Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

[Nachomamma8]

Brokenscraps has pinged scumdar quite badly...
fail case (2nd confirm is scum) and chainsaw fail

So now covering up a slip isn't serious... sure whatever.

My vote was serious, in "serious times" as I felt (and still do feel) he was(is) trying to cover for a slip.

I have said again, andrew94s vote made me reconsider the case entirely and I believe they both have something to hide. There's no neighbours... If andrew94 had not voted for me I would have moved on pretty quickly.

I hope you meant AntB because if you were referencing Archer I have no idea what you're talking about.

[lord_hur]

1. I was indeed referring to Archer :

Unvote, Vote: Archer

lord_hur, I figured ALL of his posts give that feeling, especially when he's attacking a suspect in them.

I would like you to develop this. This is not specific enough in my opinion to judge if you actually are honest in your attack.

2. I fail to see what in these posts make you say that AntB does not believe what he says. That would require, in my mind, things like backtracking or contradicting.

[Archer]

I did give a reason, weak voting, which is in my opinion the best way to nail scum, as voting motivation is the main difference in behavior between town and scum. I admit that I did not develop enough, though.

In this post, you say your vote for Egg is now serious, yet you immediately, in the very same post, switch your vote to the wagon-of-the-day for a reason I absolutely disagree with. AntB has never looked to me like he was afraid to die. This vote looked exactly like what (bad) scum would do to score an easy lynch while not being the one hammering. Also, you used "I" in that unneeded explanation, as if you were town, which is a trick I used before as scum.

You simply said it was the worst case of scum bussing you have ever seen (agreeing with andrew94 basically). You gave no reason why you actually thought it was bussing, and simply referred to my entire post all at once (again, looks liek you wanted others to do the thinking for you). Only later do you realise that bussing is an incorrect reason to vote for me, and then later again come up with other reasons.

Yes, in that post I clarified my vote for Egg. The switch of my vote was because just before I posted I checked to see of there were any new developments, and there was. One of the things I saw was what looked to me like a scum slip. Is an apparent scum slip a "weak reason to vote?" So I simply added to my post, otherwise I would be seen as ignoring the questions asked of me. And thats something I dont like people doing to me, so I always try to answer everyones questions, or otherwise be a hypocrite. Reading back I see there could be an alternate way to read the post from AntB that made me vote, but my first instinct was to see it as a scum slip, and I'm sticking with that for now.

Moving on, even though this may turn into OMGUS.. Nacho, each of your votes seems to have been preceeded by the town switching targets. AntB was popular, you go there. Now many people are suspicious of me, and your vote wanders to me. What exactly was this "feeling" you were referring to. Seems like a lot of people are putting things out there while being vague enough to let other people do the work!

[AntB]

My vote for nacho is stone set now methinks. Far too much wagon jumping, not enough reasoning, seems to either be half arsed about the game in general or scum after an easy ride. The posts he's put about me not believing my vote seem to say to opposite IMO, in addition to lord_hurs' backtracking and contradictory comment, I provide my reasoning and stand by my guns throughout. Surely if I didn't believe my own vote I would backtrack, give no reasoning and back down very quickly under town pressure?

@andrew94

cn was the person being wagoned, antb just made a crap reason to jump on someone else (if he jumped on cn, too obvious?)

Its taken you that long to pull that as your reason for voting? I was expecting something a lot better...

[lord_hur]

You simply said it was the worst case of scum bussing you have ever seen (agreeing with andrew94 basically). You gave no reason why you actually thought it was bussing, and simply referred to my entire post all at once (again, looks liek you wanted others to do the thinking for you). Only later do you realise that bussing is an incorrect reason to vote for me, and then later again come up with other reasons.

As I've already said in 156, saying that I actually meant to use the term bussing is utter bullshit, as I clearly said in my very first post that I didn't view AntB as scummy. As the term "bussing" implies that both parties are scum, it is just impossible that I meant to use this term.

The only thing that bothers me is that I don't know yet how smart you are, and whether you did actually believe in that crap, or just wanted to OMGUS me and only found that as a reason you could use.

Also, you say : "Many people are suspicious of me", and "this may turn into OMGUS", this is too defensive in my opinion for proper pro-town play. If you're town, go ahead and stab people where it hurts damn it, who cares about a few votes on yourself! (of course, if you're scum, please die quickly thank you) I actually don't consider I've done a decent job at scum-hunting unless I've a least a couple people at my throat.

