: Why are you so concerned with clearing Olinea? You seem convinced he is being framed and thus go after everyone on his wagon, but there is some merit to the case; i.e., Tasky’s gambit achieved a scummy reaction.
It's not so much that I wanted to clear him. It's slightly more weird now that we know who claimed the kill, which I mainly believed Olinea to not have killed. I was making a stupid connection of basically saying since Olinea didn't kill, then they must be town. And as I look back at that now, I realize just how silly I am for that, making me need to reread Olinea's case.
populartajo wrote:Xalxe how do you define scumhunting?
Also please scumlist in your following post.
Second this, I don't think by asking people for a town/scum list, you are scumhunting.
Nocmen wrote:I see the point in IS's vote, but not so much Zaj's.
I don't really have the energy to explain in detail. I'm still kinda sick. For now, suffice it so say that I, like IS and Zora and whoever else, find him to be appearing to be more useful than he actually is, and not scumhunting while trying to look like he is.
My GTKAS
"okay who the fuck didnt kill me." - nintendoaddict1
Fishythefish wrote:First, role related stuff:
- ender’s claim makes everything make more sense. Someone confirm they created Post Bomber?
@ender:
why did you chose the moment you did to claim? Why not earlier, and why then?
- For people who haven’t (and particularly for those who have hardly posted), I’d still encourage claiming what you submitted. It narrows down the field of potential fakeclaims, which is a good thing. There may well be a point when scum can’t claim their real role because it’s been used scummily.
- To everyone: if there’s a detonator in the game, is there any reason to think they’re town or scum?
People who I have problems with:
Furc
Dislike his unwillingness to confirm Oli; rather like he wants continued pressure on Oli, when the protown thing to do is clearly verify the claim. Then, when a couple of people vote for him, he votes Oli. Feels like Furc always
knew
that was the protown thing to do, and once he was called on his inaction he wanted to appease the town. His explanation for this later is that confirming Oli’s claim was setting up for his wagon to be disbanded, which was counter to Furc’s goal, lynching the scummiest player. In other words, an outright admission that he cares about lynching Oli, not working out what is going on. This rather makes my point:
Furc wrote: I am really confused as to what is going on with the Olinea/detonator/populartajo situation, but it is making me suspicious of them.
I don’t think that’s a natural townie reaction to the problem of being really confused about something. It seems that Furc can’t quite work out how to get from the facts to Oli/tajo scummy, but wants to give a scumread anyway. Furc seems content to throw out things that sound like they make Oli scum, while never presenting a coherent view of why he thinks that. He also sheeps the bad WIR vote on tajo. Overall, Furc’s play shows a massive lack of interest in working out who’s scum.
IS
Basically, I think IS is scummy for being so, so wrong about things. This isn’t usually a good scumtell, but here it looks like IS is really being argumentative for the sake of it – I feel he’s deliberately pushing an “I’m so townie I don’t care what you think” line, rather than actually thinking about things.
Olinea
A scummy reaction to Tasky’s gambit. As town, I’d want to address any claimed information saying I was likely scum. As scum, I’d want nobody to be talking about it. Thinks DH is tunneled town rather than scum.
WhenInRome
His 126 stinks. It doesn’t sound like he thinks Olinea detonated the bomb – more like he did something weird, and that that justifies the vote. His vote in 272 is based on a contradiction from tajo that doesn’t exist – what tajo is clearly asking for is whether any submitted roles
other than Yosarianite
that could explain the votecount anomaly.
Xalxe
I was going to say I don’t really support this, because I don’t think the early game IIoA is a good scumtell. But looking at Xalxe, he really hasn’t done much in the way of scumhunting in a lot of posts. It’s not just the massclaim count; his posts generally are pretty fluffy. Who is scum, Xalxe?
Deathnote
I dislike his reaction to Xalxe, when Xalxe’s wagon was building early on for IIoA. Votes Xalxe when other people are doing so for reasons, saying “little pressure needed here”. Firstly, it simply wasn’t – Xalxe had a very decent wagon going. More to the point, this distances DN from the actual reasons for voting Xalxe, and undermines the vote itself.
StrangerCoug
WIR’s vote on tajo is bad; sheeping and defending it is worse. Doesn't feel like he's really thinking about the point at all.
