Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[Neuky]

OK - got some catching up on the whole almost hammer wagon thang to do - but in the meantime...

@Mute
I wanted to check on something.

the list is a tool, yes, that I intend to post updates with it when I feel the need arises, in particular at the start of days.

I'd like to avoid repeating what happened my last newbie game and get caught with the only way to defend myself is to let myself be lynched and have my claim be verified.

Ok regarding the above, I'm reading this as the table will be something town can look at if you die at some stage in the game. It's hardly going to defend you, but it would be a kind of inheritance to town of your thoughts before you died.

My point is you are assuming this would be a lynch, you've even said you'll post it in the morning (not twilight), and not assumed there's a chance you'd get killed at night. Why not?

[Mute]

OK - got some catching up on the whole almost hammer wagon thang to do - but in the meantime...

@Mute
I wanted to check on something.

the list is a tool, yes, that I intend to post updates with it when I feel the need arises, in particular at the start of days.

I'd like to avoid repeating what happened my last newbie game and get caught with the only way to defend myself is to let myself be lynched and have my claim be verified.

Ok regarding the above, I'm reading this as the table will be something town can look at if you die at some stage in the game. It's hardly going to defend you, but it would be a kind of inheritance to town of your thoughts before you died.

My point is you are assuming this would be a lynch, you've even said you'll post it in the morning (not twilight), and not assumed there's a chance you'd get killed at night. Why not?

(taking a break from responding to my other game. yay procrastination.)

There's as much a likelihood as me getting killed at night as there is for anyone.
Yeah I guess it can serve as a "if I'm dead keep an eye on X, Y, and Z," but then that'd be obscuring the likelihood that A, B, or C can be scum as well. That's why I will post it at the start of the day, to not let that happen. If you see an argument of mine and feel it makes sense, fine, but try to build an argument of your own. Don't let my suspicions cloud your own.

That help clarify anything for you?

[Workdawg]

I'm a bit bored and have been reviewing the thread... so this is something of a brain dump for my thoughts on each player so far (in order the are posted in the start of this thread):

TP42

FoS: Mute

because he didn't RVS in his first post and placed the second vote on me afterward. I would vote for you but I don't want to be yelled at for OMGUS. Happpened to me in my first game.

2+3. I've read some games where people have been attacked harshly for "being defensive" in the RVS. And my FoS was pointing out something suspicious, not a die-hard scumtell. I am not going to cause myself to get attacked this early without a solid reason for voting.

First he claims he would vote but is scared of OMGUS vote retaliation, then backtracks to just pointing out something suspicious. This is all during RVS, so it's taken with a grain of salt, but I'm chalking it up to being a newbie (like me) and trying to stay off peoples radar.

That's really the only thing I've found interesting, otherwise it's been general banter.

Neuky

He hasn't been quite as active as some of us, so there's really not much to go on yet. He seemes suspicious of Mute's table still a little bit, but not as much as me.

Mute

We went at it over the table for a while. He's responded decently, but I guess I get a funky vibe off how he claims to be playing the game (scum until proven town) and the table in general. I honestly still can't see how the table benefits anyone but scum... ESPECIALLY when everyone starts out as scum in the table. If the idea of scumhunting is to press specific people until you find someone who is scum, then that table seems quite backwards to me. You press them and their number goes down until you decide they are town. If you press them and just get a bunch of null reads, then they are still going to be scum. Or do you consider a null read to be in town favor based on the chances of them being town > being scum.

Another issue I have with the table, and I've expressed it before, is that it seems to just add a bunch of clutter to the thread rather than just saying "I think x and y are scummy, and here is why" If you post the table, I feel like you'd need to post a reason for every single persons standing in the table. I think it would be too easy to manipulate the table to scum advantage.

Lastly, you never told me what my rating is in your table after the events of last night :p

Angry Scientist

Another person who hasn't really posted that much. He hasn't really revealed anything about himself. I noticed that his registration date is about the same as mine, but he hasn't indicated if he has ever played this before. He seems to talk as though he has, but who knows.

@Angry:

Have you played mafia before? If so, where? etc

Naben

He hasn't even confirmed yet, so yeah...

Stels

I get a townie vibe from him for his encouragement, but that could easily just be the SE trying to help me out.

Ty

I think my thoughts about Ty are fairly clear. He says a lot of stuff, but the content isn't really there. Someone else pointed out that he might just be taking on the role of teacher more than player, but I'm not buying it totally. If he's still playing to win, then I think his words against Nacho speak volumes compared to his general thoughts on gameplay. Certainly he's sharing some good general tips for town, but he's had tunnel vision on nacho from the beginning. He's pointed out some minor stuff with other players logic, but it hasn't been worth mentioning really. Is his tunnel vision because he is scum and wants to oust nacho because he (as the IC) is the one most likely to catch on to his games?

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

This thought just crossed my mind....

Are Nacho AND Ty scum?

