Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[EmpTyger]

Kise:

@Emptyger: You are basically telling everyone that lurking is antitown, which everyone already knows. But then the players you are expressing suspicion of are the ones who are being active (my pair excepted). And where are you hiding Thingyman? Him not posting makes it harder to read you both.

Thingyman redeemed himself with the whole werewolf comment.... Emp done goofed, looks like. I'm still seeing him as scum. Adding contradicting stances to doesn't hurt to affirm to me my beliefs.

Your alleged contradiction is because you're reading *Llama* instead of what I actually said. Which was:

The antitowns are ubercoordinated and have greater numbers than typical. They can easily dominate the thread and prevent the town from coordinating, prevent the town from thinking things through. Town cannot sit back and passively win this game. This isn't that kind of setup. This setup requires almost every protown player to actively compete. At least, if they want the the town to win.

The goal is to distinguish between who is promoting that kind of play, and who is reacting to it. The *last* thing I think we should do is lynch based on a single criteria, like lurking. That's Llama's interpretation.


Antitowns are sowing confusion. Protowns are being confused by it.
Lurking could indicate either. Which is why protowns need to actively think about what's going on and analyze the full context. Instead of the knee-jerk, thoughtless, jump-on-whatever-the-last-thing-said play which the antitowns are promoting.


PO:
...which is why I'm reading Baby Spice/Kdca and Mariyta/Tragedy. (And why I'm hesitating so much over you.) They've yesterday or today shown signs of thinking about context instead of maintaining an antitown status quo.

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.


silavor:
The short version is, the antitowns are not going to go out of their way to turn this game around. They won't fight to lynch an antitown when they can just go after an easier lynch of either an innocent or the other guilty faction.


vezok:
Dearie, this is a team game. If there aren't enough townspeople committed to trying to play better than the antitowns, it doesn't matter how I play.

[Baby Spice]

Mari/Trag aren't lurkers, though. What's the cliffsnotes reasoning for them?

We're semi-active so that they can't be accused of lurker hunting, and we're not as difficult a target as, say, you, Reck, GI, etc.

<3 Mariyta.

Anyways, Mariyta and I would chill out at QT at random points, though. Not as often anyways...?
Isn't it still recommended to lynch DBE until she becomes more active and more reasonable. I don't get her at all (Like Werewolf..Wait, no Prod for him?)

Shouldn't DBE have a prod by now?
I forgot.

Didn't DBE just V/LA like 10 minutes before your post?

For gods sake, are you even reading the game

Let alone the whole concept of lynch someone (ie: remove them from the game) so they become more active in the game.

wtf



I blame Llama for this.

I think the antitowns will be:

Snip

D. Trying to do things that look unbelievable from scum.

I think the scum have taken this as a challange because so many scummy people are doing it.

[Purple Orange]

Mari/Trag aren't lurkers, though. What's the cliffsnotes reasoning for them?

I gave you some links, too. I think they all go to the right place. :/

* Join both the kcda and umbrage wagons yesterday. (At 3/(traj stays off but maryita mentions agreement votes) and 8/9 votes, respectively. I think. sensfan has not been giving enough votecounts ).

* The Umbrage/q21 wagon. Even though they're giving reasons for their cases, like I'd been yelling at people to do, I find most of their reasons curd, and I feel like they're searching for a plausible excuse to hop on the Umbrage wagon. The first bit (reasons are crud) I can objectively argue about. The last bit (that they're searching for a reason to get on the wagon) I can't, but it's there every time I read it.

* Mariyta's positions on kcdaspice. Voting for them D1, to giving the benefit of the doubt Day 2, to jumping on them as soon as Ice says "let's lynch some lurkers!", and back to "kcda's just lazy" after a couple people have expressed reservations about the wagon. And now back to "oh they're scum, we should kill them." (The latest switchback I actually find understandable, however).

* Mariyta echoing any accusation that's brought up against people she's decided she wants to get lynched, even if there's evident inconsistencies with her previous positions. Like, say, "it would be good if kcda ran his stuff past BS, so that we don't do a mislynch over bad play," which turns into "a supporting reason that kcdaspice are scum is because kcda wants to run his stuff past BS" right after Reck says it's a reason they're scum. Or "oooh, I like this lurker lynch thing!" which turns into "oooh! trying to lynch lurkers is scummy!" right after Reck/Anti says it's a reason Espy/me are possibly scum.

