Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[theplague42]

This is my second game, and I remembered the rules for 98% of stuff. I forgot that role PMs were shown, not roles just being posted.

@workdawg
Whose alt are you?

[Workdawg]

I guess I'll have go back and take a look at Mute. I've never been really comfortable with any of his answers. I don't hold it against him for misreading pretty much my entire post.

@TP42

I am no alt. I just read the rules... lol

Would you like to share your reasons for voting for him (information is town's power, remember) :p

[Mute]

@Dawg: That is still no excuse. You state that scum can post during confirmation, via the rules. That was not found in the rules, it was found in the sample role PM's. You've still slipped up and stated that it was in the rules that you may talk to your scum partner during the confirmation stage. You are without a doubt in my mind scum and are now trying to cover up your mistake in whatever way possible.

[theplague42]

I voted him earlier, then switched to you b/c of some suspicions. I voted back to him because of the mistaken reads.

If you're not an alt, then you must have ungodly amounts of time online. It seems like you've read the entire wiki plus multiple full-length games. What job allows that much time online?

Preview edit: Mute, I think "rules" applies to all of Drench's starting posts. The roles are available to everyone in this and other open-type games, so it's info known to everyone. If you feel the need, put out a request to the possible cop to investigate him. The cop may or may not listen, but it's better than accusing him of being scum when most of your argument fell through the floorboards.

[theplague42]

Mute's last post smells of badly executed bussing to me.

[Workdawg]

Here are my thoughts on Mute (aside from all the crap about the table):

@Mute from Preview

As far as throwing down the hammer... I guess I'm a little bit anxious since it's my first game. As you can tell, I'm pretty active online and the idea of waiting 2 weeks to learn any concrete information as craziness to me. If I set myself up as a target for Day2, then I guess we'll see what happens.

To be fair I was posting a response to Stels when you and nacho ninja'd in. =P
Now then on topic:
I understand being anxious and wanting the game to progress. It would do so on it's own. Being in a rush like that is not helpful. Frankly, I feel that you are scum and were bussing your partner. If Ty turns up mafia that suspicion will be furthered by me. If Ty flips town you will still look scummy for being an eager-beaver.

This was addressed by Nacho already, partially... see below:

[quote="Mute in #61]EDIT::

Mute, why do you think Workdawg would try to hammer his scumbuddy?

Bad newbie-scum play.[/quote]

I mean, seriously? I'm bussing my partner (which according to the glossary mean's that I'm trying to distance myself from him so that if he flips scum, people don't think I am scum because I'm his buddy) by actually trying to lynch him? As I mentioned before, I've made a pretty bad mistake in this game, but holy cow scum lynching scum would be something even more epic.

I seriously hate RQS, since they can basically be used against you, plus you're the only one who benefits from it, although it doesn't help you determine alignment in any way. I see no reason not to answer though so:

Anything you say can and will be used against you, RQS or not. My question to Stels is, why exactly do you care if something is used against you (unless you’re mafia, of course)?

The fact that it allows everyone the chance to write a solid post provides the game and its players with more information.

People saying more things gives others the opportunity to analyze and reason, implying that it actually helps everyone (except the scum), not just me.

It only doesn’t help determine alignment if you don’t want it to. Taking the time to analyze how people respond to the questions or being questioned generally can yield some interesting information which can be used to set a baseline or stored for later.

I would be interested to hear why you think a RVS random vote gleans more useful information than what I have done? It’s expected, it provides almost no information to other players other than who is bad at humor, and generally newbie mistakes render it pointless anyways. Your response would probably be “but Ty, it applies pressure!” Pressure can be applied without silly voting and because it’s so standard any hollow threats are immediately seen through.

However you’ll notice I didn’t say it’s completely worthless because it does have its uses.

For example, you’ll notice that Nachomamma8 voted Naben. This vote is intended to look like

s

he’s involved while actually doing little to further the game. Naben hasn’t confirmed and will most likely be replaced, meaning he isn’t a participant in the game. At first glance this may look like a standard lurker vote, however Neuky had actually confirmed into the game and also hadn’t posted. What would make more sense, voting for someone that has fallen off the face of the planet or voting someone who is in the game but hasn’t posted yet?

As it stands, Nachomamma8 has posted in a manner that raises alarm bells over being suspicious and possibly having ulterior motives, and has not helped the town in anyway whatsoever in her post (besides an unrelated technical issue) with her vote or question. My question to Nachomamma8 would be is there a reason I shouldn’t push for your lynch today based on the various reasons listed above?

I do not like this post.
Firstly, it's long. Needlessly long.
Second, this is in relation to the first segment of bolded text. The entire thing (the bolded portion) is hypocritical. Any information that the town has, the scum has as well. Specifically, the underlined text. This can be used by scum to find people to eliminate during the night to be able to further spread confusion and cause mislynches.
And you're right, questioning does reveal a great deal of information, both of the ones being asked and the ones asking the questions.

Followed by Mute's Response, to Ty's response to him:

Mute

I do not like this post.
Firstly, it's long. Needlessly long.
Second, this is in relation to the first segment of bolded text. The entire thing (the bolded portion) is hypocritical. Any information that the town has, the scum has as well. Specifically, the underlined text. This can be used by scum to find people to eliminate during the night to be able to further spread confusion and cause mislynches.
And you're right, questioning does reveal a great deal of information, both of the ones being asked and the ones asking the questions.

First, I don’t like your post. It’s short, needlessly short.

Let's start with this. There is never a post that can be considered "needlessly short." There's too long which gives plenty of room for ambiguity. Second, the best posts I feel are the ones that are short, sweet, and to the point. The acronym K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid!) is an acronym I apply to my daily life.

See, I can post useless information too!

...wait, am I being attacked with this? Is the information I'm using against you useless, really? To you, perhaps, but to others? I am not at all liking the passive-aggressive and high-and-mighty tone in your posts thus far in-game. Whether or not it's a scum-tell depends on context but I personally hate people who act this way unjustifiably.

