Mini 1107: Just a Game (Game Over)

[Withnail]

3) Yes, that vote was a mistake, and as soon as that mistake was pointed out to me, I unvoted. I don't know from whether anyone in the Mafia team was online, and at this point, it's rather impossible to determine that. But, I think that fact that no one joined the wagon is rather proof that I'm not part of the scumteam: if I were, there would only be two more votes required. [After going back and looking at that vote:] In point of fact, Cecily posted between my vote & unvote; why didn't she jump on that wagon? And, Hiraki posted an hour after my unvote, voting Withnail. Why wouldn't Hiraki jump on that wagon, hoping Cecily would jump back on and I (if I were scum with them) would join them for a quick victory? I can't explain their actions, but this does point to my not being a part of their group.

Yes this looks like a good point. What do you say on this, RBT?

I went back to look through that period again, and noticed that RBT began the day by voting for Cecily. Of course, nobody jumped on that bandwagon, because Cecily was mafia. But if RBT is a VT with no information, the vote was just as horrible as NS's vote for Neruz.

Something else I noticed, looking back - post 491, right after all the claims:

Scum team is definitely Neruz/Cecily/Withnail.

I still think Cecily should go first.

Here you were going completely against the grain of everyone's thinking at the time. It was basically obvious to most poeple that Hiraki had botched his own fakeclaim, and must be guilty. But you tried to get some momentum going in another direction.

What were you thinking about Hiraki's claim - did you believe it?

[Riceballtail]

As I said previously, I've abstained from a vote to keep my pro-town image, when it could have led me to victory. It's all WIFOM. NS has been on every lynch wagon, but was not voting at the time of Hiraki's lynch.

I did have information, Cecily was super scum. It was formed from the horrible play made in thread. Scum not piling on the wagon to prove it just made it easier.

I was never trying to say that everyone was wrong about Hiraki, per se. What I did know is that Cecily had a claimed guilty investigation on me. That should have been the primary focus for the day. Worst case, it's 50/50 odds. People noticing Hiraki's botched claim wasn't wrong, or bad, but my focus was on pointing out the terrible play of Cecily to guarantee a scum lynch.

[Withnail]

I was never trying to say that everyone was wrong about Hiraki, per se. What I did know is that Cecily had a claimed guilty investigation on me. That should have been the primary focus for the day. Worst case, it's 50/50 odds. People noticing Hiraki's botched claim wasn't wrong, or bad, but my focus was on pointing out the terrible play of Cecily to guarantee a scum lynch.

This doesn't ring true. Seems to me that you were doing a lot more than ignoring the case against Hiraki. You were actively

endorsing

Hiraki's claim.

In the quote above, you were saying that I was guilty (presumably because Hiraki fakeclaimed that), and also that Neruz was guilty (presumably because Neruz's claim conflicted with Hiraki's).

I still don't understand why you would do that, given the evidence that everyone else saw.

[Withnail]

3) Yes, that vote was a mistake, and as soon as that mistake was pointed out to me, I unvoted. I don't know from whether anyone in the Mafia team was online, and at this point, it's rather impossible to determine that. But, I think that fact that no one joined the wagon is rather proof that I'm not part of the scumteam: if I were, there would only be two more votes required. [After going back and looking at that vote:] In point of fact, Cecily posted between my vote & unvote; why didn't she jump on that wagon? And, Hiraki posted an hour after my unvote, voting Withnail. Why wouldn't Hiraki jump on that wagon, hoping Cecily would jump back on and I (if I were scum with them) would join them for a quick victory? I can't explain their actions, but this does point to my not being a part of their group.

@NS: On reflection ... this isn't a good point in your defence at all (despite what I said above!).

Four votes were needed for a lynch. You voted for Neruz. Cecily posted soon afterwards, followed by RBT. Plus, as you say, Hiraki also posted within an hour of your unvote.

If those three are the mafia team, they had 6 hours in which they could have added their 3 votes to yours - and secured the win. Why didn't they? Surely it must be: because

you

are one of mafia team, and RBT isn't?

[Riceballtail]

I still don't understand why you would do that, given the evidence that everyone else saw.

Because my primary goal was to clear myself by lynching the lying scum "cop". Everything else kinda became irrelevant to me.

[Nobody Special]

3) Yes, that vote was a mistake, and as soon as that mistake was pointed out to me, I unvoted. I don't know from whether anyone in the Mafia team was online, and at this point, it's rather impossible to determine that. But, I think that fact that no one joined the wagon is rather proof that I'm not part of the scumteam: if I were, there would only be two more votes required. [After going back and looking at that vote:] In point of fact, Cecily posted between my vote & unvote; why didn't she jump on that wagon? And, Hiraki posted an hour after my unvote, voting Withnail. Why wouldn't Hiraki jump on that wagon, hoping Cecily would jump back on and I (if I were scum with them) would join them for a quick victory? I can't explain their actions, but this does point to my not being a part of their group.