* And on the lurker/easy target thing, since Mariyta wants to make a big deal about it: aside from Umbrage/q21, who that they only jumped on when the guys were buried under a mountain of votes, Mariyta/Traj's punching bags have been llama/darla and kcda/spice. And Mariyta risks coming after Espy/me, who she says she's had suspicion on (but never mentioned till now), only when she has nothing to lose. Because we already voted for them.

I admit I wasn't too sold on Espy's pick at first...he had a way scummier Day 1 read on them than me. But given the reaction to the pressure, I'd say he made a darn good call.

[Tragedy]

@PO: About jumping on the Umbrage/Q21 wagon when it was full, it wasn't intentional until Umbrage made it worse for him. I started a bit later in the pages, after analyzing them all, I immediately found them scummy. Pretty much his Umb-RAGE made it a bit problematic, though.

Oh right, I forgot.

About Werewolf: He's just ultimately lurking, his play isn't manly enough to impress my boredom. Didn't he mention he was going to catch up on Last

SUNDAY

? I feel we've been ignoring him for a bit too long, though. Werewolf's a good ninja without balls, damn right.

[werewolf555]

@PO: About jumping on the Umbrage/Q21 wagon when it was full, it wasn't intentional until Umbrage made it worse for him. I started a bit later in the pages, after analyzing them all, I immediately found them scummy. Pretty much his Umb-RAGE made it a bit problematic, though.

Oh right, I forgot.

About Werewolf: He's just ultimately lurking, his play isn't manly enough to impress my boredom. Didn't he mention he was going to catch up on Last

SUNDAY

? I feel we've been ignoring him for a bit too long, though. Werewolf's a good ninja without balls, damn right.

Not really.
I just look at these huge walls of text and i'm like
TL;DR

[Tragedy]

Welcome back.

[werewolf555]

Kise:

@Emptyger: You are basically telling everyone that lurking is antitown, which everyone already knows. But then the players you are expressing suspicion of are the ones who are being active (my pair excepted). And where are you hiding Thingyman? Him not posting makes it harder to read you both.

Thingyman redeemed himself with the whole werewolf comment.... Emp done goofed, looks like. I'm still seeing him as scum. Adding contradicting stances to doesn't hurt to affirm to me my beliefs.

Your alleged contradiction is because you're reading *Llama* instead of what I actually said. Which was:

The antitowns are ubercoordinated and have greater numbers than typical. They can easily dominate the thread and prevent the town from coordinating, prevent the town from thinking things through. Town cannot sit back and passively win this game. This isn't that kind of setup. This setup requires almost every protown player to actively compete. At least, if they want the the town to win.

The goal is to distinguish between who is promoting that kind of play, and who is reacting to it. The *last* thing I think we should do is lynch based on a single criteria, like lurking. That's Llama's interpretation.


Antitowns are sowing confusion. Protowns are being confused by it.
Lurking could indicate either. Which is why protowns need to actively think about what's going on and analyze the full context. Instead of the knee-jerk, thoughtless, jump-on-whatever-the-last-thing-said play which the antitowns are promoting.


PO:
...which is why I'm reading Baby Spice/Kdca and Mariyta/Tragedy. (And why I'm hesitating so much over you.) They've yesterday or today shown signs of thinking about context instead of maintaining an antitown status quo.

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.


silavor:
The short version is, the antitowns are not going to go out of their way to turn this game around. They won't fight to lynch an antitown when they can just go after an easier lynch of either an innocent or the other guilty faction.


vezok:
Dearie, this is a team game. If there aren't enough townspeople committed to trying to play better than the antitowns, it doesn't matter how I play.

[Purple Orange]

So basically the people you want to lynch are the lurkers? Seriously?

Yeah, I agree. That's pretty weak.

I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list down

based on your OWN reads

.

Did you miss those pairs the first time I listed them or something?

It's an attempted solution (probably quite poorly presented) to the "damn, scumreads are hard to find this game (and I can't get them lynched when I do have them)" problem that several people seem to be running into. We've seen DBE/llama lynch, a kcda/spice lynch, and very possibly this mariyta/traj lynch stall out. Scumhunting itself stalls for days at a time, and no one does anything -- maybe because they have nothing new to bring to the table? How do you break out of that?

Should an utter stalemate happen (again), because no one can get their favorite pairs lynched, and scumhunting stalls out,

those pairs are the ones I'm currently OK seeing lynched

, based on my last read of the thread. I have my preferred lynches out of those...LOOK AT WHERE MY VOTE IS, dammit. Look at where I've said I'd like to go for silv/haylen. But I'm not sure how picky I can afford to be. Sometimes a damn flip needs to happen before the game can actually move again. Think of it like a triage ranking or something.

