Mini 1082 (Guns and Ropes: Midland): An Unfaithful Ending.

[jimfinn]

Well, I like Enigma's last post - seems better than what I've seen from him before. PZ's push for a PL on RBT makes me VHWS, but there's already a good sized wagon on him so I'm not going to push it too quickly.

[charter]

I think Jimfinn and PZ are buddies. Both have this vague suspicion of the other, but neither has any interest in pursuing it.

[ProkhorZakharov]

@charter, same question: What do you think about Rabies and his actions just before lynch time? Also, why didn't you want gonnano to claim?

I still think Rabies is the most town out of all of you, so I don't find his actions before lynch scummy, they look pretty good to me.

You think Rabies is town, so therefore his scummy actions aren't scummy? What if it was anyone else who'd done what he did, someone you hadn't decided was town?

I didn't want Gonnano to claim because I was sure he was scum, so him claiming could only save him from a lynch. Personally, I don't think anyone should claim day one. More times than not, obvscum claim a power role and then town scrambles to lynch someone for crap reasons, and unsurprisingly, they turn out town. Then scum kill off one of the supporters of the obvscum lynch, and they just wiggle their way out. Even worse is when scum claim a "confirmable" role and everyone believes them even when they fail to "confirm" themselves. Extremely rarely does a town cop or something claim day one, then actually live to get a useful result. It never happens, so why even ask for a claim?

Did some meta:ing and I guess that's just your playstyle. Suffice it to say I don't agree. You played a heavy part in driving the gonnano wagon yesterday, and look where it brought us.

I think Jimfinn and PZ are buddies. Both have this vague suspicion of the other, but neither has any interest in pursuing it.

Like you thought me and gonnano were buddies? My suspicions about jimfinn is the same, but other people interest me as well. I don't feel the need to vote anyone just yet. I'm pursuing it just fine for now by asking questions and trying to solidify my read.[/quote]

PZ's push for a PL on RBT makes me VHWS

I have no idea what you just said. VHWS?

Push for a policy lynch?

I haven't suggested anything of the sort! Stop ignoring my questions. It's shit like this.

Any idiot can scum hunt, or pretend to. People who don't scum hunt aren't necessary scum, many of them are just plain lazy.
Scum hunting is a extension of player's meta, not alignment.
Some like to sit back and comment on single points, some tunnel like there is no tomorrow. Some just lurk and say stupid things and hence we can't get an accurate read but "zomg scummy lurker".

What is harder to fake is not making inconsistiecies when one (or their team) is under pressure, or accidentally slip by revealing they know a little bit too much.

Associating scum hunting to being town is bad.
Seeing what said person is trying to achieve with scum hunting has much more merits.

For the purposes of this post and others, "scum hunting" means "taking actions that directly or indirectly leads to the finding of scum or to the lynching of scum". I think that's a valid definition.
First of all, everyone (in town) need to hunt scum in

some

way in order to win. Right? Find scum, convince people they are scum, lynch scum, win. Basic theorycrafting. Lurking and saying stupid things makes it harder for the rest of us to do this, so if you're interested in winning, you shouldn't do it. Of course, people are lazy and stupid and everything in between, to the point where they rather keep with their "bad" playstyle than play "well", which is where meta comes in and why we let people getting away with certain things (to a point). For example, I don't usually mind too much if people lurk a bit day one; many dislike day one regardless of alignment and policy lynching them wouldn't make sense. But still, at some point everyone needs to do something to win, be it make cases or just voting for scum. It can sometimes be hard to say if a person is disinterested in winning as town or interested in winning as scum, because their methods can be very similiar.

So: When someone doesn't scum hunt, they're either as you say plain lazy, or they think that it favors their win condition to not do so. Agreed? In order to win, you must find and lynch scum, and at the same time find and not lynch town. Scum hunting helps with both: It's possible to win a game you lurk through, but it's no thanks to you. By scum hunting, and being active, and posting good content, you make it less likely for your fellow townies to lynch you.

This is why I think it's in every townie's interest to make some effort to hunt scum: To not do so, to the extent that you're mislynched, is not only a bad way to win, but also disrespectful to your fellow players.

Ok, time to back up a little. This all started with this, as far as I can tell:

Nobody's lynching anybody just yet, so if you're town why don't you start being useful and hunt some scum? If you're trying, you're not trying very hard.