Anyways, we’re finally getting to some of the good stuff. This is a continuation of Workdawg’s paragraph from above, and it’s important that everyone read this. Mute, your train of thought in regards to your second statement is very misguided. INFORMATION HELPS THE TOWN. Now repeat that to yourself one hundred times.

I don't like condescension. Not by

anyone

.
I know that, and it's common sense.

In the first quote, Mute expresses concern that TOO much info will be used by the scum to try and pick a lynch target that will cause the most confusion.

In the second quote the bold specifically, he contradicts himself. He claims that it's common sense that information helps the town. If it's common sense, why did he protest it before?

==============

@TP42:

I'm a software developer and we are currently in QA. I've already got my next release scheduled and documents written, right now I don't really have much work to do aside from supporting QA in their efforts. So I sit on my computer and surf the internet.

@Mute:

If you browse the newbie thread, the rules and role PMs are all nearly identical (as far as functionality is concerned). Dredge even credits stealing them from another mod.

[Workdawg]

@TP42

I looked back at your vote for Mute and it was WAY early, it seems like your reasoning back them was that you didn't like the table, is that still the reason?

@Mute

Do you really want to argue the semantics of the rules vs the sample role PMs, which immediately follow the rules? I'm obviously no expert, but splitting hairs in something so irrelevant just to try and reinforce your failed accusation on me seems pretty scumming in itself.

UNVOTE: Ty

VOTE: Mute

[Workdawg]

Triple post... EBWOP...

FFS, I didn't even say the information you are caught up on is in the rules. I did say it's in the sample PMs...

@Dawg: That is still no excuse. You state that scum can post during confirmation, via the rules. That was not found in the rules, it was found in the sample role PM's. You've still slipped up and stated that it was in the rules that you may talk to your scum partner during the confirmation stage. You are without a doubt in my mind scum and are now trying to cover up your mistake in whatever way possible.

6/7. I got that information from the sample role PMs that are posted in post #2 in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote the Mods stuff or not (it says no to PMs for sure, but no mention I see of quoting his posts). But if you read the very first mafia sample role PM, it says very clearly that scum are allowed to talk to eachother at night and during the confirmation stages of the game. I guess if you want to see that as a tell, be my guest. But it's HEAVILY implied in the very rules of this game that it's allowed.

Unless you are referring to the very last sentence, then I guess you can read that as I'm saying it's in the rules, even though I clearly said it was in the sample role PMs.

You are just looking more and more scum to me.

[Nachomamma8]

@Ty: Hmmm. I'll try to put it a different way, then. How would you want me to react? Don't you think it's kind of my job as IC to not let emotions play into things too much and instead play the best game I can? Emotions lead to getting drawn into tunneling and all sorts of bad things, and I've recently learned that's not good for Newbie games at all, even when you're right.

@plague: Yes, it is. But I didn't really have any sort of solid suspicions on anyone at the time, and it's always better to withold giving out your suspects than make some up. Right now though, my top two suspects are Neuky and Ty.

@Workdawg: I unvoted because it was late and you guys are a bunch of crackmonkeys. And if you find this to be valid reasoning, then there's no reason to push the thought of me as scum (because chances are, I'm not). If you don't see that as a valid reason, then bring it up. Making connections this early is a bit of a futile excercise, though. Chances are, you'll be wrong and you might be taking away credibility from an otherwise valid case.
As to my daring Ty to lynch me, I was pointing out that he wouldn't be able to get me lynched as scum. Yes, it's a bit of a challenge, but I'm not telling him to do it if he's town and I'm definitely taunting him quite a bit if he's scum. I feel like there are many things that are fun in a Mafia game, but not too many things are better than talking shit to the other team

On that note, I liked the Mute-Workdawg-Plague argument. That is, until WD voted Mute >.>
TP42 is town, though.

[Stels]

Got some time on my hands left, so before I go off:
@ThePlague:

I voted him earlier, then switched to you b/c of some suspicions. I voted back to him because of the mistaken reads.

This refers to Mute, correct?
Also, how do you know that there is a cop in this game? True, it's one of the setups, but the way you phrased it, it sounds like you know for sure that there's a cop out there... That could mean one or the other >_>
It kind of does seem like bussing to me.

@Mute: Your last post was scummy as hell. You're just trying too damn hard to get Workdawg onto the noose.

@Asano234 & Naben: care to share some outtakes after you're done reading? If you ever do that =/

@Workdawg: You don't seem to get the concept of bussing. Bussing is the scum-art of trying to lynch your partner, or try to at least in order to get town points when your partner gets lynched and he flips scum. What the glossary is saying by "distancing" is probably that you make yourself seem like you don't know that your partner actually is scum until the flip happens, while being one of the people on his wagon. Scum lynching Scum (AKA bussing) is performed in a vast amount of games here. I even remember a game where a Mafia Godfather was forced to lynch his entire team and he won. (Nacho might know who I'm referring to...)

@Drench: Can we get a votecount? Thanks~

Well, good night now...

PEdit: crackmonkeys, ehehe...

[Workdawg]

@Nacho]

Like I said, I was just throwing some crazy thoughts out there.

As far as my vote for Mute, he was my first vote... I changed from him in my anxious "crackmonkey" attempt to hammer Ty. After looking at the rest of his posts since then, I still feel like he's scum, and the evidence has only been mounting against him as far as I'm concerned.

@Mute

You think I'm super scum now, so what's my number? This is the third time I've asked you and you've never given it to me. The first time, I'll assume you didn't notice me ask.

The second time is after the failhammer last night... you said :

Wow dude.
This is the single scummiest thing I've seen from you, so as for your question about where you lie, this post gives me nothing but a scum-vibe.
You say a table which holds no threat to town-aligned scares you, you proceed to hammer a person without giving them a chance to defend themselves (scum opportunistic bussing?), and give no reasons

why

you feel he's suspicious.