Though it looks like that scenario has been staved off for now, which is by far my preferred solution.

[werewolf555]

Mod: I put the photo into the quote by accident, please fix

[GreyICE]

Sens: Please rearrange Werewolf and Mist into a scumteam so we can policy lynch.

[Nero Cain]

Sens: Please rearrange Werewolf and Mist into a scumteam so we can policy lynch.

BEST. QUOTE. EVER.

[Purple Orange]

@PO: You want to lynch me because I don't have a whole lot of activity in the thread? Or do you actually have any form of reasoning that isn't policy?

No, actually. You post good content when you show up. I like you. I'd be sad to lose you.

It's your lover that makes me OK with killing you. I played with town-wolf in one of my first games here. He didn't post much, and he made a terse and bad case or two. But they made a crazy kind of coherent sense in his own mind, and golly he at least made them and took positions. (I supported his lynch because I thought he was overeager newb scum). This game? Well...maybe his ISO 6 counts??

I'm not entirely sure how to evaluate this. But you I read as a good poster who's null. Wolf I have as possible scum. So you made the list. :/ I don't think you're a terribly good lynch. But it's one I'm OK with.

============

Lol PO now wants to lynch me lollolo. If that entire lynch-list is made up of minimalist posters, I'm tunneling on PO. I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list down

based on your OWN reads

.

I've been OK lynching you as of a couple days ago, when I reread you as null instead of town. And when I hit a mafia discussion post talking about how you take notes as town, and act more on the fly and opportunistically as scum. (The fact you say you're not paying as much attention to this game as you usually do, though, I think skews pretty much anything I might be able to draw from that). I'd almost welcome you tunneling on me, because I might be able to get a better read on you. And why is PP taking two weeks to read and comment on this game??

In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?

Why isn't Emp an option for you today?

Because I think he's town? He's being damnedly contrary, he's taking initiative and acting vs. reacting, and he's willing to rock boats and make people pull their hair out because of stuff he believes is right. (Also, Thingy read town when he was here). There's a scenario or two in which I think Emp could be scum, but I'm not willing to go there unless other flips start indicating that possibility.

[EmpTyger]

werewolf:
What do you think about Reckoner?
Who do you think is guilty?


PO:
Why are Grey/Antihero on your "don't want to lynch today" list?

Also, again:

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.

[Mist7676]

Sorry guys. Got bad news for you. I'm not scum

[vezokpiraka]

How can I get so lucky at lovers. This one is awful.

@Emp: Why are you still fighting about the IM thing? Stop it. It's gone already.

[Mariyta]

* And on the lurker/easy target thing, since Mariyta wants to make a big deal about it: aside from Umbrage/q21, who that they only jumped on when the guys were buried under a mountain of votes, Mariyta/Traj's punching bags have been llama/darla and kcda/spice. And Mariyta risks coming after Espy/me, who she says she's had suspicion on (but never mentioned till now), only when she has nothing to lose. Because we already voted for them.

Nearly everything in #877 is right. I don't see what's really wrong with anything we/I've done. Except for this part. I've suspected Llamarble since the beginning and it has nothing to do with lurking. I've posted cases on him. Go read them. As for voting you/Esp, I've already answered that. No, I haven't gone to find the post(s) that I didn't like because I haven't had time. I hope to do it today.

[Charlie]

This is impossible to understand without first getting some context. I've to read up about 10 pages first. Carry on, good people.
@Kise: Hi. Nope, I don't think so.

[Kise]

Your alleged contradiction is because you're reading *Llama* instead of what I actually said. Which was:

The antitowns are ubercoordinated and have greater numbers than typical. They can easily dominate the thread and prevent the town from coordinating, prevent the town from thinking things through. Town cannot sit back and passively win this game. This isn't that kind of setup. This setup requires almost every protown player to actively compete. At least, if they want the the town to win.

Llama, is this what you were referring to? I have no clue what it is you were referring to, hence why I said it

looks

like Emp done goofed. (Vote stays)

Mod: I put the photo into the quote by accident, please fix

No, it's funnier that way.

In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?

