. It also meant that VIs got learnt by the entire community faster and therefore were forced to change there ways much faster.

Back then the site was a LOT younger, as such the deviation in skill between those that were good and those that were new was generally smaller. I think this matters because the enjoyment of a game for those in it is much more about even(ish) skill level than high skill level. The problem is that many players that have been around since 05 are now at a high skill level(not to say they are the only ones at a high skill level) and finding a game that's mostly high skill level players is quite difficult, making them remember when they were worse fondly.

So in conclusion, I don't think anyone's claiming that only those from before 05(or any time period) are good players, just that its now a lot harder for them to find enjoyable games.

[JDodge]

Note the word "before". I'm not talking about any game I've played in. I'm talking about the times when your average game had an Invitational-esque playerlist.

But how much of that is hindsight? I feel there are plenty of newer players that can play just as well, if not better than some of the people from days gone by (Ojanen, Zorblag, Gammagooey, SerialClergyman, hitogoroshi, etc. etc.) The site is larger now of course so there ARE more players that fall into the VI category, but I don't really feel like the proportion of "good" players (meaning players that can play effectively toward their wincon) is any less than it was back then. Obviously both of us are just basing our thoughts on general impressions, but it is what it is I suppose.

metas shift rather slowly in such a way that people don't realize their own personal metas are obsolete until it's far too late; by then it's also usually too ingrained for them to teach themselves differently, hence the "it used to be better" effect

[Elmo]

Back then the site was a LOT smaller, and growing MUCH slower(this is at least my impression). As such new players interacted with a higher percentage of older players, and picked up being proficient, if not amazing, much faster.

I was thinking of posting essentially this in reverse; if the site's smaller, it's much harder to play many games without seeing at least one really good player. You could make an argument that there'd be less clueless-type VIs.

[shaft.ed]

I dont know how well that argument that VIs would be rooted out holds up. When I got here nearly all of the players in my initial games were quite new at the time. I also remember a particular game having 2 VIs in it. So it's not like they didn't exist. Things were just always better "back in my day"

[VP Baltar]

@ chamber-So the older scummers are now supposed to be the teacher roles, but don't enjoy playing those roles?

metas shift rather slowly in such a way that people don't realize their own personal metas are obsolete until it's far too late; by then it's also usually too ingrained for them to teach themselves differently, hence the "it used to be better" effect

I agree...though I don't think it's impossible for older players to make the transition. You and Shanba are examples of scumchatters from the older days that I still see actively playing and enjoying games. You were involved in Oman's game, so maybe you can tell me your perspective more now that the heat of battle is over.

[chamber]

Back then the site was a LOT smaller, and growing MUCH slower(this is at least my impression). As such new players interacted with a higher percentage of older players, and picked up being proficient, if not amazing, much faster.

I was thinking of posting essentially this in reverse; if the site's smaller, it's much harder to play many games without seeing at least one really good player. You could make an argument that there'd be less clueless-type VIs.

Im confused because your statement seems to be the exact same as mine, not the opposite.

@ chamber-So the older scummers are now supposed to be the teacher roles, but don't enjoy playing those roles?

Well more that back in the day there was a higher teacher:student ratio, and teachers were closer in skill level to the students. This is obviously a bit of an exaggeration but putting one good player in a game with 11 bad players is simply not going to be enjoyable for the good player.

[VP Baltar]

Well more that back in the day there was a higher teacher:student ratio, and teachers were closer in skill level to the students. This is obviously a bit of an exaggeration but putting one good player in a game with 11 bad players is simply not going to be enjoyable for the good player.

We're getting to the heart of the issue now and an MD topic I have been planning on starting for awhile now, 'the efficacy of ICs and the role they play in shaping new players to the site'. If only I would find the time to write the damn thing.

[shaft.ed]

Just do it like Hunter would have

[VP Baltar]

Wait until the assignment is 8 weeks overdue and turn in the drug-induced ramblings you scrawled while blowing your entire forward for the article?

[shaft.ed]

exactly, its almost 8 weeks past due by my count. You'd better start that bender already

[VP Baltar]

Just need a line on some good acid....I know I put Ythill's number around here somewhere.....

[Thestatusquo]

Sensfan isnt a scumchatter, ftr.

[VP Baltar]

Point?

[chamber]

Point?

You opened claiming scumchatters were elitiest when its really just an old player thing. <3

[JDodge]

Well more that back in the day there was a higher teacher:student ratio, and teachers were closer in skill level to the students. This is obviously a bit of an exaggeration but putting one good player in a game with 11 bad players is simply not going to be enjoyable for the good player.

We're getting to the heart of the issue now and an MD topic I have been planning on starting for awhile now, 'the efficacy of ICs and the role they play in shaping new players to the site'. If only I would find the time to write the damn thing.

ICs don't really shape new players that much - most new players are shaped by looking up people with reputations for being good and then attempting to emulate their successes. To put it simply, the people with the most power over the next year's meta development are the scummies judges.

I agree...though I don't think it's impossible for older players to make the transition. You and Shanba are examples of scumchatters from the older days that I still see actively playing and enjoying games. You were involved in Oman's game, so maybe you can tell me your perspective more now that the heat of battle is over.

I've actively changed my outlook on mafia through my time spent working with the theories behind them and whatnot to the point where I'm not a good example. Some games I enjoy; I enjoyed PEGBAM immensely mostly because it was filled with the people from the "good ol' days". The main issue is when people just make bafflingly stupid playstyle choices that hurt the town more than they help quite obviously and then still insist that it's the right way to do things. Pointing back to Oman's game, I think Exe and Kast were perfect examples of this - in fact, my entire reason for pushing Kast was because he insisted on posting pointless, distracting walls of text of useless information. It's gotten to the point where proper pro-town play is as much about removing destructive influences as it is hunting scum, and that just isn't an enjoyable way of playing for me.

[VP Baltar]

Point?

You opened claiming scumchatters were elitiest when its really just an old player thing. <3

I don't feel SCers are elitist, so much as some of the things they say can come across as elitist, but you are correct that you are not alone in that field.

[Oman]

A comment at the end of PEGBAM was that it was a great example why people shouldn't push past their prime. I don't play well anymore, and I don't like that. My time has been and gone, thus I won't be playing (at least for a while). However to call us elitist and say that scumchatters are putting down the new-school is false.

As Shea pointed out, elitism is far from exclusive to scumchat, and remember that scumchat has picked up new guys as regular chatters.

Regards ICs: I feel dodge is right. In all my time ICing I've always felt like the only players I really impacted were through social means, not through the game (panacea, etc). I very much doubt that newbies will act as their IC does for more than a game or two. If they do, then god help us with the quality of some ICs.

[Porochaz]

or SE's, but thats an argument for another thread.

[Quagmire]

When jeep posted his revolutionary 'jeep's tells' way back when, it turned into a handbook of how to play and evaluate mafia. Then the wiki started. Then my play started to diminish.

[Quagmire]

Quick idea: This whole "bring scumchat back" thing gave me the idea of bringing BSW night back to go along with it. Anyone interested/Have a specific night in mind?

yes this

sundays

[Porochaz]

BSW?