Mafia 1114: Jim's Mafia - Game OVER!!!!

[RobCapone]

Agreeing with a good case (on someone who then flips scum) is now a scum tell??? I posted my input and reads and kept some to myself, as others did. I rethought my own reads as a result of other people's cases and found these players scummy. You seem to be trying to imply I've just town-followed the whole game... I agreed with a town case, and you are trying to sum up my entire play with this one act. You could say the same thing about countless people in this game.

No agreeing with a good case on someone who flips scum is not a scumm tell but you not adding anything to it can be, especially if you bussed your partner (no idea if it's true) but you have yet to make a case on anyone and sheeping can be a scum tell

[RobCapone]

@DP

As I said yesterday I find it odd that you defend Javert
Stop the reaction fishing gambit on Magnus
Only to have Magnus vote you

You say his vote seems town motivated but mine doesn't?

Really man, all I'm doing is pointing out things I see from my perspective and explaining them so others see it too

Clearly you 3 can't be a scum group, but out of the 3, I feel your play was least town motivated.

Javert's gambit could have worked or not - we won't know because of you
Magnus's reaction could have helped figure things out - we won't know cause of you

[Oso]

@Oso: That post is just my opinion on the topic of lurking, and lynching people who lurk. There are situations where a lurker lynch on day 1 is optimal.

That's all I was pointing out, my person beliefs, it's really more MD, so I'm not sure why you are voting me over a MD topic rather than actual game-related content. The timing of it was just because it had been brought up by Rob, suddenly suggesting a lurker lynch with 3-4 days left to deadline wasn't going to be a popular option, so I decided to bring it up sooner,

that given the circumstances, it could be an optimal day 1 lynch.
...

That's just it, I don't think it is (the bold part that is). Much like what you point about about two players(RobCapone and manutdforev10) here:

Why are our 2 recent posters answering useless questions, but ignoring relevent discussion (the current wagon)??
..

Obviously, you weren't ignoring relevant discussion or answering useless questions in your post but it is similar to Rob's and manut's in that it doesn't belong where it is at. Their posts are a minor example, yours is a major example. Best way I can describe it is counting the first 10 numbers and seeing this..."1,2,3,4,5,6,

43

,7,8,9,10".

The post, by itself, is valid. Just doesn't make any sense or belong where it's at. So, by my way of thinking, you're trying to log my vote off simply as "

...so I'm not sure why you are voting me over a MD topic rather than actual game-related content.

" is an outright deflection.

I'll tie in all my suspicions of you when I post later tonight after work, eating, ect., and show exactly why I think that is a deliberate deflection rather than what you stated it was.

[petroleumjelly]

This post belongs to Javert; the rest of this post is unedited, I just added this at the top for clarity's sake. --jim

If you are going to accuse me of ignoring your questions, I can do the same to you because in my post 160 I ask you to post a condensed case on Ice and you never did.

I felt your question did not deserve an answer (especially since you had not answered my question from Post 151). Scum can be caught using one post; you do not need a multitude of posts or a pattern to catch scum. Post 47 is, in my opinion, one of those rare posts that is enough for me to push a lynch on alone. Your question itself both implies that (i) one post is not enough to catch scum, and (ii) I was not being condensed enough. Not only is one post sufficient to catch scum, but my Post 148 is about as condensed as a case can possibly get.

Second, you had just asked me (essentially) the same question: what is “SO BAD” ICEninja? And I had already responded to that in Post 138 – also in a “condensed” manner.

So when you then asked me for a “condensed case” on ICEninja, I felt you were just dragging your feet and being purposefully obstinate. I was already being short and to the point about ICEninja,

and

other players were making cases against ICEninja (see, e.g., edgerobin, HumblePoirot, Oso). That’s a fairly strong indicator that you were not only turning a blind eye to my case, but to the ICEninja case as a whole.

I will take note that you are ignoring a very strong case on David Parker, I just skimmed your posts and you have yet to comment on anything I have said about David's play and given he defended you early on for no reason what so ever, to me just makes me more skeptical of your relationship in this game.

Actually, I directly commented on the DavidParker “case” in Post 145.

So today David votes me but doesn't give a reason, hasn't really even attempted to make a case on me, and Javert follows him

I called you out as a probable scum-partner for ICEninja on Day One; my vote on you has nothing to do with DavidParker’s vote. But nice try.