Associating scum hunting with being pro-town is a very dangerous path to take. Nor should that be used buy him a free pass from his current predicament.

This was of course directed to moose. Moose was of course being his normal ignoramus self. From my viewpoint at the time, he was either clumsy (very clumsy) scum or very lazy town. Voting him was for pressure and to see how he reacted. My call for him to "hunt some scum" was to try to get him to be more active and post more analyzable data and give him a chance to either post good content (making him less likely scum) or bad content (making him more likely scum). In the end he ignored me, as he does, and keeps posting garbage.

[Enigma]

@charter, same question: What do you think about Rabies and his actions just before lynch time? Also, why didn't you want gonnano to claim?

I still think Rabies is the most town out of all of you, so I don't find his actions before lynch scummy, they look pretty good to me.

Let's reserve our judgment until Rabies actually trots over here and does a post today. Same deal for Mizzy.

@PZ:
This conversation surely belongs in MD and not here, but then again I'm not a fan of MD. I'm not going to get into a massive debate over this issue here however.

While I agree with most of what you are defining, my argument stands. Scum can fake scum hunting, and with due diligence on their behalf, not even a fool would notice it. The fact that you keep on skirting this point, I've got to say does not impress me.

I think the most crucial point I'm trying to convey is that the act of scumhunting (or the lack thereof) should not be used to convince one's self of a person's alignment. The town win-con is at the

capable hands

mercy of half a dozen or more other morons, and everyone eagerly takes up the responsibility with different amounts of eagerness.
The rewards for "fake" (and well executed) scumhunting easily outweighs the rewards of genuine scum hunting.

[jimfinn]

@PZ: You really don't have much room to talk about lurking. This is hardly a "troll" wagon either; it's some pretty blatant rolefishing.

Well hey now you're clearly the biggest lurker.

I mean he's a troll, not that your wagon is trolly. He's been doing scummy shit all game long, the rolefishing is just another straw on the haystack that broke the camel's back at some point last week. I don't know, maybe we should just lynch him and get it overwith since we weren't blessed with a vig kill on him. Need to think about that.

This isn't pushing for a PL on RBT? Really now? And VHWS = View Him With Suspicion

[ProkhorZakharov]

@PZ: You really don't have much room to talk about lurking. This is hardly a "troll" wagon either; it's some pretty blatant rolefishing.

Well hey now you're clearly the biggest lurker.

I mean he's a troll, not that your wagon is trolly. He's been doing scummy shit all game long, the rolefishing is just another straw on the haystack that broke the camel's back at some point last week. I don't know, maybe we should just lynch him and get it overwith since we weren't blessed with a vig kill on him. Need to think about that.

This isn't pushing for a PL on RBT? Really now? And VHWS = View Him With Suspicion

Oh, for FSM's sake. I'm entertaining the idea of lynching MOOSE, not RBT. Moose is the "he" in all of that. Furthermore, I'm not pushing for a PL, I said I needed to think about it, and I think you should too. I don't think we should completely ignore him.

@Enigma: Fair point about the conversation not really belonging here, but if you see it as a point against me I want to defend myself. This will be my last word on the subject, I think: You think scum can fake scum hunting, I think they (or at least many enough to make it a point) can't fake it completely. Either way, I think more content = more chances to slip up = good for town. Yes there will be skilled scum, but I don't think I ever said that the amount of scum hunting a person does is the only thing you should take into consideration. Think of it like this: No scum hunting = bad; moderate amount of scum hunting = what is or should be expected = null tell; lots of scum hunting (or content in general) = more chances for scum to slip up. The more you have to go on from earlier days, the more you can find out on later days after a few flips.

Again, it's still just one part of the puzzle.

FWIW this whole exchange makes me think you lean town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Sunday October 14, 2012

Today is not going to be a good day. I know that the chance of me losing yet another friend is high up the sky, and it's a truth I'm having a hard time accepting.

But I can only hope the negative effects of today ends with that, a loss of a dear friend. Impure forces are about everywhere in this world, but never has it been more prevalent in this tiring city. And yesterday, it showed what it was capable of and it was a rude awakening to me, and soon, the city, that crime cannot always be solved without blood.

