Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[DavidParker]

I was reading the game following my post on JMJ and was raging pretty hard when 3-4 people agreed with me and no one threw down a vote. The ensuing wagon calmed me greatly.

I see JMJ or PI being both good lynches at this point. I see both as very likely to be scum, more so than anyone else (cases on ThAd and stuff just are meh at this point).

[ThAdmiral]

Just finished re-read/skim. ThAd is also scum. I'd be perfectly happy to lynch him as well. I'll post a case if people need it, but it's pretty obvious.

Yeah, I'd like to see it.
I'm getting a bit annoyed at people calling me scum and then not saying why actually.

Based only on iso posts up to #3, Jmj is a good place to look tomorrow. I say tomorrow, because we likely will not have time today.

Lolwut?
Deadline is 2 weeks away!

[GhostWriter]

Question: where is my vote?

And I wasn't going by the deadline, but by the speed of the PI wagon.

[Furcolow]

unvote: gonnano

because even if people find him scummy, they're not voting him
interested to hear from pappums replacement
also believe PI should be replaced
interested in seeing jmj iso someone, also

[Sathoris]

also believe PI should be replaced

No prod first, just replaced without consideration? Why the rush? We've still got over 2 weeks left.

[InflatablePie]

jmj wagon is a go people. Lots of people are all basically nodding in agreement, without actually voting.

Cue 3 votes in less than two hours after this post. Something's up. While jmj's being odd and I see the reasoning behind the wagon, it's a bit of a stretch IMO - I'll chalk it up to his playstyle. The wagon speed is too iffy for me and I don't like GW and smarg being on that wagon, either.

@jmj: Can you provide examples of you doing this ISO-thing in other games?

So is that "both" being GW and smarg? What about your vote on Rat then?

I think you're talking about this post, and if you read back and check the context, the GWagon wasn't getting any steam and I liked the Ratwagon at that time.

@IP: Why were there no questions towards the people you were voting for?

I tend to not bother asking a ton of questions (or any, sometimes) towards the people I'm voting for. Usually, I think they're scum, so their response won't sway me either way. An extra vote, even with no questions attached, does pressure players enough that I can use their subsequent reactions to determine if they're scum (and pick said posts apart if needed in order to build a case) or town (in which case I unvote).

[Sotty7]

@ everyone: i have asked cml to replace me out of this game. i am sorry about this, but i currently have 3 f's in college, and the amount of time i spend on this site is the main reason for it. prior to joining ms.net, i only had 2 b's in my history at college. i really hate asking for replacement and being a burden on cml, but with my schedule, it is something i have to do. i will be reducing the number of games i join and hope to no longer be a problem for mods. sorry again for this.

CML is MIA at the moment, however I will start the replacement quest. Until he gets back please direct all mod PMs to both our inboxes so we can keep the game rolling at a good pace.

Thanks guys.

[Fuzzyman]

Unvote

Currently reading and re-reading. I would like to mention that I am neither Soviet nor American, but that I am town nonetheless.

[DavidParker]

Sounds good and worth mentioning at this point to some extent. I think nationality in this game isn't really relevant for town players, it only seems to matter for scum factions who may have to kill people of other nationalities. (In other words, I'd suggest AGAINST claiming your nationality, since it may help scum, but doesn't matter for town)

[LimMePls]

In #356, gonnano devotes an entire wall to defending himself, with almost no scumhunting. He seems to be focusing on survival rather than lynching scum. I want to see godfather-PI dead today, but he is also a good lynch.

PoisonIvy going MIA when pressure is put on her is scummy

How so? Lurking is frustrating, but not an alignment tell IMO.

I don't like the jmj wagon at all. What exactly is wrong with reading people in ISO? I've been making a list of my reads, and found it very useful.

Read his entire iso. Pay particular attention to the last few posts. Then see if your question still makes sense.

[LimMePls]

ThAd case:

ISO 0 - No scum hunting, safe statements that do nothing, and sheeping PI vote.
ISO 1 - More of the same, except the sheeping vote.
ISO 2 - Furcolow is town statement (becomes relevant below). "Good pick up" about GW's "I've never lost as scum" statement, even though it was obviously a joke. GW knows there own record, they would have no reason to lie about this.
ISO 3

Any groups with the ability to talk at night may for so for another 24 hours.[/b][/size]

Mafia could daytalk for 24 hours into day one it seems.

Woah, missed this.

This makes furculow look bad. Very bad.

vote: furculow

This reaction looks faked to me. Hoping for an easy bandwagon on Furc here. Completely contradicts his town read on Furc to this point.

ISO 4 - Weak justification for complete flip on Furc-town.
ISO 5

In other news I felt a lot happier voting poisonivy. Fruc seems to be reacting as a town would in his situation.

vote: poisonivy

Reads "The Furc wagon is not going to take off like I predicted it would. Let me get back on the other bandwagon I was riding." Also note that we still have 0 scum hunting from ThAd. Every vote he has cast has been a bandwagon. The only scum read that he's given was "I'm actually getting scum tingles from smargret." in ISO 2, which was not followed up on AT ALL.