The case on you is largely based on the obliviousness (and constant questioning) you seem to show towards the possibility of ICEninja being scum, which is particularly absurd given that

multiple

players in the game were making cases against ICEninja. Furthermore, I felt that in the midst of the ICEninja wagon, you were pushing a DavidParker based on bad reasons (as I explained above in Post 145). This is enough to vote for you right now.

[Javert]

^ That post is mine ^

[RobCapone]

When I get to a computer I'll respond to your recent post Javert

I will add that your comment about my case on DP seemed more dismissive because you were locked on Ice, post 181 definitely cleans up my case better than my earlier one which essentially echos the same reasons


But like i said, later tonight I'll respond more later.

[RobCapone]

Oh one more thing

Just cause we have a wagon going on somebody doesn't mean you should stop scum hunting.

[Edgerobin]

@DP: it was not a vote. It was a way to say that Rob was getting scumpoints because of that post... I guess I am not doing a great job at keeping my alt hidden...

Javert's gambit could have worked or not - we won't know because of you
Magnus's reaction could have helped figure things out - we won't know cause of you

So you basically believe that the test by Javert was a genuine reaction-test. If so, wouldn't the implication be that a hypothetical scum-DP, who ruined the gambit, was protecting the target of the test.
Instead, you seem to be concentrated on a connection between Javert and DP.
Could you please comment on this?

[RobCapone]

1. Given I don't know j's alignment so can't tell if it was genuine or not but it seemed like it to me
2. He ruined it by defending J for the votes he got from it and explained what it was to prevent a reaction from Magnus
3. The defense of Javert is more suspect than ruining the reaction fish, but DP getting voted by Magnus instead of Magnus voting someone else seems quite odd as well.

That's why I put DP highest on my list because if there is a relationship it is between DP and someone else. Now I'm not saying I am 100% completely sure but based on my reads I'm fine with a DP lynch, knowing that if he flips town I'm going to be in a heap of trouble but it's a risk I'm willing to take cause that is how sure I am. Javert was so sure yesterday about Ice, that is how I feel about DP.

[Javert]

Why are you trying to connect DavidParker to magnus_orion and myself when we have a confirmed dead scum, ICEninja? I think this is really the point of edgerobin's post. If you are trying to connect somebody to anybody, it should be ICEninja.

[DavidParker]

That's why I put DP highest on my list because if there is a relationship it is between DP and someone else. Now I'm not saying I am 100% completely sure but based on my reads I'm fine with a DP lynch, knowing that if he flips town I'm going to be in a heap of trouble but it's a risk I'm willing to take cause that is how sure I am. Javert was so sure yesterday about Ice, that is how I feel about DP.

Oh since Javert was as sure as you are now and Javert was clearly right, clearly people should go on this feeling (Sadly, black eyed peas came into my head at this point) of yours because you tell us it's as clear to you I'm scum as it was to Javert that Ice was scum. Clearly.

[RobCapone]

Why are you trying to connect DavidParker to magnus_orion and myself when we have a confirmed dead scum, ICEninja? I think this is really the point of edgerobin's post. If you are trying to connect somebody to anybody, it should be ICEninja.

Despite what you guys say, I'm pretty sure we have 2 mafia groups based on what Ice said, based on the "knife mafia" which if there was just 1 it would say mafia (having played in a 2 mafia setup on site it seemed familiar), and based on Jim's multiple posts in the open setup review thread, I don't beleive it ever got approved so he could easily run it as a closed


Anyway a common mafia trick is to buddy up to town people to reduce suspicion, if Javert is town than DP has successfully done this

Not so much to Magnus except he calls magnus's case "town motivated" and isn't mad at him

Third- it's clear looking at the timeline of his posts David finds ice more scummy as the wagon gets bigger, he asks how many votes ice has and later asks for a vote count. If all of these good cases had been so good why did he not vote sooner?

You guys want to ignore the 2 mafia cause we only have one body, fine but DPs reaction to the Ice wagon is also suspicious.

Saying that he didn't make a case cause others were made already is a copout

P. Edit - I trust town will make their own mind, I'm not bullying anyone to follow me, the info I post is clear cut, you either agree or disagree

[DavidParker]

It sounds like even you don't believe your case on me...

[RobCapone]

I have learned that bullying people to follow me never works, I have games that support that. I have sought advice on how to improve my play and that was one thing mentioned

I feel 100% confident my case is valid if people want to point it my flaws, feel free but I am not changing my vote right now unless somebody does something worse than you. I have others I'm watching also taking notes but for now I'm good.

