Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[SensFan]

If there's enough demand by people other than Nathaneal for me to keep pointing out why he's as wrong as is possible to be, I'll do it. Otherwise, I'll let the game move on, since I'm pretty sure most people can see that his supposed stance on Jack is completely asinine.

[Feysal]

Yes, it was something in your last post. if you can find it and explain it, I could accept that and put you back to townish.
if I have to point it out for you, I'll leave you at null.

Gave my post another look, and I could only find two things you might've meant. If it is neither of these, I'm stumped.

Firstly, I had just suggested that we may have a vigilante, and then suggested that a theoretical role blocker should block him again. Oops. I was thinking about two scenarios only, one with a town vigilante who only killed once, and one with a serial killer and role blocker. There could be a vigilante and a role blocker too, though I doubt it... all the power roles we have confirmation of are somehow limited, a town role blocker would be overpowered, and so we probably don't have one. Though the scum might. Double oops. I guess I just did not think this one through.

Secondly, I asked Magua to explain his reads of me, Scotmany and SpyreX, while not explaining my own town reads of the two. Basically, if Scotmany had been scum, then I believe he would not have allowed reckoner to be executed. Both dramonic (in #651) and reckoner (#733 and #746) were talking about the execution being vetoed like they wanted it to happen. Scotmany was online, he could've vetoed, but did not. If he was scum with dramonic and reckoner, I believe they could've played that better, and gotten through the day without having to bus. I do need to ISO read Scotmany though, perhaps then I'll get what is so scummy about him.

For SpyreX, I don't have anything that definitive. I had him as null until today, and while I'm leaning town after reading his posts today, it is not a strong read.

As for my read on Magua himself, there is the meta I had on Katsuki. In addition, both reckoner and dramonic said they were comfortable with Katsuki being lynched, and continued accusing each other. If Katsuki was scum with dramonic and reckoner, I doubt they would bus each other that eagerly after leaving Katsuki to die. This is enough to make me believe Magua is more likely town, despite his strange altercation with SpyreX. I would still like to hear his cases on us though.

[SensFan]

"There's a scumtell in your last post. If you can find it, I won't count it against you."
"Ignore the super scummy thing he did; you should just look at the slightly townie things he did to try and explain the super scummy thing."

These goldmines and more, brought to you by Nathaneal.

[Primate]

Sorry, I only just got back from the new year and it's 7am and I'm drunk. I'll post properly in a few hours when I get up again.

[Primate]

Right. Dramonic coming up scum was a surprise. I speculated whether something like that was happening because it seemed odd that Dramonic went after Reck so fervently and followed it through to lynch on dubious reasons, but I never really took that thought too seriously.

Self-metas suck. It wouldn't really surprise me if both reck and dram are scum.

Notable.

It's better to drag it out. And primate there were good people on rib's list. What did you mean by "this is glorious" earlier?

That's why I said potentially compromise. I have no idea who he ideally wanted to pick. It was just the fact that if you had come out pre-night he would have had the entire pool available to him. The this is glorious thing was because I don't get why you would have, as town, picked consuls hostile to you for extra wifom. At that point you were still claiming consulmaker and it seemed an incredibly surreal thing to say, unless I missing something.

Just noticed Inhim, which has kind of a silver lining as he would have probably been on my list for today. Spyrex probably would have been on it too. Good Times.

If he and dramonic had been scum together, I'd think they'd have found some way to not bus their partner so early in game. I think I need to check the timeline, but for now I believe scotmany12 to be town.

I'd need convincing about this. Seems to me that the dram/reck thing was enough of a thing that the scum would have had a plan for bussing that other scum would be aware of. Also, I don't think scot even came out that strongly against Reck, unless I'm missing something.

This is spot on with my thought process. I am junked at dram and reck being scum together and I'm having a REAL hard time processing Jack being scum with them which makes what should have been easy money a bit harder. I'm still leaning fat hard that way but.

Yeah. It's a really ballsy play from Dram if jacks in their scumgroup. Makes me quite a bit less comfortable with Jackscum.

I won't be voting ribwich for tribune because he is consulmaker. I have no objection to his play yesterday, but think that it is not productive to have a confirmed townie in that role. If a non-consulmaker townie had made the same play yesterday, now we would have a role that is very strongly town, instead we don't, we have gained no information, and I don't think that's worth the security of having a conf town in that position at this point in the game.

if anyone wants to claim the kill, now would be a good time to do so.