Vote Count #3, Day 2

Engima (0):
LynchMePls (0):
moose200x (1): Riceballtail
Riceballtail (0):
jimfinn (1): LynchMePls
Rabies (0):
Mizzy (0):
charter (0):
MacavityLock (0):
ProkhorZaharov (3): Engima, MacavityLock, charter

No Lynch (0):

Not Voting (5): moose200x, jimfinn, Rabies, Mizzy, ProkhorZaharov

It is Day 2! With ten players alive, it takes six votes on a player to lynch!
The deadline is on Thursday December 9th, 2010 at 8:30 PM CST.

At this point, I would prod Mizzy due to breaking prod rules, however, she did announce V/LA until tomorrow in another game she's playing, so I will be nice this one time and not prod her (Next time, I will prod her regardless of whenever or not she announced V/La in other games/other threads). Rabies, on the other hand, does not get such leniency, since he has no form of V/La that he announced. As a result, he will be prodded.

[LimMePls]

Back from Turkey Day. Hope everyone else enjoyed it as much as I did. This game has gotten the short end of my short time for mafia games, so I'll be doing a catchup post ASAP (like now-ish).

[LimMePls]

You're going to vote before anyone chimes in with a guilty or other interesting night actions?

Yup. I've noticed that you still haven't voted today. What's the hold up?

No, this is a terrible idea. This is WIFOM that those roles even exist in the game. This only reeks of rolefishing and scum. I am going to again return my vote here.

VOTE:Moose

I also approve of Enigma's case on PZ.

RBT is a good wagon too.

In retrospect I should've gone with my original gut feeling and just stayed the hell away from the gonnano thing instead of being my honest wishywashy self, but hindsight is what it is. Bad play on my part, and if you think it's a scum tell there's probably not much I can do to change your mind.

This line of thought looks like it comes from scum. "I should have stayed away..." is overly concerned with how others view you. Trying to lower your own culpability in the mislynch is scumtastic.

Same as yesterday. Active lurking, did a halfhearted case on LMP, nothing much else to report. Keeps up the active lurking today by making of post with nothing but theory. Scummier than most.

I like PZ/jimfinn scum team.

@Everyone who agrees with this: Since Enigma isn't the first to bring this up and no one seems to bother explaining themselves further, I'll just go right ahead and admit that I don't understand what it is that you are accusing me of. Not reacting to all answers? As you say, I ask a lot of questions. A scatter shot approach, if you would, ask away and see if any answers looks off. Often this is about motives and reasons, and to look at reactions. What exactly do you expect of me? If I don't arrive at any conclusions [I assume you mean "post any conclusions"], it's because I - surprise - don't arrive at any conclusions. Am I supposed to clutter up the thread with quote blocks and "oh I see" or "fair enough"? Is it because I sometimes don't acknowledge/remind people of missed questions? Sometimes I'm satisfied with what people post elsewhere, sometimes I take their silence as their response (depends a bit on what kind of question it was, not all of them are stellar after all and sometimes I stop being interested in the answer). Is this about not all of my questions being super serious? I'm not always super serious.

Asking a lot of questions with a "scatter-shot" approach and not following up on the answers seems like the ideal way scum want to "scum hunt". Lots of "questions" so they can go "see, I was hunting scum, look at all my questions" without any actual intent to find the scum. It's definitely scummy. Your attempt to defend the behavior is fail.

Yeah, I forgot how badly people react to "honestly I don't know it can go either way" around here. Serves me right for answering questions honestly and quickly instead of taking my time to perfect an answer I guess? It sucks if people can use it as an excuse to lynch me, but it is what it is.

Yes it is what it is, a chance for you to sit the sidelines and only make a decision when you have to. Which is scummy.

1) You are doing no scumhunting, and literally asking others to do it for you.
2) You are attempting to out a cop, assuming they investigated someone last night.
3) Good cops breadcrumb their results, not outright claim them. Losing a cop for 1:1 is why SCUM claim cop, not why cops out themselves.

Cops leave their votes on guilty results quite frequently, and only change for deadline lynches.

RBT's points against moose all seem safe to me. This post seems designed to appear participating by attacking an easy target (the VI).

Any idiot can scum hunt, or pretend to.

QFT. It's intent we need to be looking at, not actions.

Charter's 399 is win.