Well, dear, it's only proper to want to lynch 4 players that you feel share a scum QT. As opposed to, you know, your 14 player lynch-list. If the majority of players are inactive, then the majority are obviously town. I have fallen into the inactive category so my

current

line of thinking is that townies are somewhere in the 90's% range of those other inactives... if not 100%. Purp, I'm not sure how long you've consistently played mafia, but I know better that lurkers and people who barely contribute (or fail to contribute completely: werewolf) are NOT always scum. It's a matter of you actually attempting to figure out why each player would do certain actions as both town and scum, then take note of it, then weigh which of the two viewpoints reads stronger compared with interactions of other players - This, instead of lynching minimal players in lazy fashion.

I found time to go back and look at the q21 lynch... I'd think it had enough fuel from townies attacking that pair that at least half of the scum (4-/+ players) would stay off of it. Of course, you, Esp & Emp were not voting q21 so guess what I'm thinking.

[Purple Orange]

PO:
Why are Grey/Antihero on your "don't want to lynch today" list?

* Day 2 Grey = a Grey I recognize.

* Kinder interpretation of Grey vs. Umbrage. I see why Grey went stupid-crazy on Umbrage's ass.

* Grey/Anti did more to keep things moving and cause people to post today than practically anyone else. This leans me to a town interpretation. I'm with llama that smashing things up (and potentially drawing negative attention to oneself in the process) is more town than not. You seem to think the scum are this organized force of doom trying to dominate the thread. I'm of the opinion that the scum are likely playing it safe and going with the flow.

Grey got crazy aggressive after being called out for (comparative) passiveness. Grey acts more like himself after I say he's not acting like himself. Unrelated coincidence or not, this naggles me, so IGMEOY and all that rot. But they're really the only things I have against the pair of them right now, when all's said and done. They're being townie enough to outweigh that. They're getting reactions out of people. I don't want them dead at this point.

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.

I'd said it in 733 ("if Reck's telling the truth about the AIM conversation, he's probably NOT scum...however, blah blah sorta implausible theory about scum still managing to think there was a nightkill") and 779 ("I can't dismiss the matter because the IM conversation is inextricably linked to Reck's alignment"). Have changed my views on this matter, and wanted to make a note of that. (Nothing says Reck couldn't have looked at the role PMs/setup after the point at which Kise said this conversation happened. And saying, "I never looked at the role PMs/setup" is an understandable lie, unlike "liar, I never had that conversation you say we had.")

[Purple Orange]

Except for this part. I've suspected Llamarble since the beginning and it has nothing to do with lurking. I've posted cases on him. Go read them. As for voting you/Esp, I've already answered that. No, I haven't gone to find the post(s) that I didn't like because I haven't had time. I hope to do it today.

I have. Disagree with your interp of llama's first posts, but they did safely sheep kcda yesterday. Agree that llama's posts the other day were about his first proactive bit of anything (though I think he brought up a new point or two against me and Espy way back when).

And I know you've been at their throats since the beginning...congrats on the consistency. But can you make up your mind about DBE/Llama? Are they easy targets/lurkers or aren't they? I'd put them, meh, midrange, but as you ranked them with the lurkers/easy targets I figured I'd take you at your word.

I believe you when you say you've had a scummish read on us for a while, and that you need a bit of time to pull a case together. What I was pointing out was that you've gone after targets YOU rank as "easy" the whole game (well, ok,

I

ranked a piled Umbrage as easy), until maybe just now when you took a swipe at me/Espy. Right after we voted for you and you had nothing to lose, because we were already attacking you and drawing attention to you.

As scum, you want to take out town, and it's easier to do that if you go after targets that won't fight back as hard. The three I listed would rip them a new one. (I have my doubts about the sure townieness of one of those teams, but I haven't decided if it's a valid doubt yet, so I'll refrain from arguing that point.)

I even forgot to throw vezok on that earlier list of your targets.

Have you actually been watching Grey/Anti? They stubbornly refused to rip me anything. They rolled their eyes and ignored me and did townie stuff and told me to do my homework, until I had to go, "yeeeeeah...they're still possibly scum based on these two particular juxtapositions of events, but even in the midst of weak cases, that's a

really

weak case, and there's a lot pointing the other way. Dammit, for now they're town."

I dunno what Reck would do, though he's been flipping out on anyone that's called him scum. Will probably find out in the near future.

[Mariyta]

And I know you've been at their throats since the beginning...congrats on the consistency. But can you make up your mind about DBE/Llama? Are they easy targets/lurkers or aren't they? I'd put them, meh, midrange, but as you ranked them with the lurkers/easy targets I figured I'd take you at your word.