Boooo.

Primate (how did he get to be a consul?)

*shrug*

Magua being scum would make the Chamber kill a bit odd considering he was swearing blind that katsuki was town, but that's semi-wifom.

P a r a m a . I s . S c u m !

Think it's unlikely.

Seriously, I don't get it. Why the hell are you people not willing to see him hang? His lie dominated D1, added absolutely nothing to anything until he's confirmed Town, and forced the Consulmaker to pick D2 Consuls from a randomized list of half the people. What in the name of Bahamut has he done to make people think he shouldn't be lynched?

Drams behaviour doesn't scan with that possibility. I'm still on the fence but to me that's enough to make it a pretty convincing grey area.

In my first ever game as scum, Primate was town and fakeclaimed cop to open, so I'm not surprised he's soft on this, but I would like to know what possible protown benefit there is here?

There wasn't any and Jack fucked it up because it was obvious from ribwiches first post that jack was lying. The protown benefit is that it obfuscates who the real consulmaker is, the rebuttal is that it obviously doesn't obfuscate it as much as not claiming in the first place. My thought was that Jack had done it as a vanilla townie and was relying on the consulmaker not to respond. I agree it was a stupid idea, but to me it made more sense as a stupid town idea.

That works equally well in reverse. It's such stupid town play that it makes more sense to be a scum gambit, relying on people making this exact argument. Or the GF gambit.

I think the difference here is that my feeling is that early game town gambits like this are more common than early game scum gambits. I don't have the figures to back that up, so I may be wrong, I just feel behaviour like this is more typically town.

It worked out ok if you discount the fact that the premature townie claim it elicited from undo allowed us to identify you for sure as the doc by the third night.

That's not a huge downside. It's a shame, and it was a bad play on both my part and undo's, but anyway.

Fonz, about the bad at mafia thing, that's mostly a joke for my own benefit. I'd quit for a while before I went to kiwiesta and joined a couple of games when I got back. I did awfully in them and haven't played at all since then, with the exception of scumchat, where me and shanba grump at each other for a long while about how we've just become bad at the game since we used to play a lot more.

I'll have a list of people I will kill, veto, etc later. I suspect most of thoughts I have are outdated ones based on things that happened D1 with sprinklings of stuff that happened D2, so I really need to refresh my mind.

[Porochaz]

Posting cause I was prodded, I see Nathaniel is still alive, therefore I have nothing more to say.

[Nathanael]

I hope this people don't forget to answer my questions:

@Magua:

Who do you think is more likely scum, Porochaz or Leon Belmont?

@Lowell:

Who do you think is more likely town, Feysal or Primate?

TF, I'm waiting for your answers too as soon as you finish catching up. Also TF, do you think Sens is scum?

Feysal

@Feysal. It wasn't one of the ones you showed. I just didn't like the overall tone of the post. I liked your response, though, but I prefer to keep you at null right now.
But, here is another question: assume you had pointed out those things in someone else's post, would you have found it scummy? if yes, how scummy? if no, why did you think I could have found them scummy?

Primate

Self-metas suck. It wouldn't really surprise me if both reck and dram are scum.

Notable.

this + other things => scot get's back to null.

Yeah. It's a really ballsy play from Dram if jacks in their scumgroup. Makes me quite a bit less comfortable with Jackscum.

this seems like you are still a little comfortable with Jackscum, yet later in that post you say that such a gambit is more likely to come from town than from scum. And you think it would be "really ballsy" if dram+reck were scum with Jack. considering this:

Drams behaviour doesn't scan with that possibility. I'm still on the fence but to me that's enough to make it a pretty convincing grey area.

mind clarifying your stance?

I won't be voting ribwich for tribune because he is consulmaker. I have no objection to his play yesterday, but think that it is not productive to have a confirmed townie in that role. If a non-consulmaker townie had made the same play yesterday, now we would have a role that is very strongly town, instead we don't, we have gained no information, and I don't think that's worth the security of having a conf town in that position at this point in the game.

do you think a non-confirmed player (even if town) would ever dare to make such a move? would you have made such a move? do you think it was the best possible move in ribwich's position?

still, townpoints for primate.
PS: primate, would you mind formatting your walls a little better in the code? like putting quotes in a new line. It makes it much easier to divide it into blocks.