[farside22]

My vote for nacho is stone set now methinks. Far too much wagon jumping, not enough reasoning, seems to either be half arsed about the game in general or scum after an easy ride. The posts he's put about me not believing my vote seem to say to opposite IMO, in addition to lord_hurs' backtracking and contradictory comment, I provide my reasoning and stand by my guns throughout. Surely if I didn't believe my own vote I would backtrack, give no reasoning and back down very quickly under town pressure?

This ^ a thousand times this.

Yes, in that post I clarified my vote for Egg. The switch of my vote was because just before I posted I checked to see of there were any new developments, and there was. One of the things I saw was what looked to me like a scum slip. Is an apparent scum slip a "weak reason to vote?" So I simply added to my post, otherwise I would be seen as ignoring the questions asked of me. And thats something I dont like people doing to me, so I always try to answer everyones questions, or otherwise be a hypocrite.

This is really scummy in my view. I used to do this as scum where I would point out things like look I'm answering questions.
Also one new development from Ant switches a vote from someone you sound (in the post that hur quoted) that Egg was scummy but vote for AntB for a weaker reason is a scum move.

Archer moves to the number 2 spot for scum.

[farside22]

Oh sorry for calling you girl Lord_Hur.
I am definitely not as active in games as I used to be but I think I finally figured out how to fit mafia into my schedule.

[inHimshallibe]

DavidParker replaces MidnightHike, effective immediately.

Vote count in the next post.

[inHimshallibe]

Official Day 1 Vote Tally

13 players remain; 7 votes needed for a lynch.

Nachomamma8 (4)

- farside22, brokenscraps, AntB, drmyshottyizsik

AntB (2)

- andrew94, Archer

Archer (2)

- lord_hur, Nachomamma8

drmyshottyizsik (1)

- smashbro_of_the_SSS

smashbro_of_the_SSS (1)

- Looker

Yet to vote (3): JesseSheffield, DavidParker, Egg
=========================================================

Prodding

: brokenscraps, Egg

[brokenscraps]

Yes, in that post I clarified my vote for Egg. The switch of my vote was because just before I posted I checked to see of there were any new developments, and there was. One of the things I saw was what looked to me like a scum slip. Is an apparent scum slip a "weak reason to vote?" So I simply added to my post, otherwise I would be seen as ignoring the questions asked of me. And thats something I dont like people doing to me, so I always try to answer everyones questions, or otherwise be a hypocrite. Reading back I see there could be an alternate way to read the post from AntB that made me vote, but my first instinct was to see it as a scum slip, and I'm sticking with that for now.

Looking back on your post the added vote on the end is just after you clarify your vote which makes it seem a little odd that you wouldn't remember to go back and edit the post to make sense, almost seems like engineered recklessness it such an obvious error.

farside's comments on this quote are highly relevant and I support them.

Conspiracy theory: the reason you give for voting AntB (weak) and the way you do it (speedy) makes it seem like you received a secret breadcrumbed signal from you scumpartner, nacho.

Seriously though the vote on AntB was not good and the justifications are worse.

[andrew94]

omg, davidparker? = =

farside, can you explain your 'this ^ a thousand times this' i dont understand

[farside22]

omg, davidparker? = =

farside, can you explain your 'this ^ a thousand times this' i dont understand

Basically I completely agreed with antb about Nacho. That was the 3rd vote from Nacho with very little reason to no reason and seems to be more following BWs.

[DavidParker]

Confirm i'm here, will catchup soooon.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

vote: shotty

, and when i come on in the next couple days, I'll probably move to either nacho or antB. Still, shotty is near the top of my list.

1. How do you explain that drmyshottyizsik is NEAR the top of your list, while the other two names that you talk about have suddenly become "townish"? Who is at the top of your list, and why didn't you vote for him/her?
2. Why did you announce that you will switch your vote to someone you find townish?

Make that answer really good...

At the time, I was in the mentality that one of nacho or antb was scummy, and I would reread to find out which. I had seen the points about them and at the time they made sense, but I hadn't had all that much time to put into the game. So I said I would reread them. I didn't vote either because I wasn't sure which one was scummier, and i didn't think the two of them were scum together. so i dropped down to my next read, shotty.

When I got around to rereading, I found them townish. But that came after I made the post about voting one of them. The idea was that I would reread and then see which one seemed scummy. It turned out that neither really did for me. So I announced I would switch my vote to one of them, but later found them town, so I didn't.

@ archer

you said it was scummy for nacho to jump between wagons. If you think this is scummy, why don't you vote for him?