EDIT::

EBWOP: I suppose hopping on the bandwagon with the hammer looks scummy. My reasoning is that both his posts have been long on words, but short on anything helpful. There's a lot of junk in there and it seems to me like he's trying to avoid being a lurker, but also avoid suspicion by diverting to Nacho and Stels, the two other experienced players...

is he trying to get them lynched so he can take advantage of all of us poor newbies?!?!?

It looks scummy because it

is

scummy.

But when I asked you about it... you claimed not a single person had gained or lost a point in the standings?

Mute

We went at it over the table for a while. He's responded decently, but I guess I get a funky vibe off how he claims to be playing the game (scum until proven town) and the table in general. I honestly still can't see how the table benefits anyone but scum... ESPECIALLY when everyone starts out as scum in the table. If the idea of scumhunting is to press specific people until you find someone who is scum, then that table seems quite backwards to me. You press them and their number goes down until you decide they are town. If you press them and just get a bunch of null reads, then they are still going to be scum. Or do you consider a null read to be in town favor based on the chances of them being town > being scum.

Another issue I have with the table, and I've expressed it before, is that it seems to just add a bunch of clutter to the thread rather than just saying "I think x and y are scummy, and here is why" If you post the table, I feel like you'd need to post a reason for every single persons standing in the table. I think it would be too easy to manipulate the table to scum advantage.

Lastly, you never told me what my rating is in your table after the events of last night :p

I'll address you points in quick.
>I posted a list of what i felt each number to be. It's the post immediately after I first posted the list. This is pertaining to what numbers I give a person.
>If I post just the person's standing on the table, without saying anything else, I feel I don't have to explain myself. If I am questioned why X is #, I'll respond, as will I do if I present a case to justify X's # on it.
Hopefully we can move past this concern about the table. It does nothing but bog down on scum-hunting.

>As of now the results you see on the table at present are what they are now. After re-thinking, I feel that you were honest in you making a mistake, but I don't discredit the chance of you being scum either. I feel it is less likely in hindsight, but I don't dismiss it.

So what's the story, am I the scummiest of the scum, or am I still on par with every else (except Nacho).

============

Preview Edit:

@Stels

Thanks for the clarification on bussing... not really what I got out of the glossary at all I guess.

[Ty]

AT ALL

Well I do believe this is the post you all have been waiting for! In the first half of the post I will refute the main accusations against me and in the latter half I will provide a detailed description of some of the current players in the game (I’ll post with the other players tomorrow).

It seems that there are three main reasons as to why I’m being voting right now. Let’s get down to business.

Reason 1) My posts are long.

Perhaps it’s the dozen page college papers I write nowadays but I don’t think my posts are really that long. I try to be as thorough as possible to emphasize what I say so that everyone can clearly see and note what I’m doing. But if they bother you, I truly am sorry.

My main concern with this reason is that it’s not really a reason or a scum-tell. Frankly I don’t understand how the length of my posts makes me scum, in fact one would almost argue that it would be to the scum’s advantage to make shorter posts. More writing means more opportunities for a slip that could be potentially harmful. However I would ultimately say it’s a null-tell.

Ironically I was called out for using my posts to lurk. Perhaps this can be explained to me? I assure you if I wanted to lurk I wouldn’t be taking the time and effort to write my posts the way I do (maybe I’d be someone like Neben?).

Reason 2) I am being too much of a “teacher.”

Once again, I feel this is another null-tell. As an SE I’m here to play AS WELL as help you learn the game, right? If I wasn’t answering questions/explaining things on a regular basis I would feel bad for not doing what I’ve agreed to do.

Reason 3) I’ve been tunneling on Nachomamma8

Unsure who was the first to mention this, but this is possibly the most reasonable response I’ve seen to why I’ve been voted. Towards the endgame I would agree that this can be a scumtell as it distracts the town from getting down to business in a life or death situation. However at the beginning of the game especially during Day 1 it’s a useful tool for applying pressure. You like to throw your votes around, I like to make someone uneasy.

Why I’ve been tunneling Nachomamma8 has been simple: I wanted to make sure we didn’t have a scum IC. A scum IC is probably the most detrimental thing the town faces in a Newbie game. The IC wields a large amount of power due to their authority which can be great if they’re town as they can rally new townies to lynch the scum, but it’s incredibly bad when the table is turned. Was I extremely rude and obnoxious to Nachomamma8? Yes I was(sorry ‘bout that, nothing personal ). But do realize there was a method to my madness, and I hope it proves as useful to you as it did to me (also note I did a little of this to Stels as he is the SE).

Nachomamma8

So you’re all probably wondering what my results were on Nachomamma8. To be quite honest, they are much less pro-town as I would have liked.

First of all, I am the IC of the game, and I'm here to teach you a thing or two. If this wasn't true, then you'd be the IC and I'd be the SE. Please keep that in mind when talking to me, and keep the condensending tone (whether intended or not) to a minimum. I won't press the issue, of course, but I found it worth pointing out.

Logical Fallacy #2: Appeal to Authority “I am the IC of the game, therefore I teach you, and you do not teach me.” I don’t recall saying I didn’t/couldn’t learn from you, but you felt the need to say so anyways, making sure to note that you have more power in this game.

Your use of False Dilemmas is incorrect as well. My post was not a false dilemma because I was giving you advice, things you COULD do based on your alignment. A false dilemma would be if I told you things you MUST do.

Logical Fallacy #1: False Dilemma. You clearly state that either I’m a townie not voting you making me look like scum, or if I do vote you I am scum. If you want to call it “advice” as a euphemism, go ahead, but it’s still presenting me with a false dilemma.

Your point that my vote was OMGUS is also correct. OMGUS-voting someone is voting them when the sole reason is "they voted for me", and if you look at my post, I backed up my vote quite well.