Oh, for FSM's sake. I'm entertaining the idea of lynching MOOSE, not RBT. Moose is the "he" in all of that. Furthermore, I'm not pushing for a PL, I said I needed to think about it, and I think you should too. I don't think we should completely ignore him.

@Enigma: Fair point about the conversation not really belonging here, but if you see it as a point against me I want to defend myself. This will be my last word on the subject, I think: You think scum can fake scum hunting, I think they (or at least many enough to make it a point) can't fake it completely. Either way, I think more content = more chances to slip up = good for town. Yes there will be skilled scum, but I don't think I ever said that the amount of scum hunting a person does is the only thing you should take into consideration. Think of it like this: No scum hunting = bad; moderate amount of scum hunting = what is or should be expected = null tell; lots of scum hunting (or content in general) = more chances for scum to slip up. The more you have to go on from earlier days, the more you can find out on later days after a few flips.

Again, it's still just one part of the puzzle.

FWIW this whole exchange makes me think you lean town.

1) You're not pushing for a PL on moose, but you "need to think about it"? This is you trying to backtrack out of your obviously bad position of PL on moose. I'm not falling for it.
2) The theory discussion is fruitless and should end in favor of discussing issues relevant to the game.
3) The buddy attempt is noted.

Time for a scum-town meter.

TOWN
charter
MacavityLock
Enigma
Rabies
moose
Mizzy
Riceballtail
jimfinn
ProkhorZakharov
SCUM

On that note:

Unvote
Vote: ProkhorZakharov

L-2.

[Riceballtail]

1) You are doing no scumhunting, and literally asking others to do it for you.
2) You are attempting to out a cop, assuming they investigated someone last night.
3) Good cops breadcrumb their results, not outright claim them. Losing a cop for 1:1 is why SCUM claim cop, not why cops out themselves.

Cops leave their votes on guilty results quite frequently, and only change for deadline lynches.

RBT's points against moose all seem safe to me. This post seems designed to appear participating by attacking an easy target (the VI).

After you've lost to the VI for "can't be scum, just stupid townie" enough, you don't care and lynch them anyway.

[charter]

You think Rabies is town, so therefore his scummy actions aren't scummy? What if it was anyone else who'd done what he did, someone you hadn't decided was town?

What about his actions do you find scummy? I thought they were town, irrespective of my read on him.

Like you thought me and gonnano were buddies?

Saying I was wrong before as your defense is terrible, unlikely to convince anyone else you're town, and certainly won't convince me you're town.

I'm still waiting for Jimfinn to start posting. I want to vote him, but at the same time I want to vote PZ...

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

It seems as little was being accomplished today, but you checked your phone and you were relieved to find that it was only 3:45 PM. But you desired more action and more information.

However, you had no way to control the discussion from such an external angle. You were now officially impatience with the world, desiring that everything finish up immediately so that the most important part of the day would start up, the brutal murder scene.

Vote Count #4, Day 2

Engima (0):
LynchMePls (0):
moose200x (1): Riceballtail
Riceballtail (0):
jimfinn (0):
Rabies (0):
Mizzy (0):
charter (0):
MacavityLock (0):
ProkhorZaharov (4): Engima, MacavityLock, charter, LynchMePls

No Lynch (0):

Not Voting (5): moose200x, jimfinn, Rabies, Mizzy, ProkhorZaharov

It is Day 2! With ten players alive, it takes six votes on a player to lynch!
The deadline is on Thursday December 9th, 2010 at 8:30 PM CST.

[jimfinn]

@PZ: You really don't have much room to talk about lurking. This is hardly a "troll" wagon either; it's some pretty blatant rolefishing.

Well hey now you're clearly the biggest lurker.

I mean he's a troll, not that your wagon is trolly. He's been doing scummy shit all game long, the rolefishing is just another straw on the haystack that broke the camel's back at some point last week. I don't know, maybe we should just lynch him and get it overwith since we weren't blessed with a vig kill on him. Need to think about that.

This isn't pushing for a PL on RBT? Really now? And VHWS = View Him With Suspicion

Oh, for FSM's sake. I'm entertaining the idea of lynching MOOSE, not RBT. Moose is the "he" in all of that. Furthermore, I'm not pushing for a PL, I said I needed to think about it, and I think you should too. I don't think we should completely ignore him.