This thought is definitely interesting to me now though. Nacho unvoted pretty quickly after we realized I missed the unvote and Ty wasn't gone. If the day really shouldn't end that's something a more experienced player would be better able to decide, but I would think that if you were confident enough to throw down a vote for someone and they almost get lynched, you'd want to stick to it and see if you can get the lynch there.

I also noticed the fact that despite calling out Nacho in every post, Ty hasn't voted for him yet.

Maybe it's a ploy between the two of them (both scum) to try and draw someone out to NK. (If so, I'm probably screwed now, lol) It seems like it'd be pretty safe for a scum to vote for his buddy up to L-2 and the find some reason to unvote at L-1. (I gave him a pretty good one, in this case). Meanwhile, you get to learn what the other players are picking up on and who is most likely a threat to your evil plot to destroy the town.

@Ty:

Vote: Ty

You've failed to explain in your post why not answering your questions has any scum intent behind it. You also failed to answer my question. Instead, you posted a case on me which is concluded with a question: why shouldn't you lynch me? Well, if you're town you don't feel confident enough to put a vote with that case, so you'll only end up making yourself look like scum. But if you ARE scum, then go ahead. I'd love to see you try to lynch me.

In only his second post, Nacho voted for Ty simply because he didn't answer one post well enough.

Didn't two other people says that it's scummy to challenge others to form a wagon against youself?
Isn't that what Nacho just did above?
Is this one of those risky gambits you were talking about before nacho?


------------

It occurs to me now that the scum is probably already submitting their NK with my name on it... and whether that happens or not I suppose doesn't really mean anything. If I get NKd, it'll make Nacho and Ty look extra suspicious, even though the real scum might simply be using that as a cover for themselves.

/end brain dump

[Mute]

Mute

We went at it over the table for a while. He's responded decently, but I guess I get a funky vibe off how he claims to be playing the game (scum until proven town) and the table in general. I honestly still can't see how the table benefits anyone but scum... ESPECIALLY when everyone starts out as scum in the table. If the idea of scumhunting is to press specific people until you find someone who is scum, then that table seems quite backwards to me. You press them and their number goes down until you decide they are town. If you press them and just get a bunch of null reads, then they are still going to be scum. Or do you consider a null read to be in town favor based on the chances of them being town > being scum.

Another issue I have with the table, and I've expressed it before, is that it seems to just add a bunch of clutter to the thread rather than just saying "I think x and y are scummy, and here is why" If you post the table, I feel like you'd need to post a reason for every single persons standing in the table. I think it would be too easy to manipulate the table to scum advantage.

Lastly, you never told me what my rating is in your table after the events of last night :p

I'll address you points in quick.
>I posted a list of what i felt each number to be. It's the post immediately after I first posted the list. This is pertaining to what numbers I give a person.
>If I post just the person's standing on the table, without saying anything else, I feel I don't have to explain myself. If I am questioned why X is #, I'll respond, as will I do if I present a case to justify X's # on it.
Hopefully we can move past this concern about the table. It does nothing but bog down on scum-hunting.
>As of now the results you see on the table at present are what they are now. After re-thinking, I feel that you were honest in you making a mistake, but I don't discredit the chance of you being scum either. I feel it is less likely in hindsight, but I don't dismiss it.

@Mod: Are we going to look for a replacement for Naben's slot? I feel that it's time to do so.

Also as for a Ty/Nacho scumteam, unlikely. This is my opinion, and for now it is not backed by fact but with gut. Either or has a chance of being scum, but both? not likely. /two cents.

[Neuky]

That help clarify anything for you?

Woosh! No. I was saying that you never considered dying in the night. Only scum are guaranteed to survive the night.

Workdawg, did you think it was a good idea to finish the day and hammer someone when one player hasn't even posted yet? I mean seriously?

For the record - I don't like Ty's apparent aggression, or advice/scumhunting balance - but, I have seen this in the games I've read and it comes from both scum and town (experienced players especially).

The wagon on Ty:

Post #40 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:12 pm - vote 1: Mute - for contradictions - pressure on Nacho but not on Naben

Post #43 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:49 am - vote 2: Nachomamma8 - Ok, not too sure what's going on between these two, but Nacho's reasons aren't clear to me in his post.

Post #46 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:00 am - vote 3: Stels - I disagree with the 3 main paragraphs in this post, but also, no scum hunting, no real reasons - it's his motivation here that makes me wonder. It's all about him, then he votes Ty.

10 minutes later:

Post #47 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:10 am - vote 4 (Dawg thinks it's 5) - "In the interests of moving things along" - uck!

I'm not happy writing off dawg's actions here as noob town, if anything I agree with theplage - this is an epic fail. Noob scum I'm guessing. Oh, and I'm off to ISO that wagon - maybe others might want to do the same. I'm sure we have some of the best info right there, consider the speed of it - maybe a coincidence (or pre-planned?), but maybe both scum were online at the same time and tried to get a mislynch?

[Neuky]

Just want to add - yes I'm thinking currently of a Dawg / Stels partnership - and I've just seen Dawg's post 77 -

Stels

I get a townie vibe from him for his encouragement, but that could easily just be the SE trying to help me out.