Style notes: I applaud the use of videos, and would be happy to see more. I’d encourage dana not to reply inside quotes; it’s hard to read and harder to quote.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Furc
My unwillingness to vote Olinea was based upon Xalxe and Olinea goading me into doing so when I first was catching up. It just felt wrong. VOTE: Xalxe
I didn't "know" anything, and I don't. I can only use my head, and follow my heart with my vote.
Your quote just proves that the situation didn't sit right with me. There can't be a case on me.
Olinea wrote:I don't know why I haven't asked this earlier, but
Did anyone send in a role that functions as a Daykill when you PM it to the Mod?
I did not.
Furcolow wrote:How can you not see that Olinea's claims have lead to two townie deaths, and a weird scenario in which I can't vote the biggest wagon? That is completely against my playstyle to not be able to bandwagon, and has me insanely suspicious of them. I will be checking to see if I can vote them, trust me on that.
Unless 1.) you can have two roles at once or 2.) both Olinea fakeclaimed a role his buddy really has and the mod made a mistake, Olinea is not the detonator. I am not willing to consider that Olinea is scum because he said "detonate". I'm not sold here.
I was actually leaning towards 2, but with ender's claim I'm completely fine with Olinea's ability being the one in which I can't vote.
populartajo wrote:it doesnt make sense at least in two different ways:
1. you say he has scumtells but somehow you think he is playing more his town meta. Does this make sense to you? If he has scumtells then he is more likely to come up scum than someone who doesnt have scumtells, right?
2. you say that you think he is playing his town meta (which is very little different than his scum meta). This ability to differentiate his town meta and his scum meta require a good ability to read him, yet you say that you have a hell of a time reading him.
there are other things like saying that you think he has scumtells, then that he is playing more like town and then that you read on him is null, but I feel like you are trying to say something and failing in the attempt.
think for a second and then come up with what you really want to say.
actually my town and scum meta are completely different
it just takes some getting used to and knowing me as a player
once you get to do that, you will see i have two completely different and polarized games
i am not as scummy here as i would be as scum, because as scum I really just lurk
I’d like a Top 3 list of both Town and Scum. No, that’s not a question.
Top 3 scum: populartajo, Internet Stranger, Xalxe
Top 3 town: Olinea and ender241 are the only two people on whom I've had a strong town read. Forced to pick a third name, I'd say Plum.
Hold on, I don't understand this list. You have me as Town and Tajo as scum. If that were the case, wouldn't the best move for tajo been keeping quiet about sending in the Yosarianite role?
I don't like this at all
How can you all not see the scumteam I'm seeing?
Started out weak, but has gotten better since. I think it was stupid to refuse to verify some part of Olinea's roleclaim, but since then, you've at least been trying to help.
Furcolow's Question:
Last we heard from you, a surprising revalation had "changed everything." What are your thoughts now?
to this:
Xalxe wrote:Other scumreads include InternetStranger and Furcolow.
When I had not been posting, as I had been sick without the internet? You completely flip-flopped here.
first I want everyone to answer this few questions:
a) did you read my gambit on Olinea? (the full description of the Gambit can be found in this post.)
b) what do you think on the result?
c) if you think it makes Olinea scummy, why aren't you voting yet?
Fishythefish wrote:We should probably be a little more willing to lynch Oli than other players, particularly when LYLO approaches. Same goes for any role that's better for scum than town. Lylo is a very long way off, and one way another Oli may die or have an obvious alignment before then. I'm definitely not saying Oli should be lynched at this stage.
if you state we should be more willing to lynch Oli later, why shouldn't that apply to now?
I actually don't like how you constantly repeat how scummy Oli reacted to my gambit but then always find reasons not to vote him.
Possible buddy here.
FoS: Fishy
Xalxe wrote:
Tasky
I disconcur with your Olinea views and stance on massclaim.
how about telling me WHERE my case on Oli is wrong instead of just telling me you don't agree?
Xalxe wrote:
Tasky's Question:
Why do you sound like you want people to vote for you?
@StrangerCoug: shouldn't you be pushing my lynch much harder than you pushed on Tajo's considering it is based on "LynchAllLiars" and considering I pulled a gambit in which I lied? I could see plenty of reasons for ignoring me if you were Oli's scumpartner.
FoS: SC
@Sevei, how likely do you think Olinea is scum (considering the incredibly scummy reactions to my gambit). do you think Xalxe/Oli is a viable scumteam?
@Interned Stranger: Where do you draw the line between not giving scum information and giving town the information they need to make a viable lynch? This is related to reads only.