@farside and anyone in general

shotty usually posts one liners no matter what side he is on, or at least makes short posts. but he's usually found and drilled someone already. He's been pretty inactive in this game, and hasn't given much of a commitment to many reads. He's said he'd like a policy lynch on andrew, but lacking that says either nacho or ant is scum, and then calls nacho scum, and ant jailkeeper(town). So he's not sitting too well with me.

[Nachomamma8]

Every day I stay as farside's top suspect, my heart breaks a little more.

I would like you to develop this. This is not specific enough in my opinion to judge if you actually are honest in your attack.

There are a few reasons as to why I'm voting Archer. For one, his entrance into the game was scummy; he did not comment on brokenscraps tell on me, and he still made an RVS vote despite everything happening around him. Reads as scum trying to fit in, but not quite sure how. Then, there's the hatred for lurkers when he himself was lurking, which is of course hypocritical. But, the main reason for my vote is his response to yours. Instead of defending himself and posting why he wasn't making bad votes, or even asking you to clarify, he says you provided "no reasons", says that people who don't provide reasons are typically scum, and then asks him why you decided to vote him in this scummy way. This is deflection, not defense, and I don't like it at all.

[Nachomamma8]

As to why AntB doesn't believe what he says, refer to #175. The first quote is him saying his scumdar was pinged quite badly, and that brokenscraps's case "failed". And yet, no vote. This shows that his scumdar wasn't pinged that badly, since when people find scum, they put a vote along with their suspicions.

The second quote demonstrates AntB dancing around the answer to a question far more than he needed to. Farside said he was voting for a crap reason, and all he needed to do is answer "a scumslip isn't a crap answer". Again, shows he doesn't believe what he says because he's afraid to just come right out and say it.

The third quote just bleeds of crap. It's drawing scumteams this early in the game that seem to stem from being voted, although he tries to hide it in creative ways.

[Nachomamma8]

Far too much wagon jumping

WAGON JUMPS:
AntB to Archer

How is this "far too much wagon jumping" in the least bit?

not enough reasoning

I have plenty of reasoning, especially considering it's PAGE 8.

seems to either be half arsed about the game in general or scum after an easy ride.

Wonderful fencesitting. What makes you think it's the second as opposed to the first? Why do you think I would be after an easy ride as scum since I was under pressure since we've been out of the starting gate?

The posts he's put about me not believing my vote seem to say to opposite IMO, in addition to lord_hurs' backtracking and contradictory comment,

So you agree that backtracting and contradicting are the only two ways to find out if someone believes what they're doing or not?

Surely if I didn't believe my own vote I would backtrack, give no reasoning and back down very quickly under town pressure?

Beautiful WIFOM. If this were true, then all scum would back down given pressure. All scum don't.

[Archer]

Ok, I understand why you guys suspect me, but the honest truth is I'm simply responding to everything directed at me, as well as pointing out things I find suspect. Seems I need to be more selective in future. I'm going to re-evaluate my position so give me some time to read through everything again. I still think my points are valid but either I've misread the posts they relate to, or I've not explained myself properly.

Just some quick answers
farside - I was responding to another post, I did not randomly come out and say "hey look at me, I'm answering questions"
smashbro - I dont vote everytime anyone does something scummy. That would be chaos and not conducive to actually finding scum

[lord_hur]

At the time, I was in the mentality that one of nacho or antb was scummy, and I would reread to find out which. I had seen the points about them and at the time they made sense, but I hadn't had all that much time to put into the game. So I said I would reread them. I didn't vote either because I wasn't sure which one was scummier, and i didn't think the two of them were scum together. so i dropped down to my next read, shotty.

1. This can be viewed as fencesitting as its best. And you did NOT say you would reread the thread back then, just that you would throw your vote around, as if reasons were not at the center of your thoughts at the moment, but you were rather just annoyed because you didn't know which lynch will be most promising and still wanted to appear as scum-hunting.

2. In my mind, you are also guilty of weak voting : you freely say that both were scummier at the time, yet you did not vote for any of them? You don't know which one is scummier of the two, so you vote for a THIRD, less scummy one? What kind of reasoning is that, seriously?

This does not alleviate any of my doubts concerning you. I like my vote on Archer so I'll not change it, but I wish I had a second one. IGMEOY.

[lord_hur]

@Nachomamma8 : I have duly read and evaluated your answers, but i will not comment them until AntB does.

The posts he's put about me not believing my vote seem to say to opposite IMO, in addition to lord_hurs' backtracking and contradictory comment, I provide my reasoning and stand by my guns throughout.

I do not like how he used my comment without a trace of doubt concerning my alignment, as if he knew I was town. Usually town say "I think he's right" or "that makes sense" in one form or another, and don't use unconfirmed people's words so freely.