Had to whoop when I saw this! "Yep Stels a townie, except if he flips scum, he could just have been helping me out as SE"...

[Workdawg]

Well, like I said, I got anxious to get things rolling. I'm online all day at work and the idea of waiting 2 weeks for the first day to be over sounds insane to me. I felt like there was ample evidence against Ty to make a lynch happen. Clearly some people disagree with that. Like I said before, I don't regret voting for him, that's why my vote is still on him. It's unfortunate that I miscounted the votes, but it is what it is. An innocent mistake.

[theplague42]

@Workdawg

More suspicious behavior. Why would they NK you? The only way I could see that happening is 1. you did actually hammer, and 2. Ty was scum. Unless you were ultra-early bussing your partner. If a player gets enough suspicion, he's probably going to be left alive as a scapegoat. Or left alive to create WIFOM confusion.

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

I would rather have an IC play more teacher than player than the other way around. Why would anyone believe he is scum if he is tossing out good thoughts, asking questions, and defending himself well? Isn't that what town is supposed to do?

And why is nacho voting ty suspicious? It was still RVS, so any and every possible scumtell is worthy of suspicion, considering there isn't much else to go on. How can you accuse Ty of tunneling on Nacho? In post 77, you comment on every player in the game, excluding yourself of course. Yet you only post real evidence/quotes for the argument against me and Nacho. The difference is that you are agreeing (?) with me. I'm not sure what word to use, but your conclusion is that my response was not scummy. Your attack on Nacho was by far the longest out of any of them. Then you throw out the possibility of Ty/Nacho scumteam. The point that I agree with on that is the "suspicion, but no vote" on Ty's part towards Nacho. The unvote by Nacho isn't suspicious at all by itself. He already gave a perfectly good reason for it, avoiding "crazed newbies" such as yourself. However, I will again point out the lack of emotion on Nacho's part. The "if it were a normal game" logic seems silly. There are ways to express your anger without scaring people off. But I think this points to Nacho as scum, while not really saying anything about Ty. Hopefully this is clear, as I'm just going by order that I remember.

@Neuky

I think aggression is more of a towntell than a scumtell in a newbie games. SEs and ICs are supposed to play at their best, as that would teach us newbies more than if they intentionally played badly, which would probably be very difficult to do anyways.

Aside from that, I agree with the newb-scum possibility (bad word, but I can't think of the one I want to use; starts with a "c"...) and the dawg/stels team idea. He makes a lukewarm comment about Stel's encouragement, which pales in comparison to the amount of advice Ty has given (his towniness/scuminess is irrelevant for this). The fact that you took the time to post out the wagon is really pro-town and just plain helpful IMO.

Preview edit: Yet another disturbing lack of emotion. AFAIK newb-town are more likely to freak out, while newb-scum are more likely to just sit there. Also, as I was reading over my post (finally previewing to avoid errors:)), I had a thought about the tunneling on Nacho. By this point, Workdawg seems to have more suspicion on Nacho than Ty, judging by his summary post above. Then why keep your vote on Ty instead of Nacho?

@All

I would like to know everyone's view on Dawg's reponse to the pseudo-quicklynch. And can we get one or two more votes on him to see what happens? Just to be clear, if anyone quicklynches "accidentally," you will be next on my personal, gold- and platinum-plated chopping block.

[Angry Scientist]

Whoa boy... Terribly sorry for that, but

Mod: Please replace me.

I calculated, I'll have enough time for my job, activities, and this game, but I just got buried under a MASSIVE stockpile of work to, and I'll doubt I'll be done with it until mid-February.

Sorry once again, and good luck! I had a lot of fun playing with you.

[Drench]

Naben has confirmed! Yes, that's right, nobody flaked in the confirmation stage!

asano234 replaces Angry Scientist starting immediately. Please welcome them!

[Stels]

@Nacho:

@Stels:
Nothing fun happens until Day 3 . But I'm likely to be killed early in this game, so I might as well make the best out of the time I have, right? Just lynch the last scum after I'm gone, okay?

Alright, unless I die before or right after you :O

@Mute: Right-aligned text is really hard to locate, plus the thin-line is commonly mistaken with the line that separates your post and the buttons on the left. I don't mind that your completed games are in your sig, I just find it hard to find is all.