You state in Post 43 that “You've failed to explain in your post why not answering your questions has any scum intent behind it. You also failed to answer my question.” as your sole reason for voting me. If failing to answer questions (which you admit to doing in the sentence below) were scummy, shouldn’t you be the scummiest suspect currently playing in the game?

I'm not avoiding your questions; I'm simply refusing to answer them. Some of us hate the RVS, others of us hate the RQS. I, being of the latter type of person, will probably never be found answering Random Questions unless I see merit in them. Your response to my question didn't show merit, thus, refusal.

I like this part of your post because it actually uses strong reasoning and you explain yourself, something I find different than your normal mysterious persona.

You seem to be skimming over my posts.

No way, I love reading everything you write!

I'll also point out that I HAVE been scumhunting this game, and

refuse to provide my top two suspects

because there is absolutely no reason to do such a thing on page three. It's a pretty safe bet that

you're #1, though.

I hope I’m not the only one that noticed Nachomamma8 contradicted himself in the same sentence.

Final Thoughts on Nachomamma8:

Do I have a strong enough suspicion of him to support a lynch? Not at this time, no. However the little things I’ve picked up (the above post being an example) are unsettling to say the least.

Questions for Nachomamma8:

How does you not answering fairly basic question not make you scummy in the eyes of the rest of the players, when you yourself clearly use it as an example of scumminess?

Why isn’t there a reason to release your top two scum list on page three, and why do you immediately release your top scum after saying you weren’t going to?

Neuky

Specifically in regards to your ISO #4 post and to others that have been discussing Mute’s table. I’ve pretty much avoided partaking in that discussion because his table is a null-tell. The only thing out of the ordinary are people’s ridiculously inflated reactions against it. Sure it may not be the best idea, but does keeping a chart/numerical system (which some mafia players do), really make Mute more scummy? I personally don’t think so.

I’m surprised more people haven’t analyzed your ISO #5 post or the voting pattern/times, because I would agree that it seems fairly important.

Just want to add - yes I'm thinking currently of a Dawg / Stels partnership - and I've just seen Dawg's post 77 –

As I was going through the last few pages I actually made a note of the exact same relationship, particularly if Dawg were to be scum. To find this while I ISO’d your posts was a pleasant surprise. I’ll talk about this more when I discuss Stels/Workdawg in my next post.

Final Thoughts on Neuky:

You’re doing a good job kid. Frankly a lot of our thinking is similar, you’re just quieter and less of a jerk than I am. You’re going well with your scumhunting and you are doing a good job picking up on some of the more subtle things. But one thing I’ve noticed is you’ve done a good job staying behind the scenes and below our radars.

Questions for Neuky:

How do you feel about Nachomamma8?

Who besides Workdawg looks scummy on my wagon?

Naben

Hi there Naben, please post with your thoughts as soon as you can. Thanks.

Final Thoughts on Naben:

I wish I had some.

Questions for Nachomamma8:

What are your thoughts on what has happened so far (intentionally broad question)?

Angry Scientist

I’m going to withhold my thoughts and comments about Angry Scientist until his replacement has had a chance to look over the game and post.

Final Thoughts on Angry Scientist:

Will be posted when replacement posts.

Questions for Replacement:

What are your thoughts on what has happened so far (intentially road question)?

[asano234]

hey all this is my first ever game of mafia so go easy on me please. looking forward to talking to you all......I will read and catch up with where the day is at.

[Mute]

Okay...
Taken a while to cool off.
When I tunnel on someone, I do get heated.

@Mute: Your last post was scummy as hell. You're just trying too damn hard to get Workdawg onto the noose.

@Drench: Can we get a votecount? Thanks~

In hindsight, yes it is. I still have no doubt that dawg is scum. I dismissed his accidental near-hammer as a small newbie slip-up with a chance of being a scum-slip. His post which I drilled was a huge alarm for me to find him scummy enough to take my vote off of Ty, my then highest scum-suspect, to him.

also seconding the vote count request.

Preview edit: Mute, I think "rules" applies to all of Drench's starting posts. The roles are available to everyone in this and other open-type games, so it's info known to everyone. If you feel the need, put out a request to the possible cop to investigate him. The cop may or may not listen, but it's better than accusing him of being scum when most of your argument fell through the floorboards.

Of the possible set-ups in this game, only half have a chance to have a cop. It'd be a safe bet to ask that, but I won't. If someone is a PR the

last

thing they need to do is draw attention to themselves.
And if I were to do that, that'd be scummy of me.
How? How would I get the info from the cop if I asked for them if they were here to investigate dawg? (to digress, what's to even say if there is a cop this game, they'd listen to me and not their gut on whom to check? :eyebrow:) If I say that I'd like to hear the cop's results, that's role-fishing, a scum move. If I ask a cop to investigate dawg, that's scummy as well for trying to draw out the cop and put them in danger.
Rule of thumb from my first game here as doc: power roles are the greatest asset to a town. In one of the available F11 set-ups, the town has NO PR's whatsoever.

There is no town-motivation to want to seek a PR this early on in the game. I know you meant good from it by mentioning it, but it's not a good move.


---

@Mute

Do you really want to argue the semantics of the rules vs the sample role PMs, which immediately follow the rules? I'm obviously no expert, but splitting hairs in something so irrelevant just to try and reinforce your failed accusation on me seems pretty scumming in itself.

UNVOTE: Ty

VOTE: Mute

and

As far as my vote for Mute, he was my first vote... I changed from him in my anxious "crackmonkey" attempt to hammer Ty. After looking at the rest of his posts since then, I still feel like he's scum, and the evidence has only been mounting against him as far as I'm concerned.

@Mute

You think I'm super scum now, so what's my number? This is the third time I've asked you and you've never given it to me. The first time, I'll assume you didn't notice me ask.

---
So what's the story, am I the scummiest of the scum, or am I still on par with every else (except Nacho).

