Open 289 - Hard Boiled - Game over.

[Ythan]

And after reading your more substantial Umbrage post, I think you're playing up minor townish points and being noncommital on larger scummish points.

[Umbrage]

Chainsaw is null unless you can prove that CS is scum (or if you can show that both CS and Snake are defending each other). I'm not saying that there isn't any chainsaw going on, but it's difficult to prove that he's attacking you to defend CS rather than just attacking you for scummy behavior.

Call it whatever you want, it's scummy. Think about it. He know CS is town from page one.

Well, you couldn't decide on whether or not you voted for CS for a serious reason or if you voted for him just to bait people into defending him. You also can't decide on why you think CS asked you the question (if he had a make-you-look-bad motive, you wouldn't have dropped your case on him so easily). Still, it seems you flip-flopped a lot less than my memory has led me to believe, or else I'm just not noticing it in your ISO.

I already answered that. I didn't know why CS was asking me to give reads. I had three choices.

1: Say I didn't have any good reads, and look stupid, maybe even scummy.
2: Make up some weak page one reads and end up eating my words later in the game, looking scummy.
3: Call CS out as scum, get us out of RVS, and maybe catch some scum along the way.

I still think I made the right call.

Krazy, Umbrage is not being run up because of the hysterics.

Yeah, I noticed your vote was on me. Mind explaining why?

[Ythan]

I made a post against you and said I was leaning most toward voting you over other players but I wanted to wait until you had an opportunity to respond before I did so. Once you passed up that opportunity I placed my vote.

[implosion]

Cut down on personal attacks. Now. As far as I can tell, and it's freaking late so I'll do a more thorough look through tomorrow, there have been a lot of them. There's no place for personal attacks in a mafia game. Stop it.

[iamausername]

Unvote

VOTE: DarthYoshi

Most of the people who are actually posting look like town. He does not.

[Ythan]

Vague. Who do you consider to be actually posting, who among them do you consider

not

to look like town?

[iamausername]

Who do you consider to be actually posting

Krazy
Umbrage
Ythan
ConSpiracy
Snake Eyes
Vordark
Abelcain
DarthYoshi

who among them do you consider

not

to look like town?

DarthYoshi

[Krazy]

Would you please explain why he does not?

[Ythan]

Krazy and I are of like mind, that is the next question I was going to ask and one I would also like to hear the answer to.

[Quaroath]

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

[Umbrage]

So the reason that you singled out that xtoxm (going to call this guy tom from here on out so I don't have to think about the x's every time I type his name) post was to look for reactions? Why that post? Why the way you did it? I want your thought process going into that comment.

Is that what you meant? I'm not really sure what to make of Xtoxm. I've never seen anyone handle RVS that way before. I wanted to make a note of it, if he suddenly came back and started bandwagoning, it would look really bad. I thought about what would happen if I brought it up, since someone was sure to wonder why I had. I figured that paranoid or opportunistic scum would likely accuse me of attacking him, or he might freak out, so I was sure to make my note of him absolutely neutral, and see what happened next. Thinking back, it does seem like a strange thing to do, but once I thought of it, I was blinded by my own cleverness and had to do it, if that makes sense. I just couldn't resist.

[DarthYoshi]

Wow, you people talk a lot.

Krazy:

AKA: ur a hypocrite, but also tl;dr. Usually you can make one criticism or the other, Darth, not both

Why not both?

Krazy:

but I also encourage you to actually back up your accusation.

Do you really want me to compile a list of every single player who saw the irony in you making a tunneling accusation?

Krazy:

tl;dr is anti-town too.

Tl:dr had less to do with it. I didn’t read those posts because I like feeling happy about life.

Krazy:

Should we have a "who can be more anti-town" contest?

No. I’m pretty sure you’d kick my ass.

Krazy:

but is your case ever going to be anything other than tl;dr?

My motives for voting you also included the tunneling on Ythan (including, at that point, no desire to scumhunt on anyone else) as well as suggesting a policy lynch for no reason at the outset of D1. All in all, very anti-town play.

