Mini 1117 - Manhattan Special - [GAME OVER]

[Substrike22]

By the way, Grey, I played in the game with CES and Jmurph so I'm well aware of what happened that game. Just because something happens a given # of times doesn't mean it's a reliable tell. There are other games where scum go super-active to avoid being accused of lurking, making proverbial mountains out of other people's molehills. That's what EMP is guilty of right now.

[CrazyQuestions]

By popular petition, I start with Shadow. I continue later.

SHADOW

1. Parrots my words attacking IS in his first post. I read his vote on me as a joke, but mixes a serious criticisms with a fun joke.

Weak

2. He moves into clarifications with me and empty discussions with Empking, including ridiculous extreme arguments like depicting Empking as someone who already found scum in 10 posts. Shadow can perfectly be interested in slow play, but in that case and thinking as I do, where is he trying to get hints or reads? Which players is he targeting or studying?

Weak/Medium

3. When pressured to participate after lurking, he mixes a "defence" of lurking as null-tell with an attack to the player who favours wagoning lurkers (Grey) at the same time that Grey has disfavoured the player with whom Shadow is discussing (Empking). In his last post, he parrots me again as I pointed out in my summary how IS' case is just one observation (that is not even his).

Confusing/Weak

---

EMPKING

1. His initial posts sound like provocations to get reactions. He starts analyzing them (Shadow, Strike), but soon he deviates into uninteresting debates with Shadow that end up in fun references. But he seems to have a reason behind, as the hyperbole thing is what he seems to be doing.

Weakly positive but tending to Confusing

2. He is interested about Grey's participation, votes for strike in a coherent way with his previous observations and the fact he sees me as town and IS as semi-town. The attacks on him are nothing relevant and he attacks shadow later. Though I was feeling that Empking was volatile in voting, he is consistent in the group of players he initially targeted, a small but enough diverse group.

Weakly positive

3. Good observation on Empkings' avoidance. Do not see coaching in his other observation. However, he is pointing out to behaviors and keeping conversations and hints alive. The hyperbole is also accompanied by a moderate behavior without any rush.

Weakly positive/ Medium positive.

CAVEAT: Possible Bias, due to his town read on me and the fact that some of the attacks on him were empty.

[CrazyQuestions]

Your defenders (like Crazy) take on the job of distracting everyone away from you, but that doesnt work with me does it?

Where did I defend Shadow??

[ShadoWolf]

You mad bro?

112%

[Internet Stranger]

Oh wow Shado, youre still not trying to do anything here. Of course im pushing on you. You are sitting there expecting me to excuse scummy behavior. Are you somehow special? Beyond reproach? You see the votes mounting on you and you chose to continue to play your fiddle. Dude, whatever little gambit youre trying to do, isnt working. You were hoping to be Teflon Scum and maybe hope that Crazy comes out to rescue you.

Oh yea, CRAZY! Another extremely suspicious that I keep mentioning but yet you chose to ignore. You are clearly shuffling a deck of lies and trying to spin some sort of card trick defense here. Im not merely tunneling, im pointing out the fact that Shado is scum. Seriously, are you two (Shado, Crazy) being this blatant with the distancing? Shado dont mention Crazy, Crazy doesnt mention Shadow, even after im linking the two together.

Shado is scum, this is pretty easy to see now.
Crazy is very likely a scumbuddy of some sort.

P-Edit: Oh hey, Crazy comes out now trying to correct her behavior. Bravo!

Crazy: By attempting to sabotage all of my very accurate points on Shadow and trying to paint me in a negative light, youre clearly employing the oh so popular Chainsaw Defense mechanism.

[Empking]

EMP, you're a funny little Magikarp. You're seizing every opportunity to attack an easy target that you can. You're not formulating a hard case on anyone. You first voted for the guy who came and voted himself on the first post (stupid, but not necessarily scummy), and then you're voting for lurkers. That's scummy.