@Ty: What has gotten in to you? Why are you getting so personal? OK, I answered the questions, what are you not happy about? I stated that I hated them, yet I saw no reason for someone pro-town to not answer them. Ok, maybe you're questions were all random, but usually they have some type of reasoning behind them, like (omfg... I keep referring to this) My First Newbie Game which is 972, where he asks everyone questions based on experiences, tactics and even has some random question from Monty Python. As I have stated before, I don't hate YOUR questions, I just hate all the RQS in general. They just don't help me one bit. Yes they can be used against anyone if they simply go against what they answered, if there is such a question.
So, you're obsessed with me n' Nacho not posting any information? Well sorry! Not my fault I'm limited to my time I can spend on MS trying to read through a bunch of walls, type up my own response to what has accumulated and then being ninja'd by another dozen of posts and being unable to deal with that until tomorrow arrives.
So you don't like throwing your vote around, OK, me neither, yet I do it because I have to. I think it's anti-town for someone not to use your vote. You apply pressure to the person in that he is nearing his lynch. A vote is the only weapon that the town has, so why not utilize it? So far, I haven't seen you ever vote, not even for RVS. Please don't use your "But I did the RQS, so hah!" because that is no reason to not vote. You said I was scum, yet do not vote me. Later you say that you're scumhunting other people and dispersed your thought that I was scum based on nothing, although basing that I was scum also came from nothing. You sort of try and pursue Nacho, a bit intensely, yet no vote. Is it because he said that he encourages scum to try and lynch him or make townies look scummy? What you're doing now is worrying about your looks, which is generally more of a scum-tell than a town-tell, especially in your shoes.

IGMEOY

. Besides, you almost got lynched, think about how you're acting and maybe you'll avoid another bandwagon from forming on you. Oh, and no need to get emotional over you almost getting hammered. It didn't happen, so why get emotional over nothing?

@Workdawg: I'm sorry Workdawg, but your post #77 just made me ROFL. Pretty sure plague said this, but I see no reason whatsoever to for scum to kill you right now. Care to explain why you think you painted a target on your back? Is it because you're trying to scumhunt Ty and Nacho? You haven't really said anything that makes them look like scum.

@ThePlague: So you want people to cast a couple of votes onto Workdawg? What's the point? There is no pressure at all in them, since it was done at the command of someone and not by the person's own will. What's stopping those people from unvoting or even voting him at all? Nothing.
Yes, my posts are nothing in comparison to Ty's freaking walls, I'm sorry. As I have said before, if you don't know something, just ask, otherwise I'll keep quiet or I'll try and advise someone to at least do something instead of giving up and lurking.

@Neuky: Reason for voting, if you can't clearly see it: apply pressure to Ty, especially since his wagon did reach to a considerable amount. He accused me of being scum yet didn't vote. That seemed scummy to me, so I voted him, asking for a reason and deciding whether or not that reason is sufficient. I unvoted since we almost had Day 1 ended on page three. Once he posts some answers to the questions in this post adressed to him, I'll decide whether my IGMEOY is worth keeping, changing to a vote, etc.

[Mute]

Naben has confirmed! Yes, that's right, nobody flaked in the confirmation stage!

asano234 replaces Angry Scientist starting immediately. Please welcome them!

Oh joy!

@Naben: Please get caught up and give us your take on the game thus far.

I know 4 pages is a lot to go through for some, and I assume real life interferences are what caused your delay?

[Workdawg]

@Workdawg

More suspicious behavior. Why would they NK you? The only way I could see that happening is 1. you did actually hammer, and 2. Ty was scum. Unless you were ultra-early bussing your partner. If a player gets enough suspicion, he's probably going to be left alive as a scapegoat. Or left alive to create WIFOM confusion.

I felt like a target because I stirred up a lot of crap and it seems like that would make me an easy target, but you make a good point that leaving me out there as a scapegoat is also a likely play. I guess I feel better about that, lol.

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

I would rather have an IC play more teacher than player than the other way around. Why would anyone believe he is scum if he is tossing out good thoughts, asking questions, and defending himself well? Isn't that what town is supposed to do?

And why is nacho voting ty suspicious? It was still RVS, so any and every possible scumtell is worthy of suspicion, considering there isn't much else to go on. How can you accuse Ty of tunneling on Nacho? In post 77, you comment on every player in the game, excluding yourself of course. Yet you only post real evidence/quotes for the argument against me and Nacho. The difference is that you are agreeing (?) with me. I'm not sure what word to use, but your conclusion is that my response was not scummy. Your attack on Nacho was by far the longest out of any of them. Then you throw out the possibility of Ty/Nacho scumteam. The point that I agree with on that is the "suspicion, but no vote" on Ty's part towards Nacho. The unvote by Nacho isn't suspicious at all by itself. He already gave a perfectly good reason for it, avoiding "crazed newbies" such as yourself. However, I will again point out the lack of emotion on Nacho's part. The "if it were a normal game" logic seems silly. There are ways to express your anger without scaring people off. But I think this points to Nacho as scum, while not really saying anything about Ty. Hopefully this is clear, as I'm just going by order that I remember.

That's true, but he explicitly said he was going to do whatever it takes to win. If he REALLY thought Ty was scum, then it seems like the right move would have been to stick to his guns on that. If he's going the IC route and trying to prolong day one as he says, then that's fine. Maybe there's just not enough evidence against Ty yet and his vote was simply to stir the pot and try to get a reaction out of Ty. I can't comment on his intent, just my analysis of it. I didn't really intend for that to be an attack on Nacho. The first line of my statement is how I feel about him... his actions surrounding Ty have me suspicious and I stated that suspicion.