[DavidParker]

Oh yeah, I have no intent in more back and forths with you, as it's not me you should be even trying to convince, it's the others you have to convince I'm scum. I'm not entirely sold on your case, but at this point it is the most appealing, the absence of a few players at this point is troubling though, as one of them I find highly suspicious.

[Mute]

Despite what you guys say, I'm pretty sure we have 2 mafia groups based on what Ice said, based on the "knife mafia" which if there was just 1 it would say mafia (having played in a 2 mafia setup on site it seemed familiar), and based on Jim's multiple posts in the open setup review thread, I don't beleive it ever got approved so he could easily run it as a closed

ICE was a knife-goon; Humble was stabbed by a knife. There was only a knife kill.
Conclusion: there is more than likely no second mafia and ICE was talking lies.

Third- it's clear looking at the timeline of his posts David finds ice more scummy as the wagon gets bigger, he asks how many votes ice has and later asks for a vote count. If all of these good cases had been so good why did he not vote sooner?

You guys want to ignore the 2 mafia cause we only have one body, fine but DPs reaction to the Ice wagon is

I don't think that using a timeline of the games progression as a case against Dave is valid. As more people post it'd make more sense than not for a person to become more suspect as more people and more posts are made against them.

[DavidParker]

I don't think you are right in concluding what you have concluded. It is too soon to tell. Similarly, there is no need to even discuss the possibility of a second mafia group. If there is one, they lost out for not night-killing last night (if that's what they chose).

[RobCapone]

Why do you assume they chose to NK?
@ mute - the timeline, fence sitting between you and ice, and not adding any of his own reasons (even if it's somebody else's reasons in his own words) adds up to suspicious activity

His quick defense of Javert added in
And as stated by someone else, with plenty of content going on DP switches topics to advocate lynching lurkers if we get close to deadline, which gives him an out later if he needs one

[RobCapone]

If you are going to accuse me of ignoring your questions, I can do the same to you because in my post 160 I ask you to post a condensed case on Ice and you never did.

I felt your question did not deserve an answer (especially since you had not answered my question from Post 151). Scum can be caught using one post; you do not need a multitude of posts or a pattern to catch scum. Post 47 is, in my opinion, one of those rare posts that is enough for me to push a lynch on alone. Your question itself both implies that (i) one post is not enough to catch scum, and (ii) I was not being condensed enough. Not only is one post sufficient to catch scum, but my Post 148 is about as condensed as a case can possibly get.

Second, you had just asked me (essentially) the same question: what is “SO BAD” ICEninja? And I had already responded to that in Post 138 – also in a “condensed” manner.

So when you then asked me for a “condensed case” on ICEninja, I felt you were just dragging your feet and being purposefully obstinate. I was already being short and to the point about ICEninja,

and

other players were making cases against ICEninja (see, e.g., edgerobin, HumblePoirot, Oso). That’s a fairly strong indicator that you were not only turning a blind eye to my case, but to the ICEninja case as a whole.

I will take note that you are ignoring a very strong case on David Parker, I just skimmed your posts and you have yet to comment on anything I have said about David's play and given he defended you early on for no reason what so ever, to me just makes me more skeptical of your relationship in this game.

Actually, I directly commented on the DavidParker “case” in Post 145.

So today David votes me but doesn't give a reason, hasn't really even attempted to make a case on me, and Javert follows him

I called you out as a probable scum-partner for ICEninja on Day One; my vote on you has nothing to do with DavidParker’s vote. But nice try.

The case on you is largely based on the obliviousness (and constant questioning) you seem to show towards the possibility of ICEninja being scum, which is particularly absurd given that

multiple

players in the game were making cases against ICEninja. Furthermore, I felt that in the midst of the ICEninja wagon, you were pushing a DavidParker based on bad reasons (as I explained above in Post 145). This is enough to vote for you right now.

ok see if I can do this real fast before bowling

1. the odds of 1 post being enough to know somebody is scum is very rare, but I guess it is possible, although I can't ever remember any single post that makes me go OMG I am 100% sure he is scum, unless he slips HUGE and that one post wasn't a huge scum slip.

2. your post 148 was referring to that one post, which is also the post that I agreed with your assessment, I didn't feel that 1 post was enough to lynch him. I started to read through and I kept getting distracted by David so I pointed out his multitude of posts

3. your response to my "what is so bad about Ice" question was this

RobCapone, what is "so bad" about ICEninja? I think he is lying; and I think he is scum. I read his explanations and I do not believe them.

which is not enough to convince anyone to lynch somebody.