SensFan

"There's a scumtell in your last post. If you can find it, I won't count it against you."
"Ignore the super scummy thing he did; you should just look at the slightly townie things he did to try and explain the super scummy thing."

These goldmines and more, brought to you by Nathaneal.

do you think I'm scum? yes or no?

Porochaz

Posting cause I was prodded, I see Nathaniel is still alive, therefore I have nothing more to say.

scumpoints for you:
1) enough has gone on, enough has been said. there is a lot to comment on and still you prefer to active lurk.
2) let's look at your attack on me in the past:

...I totally agree with Parama and was planning (on Monday when I have a day free) to make a semi decent post about Nathaniel. The whole play the latter half of yesterday was not in towns best interests and today its just been weird. He needs to go now!

vote Nathaniel

"weird"=scummy? if yes, why not say so? scum tend to define scummy things as "weird", "odd", "interesting" or similar because they feel it's lessdefinite than "scummy" and doesn't force them to commit.
also, could you please restate Parama's case in your own words and tell me why you agree?

However the main point of my double post is that I agree with scot about nathaneal and a lot of his latest posts seem like OMGUS. (He called it) But I cant seem to remember a post of his Ive liked. The thing with dismissing posts as OMGUS, is that it has to be OMGUS if there is a reason, or in this case, a lack of one. Which you haven't, you weakly defended yourself against Parama's attack and 732 is one of those horrible "your scum cause I said so, no content" posts and as definitely totally awful these posts are, yours scrapes the bottom of the barrel particularly for that definitely totally awful emphasis.

Also ribwich buddying isnt going to get you many places.

so the whole "decent post" you had promised to give is basically a scream of OMGUS. I'm quite tempted to give you scumpoints only for the use of OMGUS, but I'll refrain from it (TF knows why).
could you also please restate scot's point about me (Nathanael btw.) and explain why you agree?
also, I find the "He called it" weird (=scummy [/irony]). Tell me, wouldn't you have made the EXACT same post even if I hadn't "called it"? if yes, why add that then? do you think it is incriminating? if yes, why?

and now, could you please tell me where exactly your case is?

[Primate]

PS: primate, would you mind formatting your walls a little better in the code? like putting quotes in a new line. It makes it much easier to divide it into blocks.

Sure. that's a carryover from the old forums, where, there was a difference and iirc, my way took up less vertical space in the final post. Doesn't make a difference here though apparently so will stop, apologies.

mind clarifying your stance?

I think the fact Jack did what he did was town, as was his interaction with Dram and D2. I think personally his behaviour has been scummy with regards to his gambit and there are a few things about it that I find dubious. Basically I think Jack would be a fantastic information lynch, and there's a fair chance of him being scum, but I am unhappy with lynching him because I wouldn't be at all surprised if he came up town. I'm also unhappy with leaving him around as well, though because I think really he's kind of tainted by WIFOM at this point becuause most of his previous behavior was commited under a pretext and that's difficult for me to try and read properly. Basically I really don't know what to do with Jack at this point.

do you think a non-confirmed player (even if town) would ever dare to make such a move? would you have made such a move? do you think it was the best possible move in ribwich's position?

I would hope a non-confirmed townie would make such a move if they were happy about doing so. I do however think that if a non-confirmed townie would do so then they would need to provide more of an explanation than Ribwich did, and they would obviously have to defend their choices and possibly take pressure, and to some people that might be a deterrent. I wouldn't have made such a move and didn't (I was the other tribune at the time). I do not believe that it was the correct play at the time, but I believe that in retrospect it was, and that's the way it needs to be judged. I wouldn't have done the same thing, but that was my mistake, and his behavior shouldn't be judged lacking because he got a better read and I misplayed.

this + other things => scot get's back to null.

What's your reasoning for reading it this way? (Not that it's a bad thing, just curious)

[The Fonz]

Just five more pages unfortunately, to end p20.

Not really feeling SpyreX's procession of 'Here's an uncharitably phrased interpretation of each of Scot's actions in order.' Scot feels pretty town to me here tbh, and I've seen him as both before.