ISO 6-8 - ThAd completely clams up under scrutiny.
ISO 9 - Not much to see here. Continues useless gonanno discussion. Thumbs up my anti-PI observation.
ISO 10 - This should be noted when we have a ThAd flip. bvoigt has done the "why" question on ThAd twice now. If ThAd flips scum, bvoigt needs a looking at.

Now, for some context real quick, gonanno and ThAd have been having a back and forth here about a pretty irrelevant topic. Then we get this from gonanno:

It is if you are town.

Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.

@bvoigt: You have a point that scum would most likely know about the daytalk, but then again scum would also be less likely to bring the subject up. I still think it's all a wash in terms of being a tell.

I don't particularly object to a ThAdmiral wagon right now, but I'd like to see what exactly people are finding so scummy about him before I buy in. What vague posts or hints at inside information has he made?

Note that gonanno doesn't object to a ThAd wagon, BUT (there's always a but) he doesn't know why people want the ThAd wagon. All of the talk about scum ThAd to this point had been really vague. With this in mind, returning to our ISO:

ISO 11

UNVOTE:

I'm having second thoughts about the PI wagon -- it's taken off a little too quickly for my tastes. I still think PI seems scummy, but in the past my scum reads have been pretty terrible, so I'm going to play this one by the numbers.

Furcolow is steadily becoming more and more scummy to me: the "meta" appraisal of PI, the whole RQS deal... and this.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

What?! It's WAY too early in the game to say who's a lurker and who just had a busy couple of days IRL. You're just trying to substitute a policy vote for actual scumhunting.

Scum post: 1. unvotes (inexplicably); 2. smears Furcolow; and 3. doesn't vote Furcolow?! . If PI is still scummy, but Furculow is rising, why not vote him? I don't like the unvote for obvious reasons, as PI isn't really in danger of being lynched soonish, so why the bail? Possible PI scum buddy here.

Good analysis.
I think goanna is a good person to look at tomorrow.

He thinks he's good for tomorrow? Why tomorrow? Notice the subtle distancing that is going on between ThAd and gonanno. Each one thinks the other one COULD be a good wagon, or should be a wagon TOMORROW, but neither will vote the other, or push the other in any meaningful way. Why do they feel this way about each other? Nothing they've said has been earth shattering, all they've really done is squabble over whether Furc voting the only other wagon is scummy. Speaking of pushing people in a meaningful way, I still don't think to this point in ThAd's ISO you can find a single statement that I would consider scum hunting. Not 1.

[quote[quo]te="Beasts of the Sea"]

unvote
vote furcolow

i agree that his 3rd question would be more informative to scum than town, and his comment about day talking scum is bad.

This vote is terrible. Did you not think of this when you were answering the questions the first time through or is this just a bad bandwagon vote?
[/quote]
This is also a good pick up.

You are looking pretty good in my eyes BotS.

Vote: GhostWriter

Not liking him defending Rat (very heavily, too). And I also don't like that we're almost 10 pages in and he doesn't even have a vote down. Aside from defending Rat, his ISO consists of IoA and questions that go nowhere. Do not like.

First of all: whatsup IPman.

Second of all: srsly? Ghostwriter hasn't voted anyone. That is bad.

My lack of placing a vote is due to the fact that both the lead wagons are on two players who are clearly VI's.

That does not excuse you from not voting anyone at all. You haven't even said you are

suspicious

of anyone yet.

vote: ghostwriter

[/quote]

I love the irony. Also, still not a single non wagon vote from ThAd (he is sheeping IP here).

ISO 12 - Interesting reaction to IP, someone he was trying to buddy up to.
ISO 13 - Can't make a convincing argument in response to LF about ThAd wagon. Only "of course it's good, check him out". Which is hilarious given his "WHY!?" anytime someone votes him.
ISO 14 - Mod message post.
ISO 15 - "Stop being a drama queen" directed at PI. Ya, ThAd is quite the scum hunter.
ISO 16 - Challenges LF's "boatload of towntells" in regards GW. Nothing else. STILL NO SCUM HUNTING FOR THAD.
ISO 17 - Continues the distancing to gonanno. But note the inconsistancy. Now gonanno is a good wagon for today, not tomorrow. Still no gonanno vote.
ISO 18 - Just quick useless responses. Nothing trying to move the game forward at all.
ISO 19 - More trying to buddy IP. More being generally useless.
ISO 20 - EVEN FURC REALIZES HE IS SCUM.
ISO 21 - First post I think could genuinely be seen as scum hunting. Finally asks a useful question of GW, but he is kinda all in on GW at this point anyways. Doesn't seem all the strong, but it's something.
ISO 22-24 - Pretty much worthless.
ISO 25 - More IP buddying.
ISO 26/27 - Calls Furc town.
ISO 28 - Backs up his Furc meta read on Furc. I haven't been able to give this the attention it deserves to see if this is justified or not.
ISO 29 - I love this post. "Stalling for time is indeed a scumtell. It's what I used to do as scum quite a bit." Basically ThAd's response to everything point his direction has been stalling. Everything boils down to "why". In addition, his actions seem absolutely determined to not push this game forward in a meaningful way.
ISO 30 - Well, there you go. Now you've seen it.

