Mini 1122: Mafia.Exe Game Over

[Nathanael]

There are 3 players in the game. You are one of them, bgg another. We have lynched 2 scum, one of whom aggressively came after bgg, and one of whom ignored him as a newbie. The other player is scummy, but not terribly so. bgg has played at about this level the entire game. Do you lynch bgg?

Probably I would lynch the scummy guy over bgg in this case.
I am not sure that bgg is town, but I think he has a better chance of being town than anyone else at this moment. if he actually does something

scummy

, i.e. something which is much more likely to come from scum than from town, I will vote him without hesitation. If he keeps up the game he is playing right now, I am sorry to say so but I would not lynch him over a shady other player. I know this is bad, because it means we will have to keep a useless player around to the end, but I think policy lynching isn't going to bring us any further.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

There are a few things I find wrong with Nat's statement, but being that I'm limited in time at a computer, I'll adress the biggest one:
Nat finds bgg the LEAST scummy player available. I really, REALLY doubt "he has a better chance of being town than anyone else at this moment", and am beginning to gather suspicions about Nat's alignment from a defense this transparent. I stand by my choice of bgg, but am happy to keep a discussion up about it, since we're going to keep getting more and more material about other players in the meantime. We have PLENTY of time to go, so I'm not worried about lynching him soon, but it would take something more obvious a scumtell then "I'm so VERY town, and you're going to CRY at my funeral" to make me change my mind at this juncture.

[Ant_to_the_max]

bgg1996,
hey there, I was almost convinced that you are indeed a VT (in which case, the "textbook" says to lynch you anyway), but I just couldn't get over these things you said, in this order a few posts apart, no matter which angle I take looking at this the story simply does not add up. discuss

bgg1996 what is your experience playing Mafia?

Around the middle-end of 2009 I played a few games on a rather inexperienced site. A bit after that I played a newbie game on this site as a... Roleblocker? It was a mafia role, I remember. I was about to lose, but I won because the time ran out.

Does this mafia even have roles other than regular townies and mafia members?

My post here had a possible explanation for that.

@bgg
Right now the only useful think you can do right now is answer this

EBWOP: I want a link to one of your offside games where you were a town role.

If you can not produce any, you are not doing yourself any favors with that attitude.

If bgg is our lynch for today and he does flip town, I am thinking Surprise_Carcinogen and Hiraki might be scum.

[Nathanael]

There are a few things I find wrong with Nat's statement, but being that I'm limited in time at a computer, I'll adress the biggest one:
Nat finds bgg the LEAST scummy player available. I really, REALLY doubt "he has a better chance of being town than anyone else at this moment", and am beginning to gather suspicions about Nat's alignment from a defense this transparent. I stand by my choice of bgg, but am happy to keep a discussion up about it, since we're going to keep getting more and more material about other players in the meantime. We have PLENTY of time to go, so I'm not worried about lynching him soon, but it would take something more obvious a scumtell then "I'm so VERY town, and you're going to CRY at my funeral" to make me change my mind at this juncture.

it's nice to see you that you think "I'm so VERY town, and you're going to CRY at my funeral" is an obvious scumtell. mind telling us why newbscum is more likely to do that than newbtown? have you even

read

my paragraph of putting yourself into bgg's situation? if yes, I'd like you to refute my points instead of just repeating your thesis.
also, do you think I am scum, yes or no?
what do you mean by "a defense this transparent"? what does "transparent" mean for you?
why do you think that newbscum would tell "I can prove that I am town" when it's clear they can't as they aren't town?

If bgg is our lynch for today and he does flip town, I am thinking Surprise_Carcinogen and Hiraki might be scum.

there's a famous go proverb: if you plan playing 1,2,3 (where 2 is the opponent's move), just skip the 1/2 exchange and play 3 directly.
why not lynch S_C directly instead of going through bgg first if you seem so certain bgg will flip town anyway?

[Exe]

My drill is the drill that will pierce the heavens.