I fail to see the irrelevance, so please enlighten me to it.
You said that it is within the rules that scum may contact one another during the night and confirmation stages. I concede you were right in that that is stated within the sample role-PM's. However that does not change I feel you are the scummiest person so far.

As for your rating? Remember when I said both that tunneling on the table, itself a neutral thing as both town and scum can and have used it across this site would bog down on scum hunting, and that "The only reason I can ever see anyone ever asking where they stand to me is if I am accusing them of being scum, using the number I give them as an augment to counter my argument, and do w/e else they would plan to do"?

If you truly wish to see where you fall onto my list so bad:
During my tunnel on you, I rated you a 90, and you were above everyone by a good margin.
Now? 79. Remember that I am not going to post it regularly, nor even give any warning as to when people go up or down it. The points are given by gut feeling, and corrected by evidence used in the game. My gut alone would give you an 84, just in case you're curious.

Am I aware of how scummy this is? Yes. I'm also aware of how this can potentially be used to either A) paint me to be scum by actions alone, or B) to give scum ammunition to push for me to be lynched.

As to whom I feel is dawg's partner? No clue as of yet.

[asano234]

Wow that took a while. Lots of information to try and get my head around. Dawg and Ty seem to head the list of suspects to you all at the moment on first read but i mainly skimmed as i am getting my son ready for school. Personally at the moment being a newbie i have no clue who could be town or skum among you. I will re-read and give some thoughts on where i am at later today.

[Drench]

The Second Vote Count - Broken ohgodrunningoutofpoeticphrasesalreadythisendsnow

theplague42 - 1 - Angry Scientist
Neuky
Mute - 2 - theplague42, Workdawg
Workdawg - 2 - Neuky, Mute
Angry Scientist
Naben
Stels
Ty
Nachomamma8

No Lynch

Not Voting - 4 - Naben, Ty, Nachomamma8, Stels

With nine alive, it's five to lynch!

Day One's deadline expires on the 8th of February at 11:07am AEDST (GMT+11).

Please note that you are more than welcome to quote my

in-thread

posts.

[asano234]

lol shows how wrong and new i am, it is Mute and workdawg in currently the most spectulative topspots at the moment. I am leaning towards workdawg at the moment on the grounds that some of the posts he made implied that he could be mafia. I will read again his posts and may change my mind and wont set my vote yet but i will be looking......

[Workdawg]

In hindsight, yes it is. I still have no doubt that dawg is scum. I dismissed his accidental near-hammer as a small newbie slip-up with a chance of being a scum-slip. His post which I drilled was a huge alarm for me to find him scummy enough to take my vote off of Ty, my then highest scum-suspect, to him.

Is my post, which you "drilled" still a huge tell even though I clearly refuted every point you made? Especially the ones that were my "single greatest scum-tell, slip and exposure" I've made?

@Mute

Do you really want to argue the semantics of the rules vs the sample role PMs, which immediately follow the rules? I'm obviously no expert, but splitting hairs in something so irrelevant just to try and reinforce your failed accusation on me seems pretty scumming in itself.
UNVOTE: Ty

VOTE: Mute

and

As far as my vote for Mute, he was my first vote... I changed from him in my anxious "crackmonkey" attempt to hammer Ty. After looking at the rest of his posts since then, I still feel like he's scum, and the evidence has only been mounting against him as far as I'm concerned.

@Mute

You think I'm super scum now, so what's my number? This is the third time I've asked you and you've never given it to me. The first time, I'll assume you didn't notice me ask.

---
So what's the story, am I the scummiest of the scum, or am I still on par with every else (except Nacho).

I fail to see the irrelevance, so please enlighten me to it.
You said that it is within the rules that scum may contact one another during the night and confirmation stages. I concede you were right in that that is stated within the sample role-PM's. However that does not change I feel you are the scummiest person so far.

About the "scum-tell"

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the entire situation was irrelevant, though I can see how you might read it that way. What I meant by that was; the difference between the rules and the sample role PMs being irrelevant.

If you break down my statements, I think that becomes clear.

@Mute

Do you really want to argue the semantics of the rules vs the sample role PMs, which immediately follow the rules? I'm obviously no expert, but splitting hairs in something so irrelevant just to try and reinforce your failed accusation on me seems pretty scumming in itself.

The first sentence is regarding the difference between the rules and the sample role PMs. That is the subject of the sentence.

The second sentence above is clearly in reference to the first sentence, of which the subject was the difference between those two things. In that statement, no where did I even mention my "scum-tell" or the fact that scum "may be" allowed to communicate with eachother.

I'll agree with you that if that information was not clearly presented in the rules/sample role PMs, that it would be a huge scum-tell... but it very clearly was.

I find the fact that you are still on my case about this and haven't just admitted that you were wrong here to be suspicious. I refuted your entire post, and you are focusing on a tiny detail which you were wrong about in the first place.

As for your rating? Remember when I said both that tunneling on the table, itself a neutral thing as both town and scum can and have used it across this site would bog down on scum hunting, and that "The only reason I can ever see anyone ever asking where they stand to me is if I am accusing them of being scum, using the number I give them as an augment to counter my argument, and do w/e else they would plan to do"?

If you truly wish to see where you fall onto my list so bad:
During my tunnel on you, I rated you a 90, and you were above everyone by a good margin.
Now? 79. Remember that I am not going to post it regularly, nor even give any warning as to when people go up or down it. The points are given by gut feeling, and corrected by evidence used in the game. My gut alone would give you an 84, just in case you're curious.

Am I aware of how scummy this is? Yes. I'm also aware of how this can potentially be used to either A) paint me to be scum by actions alone, or B) to give scum ammunition to push for me to be lynched.

As to whom I feel is dawg's partner? No clue as of yet.