Yeah, in 379 Jack kinda states two notscummy things Scot has done, and tries to imply he's scum. Calling out lurkers isn't scummy unless it's the only thing you do (which would make you a scummy activelurking hypocrite).

Sens' own confrontational behavior would be townish, if it didn't remind me so much of him in that newbie game where he was scum.

This is about pulling a dick move like trying to get an execution started at the soonest possible time. It was the weekend after Thanksgiving, so there was a good chance a lot of people weren't going to get a chance to see it (notice how activity has been pretty low from the majority lately?)

This is a good point, hard to pick up the timings of things from just reading through the thread, but putting the order in at a time when people are specifically unlikely to be online is sneaky.

Games in which active posters are replaced? The Lowells of the world are kings!!!!

I will catch up in a bit.

My policy lynch spidey sense is tingling. Well, it would be were it not going off overtime already re: Jack.

Likely on the idiot side of that line, since he also hasn't read enough of the thread to realize that I was not trying to have chesskid executed the first time.

This is dishonest. - Sens Kinda like putting someone to L-1 for 'pressure.' You clearly did intend to lynch him at some point while the first execution was pending, what with the veto and all.

I would like Parama to elaborate on the Nate/lining up lynches thing, since I don't see it.

Um, so I forgot about this game.

Can anyone sum up what happened during the voting stage? I remember jack and I think ribwich claiming consulmaker?

In short, does not want to read through chesskid stuff.

SO MUCH NOOBSCUMMINESS... SO LITTLE PAINFUL DEATH. *SIGH*

When you see a modpost saying that "chesskid has been replaced for spamming", one can guess what happened, considering I've played my share of games with him.

Only that post was a few pages ago by the time he said this.

<3 Ribwich, more pressure is applied less dangerously by threatening execution and looking serious, rather than putting in one that's begging the veto. The only way that doesn't get vetoed is the threat of it being missed/Nate getting hit by unexpected V/LA etc.

So Kat is keeping up with the first post, and has time to ISO the mod, but not contributing? I see lurkerscum making excuses.

That's different - just because he's not going to execute you doesn't mean he doesn't suspect you.

However, actually thinking about the game for even a second would indicate that Ribwich was obviously the truthful one. That -Sens.

Partly what Parama said. Partly I realized that you've been much more scummy than Jack.

Really? REALLY?

First of all, you're right. I wouldn't vote you if I wasn't comfortable in having you executed.

Second of all, stop talking about yourself like you're confirmed Consulmaker. There's a higher chance you're Scum than anyone else other than Jack. And if we're going to gamble, it's going to be on you. If we mess up and hit JackTown, we lost a very good consulmaker. If we mess up and hit ribTown, we gain a competent consulmaker.

SCUM. OH SO SCUM.

What about Jack's play in this actual game makes you think he's a competent consulmaker? Also, why are you ignoring the 'counterclaimant is usually the truthteller' thing? And what actually is bad about Rib's play, apart from that he doesn't like yours? At least chesskid was annoying, there's absolutely no good reason for the Ribhate. The only town rationale I can remotely think of here is that Sens is completely letting his emotions and omgus instinct overtake him. But he's better than that.

You do realize that as soon as you (even if you're telling the truth) get executed, another confirmed Town pops up, right?

Which totally makes executing someone who can confirm his town-ness the right move. Yah. It would still be a mislynch.

Abrasive != scummy.

Tell that to Sens re: Chesskid. I've seen abrasive Sensscum, he's a combative player. I'm not aware of a town Sens ever completely taking leave of his senses as he'd have to be doing here.

Except that by explicitly stating this, you are now actively trying to look more pro-town.

This gives me...slight... pause given Reck's confscumness.

472: LOL go spyreX. Not sure it's alignment relevant, but it's spot-on quality of game wise.

Hmmm. Sens' execution order on Kat. On the one hand, it kinda looks like pandering to inHim and the largeish Katwagon, having not really expressed much, if any, suspicion that way beforehand. On the other hand, it

really

doesn't look like a bus, which considering Kat and Sens are my nos 2 and 3 (behind Jack, who needs to be policy lynched ASAP) it means I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on one or other.

Woo, Lowell with an actual opinion.

I frankly don't give a damn about their reasons. Reasons are nothing but a way to hedge their bets. I just want a letter.

This is awesome from a gametheory perspective. Kinda makes me wish you were town.