1) "every easy opportunity" - The only easy opportunity so far has been Crazy. How did I react to Crazy again?
2) "lurkers" - Plural. Give us some names.
3) "not nercessarily" - Theory differences.
4) "not necessarily scummy" - It was RVS. Talk about leaping at straws.
5) "you're a funny little Magikarp" - ad hom.
6) Ignoring my last post.
7) Just repeating the same bad arguments over and over again.
8) I haven't voted anyone who isn't part of my page 1 proposed scum team. All my votes will be taken in that context by members of the town.
9) "hard case" - Vague term much.
10) "You're not formulating a hard case on anyone." Hypocrite.
11) "You're not formulating a hard case on anyone." Who has?

[GreyICE]

By the way, Grey, I played in the game with CES and Jmurph so I'm well aware of what happened that game. Just because something happens a given # of times doesn't mean it's a reliable tell. There are other games where scum go super-active to avoid being accused of lurking, making proverbial mountains out of other people's molehills. That's what EMP is guilty of right now.

I am aware that scum don't always stay under the radar. But the thing is, it takes lots and lots and lots of skill to make 30 posts day 1, run up wagons, make cases, clear buddies... all while not giving away that every case you're making is hypocritical, because every case you're making is biased by the knowledge of how the flip will turn out. It's like being in a discussion with a reading group about who the killer in an

Agatha Cristie

novel is... when you already read the back of the book and know how it turns out. Then doing it book, after book, after book.

Oh and to make it more complex, your sole goal is to make the group agree that the most likely killer in each book is someone other than the real killer.

Some people can navigate those discussions with ease. Most will trip on their foreknowledge. The safest way to win is... not to play.

Of course percentages mean nothing in individual cases. 75% of lurkers could be scum and if we got a little lucky, we'd have not a single lurker flip scum.

But also, the scum who lurk? Are the scum who are least comfortable that they can navigate the discussion successfully. And they'll trip themselves.

Wanna play the game with me,

Saporo

? See how natural your reads are? See if you can disguise the fact that you know the outcome of every flip? Or see if I'll catch that? See if I'll miss it, and other, better scumhunters will catch it? Come on. That's not fear eating away at you, is it?

[CrazyQuestions]

P-Edit: Oh hey, Crazy comes out now trying to correct her behavior. Bravo!

???? This guy is totally out of mind...

Crazy: By attempting to sabotage all of my very accurate points on Shadow and trying to paint me in a negative light, youre clearly employing the oh so popular Chainsaw Defense mechanism.

You just repeated Erratus' observation, as I mentioned. This does not defend Shadow at all, as I saw him as a parroter at the beginning and I do agree with Erratus in his view. You are hiding in your alpha-ness the fact that you just parroted Erratus...
In my summaries up to now, Strike and Shadow are up in my list, but you are not. However, your alpha-ness is as useless as simo's.

[Substrike22]

Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

[Empking]

Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

1. It was part of the RVS. It was the last post in the RVS.
2. Being technical with words. I could have just as easily replaced "RVS" with "the third post" and it wouldn't change the meaning.

Scummy due to:
3. Its scummy rhetoric because town wouldn't believe it.
4. Not posting in good faith.
5. This is example of fake scumhunting.
6. Cherry picking.

[Erratus Apathos]

Erratus: Appears to be asking questions but I don't necessarily see him scumhunting, as much as finding easy reasons to vote for certain people (shado for not having much content, internet stranger for ignoring him.)

Sapo, you say my votes on shado and IS are easy reasons to vote, but then you turn around and say these:

IS: got super defensive and emotional in his early posts. Also I think Erratus has a point in that he ignored his questions whilst gunning for shado.

Shado: apparently has trouble contributing anything of note amongst all the bickering about genitalia. I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but it seems like he might be profiting from the acrimonious nature of this game thus far, in that it gives him the chance to comment on stuff without taking any action.

Which are the same points I'm making against both of them. So what do you see as the difference between me suspecting them and you suspecting them?

You know why you see me as not scumhunting? Because both Shado and IS are flat out not responding to the cases on them. Shado isn't explaining why he's not scum hunting, and IS isn't answering shit. I'm scum hunting; they're refusing to be hunted.