4. as to what I was referring to about the points on Ice, if somebody is going to convince me to change my beliefs and follow them they need to A. tell exactly what this person did that was scummy and B. why that action was scummy. this is how I play, I need more than

I think he is lying; and I think he is scum. I read his explanations and I do not believe them.

5. your comments on DP's case were mostly dismissive. When a player comes in during RVS and declares somebody scum like you did, you deserve all the negative attention you got, and his defending you does warrant a raised eyebrow. Plus I didn't see that as somebody who was acting like an idiot, it looked like you knew exactly what you were doing.

6. yes you called me out as a possible scum partner right after you put your own words inside a quote and made it look like Ice said it (if I was a mod I would have mod-killed you because it is easy for people to mis-understand who actually said it) you have no actual basis for making that accusation other than calling you out for something YOU did that was scummy. I don't care if you put "this is how it reads to me" before it, because I missed that when reading the first time, it was only later that I saw that but I don't even care you can call me whatever you want, doesn't mean it is actually true, cause I can assure you it isn't.

For the record, misquoting another player is not grounds for a modkill. It may not be considered "nice," but there is no rule that explicitly bans it. Enforcement of this code of "only quote correctly" is left to the players, NOT the mod

--jim

and this last part I will adress later when I get home, gotta run now.

The case on you is largely based on the obliviousness (and constant questioning) you seem to show towards the possibility of ICEninja being scum, which is particularly absurd given that multiple players in the game were making cases against ICEninja. Furthermore, I felt that in the midst of the ICEninja wagon, you were pushing a DavidParker based on bad reasons (as I explained above in Post 145). This is enough to vote for you right now.

[Javert]

Unvote: RobCapone, Vote: ConSpiracy

.

[Jerbs]

Mute seems to be a master fencesitter

Also, manutd should be back by now

It seems that in every single post Conspiracy writes, mute is mentioned

Iso 0: Case on mute
Iso 1: cont. case on mute
Iso 2: "@ Mute, why dont i get a response?"
Iso 3:replies to mute
Iso 4:cont. case on mute
Iso 5: tells javert not to ignore the mute case

Tunneling much?

[Mute]

Mute seems to be a master fencesitter

Also, manutd should be back by now

It seems that in every single post Conspiracy writes, mute is mentioned

Iso 0: Case on mute
Iso 1: cont. case on mute
Iso 2: "@ Mute, why dont i get a response?"
Iso 3:replies to mute
Iso 4:cont. case on mute
Iso 5: tells javert not to ignore the mute case

Tunneling much?

I apologize for the lack of any real content in this game, but most of my attention is on my newbie game currently. As it stands now, most of my focus on this game is mostly of the last two pages (e.g. that I can sort of recall from my mind), as well has having stuff to do in real life that takes a lot of my attention away. I'll go back and read through it tonight as I expect to have tomorrow free to do whatever and be able to stay up longer tonight.

[Oso]

Ok since dinner, all I have managed to do on my re-read is basically confuse myself. I'ma try and keep this from becoming a wall, don't know how much luck I'll have.

Claim: Entertainer

(for the purposes of this game that means roleblocker)

I function as a normal roleblocker but have a restriction and a bonus. I can't target the same player two nights in a row but if I block a member of a group,

I block any team abilities they have as well

(whether the person I actually target has any abilities or not). It probably goes without saying but I'll say it anyway: Town wins, I win.

I did block someone last night and yes, I do think it yielded useful information. But I'll get into that at the end of this post. Mainly because I want to get what I think about a DavidParker/ICENinja connection then I'll get into that.

So I'll just get into it.
Unless stated otherwise, these quote are excerpts from David Parker

Post-80: First time he directly mentions ICE as scummy. Before that, David never mentioned ICE except indirectly, as deserving of attention simply because he belonged to a group of three players (myself, Mute and ICENinja) who voted Javert.

..
@Javert: I think that post(#47), on a standalone basis, is probably the scummiest post so far and is definitely not well thought out and is very scummy.

As a whole given the way your wagon occurred and Ice's positioning on it I'd say he is likely scum and would be in my top few picks for a lynch today at this point of the game. However, his response to accusations has been somewhat formidable, although it's much easier to respond to accusations regarding a scummy post than it is to avoid making scumlike-slips in posts.

..
Btw, Unvote. I'm not happy but I'm not unhappy with your input.

Note he unvotes Rob at that point but doesn't re-place his vote on anyone. "...