Krazy:

How about this Darth: Instead of QQing about my quote war with him, why don't you ask him a few more questions yourself? Again, both you and Ythan can QQ about me "tunneling" on him, but that doesn't excuse you from not engaging him at all.

I did. I asked him when we could expect non-Krazy related content from him, and he basically shrugged off the question. Which I didn’t like. I’m paying attention to everyone, not just you.

All of that being said—I actually am liking your attempts to scumhunt on the lurkers, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there is a scum or two there, just hanging out while the town points fingers at one another. Your responses to me are such that I am fine with my vote remaining where it is for the time being, however.

@Xtoxm—what about Ythan’s exchange looked complacent for him? I don’t know what ‘complacent’ Ythan looks like versus ‘not complacent’ Ythan. Also, thoughts on the Umbrage wagon, pleeze.

@Ythan--do you have any suspects after Umbrage? If so, who and why?

@Umbrage—I have a couple problems with your #159. First, if your case on Snake Eyes is “getting stronger,” then why is your vote on TBL and not Snake Eyes?

Also,

When Snake Eyes attacked me, he did so under the assumption that CS is town, an assumption I see no basis for, and

for which he has provided none.

Emphasis mine.

Snake's #134:

in a way that was likely to bring attention to him. There's little scum motivation to do so, but there is a pretty clear town motive.

Did you just miss this or what? What do you think of this response?

In other news…

Krazy:

Would you please explain why he does not?

^This. Once LurkerUsername explains why he thinks I don’t look like town, I’ll be happy to respond.

And as a parting shot, this thread needs more Xotxm, TBL, Quaraoth, and Iamausername.

[Vordark]

I don't understand why you would immediately assume ConSpiracy had some ulterior motives, as asking questions in early game can only help move the game forward.

Well, my questioning ConSpiracy's motives could only help move the game forward, so what's the problem?

I think Snake's question here was valid, but no answer.

I read this as an answer. What sort of answer were you looking for here?

When I voted ConSpiracy, I made sure to let everyone know it was a serious vote. I was setting myself up as bait, and you bit.

I threw out that bit about xtoxm because I wanted to see who would either attack him, or come to his aid. Snake did the latter. Same basic principle with the vote on you.

Two explanatory posts for the xtoxm comment, I want these to be easy to find so I'm including them here. I find it odd that you say you wanted to see who would attack or defend him when you said you didn't find his behavior scummy in the first place. Also, the vote on Con was the same thing? That seemed different. It was an actual attack, wasn't it?

This seems to indicate that who attacks or defends a person showing non-scummy behavior isn't useful. Can you explain what you meant by this?

[Umbrage]

I have a couple problems with your #159. First, if your case on Snake Eyes is “getting stronger,” then why is your vote on TBL and not Snake Eyes?

Because I think it'll do more good on TBL. Maybe get him to actually post some content. I know how scummy Snake Eyes is, I want to know how scummy TBL is.

[ConSpiracy]

@ Ythan

Though I don't really like the RVS myself, don't you think there has to be one? I have played one game without a RVS and it started very lurky. The RVS starts discussion.

It's how the game naturally starts. Do you think I have a problem with it?

Well, I thought that, because you didn't want to participate in the RVS.
Why didn't you random vote then?

I must say I already lost interest in this game due to the huge walls about Umbrage and the fight between Ythan and Krazy and I skipped most of the last 3/4 pages. I will have a reread this weekend and maybe earlier, but it is very boring to get through these long arguments just to find something worth noting. Please stop the bickering about useless things.

[Krazy]

Darth, I'm going to let most of your comments stand, and your questions seemed rhetorical (the one maybe not being the "why not both?" and if you actually wanted to discuss that let me know). I'm heading to class now and will re-read the other posts from this morning once I get back.

[Snake Eyes]

The vote and my scumread on you came at different times.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon

on someone I don't have a scumread on

, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you?

^ the technical psychological term for the bolded is A SCUM SLIP.