@NS: On reflection ... this isn't a good point in your defence at all (despite what I said above!).

Four votes were needed for a lynch. You voted for Neruz. Cecily posted soon afterwards, followed by RBT. Plus, as you say, Hiraki also posted within an hour of your unvote.

If those three are the mafia team, they had 6 hours in which they could have added their 3 votes to yours - and secured the win. Why didn't they? Surely it must be: because

you

are one of mafia team, and RBT isn't?

If you note, Hiraki didn't post until *after* I unvoted, so they couldn't all just pile on. I mean, they could've but then it would've been three scum waiting for a town hammer, which isn't likely if you have a smart scumteam. But this is now getting into the realm of speculation. The fact is, I unvoted early enough that they

couldn't

insta-hammer.

I do have comments on your RBT post, but they'll have to wait for tonight.

[Riceballtail]

You mean you're going to lurk on it for as long as possible, hoping for a NL?

[Withnail]

You mean you're going to lurk on it for as long as possible, hoping for a NL?

Don't worry, that wouldn't work. If we don't hear from NS, I'll vote for him. But I think he has something to say, and I want to hear it & discuss it before ending the game.



Meanwhile, RBT, what do you think about this? I have a feeling this is an important piece of the puzzle, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

We haven't really explored the fact that there was a Town Vigilante in this game up until N3, and yet there was only a single NK on both N1 and N2. How do you both explain that?

(same question to NS, of course)

[Riceballtail]

I have a feeling that the three protective roles and three roleblockers might have something to do with it.

[Withnail]

I have a feeling that the three protective roles and three roleblockers might have something to do with it.

Thankyou Sherlock. What I meant was, it would be useful to work out

who did what

, especially on the first 2 nights when our vigilante was still around.

For example, I'm confused as to what must have happened on Night 1. ICEninja's death looks very unlikely to be a mafia kill, because he was the object of so much suspicion on Day 1. More likely that he was a Vigilante kill. But then: why was there no mafia kill as well?

We know that one jailkeeper (VV) was jailed by the other (Neruz) on Night 1. So presumably VV couldn't have successfully jailed anyone. So that's 2 of the 3 protective roles accounted for. And Sordros, our doctor, said this at the time of claiming: "needless to say I have not been very successful so far". Suggesting that he didn't think he had succeeded with any of his protections.

So why no mafia kill N1?

[Right now I wish Sordros had listed his protections, but maybe that's something we can discuss after the game.]

[Nobody Special]

The case against RBT

1. Contributed basically nothing on Day 1.

2. Falsely claimed to have "information" on Day 2, and promised to share it with the town.

3. Despite #2, was apparently never targeted by the mafia for a NK. How likely is that?

4. Though he claims to have "known" that Cecily was mafia, which turned out to be true ... he was also "certain" at various times that Neruz, VV, and then me were all mafia. In other words, he didn't stick to the gambit of "I've got information about Cecily". So I don't really see the purpose of the gambit, if it was one.

5. In lylo, he became obsessed with lynching Cecily, despite the extremely strong case against Hiraki ... and the advantages of lynching him first in terms of proving Cecily's guilt. Defended his p.o.v. with a very weak argument, and pointedly and persistently refused to answer questions about it. I can't see any town reason for this behaviour. But there was a clear advantage for the mafia: Hiraki was a Roleblocker, while Cecily was just a Goon.

6. It seems pretty clear that Neruz thought NS was the last mafioso - see post 527 in particular. Neruz was a jailkeeper, and yet he died last night. I would have expected him to try to jail NS. Which would have prevented NS from killing Neruz ... but might have led to Neruz's death if NS really is a PGO. Or am I perhaps misunderstanding something about one of these roles?

NS: are you notified as to whether you PGO-killed someone in the night?
[Neruz - I'm silently cursing you for not delaying Yesterday a bit longer! ]

Rather than go point by point, I'm just gong to add some thoughts. The two most damning things in RBT's detriment are the "sooper seekrit info" gambit thing and the Sure Solid Knowledge that Cecily was scum. Also, the fact the he's STILL ALIVE despite such a scummy gambit AND being called out on it throughout the game. (As a side note, if I were scum and he pulled this type of thing being town, I'd be all over it to lynch him, rather than nightkill him.)

I have not, during this game, gotten any acknowledgment that anyone visited me (or died as a result of same). My understanding of the role is that the role never learns this information until post-game.


Also, this:

I never had any information.