@Enigma: Fair point about the conversation not really belonging here, but if you see it as a point against me I want to defend myself. This will be my last word on the subject, I think: You think scum can fake scum hunting, I think they (or at least many enough to make it a point) can't fake it completely. Either way, I think more content = more chances to slip up = good for town. Yes there will be skilled scum, but I don't think I ever said that the amount of scum hunting a person does is the only thing you should take into consideration. Think of it like this: No scum hunting = bad; moderate amount of scum hunting = what is or should be expected = null tell; lots of scum hunting (or content in general) = more chances for scum to slip up. The more you have to go on from earlier days, the more you can find out on later days after a few flips.

Again, it's still just one part of the puzzle.

FWIW this whole exchange makes me think you lean town.

Calling Enigma town and the FWIW seem ripe to create a WIFOM if PZ is lynched and flips scum. And his vagueness about who he wants to lynch along with the backtracking from what was pretty clearly pro-PL makes me want to hear a claim.
VOTE: PZ
L-1.
DO NOT HAMMER WITHOUT A CLAIM!!!!!

[charter]

Jimfinn is bussing.

[MacavityLock]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious, ennit?

[ProkhorZakharov]

Yeah, way to put me at L-1 when two people haven't even posted in the thread yet and more than a week to go. I at least won't claim until Rabies has posted, since apparently Mizzy is V/LA. Unless Rabies dallies much more. Or many of you think I should claim regardless.

If I were scum I'd probably just hammer myself at this point let me tell ya, and deny the town the discussion. I realize there's plenty of potential wifom here, so let's not make a big deal of it. Looks like neither charter nor mac is unvoting though, so they're obviously not worried about it... Which they probably should be, tbh, I was expecting better from them.

Looks like I might have to scratch this game up as a relearning experience. Let's hope my ineptitude isn't costing us the game here, we (you?) can't really afford to keep mislynching.

In case you do manage to lynch me ahead of schedule (honestly there needs to be more lurker pressure in this game), here's some food for thought when I'm dead and you've confirmed my alignment:
- I really hope jimfinn is scum at this point, because he will surely be the big target tomorrow. "Oh, PZ wasn't scum? That makes me even more sure that jimfinn is scum, I was worried about them not being scum buddies!" Or something. Getting a bit cynical here perhaps. Obviously I don't like him putting me at L-1 here, but I don't know if he's being scummy or just playing highly suboptimally.
- I suspect SC was lynched for being famous. I did some light meta reading on him, and apparently he's frequently killed N1, or at the very least nk:ed later, the poor bastard. That's pretty much the only reason I can find for anyone who'd want to kill him, except maybe a nervous Enigma or, unlikely, nervous LMP.
- I plain don't like Rabies's posting. Late yesterday, it was mostly down to lynching jimfinn or gonnano. Rabies decided that he didn't want to lynch gonnano and that jimfinn was his preferred lynch, but instead of voting jimfinn he went after me, and tried to get a quick wagon going. When that failed, he reverted back to wanting to lynch gonnano, he never even tried to lynch jimfinn. I think there's a significant link here, especially if jimfinn really is scum.
- charter played a big part in driving the gonnano wagon yesterday, starting when the case was pretty weak (despite the 85% certainty). It'd be pretty elegant if he was actually scum all along, what with moose publically proclaiming that he'll buddy up to charter and basically follow him around. That being said, I don't have a particularly scummy read on him.

Let me think, anything else...

[ProkhorZakharov]

Why WOULD jimfinn put me at L-1, anyway? It's just... it's just bad. I just typed up some thoughts here about how bad it is, but let's not give him ideas. Suffice it to say that, from my point of view, knowing I'm town, it doesn't seem to make any sense for jimfinn-scum OR jimfinn-town to act like this.

@Jimfinn

, just what the hell are you doing on my wagon?

Oh and this:

You're not pushing for a PL on moose, but you "need to think about it"? This is you trying to backtrack out of your obviously bad position of PL on moose. I'm not falling for it.