Vote Count #6

Day 1

bgg1996

(5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

Xine

(2): bgg1996, Greedling,

Nathanael

(1): DeathRowKitty,

DeathRowKitty

(1): My Milked Eek,

Neruz

(1): [Redacted],

Surprise_Carcinogen

(1): Nathanael,

Llamarble

(0):

GreyICE

(0):

[Redacted]

(0):

My Milked Eek

(0):

Greedling

(0):

Ant_to_the_max

(0):

Hiraki

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

: Ant_to_the_max, Llamarble,

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is at 10:00 AM EST on 2/24/11.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

I have no reason to think that newbscum is more likely to do so then newbtown except that I've never seen it turn out that way. I'll admit, I've only seen it happen about 4 or so times, but even still, they ended up scum 4/4 times, and that can't be coincidence

Metagame aside, I CAN'T put myself in bgg's place, as NOTHING screams town about claiming VT at 3 votes on day 1, and I cannot conceive of a situation in which I would feel the need to do so.

@Ant: What Nat said. Chain-lynching is, as a rule, not a good idea on day 1, and I would LOVE to see 1) what your justification is for deciding on both me and Hiraki, and 2) Your statement shows you're at LEAST okay with bgg going down. Which means you must agree. But the second half shows that you think we're probably scum if we're wrong. Which is a total contradiction, the way I see it. Combine lurking with contradictions and stuff doesn't end up looking so good for you

PS: No, Nat, I don't really think you're scum. I think you're probably just scumhunting, as you've done LITTLE to convince me you are scum. Ant is working his way onto my list though.

[bgg1996]

@bgg
Right now the only useful think you can do right now is answer this

EBWOP: I want a link to one of your offside games where you were a town role.

If you can not produce any, you are not doing yourself any favors with that attitude.

If bgg is our lynch for today and he does flip town, I am thinking Surprise_Carcinogen and Hiraki might be scum.

At least for me, protecting my personal privacy would be more important than a mafia game. Especially in a forum where you cannot edit or delete posts.
Not to mention, one of those games would be from over a year ago.

[GreyICE]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this will be the first time I've actually played as a vanilla townie. (

In my more inexperienced games, all of the roles had an ability

)
Good luck using meta on me.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11741

Alive
bgg1996 - Mafia Roleblocker - Survives

Dead
Kard8p3 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 1
Meji Fan FoShizzle (SE) - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 1
Kichirou - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 2
crazypianist1116 - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 2
dothefandango - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 3
CancerBottle - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 3
Snow White FatedLunar - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed
ChannelDelibird (IC) - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed

While I do believe that "Is able to post and vote" is an ability, this is not what I would call entirely accurate.

Figured I'd look up your one game to get reads... and didn't even get past the player list

[bgg1996]

Huh.
I said that I played 1 newbie game on this site, and a bunch of very inexperienced games on another mafia-unrelated site.
The newbie game had said, on the very first post, that the game would have 1 of 4 set-ups. I wouldn't use plural games if I was talking about the only other game I've ever played on this site.

[bgg1996]

It brings back fun memories, though.

[bgg1996]

I think I'll

unvote

now. I should've waited a bit longer to vote.
Although now two other people are going to come over and kill me for changing my vote so quickly.

[Hiraki]

@bgg
Right now the only useful think you can do right now is answer this

EBWOP: I want a link to one of your offside games where you were a town role.

If you can not produce any, you are not doing yourself any favors with that attitude.

If bgg is our lynch for today and he does flip town, I am thinking Surprise_Carcinogen and Hiraki might be scum.

At least for me, protecting my personal privacy would be more important than a mafia game. Especially in a forum where you cannot edit or delete posts.
Not to mention, one of those games would be from over a year ago.

If this is so, why even mention the game. You're hiding something, and we're very well aware of it.

You need to die now. Nathanael for tomorrow. That doesn't depend on the flip btw.

Why then? Because he randomly changed his views of Bgg. Given, I have done the same, but I didn't outright call him town either.

[Xine]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

ok, I checked, you seem to be a good enough player and fun to be in a game with, but if you were trying to make some kind of point, I missed it.
what do you mean, tell you about that again? scroll back up and re-read my post.

on SC, she seems rather eager to follow other people's leads, and sheep votes

my vote is staying put, I still think it's in the best spot.

[GreyICE]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

ok, I checked, you seem to be a good enough player and fun to be in a game with, but if you were trying to make some kind of point, I missed it.
what do you mean, tell you about that again? scroll back up and re-read my post.

on SC, she seems rather eager to follow other people's leads, and sheep votes

my vote is staying put, I still think it's in the best spot.

I like to stick people outside their comfort zone on day 1. It makes for interesting reactions. RVS is way too predictable nowadays.