_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_
If Olineas original response wasn't enough to make me convinced he is scum, then those definitely are:
Olinea wrote:Is not strong reasoning, and
appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.
Olinea wrote:
I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out
-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.
contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information.
btw, false PR-information are quite rare, and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.
Olinea wrote:I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an
extremely
vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an
"Oh, you found me out? You die now"
kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.
scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.
_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_
d) why aren't you voting Olinea now?
PS: I will only tolerate the following two actions at this point:
i) vote Olinea.
ii) adress the points in my case you believe are wrong.
I will consider everyone who ignores my post a likely scumbuddy of Olinea's
Tasky wrote:@StrangerCoug: shouldn't you be pushing my lynch much harder than you pushed on Tajo's considering it is based on "LynchAllLiars" and considering I pulled a gambit in which I lied? I could see plenty of reasons for ignoring me if you were Oli's scumpartner.
FoS: SC
There are no hard and fast "rules" to scumhunting, only guidelines, and Lynch All Liars has its exceptions. Kokusho's Gambit is one of them, and certainly there are others of which people can think.
Internet Stranger wrote:Oh and I forgot to mention Plum. Looking at her lovering role, what exactly does that role do for the town? I sense more scum uses than town ones. I would have just voted for her, but im thinking she is going to be investigation bait anyways.
FOS: PLUM
Loveriser is a ridiculous role to give to scum. Just one free nightkill on whoever they want, only bonus from being a lover is the overpowered "make good town player and bad town player lovers, kill unprotected bad town to kill protected good town" strategy, and if it was given to scum I doubt they would pick too lynchbaits like chesskid and cooldog.
Furcolow wrote:Xalxe, how did you go from this:
Xalxe wrote:
Furcolow
Started out weak, but has gotten better since. I think it was stupid to refuse to verify some part of Olinea's roleclaim, but since then, you've at least been trying to help.
Furcolow's Question:
Last we heard from you, a surprising revalation had "changed everything." What are your thoughts now?
to this:
Xalxe wrote:Other scumreads include InternetStranger and Furcolow.
When I had not been posting, as I had been sick without the internet? You completely flip-flopped here.
Would love to hear an answer to this one.
DemonHybrid is probably scum, DH's switch onto IS after Olinea doesn't read nicely but the movements across the ISO in general push me the wrong way.
VOTE: DemonHybrid
Furc wagon is ridiculous, he is playing a townie Furc game.
Stangercoug's play is weirding me a little, doesn't seem good; has anyone played with SC before? Could you tell us anything?
Tasky's gambit is weak, can we see some examples of reactions to that and similar gambits in the past? Have you bothered to look at if Oli has a meta when reacting to things like this as scum? Without something concrete the gambit isn't a particularly convincing one, not enough to drop other scumreads even if you accepted its premises. The whole "you should be lynching me according to your logic" thing with SC is weird too.
Tasky wrote:first I want everyone to answer this few questions:
a) did you read my gambit on Olinea? (the full description of the Gambit can be found in this post.)
b) what do you think on the result?
c) if you think it makes Olinea scummy, why aren't you voting yet?
d) why aren't you voting Olinea now?
PS: I will only tolerate the following two actions at this point:
i) vote Olinea.
ii) adress the points in my case you believe are wrong.
I will consider everyone who ignores my post a likely scumbuddy of Olinea's
I get what you're saying about the gambit, and I still have lingering suspicions about Olinea from some of the things that just don't quite add up, but I have a much stronger read on Xalxe at this point, which is why I'm not voting Olinea.
However, I really don't like your stance of "Agree with me or you're scum." I find that stance to be scummy.
FoS: Tasky
My GTKAS
"okay who the fuck didnt kill me." - nintendoaddict1
DemonHybrid
Ehh...I don't like your early game play. You've gotten better though.
DemonHybrid's Question: Who is scum?
tajo and IS I'd say. I'm much less sure about IS but I'm keeping an eye on him; I'm not sure if his meta is to tunnel that much, but even I know when to let off Olinea when the evidence pretty much presented itself in the form of Frank's vote on him. Even after IS let go of the possibility of Olinea being a detonator, he wants to lynch SOMEONE who is a Detonator, none of which made sense because the only person in this game who bolded Detonate was Olinea.
tajo is just scraping by on light questions without doing much scumhunting at all and injecting WIFOM when he feels like it's necessary.