It's not backtracking if I say it in the first post, dimwit. Besides, what do you suggest, ignoring him? Until LYLO? Until 3 person LYLO? He's a random and distracting element at best, he might as well be an automatic coin tosser as far as I'm concerned. I've never been much for policy lynching, but I've never played with moose, either. I brought up the subject for discussion yes, and if you consider that to be enough to qualify to pushing for his lynch then so be it. I wouldn't blame anyone who actually DID push for his PL at this point, even if I do make up my mind firmly against it. Maybe it belongs in the after game discussion though, maybe people should be expected to make up their minds in advance and not adapt to new situations. I don't think so, but you're certainly allowed to.

[LimMePls]

Push for a policy lynch? I haven't suggested anything of the sort!

I've never been much for policy lynching, but I've never played with moose, either. I brought up the subject for discussion yes, and if you consider that to be enough to qualify to pushing for his lynch then so be it.

So were you not suggesting a PL, or were you? Cause these two statements are mutually exclusive. Nice slip, dimwit.

[ProkhorZakharov]

Push for a policy lynch? I haven't suggested anything of the sort!

I've never been much for policy lynching, but I've never played with moose, either. I brought up the subject for discussion yes, and

if you consider that to be enough to qualify to pushing for his lynch then so be it.

So were you not suggesting a PL, or were you? Cause these two statements are mutually exclusive. Nice slip, dimwit.

Note my bolding. In my mind, talking about something does not equal pushing for something. I wasn't advocating policy lynching moose, I wasn't trying to convince people to do it, thus wasn't pushing for it. Do you consider "to push for something" to be the same thing as "to talk about something"?

Example: Family meeting.
Loving husband says: "Honey, maybe we should buy a third car. We need to think about that."
Loving wife says: "Oh honey, that would be so nice. Can we really afford it though? We're on a tight budget."
Loving son says: "Oh daddy, can we get a Ferrari daddy?"
Loving daughter says: "I hate all of you."
Loving husband says: "Well, that was a nice discussion. Let's not buy a car just yet, but maybe when our budget looks better."

Now granted, the loving husband has a motive in even bringing it up. Does he want to have that new Ferrari? Well, he probably does, but he realizes it would break his budget. After consulting with his loving family, he makes up his mind and decides not to do it. Does he push for it though? Does he actually try to convince anyone to buy the new car? Why no. No he doesn't. He expects his family to be able to think for themselves.

Example two: Political rally.
Fanatic leader says: "Mein fellow comrades! For too long have the cats plagued our society! It is time to murder all of them! Let's go out and murder all cats, right now!"
Bloodthirsty mob says: "Oh no, mein führer, we like cats, cats are fluffy and cute and nice!"
Fanatic leader says: "Oh whatever, you guys suck."

See how the fanatic leader tries to rally the mob to murder the cats? He's pushing for feline genocide by voicing strong opinion for that option. That's a bad fanatic leader! BAD LEADER!

[charter]

To be honest, I"d rather lynch Jimfinn over you, PZ. But, it's pretty big points against you that Jimfinn set himself up to unvote once you claim and wants to make sure you claim.

I don't think I can see Jimfinn as town regardless of your flip. At this point, it looks like you're a better scumrole, but Jimfinn is more certainly scum, so I'm going to go back to him until we at least hear from Mizzy.

unvote, vote Jimfinn

[jimfinn]

V/LA until Friday or Saturday. This is sitewide and not related to any in-game pressure - I am on a retreat. Note that I signed up several weeks ago noting this VLA in the Mini Normal Queue. I have been attacked for a suspiciously timed VLA before, so I am making this clear!

[charter]

PZ, if you want to keep my vote off of you, instead of telling everyone who is voting you they are wrong, you should tell us who you think is scum and why.

[moose200x]

Wait I wanna hammer, can I hammer now?!

[LimMePls]

418 is pedantic weasel wording that tries to backtrack what you were doing. Trying to cloud the issue by arguing "discussing something" versus "pushing for something" is hilarious. Do you often play devil's advocate in mafia? Because when I see people bring a topic up for discussion, I tend to assume its because they want to push that topic one way or the other.

So you're either filling the thread with useless chatter and non-committal stances in an attempt to look town or you're backtracking from your policy lynch talk once you realized it wasn't going anywhere. Either option makes you scum.

[Enigma]

How about we actually focus on a single case on someone PZ instead of attempting to do some fake scum hunting and as a result calling the majority of the players here scum.

And let's accompany that with a vote shall we?