On the topic of my rating/the table

The reason I keep persuing this is because I disagree with you on whether the table is neutral. Just because it's been used by both scum and town before doesn't mean ANYTHING in this game. All it serves to do is prove that it can be a scum tool. It can be a town tool as well, but as far as I'm concerned, you haven't defended it well enough at all to make me think that.

I disagree with your statement that tunneling on the table will bog down scum hunting. Obviously I'm suspicious of you, so this is my scum-hunting. Pressing you until you break on it, or at least put up some kind of decent defense to it.

Why do I keep asking for my rating? Simply because you've said a few times that if anyone asked, you would be glad to tell them their rating... yet when I asked, you just dodged the question up until now.

Specifically on your above comments

This seems just like another case of you claiming the scum will try and use it against you. Why do you keep using that as your defense? If the only thing the table is doing for you is giving scum something to use against you, then why did you/are you using it.

Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town.

The more discussion there is about this, the more it just seems to me that all you've done is try and tell people what they want to hear about the table.

[Mute]

Specifically on your above comments

This seems just like another case of you claiming the scum will try and use it against you. Why do you keep using that as your defense? If the only thing the table is doing for you is giving scum something to use against you, then why did you/are you using it.

Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town.

The more discussion there is about this, the more it just seems to me that all you've done is try and tell people what they want to hear about the table.

Wrong, I tell whomever asks what purpose it serves, and have done nothing but. So far, only you and neuky have been the most vocal against it, and nearly everyone else feels it's either insignificant or a null-tell. If you feel nothing but a contempt for it, feel that I am scum for using a table to give a numerical rating of the players, constantly use it as a way to undermine any shot of scum-hunting, say that your case against me is because I have a bad case against you, and have placed what I feel is an OMGUS vote on me, that with everything else continually gives me an impression that you're scum.

Why do I keep using it as my defense? Town-players will dismiss a needless table which is majorly opinion-driven as needless fluff and rely on solid evidence; scum players will use whatever arguments they can to push to get the town lynched.

"Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town."
Maybe you can outline for me what exactly the table has done that is anti-town so far? That'd help.

Quite frankly, I am tired of having it brought up. I have yet to say in my argument against you "you have a score of # on my table, so I feel you're scum," I've only used your posts this game. I held off giving you your score for that fact. It is not the basis of my argument, nor will it be, as I said when I first posted the table this game.
Specifically:

If you do not like where you fall on my grid, remember that A) this is a grid I am using for MYSELF, and this does not and should not influence anyone; if you feel someone is scum vote for them on the basis of

your

own reads, and B) I feel your play is worthy of either a high or a low score.

This is in all honesty an experiment on my part on using a number-based system to keep track of scum suspicions. I do not expect it to be perfect and the amounts will fluctuate with my whim.

I will not rely on it alone to lynch anyone I feel is scum, merely as a way to keep track and augment my arguments and such.

If at all you'd like to see where you fall at any time, just ask.

That I have seen fit to give you that number based on your play is why I am so set on you being scum.

[Workdawg]

You're doing nothing to help your case as far as I'm concerned. You constantly regurgitate the same junk arguments over it. I never said you were scum for using the table.

I'm a bit concerned about Mute's table as well. You say

this is a grid I am using for MYSELF, and this does not and should not influence anyone

but it WILL influence other people in one way or another. Is it scummy to attempt to draw attention to everyone else in a fancy looking list?

I asked if posting a bunch of useless information in a fancy list to attempt to distract people could be considered scummy. Once again, my reply quoted above was the post #25/#26 situation that I addressed with Nacho before. In post 25, you decided to tell us that you weren't going to post it that often. When I posted #26, I had not yet read your post, as I was still writing from before. The questioning of the scummyness was based on the thought that you would be posting the table frequently, but my vote was not. If you read post #29, which is my actual reaction to your further comments about the table (post 25), you will see my logic behind that original vote (and notice a distinct lack of me saying the table in and of itself, is scummy).

My original vote on you was based on your responses to inquiries about the table.

I'm over the table, you've proven nothing but the ability to say the same thing a few different ways.

The fact that you feel my current vote for you is an OMGUS reaction is just laughable, though. I cast what is arguably the first non-RVS vote in the entire game against you. I changed my vote to Ty in "the failhammer incident (TM)" and based on the discussion that resulted from that, and both his and your responses since then, I've decided that you look more scummy then him. That's why I changed my vote back to you.

[theplague42]

Wall of post incoming. I'm not going to write a summary for the whole thing as I think that it's all important. Any summary would misrepresent what I'm trying to say. Or it could just be a symptom of my bloated ego.

@TP42: I'm a software developer and we are currently in QA. I've already got my next release scheduled and documents written, right now I don't really have much work to do aside from supporting QA in their efforts. So I sit on my computer and surf the internet

Sounds like a pretty awesome job to have right now.

I mean, seriously? I'm bussing my partner (which according to the glossary mean's that I'm trying to distance myself from him so that if he flips scum, people don't think I am scum because I'm his buddy) by actually trying to lynch him? As I mentioned before, I've made a pretty bad mistake in this game, but holy cow scum lynching scum would be something even more epic

I do think this would be rare to happen in a game with only two scum. With three scum, the risk isn't as great. In this setup, the chance that someone would see through the bussing is just too risky. The risk of bus-lynching one of only two scum (especially on the first day) outweights any WIFOM (see below) benefits. In later days, however, since the town is usually closer to find scum anyways, bussing seems like it would be much more possible.

WIFOM explanation: We would think that scum wouldn't lynch scum, as its too risky when there are only two of them. But then again, the scum would know this, so would happily lynch their partner. But we know that they may be thinking that, so we would think they were bussing. Etc etc.

@TP42 I looked back at your vote for Mute and it was WAY early, it seems like your reasoning back them was that you didn't like the table, is that still the reason

My vote for him was mainly because my OMGUS argument (avoiding it, that is) was torn down by Angry Scientist. So now I'm just going back to him after you crushed my hopes and dreams of you being scum.