More accurate would be a misrepresentation, as usual. Here's the quote in context, pay attention to bolds:

If you think a bandwagon is the best way to get out of RVS,

then why not vote ConSpiracy with me

? Even if you think he's town, it doesn't matter. It's just a wagon, and it gets us out of RVS. Unless you think that your page 2 reads are going to hold for the rest of the game, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to bandwagon him. It'd be a hell of a lot easier than wagoning me. But you weren't interested in a wagon to leave RVS, you wanted a wagon that would grow, and maybe turn into a lynch. And that is scummy.

It's less scummy to

join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on

, than it is to pressure you after you've made a questionable post, and then push a wagon on you when I do have a scumread on you? Also, it's hard to wagon you, yet I want a wagon that would grow to a lynch? How does this make any sense?

In other words, I say I don't find CS scummy, that I find your post worth pursuing, and later find you scummy. Which is, shockingly, what I've been saying all along.

Umbrage seems to be losing it but I still fail to see how his hysterics translates into scumplay. Insofar as he has been hysterical, it's difficult saying one player has been scummier than another in joining the wagon on him, since most are making good criticisms of him. However, it seems probable that at least one person on the Umbrage wagon is scum. Even if Umbrage is scum himself, his position in this game could lead to early wagoning, however I do not currently believe that to be the case. But since there so much room to make compelling criticism of Umbrage, I don't think any scum player has needed to stretch themselves to join the wagon. I will probably re-read the wagon on him once more people have caught up on the game or there is a flip. Continuing to grill Umbrage only makes it easier for lurkers to join the wagon on him when they do return to the game.

His over the top hysterics were giving me pause as well, as stuff like that is much more common on town than scum. On the other hand, some people just play more aggressively and emotionally, and after taking a quick ISO skim at some of the other games he's played, his yelling at the screen here is not an isolated incident. In Mini 1108 he did it as scum and in Mini 1102 he did it as town. So I'm viewing it as a null-tell in this case.

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.


Might move my vote around soonish if the lurkers don't start contributing. Xtoxm and TBL in particular, who are both clearly reading the thread, but have said hardly anything.

[Umbrage]

In other words, I say I don't find CS scummy, that I find your post worth pursuing, and later find you scummy. Which is, shockingly, what I've been saying all along.

That's what you've been saying. But it's not what you were thinking.

It's less scummy to join a bandwagon on someone I don't have a scumread on,

But that's what you claim you DID do! You joined a bandwagon on someone you didn't have a scumread on, or so you say. So why would you say that?

AND DON'T USE THAT FUCKING RIVERTOWN GAME AS META, THE PLAYERS THERE WERE SMOKING SHIT AND I WAS THE ONLY RATIONAL HUMAN BEING IN THE GAME.

Also, I think your assumption that there's scum on the wagon is a bit premature, as there's no way to know if Umbrage is town. I'd even say that given how scummy Umbrage looks, this wagon could have grown a lot faster, if Umbrage was actually town. It would be very easy for scum to add their votes to the Umbrage wagon, if he's town.

Xtoxm - 0
Krazy - 1 (Abelcain)
Umbrage - 5 (iamausername, ConSpiracy, Snake Eyes, Vordark, Ythan)
Ythan - 0
ConSpiracy - 1 (DarthYoshi)
TheBigLebowski - 1 (Krazy)
Snake Eyes - 1 (Umbrage)
Vordark - 1 (TheBigLebowski)
Quaroath - 0
Abelcain - 0
iamausername - 0
DarthYoshi - 1 (Quaroath)
No lynch - 0
Not voting: Xtoxm.

With 12 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch.

iamausername
ConSpiracy
Vordark
Ythan

You really think there isn't scum on my wagon? Do you mean then that each of the above is town? I asked you why you thought ConSpiracy was town a GAZILLION TIMES, and I still have not gotten an answer. WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE YOUR TOWN READS?

[DarthYoshi]

Umbrage--Iamusername's vote is on me, not you.

[DarthYoshi]

EBWOP: nevermind, that is an outdated votecount.