I'd say he

[ICENinja]

is likely scum and would be in my top few picks for a lynch today at this point of the game.

...indicates to me that he should be placing his vote, onto ICENinja, if he's going to take it off RobCapone.

Post-96. Pretty sure this is in response to Magnus' question to David in Post-93:

David, what's your opinion on ICE?

. (Magnus' question is near the bottom of the Post-93.)

..
@magnus:

I think I've stated I find him quite scummy as he doesn't seem to defend himself very well and I feel the case on him is very solid.

He would be in the top few I would like to see lynched today. I'm still reserving to post some of my other scum suspects at this point while I gather my thoughts.

Another reason he should place his vote on ICENinja (at this point in the game he has no vote out), although he(DP) does state he wants to gather his thoughts on other suspects and post them. But I would like to point out that DP does(sort of) imply in that first quote, that he isn't placing a vote on ICE because his(ICE's) responses are "somewhat formidable" but in the second says that he "doesn't seem to defend himself very well.". Now I'm starting to get the distinct impression that David doesn't want to vote ICENinja no matter how scummy he looks. Just making cover noises.

That brings me to my post earlier today: Post-227. What David tried to log off as my voting him for MD reasons is actually the final nail in his coffin as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to put a quote wall up so here are the relevant posts. Post-179:This is where I give my thoughts on two players, David is the second one, last half of the post. Please note, that even before the ICE flip, I thought that David might have been at least testing the waters to see if he could somehow derail the ICE wagon with some sort of jarring post that would take to spotlight off of ICE. The second, Post-219, is where I ask him about it directly. He tries in the post right after that to deflect, at least in my opinion, the vote by classifying my vote as voting based on an MD point rather than actual evidence in the thread. Well, there you go David. All tied up in a neat little package. You were not making an opinion known, you were desperate to get pressure off your partner and you blinked.

****

That brings up the question though as to why David was getting desperate to save ICE. As town, David would have voted much earlier than he did. He voiced strong suspicions of ICE twice but didn't vote until he had no choice. As scum, David would have happily thrown a partner in that much trouble under a bus unless there is something about scum in this game that is not readily visible. It makes sense (not optimal play, I'll grant that, but defensible play) to at least try and find a way to save your partner if you are about to lose half your team on Day 1.

Which brings me to why I claimed. The way my role works make sense in a multi-group game(plus like I said above, I've confused the hell out of myself and maybe someone can point out something in this post that might help me clarify my thinking) and David's reluctance to vote ICE yesterday only makes sense, to me at least, if there is some overriding factor that would make a scum player deviate so badly from optimal play. David's play yesterday certainly wasn't town in relation to ICE nor is it what I would call "normal" scum play either.

Second reason why I claimed: As I said above, my role makes sense in a multi-group game and David has by his play, in my opinion, and pretty much confirmed in my mind that ICE did believe there are two scum groups, for whatever reason, and he wasn't just poisoning the well. So, if there are indeed two scum groups, my action last night may have had a better than average chance of preventing a second kill than a normal RB would as I can block my target's entire group as well if they are, in fact, in a group. I say

MAY HAVE

because I can think of several other reasons why there would not have been a second kill when I was expecting one. And yes, I even include the fact that I may be completely wrong in everything I have said above.

I'll definitely name my block target by the end of the day, no matter what happens.

Because if turns out there is only one killing group, my block pretty much clears the target. But we have some discussion out on the table now so I'll leave it up to you folks as to when you want another talking point. If you would rather wait until we clear up some of the current stuff under discussion that's fine with me. If you want it now, I'm good with that too.

But no matter what else happens today, you folks

WILL

have the name of the player before the game day ends, I promise.

[Javert]

Tsk. Weren't you a roleblocker variant the

last

time I played with you? A have quite a few questions, but right now I will start with one: If you block a Town power role, would you then block all Town power roles?

I will try to find time later this week to check on a possible DavidParker-ICEninja pairing.

Note

: As I mentioned long ago, I will be V/LA starting tomorrow (Jan. 26) until Sunday (Jan. 30).

[Oso]

As far as I can tell, no. Town (with perhaps the exception of Masons or even Neighbors) are independent of one another so are in no "group" other than generic town.

To be honest though, until you asked, I hadn't thought of it that way. When I saw I blocked the group as well the individual, I auto defaulted to the simplest meaning of that. Mafia, Masons, ect, ect....

And yes I was . When you mis-posted as PJ, that occured to me as well. I was a JailKeeper in that one.