Am I supposed to keep my crazy thoughts to myself and then start yelling I KNEW IT when it happens, or throw them out there and let people shoot holes in them? You've said you agree with parts of it (at least the scumminess of some of Nacho's actions), so obviously I'm not completely off my rocker.

Also, am I supposed to analyze myself? I thought that was everyone else's job. I guess if you want that, here it is.

Workdawg

Silly newb making a ton of mistakes, but he is more town than the mayor of townsvilleland..

@Neuky

I think aggression is more of a towntell than a scumtell in a newbie games. SEs and ICs are supposed to play at their best, as that would teach us newbies more than if they intentionally played badly, which would probably be very difficult to do anyways.

Aside from that, I agree with the newb-scum possibility (bad word, but I can't think of the one I want to use; starts with a "c"...) and the dawg/stels team idea. He makes a lukewarm comment about Stel's encouragement, which pales in comparison to the amount of advice Ty has given (his towniness/scuminess is irrelevant for this). The fact that you took the time to post out the wagon is really pro-town and just plain helpful IMO.

Preview edit: Yet another disturbing lack of emotion. AFAIK newb-town are more likely to freak out, while newb-scum are more likely to just sit there. Also, as I was reading over my post (finally previewing to avoid errors:)), I had a thought about the tunneling on Nacho. By this point, Workdawg seems to have more suspicion on Nacho than Ty, judging by his summary post above. Then why keep your vote on Ty instead of Nacho?

As far as the "dawg/stels" team idea, that's an interesting suggestion I suppose. What was the great and wonderful plan? Pick the first person to get two votes and attempt to wagon them, and then F up the vote count (or I suppose run it up to 4 and then hope someone else hammers)? Didn't Nacho say that the usual scum hammer move is to pretend you didn't realize it and then try to act innocent when you get caught laying down the hammer? IIRC, Scum can only communicate at night (and apparently during confirmation according to the rules) so it's not like we would have had time to talk about who we want to target. My comments about Stels are simply because he specifically encouraged me to keep going after most everyone turned on me.

@Workdawg: If a wagon comes onto, there is always something that you can do to redeem yourself or at least be helpful to town by scumhunting even if you are lynched. Don't. Give. Up.
Just to point out something: Don't be concerned with looks, just don't bother with it. The only thing I can see in that is more of a scum-tell than a town-tell, since scum have more reason for wanting to look good than town. Sure you don't want to be lynched for looking scummy, but trying to appear to be something you are not, isn't helpful at all. Just be yourself and do what you got to do. I think I got lynched as that being part of the reason in my first Newbie Game as well.

I would call that encouragement. While certainly Ty has provided useful help, he hasn't really provided encouragement like that. Ty still hasn't even really posted a response to what happened yet. He acknowledged reading it, but not there was no response.

About the second part here:
First Neuky gets on my case about showing emotion in my posts, and now you get on my case about not doing so. What do you guys want from me? lol

[Mute]

@Workdawg

More suspicious behavior. Why would they NK you? The only way I could see that happening is 1. you did actually hammer, and 2. Ty was scum. Unless you were ultra-early bussing your partner. If a player gets enough suspicion, he's probably going to be left alive as a scapegoat. Or left alive to create WIFOM confusion.

I felt like a target because I stirred up a lot of crap and it seems like that would make me an easy target, but you make a good point that leaving me out there as a scapegoat is also a likely play. I guess I feel better about that, lol.

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

I would rather have an IC play more teacher than player than the other way around. Why would anyone believe he is scum if he is tossing out good thoughts, asking questions, and defending himself well? Isn't that what town is supposed to do?

And why is nacho voting ty suspicious? It was still RVS, so any and every possible scumtell is worthy of suspicion, considering there isn't much else to go on. How can you accuse Ty of tunneling on Nacho? In post 77, you comment on every player in the game, excluding yourself of course. Yet you only post real evidence/quotes for the argument against me and Nacho. The difference is that you are agreeing (?) with me. I'm not sure what word to use, but your conclusion is that my response was not scummy. Your attack on Nacho was by far the longest out of any of them. Then you throw out the possibility of Ty/Nacho scumteam. The point that I agree with on that is the "suspicion, but no vote" on Ty's part towards Nacho. The unvote by Nacho isn't suspicious at all by itself. He already gave a perfectly good reason for it, avoiding "crazed newbies" such as yourself. However, I will again point out the lack of emotion on Nacho's part. The "if it were a normal game" logic seems silly. There are ways to express your anger without scaring people off. But I think this points to Nacho as scum, while not really saying anything about Ty. Hopefully this is clear, as I'm just going by order that I remember.

That's true, but he explicitly said he was going to do whatever it takes to win. If he REALLY thought Ty was scum, then it seems like the right move would have been to stick to his guns on that. If he's going the IC route and trying to prolong day one as he says, then that's fine. Maybe there's just not enough evidence against Ty yet and his vote was simply to stir the pot and try to get a reaction out of Ty. I can't comment on his intent, just my analysis of it. I didn't really intend for that to be an attack on Nacho. The first line of my statement is how I feel about him... his actions surrounding Ty have me suspicious and I stated that suspicion.