[Parama]

@Fonz's last post: Taking that quote out of context, I don't even remember what I was saying there. Care to remind me?

[The Fonz]

You were talking about Sens, and stating that Sens could suspect Ribwich and not actually want to execute him. However, that would make the pseudovote even more of a waste of space than it was already.

Sens made clear that he did like the idea of dead Ribwich. Mmmm.... BBQ rib. The fact that there wasn't anything remotely approaching a logical reason to actually want Ribwich is dead means I have a big problem with Sens' play in that passage.

[scotmany12]

Posting cause I was prodded, I see Nathaniel is still alive, therefore I have nothing more to say.

Who do you think is scum besides nathaniel?

[The Fonz]

Right, I haven't got time to do several pages more reading, but I have a short window, so I might as well answer Nate's questions.

why do I get town points for a "decent analysis" which turned out to be completely wrong, while SensFan made a post that "makes sense" and turned out to be the right play at the time (even if he is wrong right now) and doesn't get a +?

Because Sens talks a lot about theory in general, and the point he made was pretty much obvious. Also, I've just seen you pull fake-VI as scum. The fact that you're not doing that inclines me favorably towards you.

excuse my ignorance, what do you mean by GF gambit?

The GF gambit, or Kaleidoscope gambit, is where a player holding an investigation-immune scum role (GF or SK) does something obviously massively antitown, scummy or gambitty on day one in order to draw the investigation which will 'confirm' him. I've seen it a couple of times.

chesskid so far has only been dropping bad player tells, but this of course means he hasn't actually done anything protown either.

do you have something specific you would attribute more to a bad player than to scum?

It's more that I don't see anything scummy at all. He appeared to be making an effort to spark discussion, poking at people, and so on, and that's generally townish. His posts however had the feel of the poor player.

What I liked about post 98: simply that 'Why vote for an obviously poor player/habitual lurker' is a good scumhunting question.

110 is superficially appealing, but reduces the amount of info available to town. The tribunal vote is the one thing the democracy directly chooses. Small - rabies/feysal.

if he is scum, do you think he proposed something you called anti-town on purpose?
doesn't this - (minus) contradict your previous statement about alignment-neutral "bad plans"?

Yes, it does really, which is why I made clear 'Small minus.' This just felt, on a gut level, as if it

might

be a sneaky attempt to push

LOL Mert (aka me) 154 is just bizarre.

would you have found this post scummy if it weren't your predecessor?

Weird question, because it's kinda hard to separate my reaction to it from the fact that I never saw it from a perspective other than knowing it's from a town player. Clearly, I don't agree with it. I guess I would probably have found it odd/a little scummy on first glance, and maybe even tried to put a little pressure there, but I think I'd fairly quickly come to the conclusion that rampant paranoia when faced with weird gambitting is, if anything, townish.

A question, who do you think is more likely scum: Parama or scotmany?

I've got both as pretty town, and I'm not sure splitting hairs between them at this juncture is helpful. Though bear in mind I've not gotten to a point in my read where Parama is really into the swing of things yet.

[The Fonz]

Sorry, I left my sentence unfinished re: Rabies. Just felt it

might

be an attempt to push something scummy under a cover of reasonable-sounding argument whilst hiding the scummy aspect.

[Magua]

@Magua:

Who do you think is more likely scum, Porochaz or Leon Belmont?

Porochaz, almost solely for this post:

I kinda want to punch people in the face for having the audacity to vote for the self voting piece of idioticness that is ribwich. Honestly, lets choose someone who failed to be a good consul yesterday, by vetoing Jack. Yes I disagreed with it, I fully think Jack is town but its not really the point here. If the majority of the town think he is scum thedn who the fuck does he think he is to bveto it. I am angry that he is being considered again. My middle finger is up at all of you bas5tards/.

"Ribwich was bad because he vetoed the execution of someone I thought was town."

I am meta-disinclined to believe that Leon is scum due to his complete lack of activity in the game.

Anyway, since I believe you are probably wrong about all three of your scum reads, I have to wonder where they are coming from. Are you misinformed town, or are you scum, trying to push lynches on town? The difference is in the reasons. If you can point to valid concerns you may have with any of us, I can be satisfied with you being misinformed town. If your cases on us are bogus or nonexistent, scum starts to look more likely.