[Neruz]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

ok, I checked, you seem to be a good enough player and fun to be in a game with, but if you were trying to make some kind of point, I missed it.
what do you mean, tell you about that again? scroll back up and re-read my post.

on SC, she seems rather eager to follow other people's leads, and sheep votes

my vote is staying put, I still think it's in the best spot.

I like to stick people outside their comfort zone on day 1. It makes for interesting reactions. RVS is way too predictable nowadays.

In a related note, it has been my personal experience that the people who do this are typically scum. Admittedly my pool of evidence is not really large enough to draw a proper conclusion, but it is a point i feel should be made.

[GreyICE]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

[TheButtonmen]

Also fixed.

[Redacted]

-Shrug- Posted on my modding account, mod if you want to delete it I can repost using my other account but I'm fine with it being left as this one

Fixed:

I dislike a BGG for today, A) Neruz interactions with him make me think he's town (see below) and B) his flip isn't very informative as the wagon that formed on him lacks a good solid competing wagon atm.

We have

plenty of free lynches left

, we can always lynch Nath if bgg does end up flipping VI.

I

f it makes you feel any better, once i finish poking these lurkers i'll come back and join you with Nath

, although marble is making a very convincing case against bgg. While

i'm personally leaning more towards bgg town, i can see a possible reason to free lynch him just to get him off the tabl

e, since his situation is getting a little wifommy.

I'm getting a pretty strong town vibe from bgg.

I don't really see any indication that what we see on the surface (a somewhat confused newbie) isn't what is actually there. Barring him suddenly coming up with an elaborate ruse or plan or revealing deep and complex reasoning behind his actions, i'd say he's safe to dismiss as 'probably town' for now.

We have plenty of free lynches yet if someone decides that he just must be an incredibly cunning scum running an elaborate scam.

And once again we have Neruz taking every effort to distance himself from every single person he votes, right when the pressure starts to ramp up on BGG and Nath he goes off to pressure leavers. He also makes sure that repeatedly says he thinks BGG is town but is willing to join the wagon if someone else tells him too.....

Calling it now, BGG is actually what he says he is and Neruz just wants town cred for seemingly white knighting him but wants to leave his options open to push a lynch through.

@Neruz
You think Nathanael needs to be looked into more, I present a case on him, and then you vote a lurker instead?

Good posting, I could easily see Nath and Neruz as scum buddies.

[Neruz]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

There is no 'typical' scum play, you see all kinds, but i have very rarely witnessed a highly aggressive player on d1 being town. This may well be because of a skewed sample space, i'm not sure. I just thought it was something to think about.

[Neruz]

[Redacted]: Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

[GreyICE]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

There is no 'typical' scum play, you see all kinds, but i have very rarely witnessed a highly aggressive player on d1 being town. This may well be because of a skewed sample space, i'm not sure. I just thought it was something to think about.

Lets see, off the top of my head:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15946

xRECKONERx - Star Sapphire, Mason Recruiter
Fate - Tomar-Re, Gunsmith
Andrius (Cult-recruited night 5, town before then)

So... yeah. I think you're probably just being really bad and not really scummy and bad, but I could be mistaken. I have trouble reading statements that are just complete bullshit.

[GreyICE]

[Redacted]: Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

Maybe you're too busy lynching townies for scumhunting?

[Neruz]

So tell me GreyICE; how would 'my experience' contain a game i was not in?

[Exe]

Vote count hasn't changed much but I thought I should let everyone know:

One week

left in Day 1. You have reached the half way point!

Vote Count #7

Day 1

bgg1996

(5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

Xine

(1): Greedling,

Nathanael

(1): DeathRowKitty,

DeathRowKitty

(1): My Milked Eek,

Neruz

(1): [Redacted],

Surprise_Carcinogen

(1): Nathanael,

Llamarble

(0):

GreyICE

(0):

[Redacted]

(0):

My Milked Eek

(0):

Greedling

(0):

Ant_to_the_max

(0):

Hiraki

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

: Ant_to_the_max, Llamarble, bgg1996,

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1 is at 10:00 AM EST on 2/24/11.

[GreyICE]

So tell me GreyICE; how would 'my experience' contain a game i was not in?

I'm pointing out the observation was totally ridiculous.

And, since I'm bored and tired of this nonsense, you were in these two games, yes?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=11658
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15547

You'd call Nacho's play defensive in the first one?

Now compare it to the second, and compare the number of passive-aggressive attacks and fence sits he pulls in the second.

What are you even basing this meta on? If you say Parkie and Andrew, I'm just going to laugh.