(1)Am I supposed to keep my crazy thoughts to myself and then start yelling I KNEW IT when it happens, or throw them out there and let people shoot holes in them?

You've said you agree with parts of it (at least the scumminess of some of Nacho's actions), so obviously I'm not completely off my rocker.

(2)Also, am I supposed to analyze myself?

I thought that was everyone else's job. I guess if you want that, here it is.

Workdawg

Silly newb making a ton of mistakes,

(3)but he is more town than the mayor of townsvilleland

..

@Neuky

I think aggression is more of a towntell than a scumtell in a newbie games. SEs and ICs are supposed to play at their best, as that would teach us newbies more than if they intentionally played badly, which would probably be very difficult to do anyways.

(4)Aside from that, I agree with the newb-scum possibility (bad word, but I can't think of the one I want to use; starts with a "c"...) and the dawg/stels team idea.

He makes a lukewarm comment about Stel's encouragement, which pales in comparison to the amount of advice Ty has given (his towniness/scuminess is irrelevant for this). The fact that you took the time to post out the wagon is really pro-town and just plain helpful IMO.

Preview edit: Yet another disturbing lack of emotion.

(5)AFAIK newb-town are more likely to freak out, while newb-scum are more likely to just sit there.

Also, as I was reading over my post (finally previewing to avoid errors:)), I had a thought about the tunneling on Nacho. By this point, Workdawg seems to have more suspicion on Nacho than Ty, judging by his summary post above. Then why keep your vote on Ty instead of Nacho?

(6)As far as the "dawg/stels" team idea, that's an interesting suggestion I suppose. What was the great and wonderful plan? Pick the first person to get two votes and attempt to wagon them, and then F up the vote count (or I suppose run it up to 4 and then hope someone else hammers)?

Didn't Nacho say that the usual scum hammer move is to pretend you didn't realize it and then try to act innocent when you get caught laying down the hammer?

(7)IIRC, Scum can only communicate at night (and apparently during confirmation according to the rules)

so it's not like we would have had time to talk about who we want to target. My comments about Stels are simply because he specifically encouraged me to keep going after most everyone turned on me.

@Workdawg: If a wagon comes onto, there is always something that you can do to redeem yourself or at least be helpful to town by scumhunting even if you are lynched. Don't. Give. Up.
Just to point out something: Don't be concerned with looks, just don't bother with it. The only thing I can see in that is more of a scum-tell than a town-tell, since scum have more reason for wanting to look good than town. Sure you don't want to be lynched for looking scummy, but trying to appear to be something you are not, isn't helpful at all. Just be yourself and do what you got to do. I think I got lynched as that being part of the reason in my first Newbie Game as well.

I would call that encouragement. While certainly Ty has provided useful help, he hasn't really provided encouragement like that. Ty still hasn't even really posted a response to what happened yet. He acknowledged reading it, but not there was no response.

About the second part here:
First Neuky gets on my case about showing emotion in my posts, and now you get on my case about not doing so. What do you guys want from me? lol

...oh wow...
Yeah, I'll explain myself in a second, but for now:

Unvote; Vote: Workdawg

You're trying really hard, too hard in fact, to come off as town to make up from your mistaken attempt at a quick-hammer earlier.

First bolded segment: Yes, that is what you're supposed to do, throw your ideas out to let people shoot holes in them. If your logic/reasoning is flawed it hurts town to both keep it secret, and to keep that flawed logic in the game.
Second and third bolded segments: You're really trying hard to come off as newb-town, which frankly makes me see you as newb-scum slipping up.
Fourth bolded segment: Did you just acknowledge/oust yourself as scum by saying you can agree to the likelihood of a scum-team of you and stels?
Fifth bolded part: Pure speculation on your part, which I find misleading to the town.
*Worthy of note: the 4th and 5th bolded segments are all within his self-analysis.
Sixth and Seventh bolded segments: both are scum-slips, with the 7th being the most severe. There is nothing in the rules what so ever about scum being able to talk during the confirmation phase. Nothing at all. You'd only be able to know this if you were scum.

And for the sake of ease, I've numbered each bolded segment.
Everyone, let's lynch this scum.

[Mute]

To prove my point on bolded segment #7, this is the rule regarding posting restrictions.

2. Unless it is explicitly stated in your role PM that you can do so, do not communicate with anyone outside this thread. Even then, only communicate when your role PM states you can.

[Mute]

Sorry for triple posting but I forgot to and wanted to make sure my math was right.

Workdawg is now, with my vote, at L-2

.

[theplague42]

Am I supposed to keep my crazy thoughts to myself and then start yelling I KNEW IT when it happens, or throw them out there and let people shoot holes in them? You've said you agree with parts of it (at least the scumminess of some of Nacho's actions), so obviously I'm not completely off my rocker.