A) Right, because the scum make an official announcement whenever they are about to do something suspicious. The scum call the press, throw a parade and bring the circus along with them to make an announcement for everyone to see that they are filthy scum.

B) All you

'

re doing is calling for the Brilliant Defense. You expect the evidence to be like CSI level. Unless I come in with DNA, fingerprints, video, eyewitnesses and a signed confession, then any and all suspicious are worthless.

C) It does work that way here. You do scummy actions to draw attention to yourself. In your case its all your scummy inactions. How many more excuses can you come up with to actively not participate Shado? Its kinda hard to slink away and try to hide with me constantly shining that bright light of attention your way isnt it? Your defenders (like Crazy) take on the job of distracting everyone away from you, but that doesnt work with me does it?

D) I

'

m pretty certain that I caught me a scum here. Your actions are doing nothing to dissuade me from my opinion. Therefore, Shado is filthy scum.

A) It'd be nice if it worked that way.
B) I never said that. At all. I'm just saying that you're pushing way too hard for someone who's only accusation is one of active lurking.
C) Excuses? Fuck you.

I think you perceive yourself as this amazing super-detective who's caught the worst serial killer in the world, while actually, you're more like Inspector Clouseau from The Pink Panther. You're a bumbling moron.
D) I'm not scum. (inb4 "lol that's not a defense") You're doing your best to paint every single one of my actions in a negative light. You're tunnelling on me, and you don't talk about anyone else, (and I suspect, won't do until I'm lynched or you're dead)

Now Shado is just resorting to ad hominem.

UNVOTE: Internet Stranger
VOTE: ShadoWolf

[GreyICE]

Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

Sub, is that a "lie?" It's a contradiction, yes, but contradictions aren't necessarily lies. I may vote for a politician, say he's the best choice for office. Six months later I may say that his opponent was a better choice that election. Did I lie the first time? The second time? Or are the two opinions merely contradictory? It is no character flaw to be swayed by evidence and reason.

EMP:

1) What have I done to change your mind?

2) If I have done nothing, which arguments were convincing enough that you changed your mind?

3) How do I currently read?

[Empking]

Grey, you misunderstand. You're still scum its just that when I made my original post my original post it was merely slightly better than random. I call that part of the RVS, myself.

[TheLonging]

CAVEAT: Possible Bias, due to his town read on me

This is where I stopped taking you seriously.

[GreyICE]

Grey, you misunderstand. You're still scum its just that when I made my original post my original post it was merely slightly better than random. I call that part of the RVS, myself.

True randomness is a phenomena that barely exists in this universe. For something to be truly random, it must meet criteria above and beyond those things that we call chance. Random.org uses the later digits readings of noise in the atmosphere picked up by radio. Switzerland has a laboratory that picks up radioactive decay of molecules to achieve true randomness. And even those can't be proven to be truly random. What we call "random" merely means we are not properly inquiring into the reasons.

EMP:

1) What have I done to change your mind on me?

2) If I have done nothing, which arguments were convincing enough that you changed your mind?

3) How do I currently read, and why am I not your vote if I am scum?

[Empking]

1) What have I done to change your mind on me?

My mind has not been changed.

2) If I have done nothing, which arguments were convincing enough that you changed your mind?

My mind has not beehn changed.

3) How do I currently read, and why am I not your vote if I am scum?

Your being scum is condition on Shado being scum.

[CrazyQuestions]

GREYICE

1. Starts the game with a bomb. That was neutral to me at the beginning. The fact that he chooses Pergol sounded to me like a fun/safe option because of non-game issues. However, he suggests later that Pergol is inexperienced and I do not know where he is taking this view from.

Null/Confusing

2. His attacks tend to focus on those players who "favoured" him (calls longing buddier, Shadow lurker), and takes the side of Empking. He does not expose any theory on what he was expecting to happen from his funny thing, which sounds bad. And quickly he moves into lurkers (saporo).