I just play mysterious sometimes

to watch people who will vote and push my wagon. I can analyze other people's wagons somewhat as well, but I've never been as good at it as watching my own. The reason I knew Cecily had to be scum (and Neruz was only picked because of my vote on him the previous day), is because "Vote RBT blah blah blah sit on it and do nothing else". I only act that way in order to draw the easy scum votes onto myself, and catch them early.

Scum never like people with information.

A perfect scum gambit to perhaps make us think "RBT can't

possibly

be scum"? Hmmm.

2) I never said that I had ANY information. I had a reason, but never claimed to have information.

Um, ... yes you did:

I don't disagree, but right now is not an okay time to share my information. Fear not, though, for as long as the town isn't stupid, I will be able to share it.

Then backtracking to try and wiggle out of the failed "gambit."

@ Hiraki and RBT: I don't understand your play. If you won't explain your reasons for voting, how do you expect to persuade anyone to join you?

I'm intentionally playing a bit on the "mysterious" side right now. When my plan is ready to be exposed in full, you will know.

More mystery. When he defeats the town as scum, he'll let us know. Isn't that comforting?

[Nobody Special]

Oh, and nightkill analysis makes my head spin, but if you

really

want it, I'll manage. Somehow.

[Riceballtail]

Rather than go point by point, I'm just gong to add some thoughts. The two most damning things in RBT's detriment are the "sooper seekrit info" gambit thing and the Sure Solid Knowledge that Cecily was scum. Also, the fact the he's STILL ALIVE despite such a scummy gambit AND being called out on it throughout the game. (As a side note, if I were scum and he pulled this type of thing being town, I'd be all over it to lynch him, rather than nightkill him.)

Also, this:

I never had any information.

I just play mysterious sometimes

to watch people who will vote and push my wagon. I can analyze other people's wagons somewhat as well, but I've never been as good at it as watching my own. The reason I knew Cecily had to be scum (and Neruz was only picked because of my vote on him the previous day), is because "Vote RBT blah blah blah sit on it and do nothing else". I only act that way in order to draw the easy scum votes onto myself, and catch them early.

Scum never like people with information.

A perfect scum gambit to perhaps make us think "RBT can't

possibly

be scum"? Hmmm.

@ Hiraki and RBT: I don't understand your play. If you won't explain your reasons for voting, how do you expect to persuade anyone to join you?

I'm intentionally playing a bit on the "mysterious" side right now. When my plan is ready to be exposed in full, you will know.

More mystery. When he defeats the town as scum, he'll let us know. Isn't that comforting?

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

You'll find that most people don't understand my strange ways of scumhunting.

Why do you play this way? Is it so you can hide better, in games when you are Mafia?

I play this way because I do. Don't worry, people IRL can't figure me out, either. Many have tried, all have failed.

So you can do it, and you're protown? But if I do it, I must be the biggest scumbag this side of Theme Park?

[Nobody Special]

But I know I'm Town, and I'm pretty sure you're not.

[Riceballtail]

But I know I'm Town, and I'm pretty sure you're not.

Too bad you haven't actually tried to prove that.

[Withnail]

But I know I'm Town, and I'm pretty sure you're not.

"pretty sure" ??

I'm confused: how can you be in any doubt about that?

[Nobody Special]

It was rhetoric. I don't "know" anyone's alignment but my own; relatively, RBT is scummier than you, Withnail, therefore the "pretty sure."

[Withnail]

How could

I

be anything other than town? Surely I'd have voted and won the game by now, if I were anything else?

Your phrasing looks like a "scumslip".

[Nobody Special]

Well, yes, I guess if you were scum, you'd've hammered long ago. All I can say is I'm in 8 games right now, and probably not thinking as clearly as I should be.

[Riceballtail]

How could

I

be anything other than town? Surely I'd have voted and won the game by now, if I were anything else?

Your phrasing looks like a "scumslip".

Yeah, pretty much this.

Can you end this already?

[Withnail]

I don't think we'll be getting any more useful evidence from anyone, so I may as well vote.

Basically, I think there are good grounds to vote for either of you, but the case against NS seems stronger to me.

VOTE: Nobody Special


[Whether I'm right or wrong, at least I'm looking forward to understanding all the night actions in this game. ]

[Nobody Special]

How could

I

be anything other than town? Surely I'd have voted and won the game by now, if I were anything else?

Your phrasing looks like a "scumslip".

Excellent catch. I was kicking myself ALL DAY LONG after you posted that. I totally suck at being scum.

Good game, Town!

[Nobody Special]

Fun Fact: The wonderful scumteam (I

told

you I suck as scum) forgot to send in a kill for BOTH nights 1 and 2. (I just re-read the scumQT.)

Hiraki, Cecily, I'm fine linking it if you guys are.

[Neruz]

[b[YES![/b]

[Nobody Special]

I seriously did not believe there were two Jailkeepers until you flipped.