Throw them out there. Any "holes" are probably actual flaws. Townies rip apart false arguments because 1. They want to follow more substantial arguments, and 2. Because scum's arguments are usually weaker than towns (usually is the key word). If your suspicions turn out to be true, tells us all you want. Otherwise not a single person would believe that you had actually thought of it before.

Also, your silly thought about why you would be NK'd is ridiculous. Why would

scum

NK a prime person for the next mislynch they are trying to achieve?

Preview edit: Wow. Just wow. Mute just shot more holes in Worldawg's argument than he could have with a minigun. Also, thanks mute for posting he's at L-2. Avoids any more "mistakes."

[theplague42]

Actually, I just realized I'm an idiot. Mute, do you realize that points 4 and 5 are

my

words? This does throw bad light on the rest of the argument, but number 7 is pure gold. I will point out the possibility of Mute bussing his partner. I think it's extremely unlikely, but it's a thought. Barring the two screwed up points, the whole process seems too good to be a scum bus.

[theplague42]

Back-to-back triple posts. My "I'm an idiot" comment refers to me not realizing that those two points were my words, not Workdawgs. Just to avoid ambiguities.

[Mute]

Actually, I just realized I'm an idiot. Mute, do you realize that points 4 and 5 are

my

words? This does throw bad light on the rest of the argument, but number 7 is pure gold. I will point out the possibility of Mute bussing his partner. I think it's extremely unlikely, but it's a thought. Barring the two screwed up points, the whole process seems too good to be a scum bus.

Actually I did miss that 4 and 5 were within a quote made by you. I saw that he started to give an analysis on himself, by bolding his name, and missed that he quoted you. I tunneled in on all the scum-slips he made, and hadn't noticed.

If for nothing else, #7 is the single greatest scum-tell, slip, and exposure that he's made. The rushed mis-hammer is a medium scum-tell given the cover of a newbie mistake, but that argument was torn down to a small-level tell by his "Reading the theory and participating in practice are two different things" comment.

If he flips scum, I anticipate dying tonight.

[theplague42]

In retrospect, 4 is the same thing as 6. Except that it's the right person's quote. 5 is completely wrong though. And I would argue that point 7 is the " single greatest scum-tell, slip, and exposure" that

anyone

[i/]

has made. It directly points to him having more information than everyone else. I imagine that it's the most basic and powerful scumtell in the game, and the basis for all the rest. Isn't that the reason that Mafia was created in the first place? "An uninformed majority against an informed minority?"

[Workdawg]

@Workdawg

More suspicious behavior. Why would they NK you? The only way I could see that happening is 1. you did actually hammer, and 2. Ty was scum. Unless you were ultra-early bussing your partner. If a player gets enough suspicion, he's probably going to be left alive as a scapegoat. Or left alive to create WIFOM confusion.

I felt like a target because I stirred up a lot of crap and it seems like that would make me an easy target, but you make a good point that leaving me out there as a scapegoat is also a likely play. I guess I feel better about that, lol.

Nacho

I feel like he's really playing his IC role more than the game. He's definitely tossing out good thoughts and make people question eachother. He's also defended himself well against Ty. No one else has really questioned him though.

I would rather have an IC play more teacher than player than the other way around. Why would anyone believe he is scum if he is tossing out good thoughts, asking questions, and defending himself well? Isn't that what town is supposed to do?

And why is nacho voting ty suspicious? It was still RVS, so any and every possible scumtell is worthy of suspicion, considering there isn't much else to go on. How can you accuse Ty of tunneling on Nacho? In post 77, you comment on every player in the game, excluding yourself of course. Yet you only post real evidence/quotes for the argument against me and Nacho. The difference is that you are agreeing (?) with me. I'm not sure what word to use, but your conclusion is that my response was not scummy. Your attack on Nacho was by far the longest out of any of them. Then you throw out the possibility of Ty/Nacho scumteam. The point that I agree with on that is the "suspicion, but no vote" on Ty's part towards Nacho. The unvote by Nacho isn't suspicious at all by itself. He already gave a perfectly good reason for it, avoiding "crazed newbies" such as yourself. However, I will again point out the lack of emotion on Nacho's part. The "if it were a normal game" logic seems silly. There are ways to express your anger without scaring people off. But I think this points to Nacho as scum, while not really saying anything about Ty. Hopefully this is clear, as I'm just going by order that I remember.

That's true, but he explicitly said he was going to do whatever it takes to win. If he REALLY thought Ty was scum, then it seems like the right move would have been to stick to his guns on that. If he's going the IC route and trying to prolong day one as he says, then that's fine. Maybe there's just not enough evidence against Ty yet and his vote was simply to stir the pot and try to get a reaction out of Ty. I can't comment on his intent, just my analysis of it. I didn't really intend for that to be an attack on Nacho. The first line of my statement is how I feel about him... his actions surrounding Ty have me suspicious and I stated that suspicion.

(1)Am I supposed to keep my crazy thoughts to myself and then start yelling I KNEW IT when it happens, or throw them out there and let people shoot holes in them?

You've said you agree with parts of it (at least the scumminess of some of Nacho's actions), so obviously I'm not completely off my rocker.