Weak

3. He insists on Lurkers. However, this is an easy path as he could be equally studying those players participating in the thread while at the same time pointing out to lurkers (for instance, asking to mod for prods when time passes). When prompted to "come back" to the game, he points to Empking in a very inconsistent way to his initial views of the game. That is bad because it shows his initial provocation had not any real purpose and he has not thought about its implications. He later claims not to have any view on anybody active since describes Empking as townish.

Weak/Medium

caveat: My views can be biased for an ongoing game.

----

ERRATUS

1. Starts the game questioning actively, and shows later that he follows his questions. Points to Empking in a natural way and turns to Shadow with an accurate observation and to IS for not answering him.

Weak Positive

2. Points to the fact that Grey is not interested in forming wagons. He does not mention how this is especially incoherent with the fact that Grey "prepared a trick to see reactions", but it is a good observation.

Weak Positive

3. I find strange he is attacking Shadow because of his responses to IS. IS is attacking
without any coherence and does not let even answer (and Erratus is suspecting of IS) but all in all, that is:

Confusing

[CrazyQuestions]

CAVEAT: Possible Bias, due to his town read on me

This is where I stopped taking you seriously.

Why? This is useful (at least for me) to check my positions later when Empking may change his position on me. To be aware of your own possible biases can only help you. I just did a caveat, not that I do not take my observations seriously...

[GreyICE]

Expected, Crazy? I expected to be on L-2 with a wagon formed and waiting for me with pointed questions. Would have been interesting, I get soooo much information out of wagons. I'll tip my hand at this point, that was my goal. It's hard to do, because you want to do something that's insane, but not specifically scum (you get much less information out of wagons that are formed because the victim has just been mimicking total scum).

I have no idea why anyone would defend me rather than wait for me to defend myself, my actions can at best be described as 'eccentric.' Which, well... they were

[GreyICE]

Also, well, Pergol. I'm just going to leave it at that, the forum has a search for user's posts feature, and I wanted a response out of him.

[GreyICE]

Oh, and not getting too specific, because I know there's history, but if you do the same thing here as elsewhere, we are having serious, serious words.

[Substrike22]

Vote: Grey

- Caimed scum then redacted it. Not a random vote.

Direct contradiction to point 4 above where you claim it was a part of RVS. You're a liar. Anyone for Lynch All Liars?

1. It was part of the RVS. It was the last post in the RVS.
2. Being technical with words. I could have just as easily replaced "RVS" with "the third post" and it wouldn't change the meaning.

Scummy due to:
3. Its scummy rhetoric because town wouldn't believe it.
4. Not posting in good faith.
5. This is example of fake scumhunting.
6. Cherry picking.

Calling someone on a contradiction is not "fake scumhunting" it's scumhunting. You got caught. It was not part of the RVS because you said it was not a random vote. RVS =

Random Vote

System. If it's not a random vote, it's not RVS.

[el simo]

Mod:

Moving across the country this Monday, not sure when I will be able to get regular activity back, but I should be able to still make the prods.

Just a warning.

[InflatablePie]

D1 Votecount #3

[5] ShadoWolf - Internet Stranger, Empking, TheLonging, el simo, Erratus Apathos
[2] Empking - Midnight's Sorrow, Substrike22
[1] GreyICE - CrazyQuestions
[1] CrazyQuestions - ShadoWolf
[1] saporovirus - GreyICE
[0] Internet Stranger
[0] Pergol
[0] Midnight's Sorrow
[0] Substrike22
[0] TheLonging
[0] Erratus Apathos
[0] ConfidAnon
[0] el simo
[3] Not Voting: saporovirus, Pergol, ConfidAnon

Please point out any possible mistakes. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to No Lynch. The deadline is Saturday, February 12th, at 12PM EST.

Crazy's vote in this post was not counted, due to lack of unvoting, as outlined in Rule 3.

el simo's semi-V/LA is noted. Please let me know if you need to be officially considered V/LA, or replaced, or similar. Hope the move goes well. ^_^

[GreyICE]

@Mod: Please confirm status of Pergol situation. If he's responding to prods, wonderful, that's all I need.