I don't have a case. I haven't put the energy into a case. I read D2 in one sitting and my gut read when I was done was that you were the most likely to be scum. I put it out there for two reasons: one, to get it out there, register my opinion, and two, to see what the reaction was.

I mean, just from the above, I get little cringes. "Misinformed town"? I can't be misinformed, as I'm not informed to begin with.

Besides, answering questions when they are asked is pro-town. Arguing semantics of whether it was a question in the first place is not, and countering the question with your own questions is not. You are stalling. You've lost the opportunity to earn town points with a timely answer, but I still want to know what led you to be suspicious of the three of us. Your response in #835 is too little to be satisfactory. If you need a reason to make cases on us, I'll give you this. Writing the cases on us would enable us to respond to them, and allow us to get a better read of you.

I'm not worried about earning townpoints. My problem with Spyrex was that when I said he was scummy, he reacted with aggression and...well, nothing else. Didn't engage in a conversation. Is provoking him the wisest move? Nah. But communication is a two way street.

Question for you: So you've got a fairly long list of people you think aren't scum. Who do you think is scum?

[scotmany12]

Magua, do you have any plans at all to read day one?

[SensFan]

Fonz is making a lot of sense; gives me good vibes.

[Magua]

Magua, do you have any plans at all to read day one?

I will likely read it Monday.

[Magua]

Double post.

Fonz is making a lot of sense; gives me good vibes.

Fonz calls you scum. Repeatedly. You agree?

[SpyreX]

Hahahaha.

I asked you to explain your reads.

Not only have you repeatedly been unable to do that you've played the semantic coy card over and over.

Dead in the face.

@Fonz: I need more with what you're talking about with scot because AT THAT POINT no way. Even now, probably no way. But then? Hoss no.

[The Fonz]

To the end of Day One

More 'I haven't read, and yet I know broadly what's going on' stuff from Kat, plus a premature claim. Oh goody.

And I'll make sure it's vetoed.

This was regarding Reck's threat to execute Dramonic. Was this caused by a townread on Dram, a scumread on Reck, both or something else?

It takes about 2 seconds to read that sens is the one executing me.

It's more the 'Sensfan of all people' stuff. To post that, you'd have to know that something had happened with Sens which might make people disregard his opinions. Sorry, 'opinions.'

ribwich 521 is dumb, because the Senator PM includes the word townie. Of course, rib didn't get that pm so it's marginally justifiable, but still.

I don't like, at all, how Feysal's intro post is to talk some more about an already-settled game theory issue rather than give preliminary scum/town reads based on whatever he's got. - Feysal

Yeah, I'd totally have been baying for Powerrox' blood if I were in the game at this point. If I weren't baying for Kat's. Man.

535 (Feysal): I don't get why lynching someone for lurking is automatically a mislynch or indeed a bad thing at all, but at least Feysal's taken a stand, which makes me feel better about him. + Feysal It occurs to me that scum in this situation would probably bus terrible-looking team-mate, so it's unlikely Feysal/Kat are both scum: either Feysal is sincere, or he's distancing himself from a mislynch that he thinks is probably going to go through anyway.

539: Feysal is a VI apologist. Annoying, but worth knowing.

546 by rib reminds me that, even if you are unwilling to lynch Jack for his gambit, he's a lurker. Another -Jack

Lowell pops in with another post completely unrelated to who's scum.

554: Unsure. It makes no sense for the scum to kill a consulmaker unless he's glorkesque, so you're weighing the information gained from a wagon on a conftown versus the utter waste of time spent on the wagon and the possibility that we might have to rush-execute someone at the end of a day. Incidentally, this relates to why your calling for a riblynch was scummy. The purpose of conftown is to avoid a mislynch. If the c-maker power transfers to someone who would otherwise have been lynched, great, but it might transfer to an obvtown.

559: Aaand you're still doing it.

Note Jack advocating for Powerrox over Kat.

Granted, these could be interpreted as slips, but I've seen Katsuki do worse and still be town. I'd like to think that if we had less lurking from so many players and more talking, we could find something stronger to go on. There is a kind of opportunism at work here. Since most of the players are lurking, the scum can blend in with the town lurkers. With everyone tired of the long day and the inactivity, all the scum has to do is wait for someone to slip up, most likely town, and let that someone be mislynched. Katsuki would be perfect for this.