Darla is definitely an easy target. She's an easy target every game. I think she might be the Dean at the Academy of Lurkaliciousness. But Llama has started to play.

I believe you when you say you've had a scummish read on us for a while, and that you need a bit of time to pull a case together. What I was pointing out was that you've gone after targets YOU rank as "easy" the whole game (well, ok,

I

ranked a piled Umbrage as easy), until maybe just now when you took a swipe at me/Espy. Right after we voted for you and you had nothing to lose, because we were already attacking you and drawing attention to you.

I'll get to that case tomorrow. I've been lazy today. Blame the Ice Road Truckers marathon. As for switching my vote to you, there was nothing happening. As I said, you wanted to play, so I decided to play. And we got some valuable info from it in Baby's wagon vote. She apparently doesn't like me going after her scum buddies.

As scum, you want to take out town, and it's easier to do that if you go after targets that won't fight back as hard. The three I listed would rip them a new one. (I have my doubts about the sure townieness of one of those teams, but I haven't decided if it's a valid doubt yet, so I'll refrain from arguing that point.)

I even forgot to throw vezok on that earlier list of your targets.

I don't think I've mentioned vezok. That would be Tragedy's scum pick, so you'll have to ask her about it.

Have you actually been watching Grey/Anti? They stubbornly refused to rip me anything. They rolled their eyes and ignored me and did townie stuff and told me to do my homework, until I had to go, "yeeeeeah...they're still possibly scum based on these two particular juxtapositions of events, but even in the midst of weak cases, that's a

really

weak case, and there's a lot pointing the other way. Dammit, for now they're town."

I have been watching them, actually. Quite closely. Antihero is quieter than I'm used to, and Grey's play gives me bad juju vibes. But I have nothing solid to call them on.

[Antihero]

LET'S TURN UP THE VOLUME THEN

CAPSSSSSSSSS RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE

Just kidding. I think I would rather jam a pen into my temple than write like that.

But the bad feeling is mutual, just in case you care Mari.

[Purple Orange]

In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?

Well, dear, it's only proper to want to lynch 4 players that you feel share a scum QT. As opposed to, you know, your 14 player lynch-list.

So it was the "if one's innocent the other is guilty" deal that that bothered you? And...um...the sheer numbers of mine?

If the majority of players are inactive, then the majority are obviously town. I have fallen into the inactive category so my

current

line of thinking is that townies are somewhere in the 90's% range of those other inactives... if not 100%.

So...minority action = mafia? "I'm doing this and I'm town, therefore everyone who acts like me is town?" What kind of reasoning is THAT?

I mean, mine might not be much better, but it's more along the lines of: The mafia will be trying to blend in with the town. They try to do what the majority of the town is doing, or they'll stand out and get noticed and die. When town's active, they need to be active, even though lurking is usually more in their interests. When the town is coasting along doing nothing...golly, guess what? They can go coast along doing nothing, draw no attention to themselves, and blend right in, and survive.

Are you saying that because they're in a 4-person QT, they'll have more motivation to stick around, and thus will be less likely to go completely inactive and replace out?

That

I can understand, and may have to think about.

Purp, I'm not sure how long you've consistently played mafia, but I know better that lurkers and people who barely contribute (or fail to contribute completely: werewolf) are NOT always scum. It's a matter of you actually attempting to figure out why each player would do certain actions as both town and scum, then take note of it, then weigh which of the two viewpoints reads stronger compared with interactions of other players - This, instead of lynching minimal players in lazy fashion.

Of course I know that. You guys are the ones putting words in my mouth saying that I'm going after people

because they're lurking

. PP is the only person I said I'd be willing to lynch for his lurking, and that was because of the insane lengths of it....which I think scum would be more likely to do than town, if they were happily not under suspicion.

When someone posts fewer posts, it often makes it harder for me to read them, though I've tried my best. And again, I'm also currently of the "scum are probably lazy and going with the flow" school of thought, not the "scum are acting as an organized force of doom" school of thought. Any correlation between lurkiness and people I'm ok lynching will be based on those factors. If it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting, fine, it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting. There's not much I can do about that.

[Mariyta]

@Antihero: You mean you think I'm scum? That's nothing new. I usually think you're town, though, which is why I'm worried this game.

[Antihero]

@Antihero: You mean you think I'm scum? That's nothing new. I usually think you're town, though, which is why I'm worried this game.

That's because I am usually town. Except for when I'm not.

Your scumminess is the unfortunate byproduct of Tragedy's.