[Egg]

My apologies. I've fallen a little behind. I will try to catch up as soon as possible. Tonight, however, I need some sleep. It's 3:30 AM.

[AntB]

As to why AntB doesn't believe what he says, refer to #175. The first quote is him saying his scumdar was pinged quite badly, and that brokenscraps's case "failed". And yet, no vote. This shows that his scumdar wasn't pinged that badly, since when people find scum, they put a vote along with their suspicions.

I'm not "people". I'm AntB. I play how I play, not how people such as yourself expect me to play. When I believe I've found scum I hunt around looking for potential connections. Using peoples reactions at this point can provide me with reads later on.

The second quote demonstrates AntB dancing around the answer to a question far more than he needed to. Farside said he was voting for a crap reason, and all he needed to do is answer "a scumslip isn't a crap answer". Again, shows he doesn't believe what he says because he's afraid to just come right out and say it.

I am a sarcastic person. There is no dancing around, I provided an answer which boils down to "a scumslip isn't a crap reason to vote".

The third quote just bleeds of crap. It's drawing scumteams this early in the game that seem to stem from being voted, although he tries to hide it in creative ways.

I draw a connection for use later when one of them flips. I wasn't pointing a scumteam, I was pointing a possible connection. Could have been a Night 0 investigation for all I know. We won't find out while later.

Far too much wagon jumping

WAGON JUMPS:
AntB to Archer

How is this "far too much wagon jumping" in the least bit?

Opportunistic jumping. You went with the flavour of the day both times.

not enough reasoning

I have plenty of reasoning, especially considering it's PAGE 8.

Your reasoning for voting me is.... nothing. You provide nothing to go with your vote on me - except an L-1 claim. Then later you just wanted the reaction... You lie, to get a reaction...

Your vote for archer is reasoned with this:

lord_hur, I figured ALL of his posts give that feeling, especially when he's attacking a suspect in them.

Nothing of your own, just a generic general agreement.

seems to either be half arsed about the game in general or scum after an easy ride.

Wonderful fencesitting. What makes you think it's the second as opposed to the first? Why do you think I would be after an easy ride as scum since I was under pressure since we've been out of the starting gate?

Well it is quite comfy up there... Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say either option was more viable than the other. But while we're on the matter, opportunistic voting and lying to pull a reaction seem like your attempting to give the illusion of a scum hunt, but are just going with the easy wagons in an attempt to cruise. Even pressured scum can cruise if they're smart enough, as I believe you to be.

The posts he's put about me not believing my vote seem to say to opposite IMO, in addition to lord_hurs' backtracking and contradictory comment,

So you agree that backtracting and contradicting are the only two ways to find out if someone believes what they're doing or not?

If someone doesn't believe the reasoning behind their votes they will either crumble under pressure, contradict themselves, back down quickly, lie and provide minimal reasoning. (Sound familiar?).

Surely if I didn't believe my own vote I would backtrack, give no reasoning and back down very quickly under town pressure?

Beautiful WIFOM. If this were true, then all scum would back down given pressure. All scum don't.

Scum would go for the easiest option, with minimal reasoning; and then with town pressure they would quickly unvote with just as little reason.

----

I do not like how he used my comment without a trace of doubt concerning my alignment, as if he knew I was town. Usually town say "I think he's right" or "that makes sense" in one form or another, and don't use unconfirmed people's words so freely.

I believe it to be a neutral comment, true in many situations regardless of alignment. I would be more concerned with Nachos generic general agreement with your case on archer.

[DavidParker]

About to go to sleep, have had time just to do a skim-read without making any amount of analysis at the moment. Tomorrow night will see me there. Right now it's 6am and I haven't slept sorry.

@mod:

Any update on when the deadline will be?

[farside22]

farside - I was responding to another post, I did not randomly come out and say "hey look at me, I'm answering questions"

I just reread the question to you and your comment in full in make sure and I still find it an unnecessary comment, almost a filler to add something more. The question was about your vote on AntB when your statement was in the prior post had talked more about why Egg was scum and I still don't feel you explained why AntB was scummier then Egg at all.

@Nacho: Please tell me 4 people that you find scummier or suspicious and why.

[inHimshallibe]

About to go to sleep, have had time just to do a skim-read without making any amount of analysis at the moment. Tomorrow night will see me there. Right now it's 6am and I haven't slept sorry.

@mod:

Any update on when the deadline will be?

Yeah, I'll set it in the next post. Looking like a week from Monday.