Now this confuses the hell out of me, because your premise seems to be that when town lurk, scum will do so. I agree with this. However, the implication is both that lurking is bad, and that scum are likely to be doing it. 'Seen far worse and been town' is kinda OKish, but the logic of your argument seems to favour lurkerlynching, so why is Katsuki so bad?

Ah, I see that you come over kinda resigned after that.

Point about contradiction between Sens' stated aims and his actions is a good one and looks like real scumhunting.

Hmmm and now Jack's trying to dissuade Feysal's townread on Kat. Despite the fact that he ostensibly prefers Power. Not sure what to make of this.

Nate's save of Kat and attack on Parama is... unnnh. I've got like a million mutually contradictory possibilities going through my head.

586: Parama, is this a 'too blatant to be scum' argument?

What pro-scum reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

Lots.

[Parama]

1. both.
2. tell me.

[The Fonz]

Day Two analysis

I apologise I missed the last day, I totally forgot I was in this game.

- Prozac for obvious reasons.

It really doesn't matter today, since I'm pretty sure Jack is the lynch regardless, but I think we should think about whether we want a claimed Consulmaker as Tribune. Seems like that's putting an awful lot of power in one person's hands to dictate the lynch.

You mean, puts a lot of power in the hands of someone you spent half of yesterday attacking for no good reason, amirite?

Sens' theory opinions here feel incredibly convenient.

Yeah the picks could've been better (scot as consul? Really???)

I'm really, really not seeing anything scummy about Scot. This is kinda baffling.

Noting Reck's use of the 'too scummy to be scum' defence of Jack.

OK guys, I'll give you credit, at least it took 646 posts for someone to come out with the dumbass jester speculation.

657: Hey SpyreX, can you elaborate on this? Why do you think chamber was NKed?

Primate: I assume by 'run cover' you mean try to draw the NK and protect the real one? What is the value of that in this setup?

I seriously hope no-one gets taken in by this pile of scummy self-justifying blather.

Watch and learn:
Jacktown claims consulmaker to cover for the real consulmaker and try to attract a kill as a VT.
Ribwichtown the idiot ccs because he is unable to process this simple thought process and ruins the entire point of Jack's claim.

HATE.

Town should nearly always CC when someone claims their role, because it's so overwhelmingly likely the player is scum. It's been proven over and over that faking power as VT is horrible play, and Jack is not such a dumbass as to not be aware of this- quite the opposite in fact. Also, if ribwich did not cc, and later got run up, he's kinda in the shit, isn't he?

Nate case is charitably regarded as an exercise in massive confirmation bias, and less so as bullshit.

Thank God chesskid was obvtown.

right now I think Jack is nully, but I think he did a really bad move if he really was town.

Nothing's really changed from when you said 'If he's lying, he's scum,' apart from that he's actually been caught lying. - Nate

705: What was that with Sens saying he wouldn't accept 'I woulda vetoed, but...' arguments yesterday?

The predictable rounding on Nate for OMGUS appears to be happening.

Prozac 719 is waffly.

724 is stupid: If Jack needs to die at some point, it is absolutely better that it happens sooner rather than later.

Looks like I'll have to ISO read both dramonic and reckoner next. On my first read, I had a slight town feel from dramonic and mostly neutral on reckoner.

How to remarkably hedge your bets on bussing scum.

Katsuki position, I continue to admire the bravery of it whilst being annoyed at the stupidity. Feysal, given your apparent opinion on Kat, can you name any specific thing she could have done that would have made you see her as scum?

741/4: I hate any argument predicated on whether or not it should have been obvious X was joking. See: Lost Boys mafia.

Faking a post restriction is scummy, since it can allow you to get away with less content. However, this is not a fake post restriction, it's more like minineko's trademark 'meow' at the end of every post.

Lowell hedges on Jack and again says nothing about who else might be scum.

763 (Spyre) nails it.

It's not that Jack shouldn't die; it's that using Jack's non-death as an excuse to do nothing is anti-town.

Yeah, because it's only antitown to do nothing if you've got an exc... oh, wait.

There is also the fact that we have no explanation why scum would make such a move.

OK. READ FUCKING CAREFULLY.