DemonHybrid is probably scum, DH's switch onto IS after Olinea doesn't read nicely but the movements across the ISO in general push me the wrong way.
Can you explain this further? Do you feel that a presentation of evidence is not an allowance to switch your suspicions?
Tasky wrote:If Olineas original response wasn't enough to make me convinced he is scum, then those definitely are:
Olinea wrote:Is not strong reasoning, and
appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.
Olinea wrote:
I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out
-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.
contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information
Because I'd been considering both sides of the coin. I didn't have a read on you, Tasky; I couldn't decide if this was gambiting scum or misguided Town.
Tasky wrote:btw, false PR-information are quite rare
You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?
Tasky wrote:and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.
Unless I’m completely missing the point of this statement, in this scenario you just outlined, I’m Town.
The other point is that, again, I had no idea if there was any PR stuff going on. If the mods went “Tasky is an informative PR who used his role on Olinea and got bad results”, then I’d look into it.
Tasky wrote:
Olinea wrote:I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an
extremely
vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an
"Oh, you found me out? You die now"
kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.
scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.
Are you kidding me? What kind of townie
intentionally
comes under suspicion? There certainly
is
a town reason for not wanting scumhunting efforts to go towards one's self -- because it means that scumhunting (or faux scumhunting) isn't currently being directed towards scum. To you, because I'd rather people direct their attention towards scum, I'm scummy? Good one.
GreyICE:
Cult: You're playing monopoly, when all of a sudden someone grabs the gameboard and throws it across the room. Then plops down a risk board. And then tells you you were playing risk all along. And that you now have 5 armies left, and control two countries in the middle of Africa.
Tasky wrote:@StrangerCoug: shouldn't you be pushing my lynch much harder than you pushed on Tajo's considering it is based on "LynchAllLiars" and considering I pulled a gambit in which I lied? I could see plenty of reasons for ignoring me if you were Oli's scumpartner.
FoS: SC
There are no hard and fast "rules" to scumhunting, only guidelines, and Lynch All Liars has its exceptions. Kokusho's Gambit is one of them, and certainly there are others of which people can think.
*checks Kokusho's Gambit in the wiki* fair enough.
Zajnet wrote:However, I really don't like your stance of "Agree with me or you're scum." I find that stance to be scummy.
FoS: Tasky
haha. nice misrep. I never, ever said "agree with me or you're scum". I said "agree with me or tell me where I am wrong or you are scum"="ignore me and you are scum". If you don't agree with me, fine, say so. but if you just ignore me, then that means you don't want to take a clear stance.
Olinea wrote:You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?
but one shouldn't
assume
PRs to be fallible. even if it is
possible
for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly
probable
and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.
Olinea wrote:
Tasky wrote:and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.
Unless I’m completely missing the point of this statement, in this scenario you just outlined, I’m Town.
there are two scenarios: in the one you are scum, you were playing in the best and rational way
in the one you are town (the one described above), you were playing in the worst and most anti-own-win-con-way.
therefore your actions are much more likely to come from scum than from town
therefore you are much more likely to be scum than town.
Olinea wrote:Are you kidding me? What kind of townie
intentionally
comes under suspicion? There certainly
is
a town reason for not wanting scumhunting efforts to go towards one's self -- because it means that scumhunting (or faux scumhunting) isn't currently being directed towards scum. To you, because I'd rather people direct their attention towards scum, I'm scummy? Good one.
Let's take the extreme example of the cop-guilty again:
assume A declares a guilty on B, but nobody notices it.
a) if he stays quiet he avoids suspicion
b) if he attacks A he either finds a fakeclaiming scum or either way has a chance to resolve the issue, but he will inevitably come under suspicion
do you think a town-B would choose a) over b)?
I hope however that everybody sees that scum-B likes the result after a) much more than the one after b) and will therefore choose the former.
coming back to our (less extreme) case:
if you were town, the small amount of suspicion you could come into would be almost meaningless compared to the possible gain in questioning someone who claims some extra-threat reasons to vote you. and if you are town, what exactly could you fear in the exchange? consciously avoiding conflicts is one of the major and most reliable scumtells possible.
brokenscraps wrote:Tasky's gambit is weak, can we see some examples of reactions to that and similar gambits in the past? Have you bothered to look at if Oli has a meta when reacting to things like this as scum? Without something concrete the gambit isn't a particularly convincing one, not enough to drop other scumreads even if you accepted its premises.