I'm torn about the table. It all depends on how its being used.I don't think that it hurts the town to have your scum/town reads posted regularly. Otherwise information is just denied to each other. I don't particularly like, however, his method of only posting either before he dies or when someone asks for that. As a townie, I would post it as much as possible. Scum are not actually looking for tells, correct? They only do that as cover. Therefore, a scum-player could randomly throw in some numbers without any real reasoning and say "these are my suspects." I agree with this:
[quote+"Nachomamma8"]@plague: Yes, it is. But I didn't really have any sort of solid suspicions on anyone at the time, and it's always better to withold giving out your suspects than make some up. Right now though, my top two suspects are Neuky and Ty[/quote] in that only scum have to make up suspects. The non-regular and non-explanation method of posting the table is inherently beneficial to a scum-player who wants to appear to be scumhunting.

Argument against this: "But scum-players still scumhunt and genuinely try to lynch scummy players!" Yes, they do. For two reasons: 1. because scummy players are easier to mislynch (especially without drawing suspicion), and 2. they are blending in with the town. The genuine scumhunting is only genuine because townie's scumhunting is genuine.

tl,dr: The table is fine, but I don't like how Mute claims he will be using it. Without regular explanations, it seems like it would be an excellent way to throw suspicion on someone without real reasons.

Preview edit: Mute, I think "rules" applies to all of Drench's starting posts. The roles are available to everyone in this and other open-type games, so it's info known to everyone. If you feel the need, put out a request to the possible cop to investigate him. The cop may or may not listen, but it's better than accusing him of being scum when most of your argument fell through the floorboards.

Of the possible set-ups in this game, only half have a chance to have a cop. It'd be a safe bet to ask that, but I won't. If someone is a PR the

last

thing they need to do is draw attention to themselves.
And if I were to do that, that'd be scummy of me.
How? How would I get the info from the cop if I asked for them if they were here to investigate dawg? (to digress, what's to even say if there is a cop this game, they'd listen to me and not their gut on whom to check? :eyebrow:) If I say that I'd like to hear the cop's results, that's role-fishing, a scum move. If I ask a cop to investigate dawg, that's scummy as well for trying to draw out the cop and put them in danger.
Rule of thumb from my first game here as doc: power roles are the greatest asset to a town. In one of the available F11 set-ups, the town has NO PR's whatsoever.

There is no town-motivation to want to seek a PR this early on in the game. I know you meant good from it by mentioning it, but it's not a good move.

The PR-less setup's odds are only 1:3. Chances are that there's a town PR out there, maybe two. Yes, the cop would probably ignore you. I already said that. And I would say that 50% is a good enough chance to throw out a request.
As to your rolefishing claim, let me present a situation. Cop investigates someone N1. That someone gets a guilty verdict. Now we know that there are no sanity issues or GFs in this setup, yes? So that someone would definitely be scum. The cop claims and presents his guilty verdict. There is no counterclaim. That person gets lynched, and the cop gets either NK'd or RB'd.
If its an NK, then the trade is 3 townies for 1 scum, leaving a 4:1 split. The chances of a successful (even random) lynch of the remaining scum is pretty high. Once it gets down to 2:1, there is a 66.6% chance of a successful lynch, much higher than if the cop would try to push the lynch w/o claiming, especially if that person looked townie otherwise. I wish I could have those odds in Vegas.
If there's a both a cop and an RB, then there's also a doc, right? So now the scum would probably RB the cop, as the doc may protect him, making an RB useless. Therefore, their RB is tied up on the cop until they either NK him or they find the doc. This situation isn't quite as good for the town, but it's still better than the back-to-back mislynches that would probably happen if the cop tried to push the lynch himself.

@all

Can someone quickly explain how to do the math for those probabilities? I can never figure it out when the events are in sequence like that, even though they're independent as all townies are considered the same in this.

If you truly wish to see where you fall onto my list so bad:
During my tunnel on you, I rated you a 90, and you were above everyone by a good margin.
Now? 79. Remember that I am not going to post it regularly, nor even give any warning as to when people go up or down it. The points are given by gut feeling, and corrected by evidence used in the game. My gut alone would give you an 84, just in case you're curious.

Mute is now throwing out numbers willy-nilly. His 55 on Nacho has already proven to be false. And I think that 90 is way too high to be considered "normal" this early in the game. I really haven't seen too much from Workdawg that I consider super scummy. Combine that with his golden defense to Mute's 7 points, and I'm inclined to rate Workdawg as a null-tell right now. Also, look at Mute's last number. Apparently, his gut can do math, as he rates Workdawg an 84

by gut alone.

Not a nice, round number like 80, 85, or 90. His gut can pinpoint numbers to the single digits! Maybe he's impersonating Mark Harmon.

Wrong, I tell whomever asks what purpose it serves, and have done nothing but. So far, only you and neuky have been the most vocal against it, and nearly everyone else feels it's either insignificant or a null-tell.

snip

Why do I keep using it as my defense? Town-players will dismiss a needless table which is majorly opinion-driven as needless fluff and rely on solid evidence; scum players will use whatever arguments they can to push to get the town lynched.
"Maybe you can outline for me what exactly your grid has done so far that is pro-town."
Maybe you can outline for me what exactly the table has done that is anti-town so far? That'd help.

Opinion-driven claim: Do tell, what

else

is there to scumhunt besides opinions? It's not like we can put someone's posts in a mass spectrometer and say, "Yep, that post has 17% town and 83% scum! Lynch him!" Any and all "solid evidence" is

always

going to be based on one person's opinion. When anyone says "solid reason," they almost always mean something that they

think

is inherently scummy. The difference between your "opinions" in the table and most other's "opinions" is that your "opinions" have nothing to back them up. The only way you can do that is to be proactive and post it regularly, with detailed explanations for each and every point you add or deduct. Waiting for people to ask is lurky.