1) Scum are informed, town are not. Therefore, they may well be some wrinkle scum are aware of and I'm not.
2) If not CCed, Jack is able to benefit from additional influence, and freedom from attack entirely. This removes the 'do we bus' quandary from his buddies.
3) If he

is

counterclaimed, this causes town to waste an absolute ton of time discussing how to resolve the consulmaker issue, during which time they are not scumhunting.
4) Offering himself up as an early bus to his team-mates, and handing out a couple of mislynches because there's always going to be SOMEONE who bites on the wifom.
5) The usual benefit of outing as many town roles as possible as early as possible.
6) The Kaleidoscope gambit.

Sens; so scummy early on, yet so right right now.

[Nathanael]

Basically I think Jack would be a fantastic information lynch...

could you tell me the info you expect to get? i.e. assume he flips town/scum, what conclusions would you draw?

this + other things => scot get's back to null.

What's your reasoning for reading it this way? (Not that it's a bad thing, just curious)

he made a good call, yet never tried to draw attention to it. I'd expect scum to try to get towncred out of a nice read like that.
Also, I reread him, and I can more or less follow his reasons in a way that looks quite genuine. It has the wandering character townies tend to have.

while rereading I found this:

Yes, I have a way to figure out which of them is lying by D3. No, I don't think its best to divulge it until just before we execute someone today.

Sens, do you mind explaining your plan? Also, could you please tell why it wasn't a good idea to divulge it? and why did you forget about this later, not following through with it?

Fonz is making a lot of sense; gives me good vibes.

Fonz calls you scum. Repeatedly. You agree?

seconded.

Magua, do you have any plans at all to read day one?

could you sum up the main reads you got from day 1? Which parts do you especially recommend to read?

ribwich 521 is dumb, because the Senator PM includes the word townie. Of course, rib didn't get that pm so it's marginally justifiable, but still.

would you see rib's post as scummy if he wasn't confirmed town?

ribwich

>>

The Fonz = Jack = primate

>

Feysal = Magua

>

scotmany

>

Leon Belmont = SpyreX = Parama

>

Lowell

>

Porochaz = SensFan

[The Fonz]

I'm surprised dramonic was scum. Bussing that hard is a bad strategy when you might get made consul and have to follow through.[/quote]

If you were town, you'd see the possibility that Dram wasn't expecting to have his bluff called because he was expecting an easy execution of you.

Hi. It's about time I dropped by, and we have a new player too. First to make some replies.

Hi guys. I mostly ignored D1, but read D2.

...

People who strike me as scum:
Feysal
SpyreX
scotmany12 (this one's shakier than the others)

Shame about SpyreX being a consul today, IMO. Can't say I really like either of those choices.

Nathaniel gets buddy-buddy points for vetoing my slot's execution (three times, yay!)

If you're awarding Nathanael town points for vetoing your slot's execution, and you have me in your scum list, there is clearly something wrong. Right there... you said you ignored most of day one. I replaced in at the end of the day, and had some words to say about Katsuki's impending lynch. I suggest you read it, and all of day one for that matter.

Hmmmm. I get a vibe of 'Hey dumb noob, pay attention to how I buddied your predecessor!' here.

Ehhhh, caught up to my own entry.

^I am not thinking he is town BECAUSE of it. I just said we should judge him ON EVERYTHING ELSE, i.e. maybe he is town DESPITE the gambit or scum DESPITE the gambit.

Take away the gambit (as if you can take away the most significant thing someone's done) and I find Jack's been markedly less proactive and effective than I've seen in the past. But the fakeclaim is absolutely scummy.


So, overall thoughts:

Jack needs to die. Lynch All Liars still applies.

Sens and Magua are the next scummiest in isolation, but I really don't see them as buddies, so at least one is probably town in spite of their play. Also don't see [Feysal^Magua].

Prozac and Lowell are scummy looking undercontributors, and I'm not willing to give a meta pass on this. I think there's a real danger of town turning in on itself based on different outlooks and letting scum lurk through. If there's a Leon Belmont replacement, he'll have to prove his worth pretty quickly too.

Parama has done a couple of dodgy things, and if it were just him I'd have him as a secondary suspect, but it isn't, and chesskid was obvtown. (Town convinced Sens is scum trying to goad SF into killing him, and making SF look scummier, makes sense: scum begging for death doesn't really. Extension of rudeness is protown).