(2)Also, am I supposed to analyze myself?

I thought that was everyone else's job. I guess if you want that, here it is.

Workdawg

Silly newb making a ton of mistakes,

(3)but he is more town than the mayor of townsvilleland

..

@Neuky

I think aggression is more of a towntell than a scumtell in a newbie games. SEs and ICs are supposed to play at their best, as that would teach us newbies more than if they intentionally played badly, which would probably be very difficult to do anyways.

(4)Aside from that, I agree with the newb-scum possibility (bad word, but I can't think of the one I want to use; starts with a "c"...) and the dawg/stels team idea.

He makes a lukewarm comment about Stel's encouragement, which pales in comparison to the amount of advice Ty has given (his towniness/scuminess is irrelevant for this). The fact that you took the time to post out the wagon is really pro-town and just plain helpful IMO.

Preview edit: Yet another disturbing lack of emotion.

(5)AFAIK newb-town are more likely to freak out, while newb-scum are more likely to just sit there.

Also, as I was reading over my post (finally previewing to avoid errors:)), I had a thought about the tunneling on Nacho. By this point, Workdawg seems to have more suspicion on Nacho than Ty, judging by his summary post above. Then why keep your vote on Ty instead of Nacho?

(6)As far as the "dawg/stels" team idea, that's an interesting suggestion I suppose. What was the great and wonderful plan? Pick the first person to get two votes and attempt to wagon them, and then F up the vote count (or I suppose run it up to 4 and then hope someone else hammers)?

Didn't Nacho say that the usual scum hammer move is to pretend you didn't realize it and then try to act innocent when you get caught laying down the hammer?

(7)IIRC, Scum can only communicate at night (and apparently during confirmation according to the rules)

so it's not like we would have had time to talk about who we want to target. My comments about Stels are simply because he specifically encouraged me to keep going after most everyone turned on me.

@Workdawg: If a wagon comes onto, there is always something that you can do to redeem yourself or at least be helpful to town by scumhunting even if you are lynched. Don't. Give. Up.
Just to point out something: Don't be concerned with looks, just don't bother with it. The only thing I can see in that is more of a scum-tell than a town-tell, since scum have more reason for wanting to look good than town. Sure you don't want to be lynched for looking scummy, but trying to appear to be something you are not, isn't helpful at all. Just be yourself and do what you got to do. I think I got lynched as that being part of the reason in my first Newbie Game as well.

I would call that encouragement. While certainly Ty has provided useful help, he hasn't really provided encouragement like that. Ty still hasn't even really posted a response to what happened yet. He acknowledged reading it, but not there was no response.

About the second part here:
First Neuky gets on my case about showing emotion in my posts, and now you get on my case about not doing so. What do you guys want from me? lol

...oh wow...
Yeah, I'll explain myself in a second, but for now:

Unvote; Vote: Workdawg

You're trying really hard, too hard in fact, to come off as town to make up from your mistaken attempt at a quick-hammer earlier.

First bolded segment: Yes, that is what you're supposed to do, throw your ideas out to let people shoot holes in them. If your logic/reasoning is flawed it hurts town to both keep it secret, and to keep that flawed logic in the game.
Second and third bolded segments: You're really trying hard to come off as newb-town, which frankly makes me see you as newb-scum slipping up.
Fourth bolded segment: Did you just acknowledge/oust yourself as scum by saying you can agree to the likelihood of a scum-team of you and stels?
Fifth bolded part: Pure speculation on your part, which I find misleading to the town.
*Worthy of note: the 4th and 5th bolded segments are all within his self-analysis.
Sixth and Seventh bolded segments: both are scum-slips, with the 7th being the most severe. There is nothing in the rules what so ever about scum being able to talk during the confirmation phase. Nothing at all. You'd only be able to know this if you were scum.

And for the sake of ease, I've numbered each bolded segment.
Everyone, let's lynch this scum.

Wow... so you've made a lot of mistakes in your analysis...

I'll just acknowledge everything you said.

1. No real need to say anything about this.
2/3. Apparently my sarcasm/joking is lost on you.
4/5. As TP42 pointed out, those are HIS WORDS, not mine.
6/7. I got that information from the sample role PMs that are posted in post #2 in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote the Mods stuff or not (it says no to PMs for sure, but no mention I see of quoting his posts). But if you read the very first mafia sample role PM, it says very clearly that scum are allowed to talk to eachother at night and during the confirmation stages of the game. I guess if you want to see that as a tell, be my guest. But it's HEAVILY implied in the very rules of this game that it's allowed.

[Workdawg]

I know neither of your are SE or IC players, but jeez, maybe peruse the rules. Literally every standard game I read allowed the scum to communicate at night.

[theplague42]

Damn. This is indeed a newbie game, isn't it? Therefore, roles are shown. Gah!!

Unvote

Vote: Mute

More being swayed by others' logic...

Preview edit: I suppose you mean confirmation stage, not night?

[Workdawg]

I mean both, they are both listed explicitly in the Role PMs.