Whatever arguments claim: Yes, they will. No, they won't. They will indeed use any and every argument to lynch town, but any superfluous arguments that lack in depth will be considered scummy. If scum help to lynch someone scummy, are they directly hurting the town? Yes and no. They are definitely blending in, but they create a best-worse-case-scenario. Your job is to find out who is either attacking too vehemently without good reason (bussing) or who is blatantly defending a scummy person (helping out their scumbuddy).

Snappy response to a perfectly reasonable question: Someone's defensive! For pro-town vs. anti-town, I do believe in absolutes. Pro-town gives more content to read, more arguments to discuss, more people to lynch! Anything that either detracts from that or doesn't add anything while saying something is inherently anti-town. It's not necessarily scummy, but it doesn't help the town regardless.

Mute, you seem to be regarding scum's thinking as different than townie's thinking. They are trying for separate goals, but both are doing the same thing (for different reasons obviously). Both want to construct fat, well though-out, and persuasive arguments on why someone is scummy and should be lynched. The town is doing it to find scum, and the scum is doing it to appear town.

@Nachomamma8

On that note, I liked the Mute-Workdawg-Plague argument. That is, until WD voted Mute >.>
TP42 is town, though.

I'm a little confused. Which side of the argument do you like?

[theplague42]

Wow that took a while. Lots of information to try and get my head around. Dawg and Ty seem to head the list of suspects to you all at the moment on first read but i mainly skimmed as i am getting my son ready for school. Personally at the moment being a newbie i have no clue who could be town or skum among you. I will re-read and give some thoughts on where i am at later today.

lol shows how wrong and new i am, it is Mute and workdawg in currently the most spectulative topspots at the moment. I am leaning towards workdawg at the moment on the grounds that some of the posts he made implied that he could be mafia. I will read again his posts and may change my mind and wont set my vote yet but i will be looking......

Good to have you with us. Actually, you weren't too far off. Ty had the most suspicion earlier, but all four people unvoted him after the "accidental" pseudo-quickhammer. Also, you can use

FoS: playername

(stands for Finger of Suspicion) to point out anything particularly scummy, just underneath enough suspicion for a vote. If you either vote or FoS, please quote the specific post (or at least put the post number if the post is obscenely long) and give a reason for your suspicion.

[Mute]

This is just off the top of my head, but, it took Naben how long to confirm, and he's yet to even post a "Hi guys sorry I was so slow," or anything?
I don't wanna sound like I'm sidestepping the Dawg-Plague-Me back and forth, but where is the guy?

[Neuky]

As I was going through the last few pages I actually made a note of the exact same relationship, particularly if Dawg were to be scum. To find this while I ISO’d your posts was a pleasant surprise. I’ll talk about this more when I discuss Stels/Workdawg in my next post.

Final Thoughts on Neuky:

You’re doing a good job kid. Frankly a lot of our thinking is similar, you’re just quieter and less of a jerk than I am. You’re going well with your scumhunting and you are doing a good job picking up on some of the more subtle things. But one thing I’ve noticed is you’ve done a good job staying behind the scenes and below our radars.

Questions for Neuky:

1. How do you feel about Nachomamma8?
2. Who besides Workdawg looks scummy on my wagon?

Thanks for the encouragement,
I'm keeping this short as a: I'm just back from the pub, and b.

please replace knobbin mod

I didn't see the reason for the wagon at all - which puts me and other neutral players (neutral about Ty) at an advantage to look at that wagon I'd hope.
regardless of neutrality - @Town on and off the wagon please look at this and the actual wagon, and have a think about how this could help us.

1. Nacho is a bit of a wifom conundrum to me. I would expect more from an IC in terms of sheer scum-hunting - I've read IC's on town sides like Zacheruz and Glados, and they've really destroyed scum, but who knows? Nacho may have a different style. The only one who knows him well is Stels, who I don't trust at the moment. I was genuinely surprised at his lack of reaction to the Dawg pseudo-hammer, considering he was on the wagon, and then removed his vote with the words:

Good catch, Angry Scientist.

(Hmm.. he really thought that was a hammer?)

Unvote for now, then. Just in case the guy who didn't confirm yet is one of those "overanxious newbies".

Again, my gut says - ew..

At this moment, I'm inclined to think Workdawg is town. Most scum quickhammers are votes that aren't explained very well, and when confronted, they end up giving an "I didn't see the votecount" excuse, instead of announcing that they're throwing down the hammer. That being said, I am not ready in any case for the day to end, so I'd recommend that no one else try to quickhammer.

uck, again, who knows what a noob scum is thinking? I actually thought that was not a bad move from Dawg if he was scum who thought he was hammering, it hasen't given him a wagon, let alone lynched (and that was a fail hammer). Surely our IC would see that too?

Now that's said I think he said the best thing in this game so far:

@Workdawg: I unvoted because it was late and you guys are a bunch of crackmonkeys.

What's not to like about that comment? It's how I've felt whenever I log on to this game...

I've not yet done the iso on Stels that I promised, but I have tomorrow off - so I'll do that tomorrow and post - sorry for the sub standard post, but I felt you deserved something.

Re -the wagon - My problem with Dawg is a sort of compliment in that my gut is saying that Dawg might indeed be jst a bit of a reckless noob town, but some of the things he comes out with don't ring as newbie (he does seem well informed - I can judge that quite well as I'm about the same level as him in experience). I haven't done the Stels ISO yet, but this may change my perception of the wagon. You know, I'm aware that my vote has been on Dawg since day one (my 1st real vote after mute's rvs) but I don't feel I'm tunnelling, and I won't change this vote until I see someone scummier.

Have a good night peeps

[Neuky]

Hmm... just read my post and I think I should do a Nacho iso too - as I never really addressed the wifom feeling I get with him - so consider it on order - I'll try and get both bits of analysis up by saturday.