You seem to be missing the point. Olinea clearly avoided a conflict. do you agree with me that scum is much more likely to do that than town?
if he does so regularly as town, then he has the burden of proof to show me so (
@ Oli
, do you have some town-meta where you avoid a direct conflict with someone in a similar or in a somewhat comparable way to this game?)
brokenscraps wrote:The whole "you should be lynching me according to your logic" thing with SC is weird too.
what is weird exactly? and what does weird mean in your dictionary? don't you think doing different things in similar scenarios (not attacking a liar vs. attacking a liar) at least requires clarification?
Olinea wrote:You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?
but one shouldn't
assume
PRs to be fallible. even if it is
possible
for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly
probable
and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.
Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.
Tasky wrote:there are two scenarios: in the one you are scum, you were playing in the best and rational way
in the one you are town (the one described above), you were playing in the worst and most anti-own-win-con-way.
therefore your actions are much more likely to come from scum than from town
therefore you are much more likely to be scum than town.
Let's put it this way. Say I confronted you about it. What kind of questions would I have been able to ask without blatantly rolefishing?
Tasky wrote:
Olinea wrote:Are you kidding me? What kind of townie
intentionally
comes under suspicion? There certainly
is
a town reason for not wanting scumhunting efforts to go towards one's self -- because it means that scumhunting (or faux scumhunting) isn't currently being directed towards scum. To you, because I'd rather people direct their attention towards scum, I'm scummy? Good one.
Let's take the extreme example of the cop-guilty again:
assume A declares a guilty on B, but nobody notices it.
a) if he stays quiet he avoids suspicion
b) if he attacks A he either finds a fakeclaiming scum or either way has a chance to resolve the issue, but he will inevitably come under suspicion
do you think a town-B would choose a) over b)?
I hope however that everybody sees that scum-B likes the result after a) much more than the one after b) and will therefore choose the former.
coming back to our (less extreme) case:
if you were town, the small amount of suspicion you could come into would be almost meaningless compared to the possible gain in questioning someone who claims some extra-threat reasons to vote you. and if you are town, what exactly could you fear in the exchange? consciously avoiding conflicts is one of the major and most reliable scumtells possible.
What do I risk there?
a) Outing another PR, or at least giving scum information about you (Should you be town)
b) Attracting even more suspicion during a period where I was still believed to be a Detonator (Should you be scum, this fills your agenda nicely)
Look. I avoided the issue because there were people with actual statements and questions for me instead of extremely vague softclaiming. I avoid you and it's a scumtell. I ask you where you got your info, or ask about the info, that's definite rolefishing -- a scumtell. Tell me what would have made this anything but a lose-lose situation.
For your meta question, let me purge my games again. I've only got 4 completed Town games for reference (the other two are off-site in some subforum which you'd need to make an account for, then request to join; if you don't mind the hassle and would like to comb the threads anyways, I'll hook you up) -- lynched D1 in my first and NK'ed N1 in my second, but I'll see. I've got an off-site Serial Killer game here which you can reference but I'm not sure which meta you'd count that towards. Basically, Player A claims Neighbor, I jump on the wagon of Neighbor B, and come under a bit of fire. I can get back to you on this but I haven't come under much scrutiny for months until this game.
GreyICE:
Cult: You're playing monopoly, when all of a sudden someone grabs the gameboard and throws it across the room. Then plops down a risk board. And then tells you you were playing risk all along. And that you now have 5 armies left, and control two countries in the middle of Africa.
Olinea wrote:Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.
Unless we're dealing with sanity issues, I can't make heads or tails out of this. Elaborate please.
Basically sanity issues, but I also consider fallibility of a PR to be when something can tamper with definite results. Godfathers make Cops fallible, Undertakers for Trackers, etc. Since we don't know exactly what we're dealing with here, the accuracy of informative PRs can definitely be called into question.
GreyICE:
Cult: You're playing monopoly, when all of a sudden someone grabs the gameboard and throws it across the room. Then plops down a risk board. And then tells you you were playing risk all along. And that you now have 5 armies left, and control two countries in the middle of Africa.
: In a single post you FoSed THREE different people. Putting aside how effective that is at drawing our attention to potential scum, why haven't you, with that many suspects, voted ANY of them? Instead you keep on blathering about Olinea in a way that is, frankly, too long; did not read. (or, to be more accurate: r;ego [read; eyes glazed over]).
Nocmen wrote:I see the point in IS's vote, but not so much Zaj's.