I'm willing to give jmj a reprieve if he actually re-engages with this game. For now, I feel much better about:

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

[DavidParker]

A case like that doesn't hold much merit on day 1.

Sheeping/bandwagoning a GOOD CASE is not a scum tell in the slightest. It's also pretty hard to scum hunt from your first few posts on day 1, and not something you even want everyone doing or mass confusion ensues. Changing his read suddenly on Furc seems something that town is more likely to do imo. Iso5 is just you twisting his post to seem scummy.

The connection to gonnano is a decent point, but it's still a stretch and not something to base a day 1 lynch on. The case on ThAd is meh. It's just not strong enough for me. I'd rather lynch those players who have made major slips or been actually really scummy such as PI/Furc and now JMJ.

[DavidParker]

JMJJ IS BEST IT SEEMs. more ater when im more sober.

[LimMePls]

HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING AT ALL TODAY! It's not just sheeping/bandwagonning, those are just icing on the cake. He has shown aboslutely 0 interest in moving this game in a positive direction for the town. The sheeping is just how he's hiding the fact that he's doing nothing.

[LimMePls]

The difference between 411 and 412 is strange. They are only a minute apart, yet 412 claims being drunk, and 411 does not look like it comes from someone drunk. What's up with that?

[DavidParker]

DEPENDS ON AMOUNT OF EFFORT FOCUS I PUT INTO A POST WHILE IM DRUNK

[GhostWriter]

I type with perfect grammar whilst drunk. Just sayin'. Not like I'm bragging or anything.

I like the ThAd case. If I can't get what I want out of the Jmj wagon (which, by the way, I am not on for the main reason the others seem to be on it), then that's a very good alternate wagon, with possibilities of a connection from a scum-flip.

[smargaret]

So why are you on it, then?

[GhostWriter]

Nearly no content, over-reaction to what I feel was an early on pressure vote, and it's a wagon that I support.

[bvoigt]

Read his entire iso. Pay particular attention to the last few posts. Then see if your question still makes sense.

I'm dense. Please explain.

Anyway, after reading LMP's case and doing a more thorough ISO, I'd say ThAd is fairly likely to be scum. While PI is still my first choice, this is a much better alternative to lynching jmj.

UNVOTE: PoisonIvy
VOTE: ThAdmiral

[gonnano]

It's good to finally see a real case on Thad. That's what I've been looking for since people started voting him. I have to say, there's quite a bit there even when I leave out the pieces that rely on me being scum -- and even those I could see having merit from the perspective of someone who doesn't know my role PM.

So far, I could see myself potentially voting PI, Jmj, or Thad (in order of preference) if the deadline was getting close.

Since it isn't, though, I want to try again to get everyone to take a look at Lowell. Every part of his play is about flying under the radar. He's done some minimal analysis of GW, but other than that his posts have seemed to be mostly placeholders to maintain a pretense of involvement. If you read what he's written, though, it's obvious that he isn't engaged in this game at all.

As an example of the play that I'm describing, just look at his response to my vote. He answers in such a way that no new information is brought to light, no new points are raised, and none of my original points are really even answered, yet somehow the discussion has been closed. He even pushes some accusation of OMGUS voting my way. All of this is very effective scum play, geared towards isolating himself from the discussion while still appearing to be an active player. By ignoring the majority of the arguments that are happening, he limits both the information that is presented to the town and the chance that he will be accused of something.

I don't know if this is all in my head or what, but I really can't see why no one else is finding this guy even mildly suspicious.

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA for a day

[LlamaFluff]

@Thad - To just get one thing out of what LMP said answered for sure - Can you explain how your Furc read has progressed?

[Furcolow]

also believe PI should be replaced

No prod first, just replaced without consideration? Why the rush? We've still got over 2 weeks left.

it was commented on
i read it, it wasn't necessarily my idea
why are you acting like it is?
are you pushing this because you, yourself are lurking? don't want lurkers attacked?
or are you just someone who doesn't stay up to date with thread topics?
if you're just making it based on semantics, by all means, continue

[Furcolow]

Unvote

Currently reading and re-reading. I would like to mention that I am neither Soviet nor American, but that I am town nonetheless.

For some reason, I don't believe you. Seeing someone do this makes me realize that I shouldn't do this.