I don't.
populartajo wrote:Xalxe how do you define scumhunting?
Also please scumlist in your following post.
Scumhunting (n): Attempting to catch anti-town players via their actions, statements, votes, etc. Is your definition different?
By scumlist, I presume you mean "people who are scum." Off the top of my head, it includes zoraster, DeathNote (who I believe I'm voting for, no?), InternetStranger, zajnet, furcolow, and maybe DemonHybrid and danakillsu.
Furcolow wrote:Xalxe, how did you go from this:
Xalxe wrote:
Furcolow
Started out weak, but has gotten better since. I think it was stupid to refuse to verify some part of Olinea's roleclaim, but since then, you've at least been trying to help.
Furcolow's Question:
Last we heard from you, a surprising revalation had "changed everything." What are your thoughts now?
to this:
Xalxe wrote:Other scumreads include InternetStranger and Furcolow.
When I had not been posting, as I had been sick without the internet? You completely flip-flopped here.
No, no I didn't. You just aren't the best lynch right now.
@Tasky: No. Actually, I didn't read that...which gives me pause. Add Olinea to the scumlist actually.
And RE: why no Olinea vote yet, quite frankly, I don't like the false dilemma you're providing the town, though with the gambit et al it is a more formidable case.
Oh, and I see your response to zaj, and no. What you said was that you would only tolerate votes for Olinea or disagreement with you, i.e. "You vote for Olinea or you are wrong."
"I, too, would prefer to know the Xalxe of my demise." - Felissan, 2022
- On this day in history: mundanity, and terror, and food, and love, and trees -
: In a single post you FoSed THREE different people. Putting aside how effective that is at drawing our attention to potential scum, why haven't you, with that many suspects, voted ANY of them? Instead you keep on blathering about Olinea in a way that is, frankly, too long; did not read. (or, to be more accurate: r;ego [read; eyes glazed over]).
FoS: Tasky
I hereby subscribe to your line of thinking.
FoS: Tasky
I normally consider him a pretty logical person, and this is pretty far away from the norm.
: In a single post you FoSed THREE different people. Putting aside how effective that is at drawing our attention to potential scum, why haven't you, with that many suspects, voted ANY of them? Instead you keep on blathering about Olinea in a way that is, frankly, too long; did not read. (or, to be more accurate: r;ego [read; eyes glazed over]).
FoS: Tasky
We are in a 23 player-game, there are probably 5/6 scum, I don't think having only one suspect at a time is appropriate, do you?
And in case you aren't noticing I am voting for one of my suspects (Olinea).
look, if you don't want to read my case, that's not my fault. I'll even put toghether the most important bits of my case (bottom of post).
danakillsu wrote:I hereby subscribe to your line of thinking.
FoS: Tasky
I normally consider him a pretty logical person, and this is pretty far away from the norm.
first part -> read above
second part -> what about my case is not logical exactly?
Xalxe wrote:Oh, and I see your response to zaj, and no. What you said was that you would only tolerate votes for Olinea or disagreement with you, i.e. "You vote for Olinea or you are wrong."
-_-
if I tolerate disagreement, that means that it is fine if you don't agree with me (i.e. you don't vote for Olinea)
as long as you show where my case is faulty
.
Look, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough:
case 1) you read my case on olinea
case 1a) you agree with my case => you vote Olinea
case 1b) you don't agree with my case => you show me where you don't agree and why
case 1c) you avoid commenting my case for whatever reason
case 2) you don't read my case
cases 1a/1b are fine, cases 1c/2 are not. there is simply no town reason to choose 2 or 1c.
_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_
Olinea wrote:
Tasky wrote:
Olinea wrote:You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?
but one shouldn't
assume
PRs to be fallible. even if it is
possible
for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly
probable
and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.
Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.
haha. you fear investigation, do you?
Let's put it this way. Say I confronted you about it. What kind of questions would I have been able to ask without blatantly rolefishing?
something like: "Vote: Tasky. Whatever information you claim to have is wrong. You better elaborate on that 'reason' of yours or I'll lynch you for lying." Or maybe being a little more conservative you could have started with "Tasky, how strong is this 'reason' or yours?" to know more. then you could have acted accordingly to my answer.
a) Outing another PR, or at least giving scum information about you (Should you be town)
I don't understand this. could you rephrase?
b) Attracting even more suspicion during a period where I was still believed to be a Detonator (Should you be scum, this fills your agenda nicely)
The whole Detonator-bullshit was obviously going to crumble sooner or later, especially considering that you have a confirmable role-claim. so a player should avoid confronting someone he
knows
is lying/wrong because of fear of suspicion? if you are a townie you have absolutely nothing to lose in such a confrontation. scum however, will want to keep out of it as much as possible.
Look. I avoided the issue because there were people with actual statements and questions for me instead of extremely vague softclaiming. I avoid you and it's a scumtell. I ask you where you got your info, or ask about the info, that's definite rolefishing -- a scumtell. Tell me what would have made this anything but a lose-lose situation.
This is exactly my point. There was the whole detonator-thing around and you knew you could free yourself from that (rather) easily (by role-claim). Therefore you wanted some hype around you, which you could then foil and come out well and townish from the exchange. I see the whole detonator thing as a very convenient shield against any other accusations. just because there is one (very weak) case on you (the detonator) that does absolutely not give you the right to avoid a scumhunting confrontation.
this is another very huge scumtell, scum will always attack the weakest case on them and therefore make it seem like they have refuted all possible cases on them.
For your meta question, let me purge my games again. I've only got 4 completed Town games for reference (the other two are off-site in some subforum which you'd need to make an account for, then request to join; if you don't mind the hassle and would like to comb the threads anyways, I'll hook you up) -- lynched D1 in my first and NK'ed N1 in my second, but I'll see. I've got an off-site Serial Killer game here which you can reference but I'm not sure which meta you'd count that towards. Basically, Player A claims Neighbor, I jump on the wagon of Neighbor B, and come under a bit of fire. I can get back to you on this but I haven't come under much scrutiny for months until this game.
no, it's not about you coming under suspicion, it's about avoiding a possibly information-bringing confrontation
_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_
Spoiler: there is no excuse not to read this
Tasky wrote:But, Olinea is scum anyway. To see why, go back to my post 188. I clearly state in that post that I have "a REALLY GOOD REASON to believe he is scum". (after the post 147/post 149 exchange) Now, that is not just some accusation that comes from nothing, but it's clear it has to do with some extra-information I possess. Now, as seen by post 191 Olinea has clearly seen my post. Yet he choose to ignore me. I think this is conclusive evidence that he is scum. why?
what does a townie do if someone accuses them stating to have some really strong reason which goes beyond basic scumhunting? they would know that information is wrong, and would wonder why. The very first thing a townie would do is to vote me. Taking this to an extreme, wouldn't you vote a cop who declared a guilty on you?
but Olinea isn't town. therefore he know's I am right, and wants to abuse of the fact that I lurk(ed) (for which I'm sorry) and my post aren't generally regarded important by a lot of people (he was right after all, I don't remember anyone actually responding to my post at all). therefore he thinks it is best play to just IGNORE my accusation, which is something a townie would NEVER have done.
he was hiding behind the fact that the whole detonator-thing was just coming up, which he could easily (by role-claiming) deflect. so he hoped the pressure would fall from him (for the rest of the game).
Tasky wrote:
Olinea wrote:Is not strong reasoning, and
appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.
Olinea wrote:
I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out
-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.
contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information.
btw, false PR-information are quite rare, and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.
Olinea wrote:I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an
extremely
vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an
"Oh, you found me out? You die now"
kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.
scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.
Spoiler: For those of you who are too lazy to even read the above, here's the ultra-short version
-> Olinea avoids direct confrontation which might bring a lot of information (if he was town) and prefers to sweep every
real
suspicion against him under the rug.
-> Olinea plays to avoid suspicion instead of playing to scumhunt.
-> Olinea shields himself with a refusal to the extremely weak Detonator-case to avoid coming under suspicion from everything else.
Tasky wrote:what is weird exactly? and what does weird mean in your dictionary? don't you think doing different things in similar scenarios (not attacking a liar vs. attacking a liar) at least requires clarification?
Because his Lynch All Liars policy is clearly more nuanced than the simple "all lies are equal, all lies are scummy"; that you would try and convince him that his policy should be to find you scummy seems weird, that you would try to convince him that his current Lynch All Liars policy is wrong is fine but you misrepresented his policy to do so.
brokenscraps wrote:
Furc wagon is ridiculous, he is playing a townie Furc game.
Can you show me examples of why this is? I'm not liking furc's play so far, and to add to this his hopping on a wagon, I want to see why you think he's town.