[Abelcain]

@iamausername: You need to post

reasons

and have more to contribute than just direct answers to questions posed to you. Get in the game.

prod avoidance, just finished a 44 hours work weekend fri-sun, will catch up/post when conscious in morning.

Quaroath's last two posts have been placed only to avoid getting prodded and have contained no content. I think he needs some encouragement.

Unvote

Vote: Quaroath

I know how scummy Snake Eyes is, I want to know how scummy TBL is.

This sounds like you've already decided that TBL is scum with so little content from him.

But that's what you claim you DID do! You joined a bandwagon on someone you didn't have a scumread on, or so you say. So why would you say that?

Having a scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy. If someone did something really scummy once, but otherwise you felt like they were town, you'd have a scum read on them for the scummy thing but you'd still have town read overall.

AND DON'T USE THAT FUCKING RIVERTOWN GAME AS META, THE PLAYERS THERE WERE SMOKING SHIT AND I WAS THE ONLY RATIONAL HUMAN BEING IN THE GAME.

It's nice to know that you get like this just about any time people don't give as much weight to your arguments as you think they deserve.



Another post later tonight or tomorrow, I have class now and the professor checks to make sure we're doing our work on our computers.

[Ythan]

@Ythan--do you have any suspects after Umbrage? If so, who and why?

Not exactly. I have no outstanding questions that have not been satisfactorily answered. I started my individual rereads pretty early in the game, and Umbrage was the only one who stuck out at me. I'm not particularly alarmed by anything going on at the moment from other players, at least not from a scummy-suspicion point of view.

[Ythan]

I read this as an answer. What sort of answer were you looking for here?

It's not an answer, it's just turning the question back on the questioner.

This seems to indicate that who attacks or defends a person showing non-scummy behavior isn't useful. Can you explain what you meant by this?

He said he wanted to see who would attack or defend the point, but he had not made an accusation. I can see the "Will someone attack him for this thing I said" side, although is itself a whole other can of worms, but the defense side not at all.

Well, I thought that, because you didn't want to participate in the RVS.
Why didn't you random vote then?

It's like voting. Real world voting. The RVS stage produces content for me or other players to analyze, but me doing it myself isn't going to make much of a difference. It gets the game moving but if one or two players doesn't place a random vote it doesn't make a difference in my mind.

[Krazy]

Rereading a couple isos. I have to agree with Ythan that V's #62 is annoying, both to read and to reread.

CS says he gets bored of the Umbrage discussion because of the wall posts and also gets bored of my exchange with Ythan; like Darth, basically gives a tl;dr, UNLIKE Darth, goes on to imply that Umbrage et.al is also tl;dr.

I also notice that CS's interest in the game basically seems to drop off simultaneously with V unvoting him.

@CS: Aside from the Umbrage wagon you helped form and then got bored of, I'm not really sure I at this point can characterize you as not also active lurking. Among the Umbrage wagon, if I were to guess that there was someone scum on it (which there is, admittedly, no guarantee), you would be my first guess.

Parts of this post have bothered me for a while, but moreso now that he seems to have ceased actively pursuing the Umbrage wagon:

Think further

OK, so my vote on ConSpiracy is about as serious as you can get for page 1 reads. Xtoxm stands out as odd to me, he didn't random vote, he didn't really say hello or anything, he just answered the questions. I'm not saying it's scum or town, it just looks odd.

Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?

"think further" = make my case for me?

"Great, post. Are you going to point out things that are scummy or only things that you see as null?"

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

I would test my theory that CS's interest in the game is directly proportional to the number of votes on him, but I haven't quite gotten all I want out of my vote on TBL yet.

[Umbrage]

This sounds like you've already decided that TBL is scum with so little content from him.

Active lurking is scummy, no matter how you shake it. But how deep does the rabbit hole go?

Having a scumread =/= necessarily thinking you're scummy.

What is this I don't even

--> Although players should point out scummy behavior, observing false-positives and asserting them as null is still a position to take and a contribution to the town (although whether that's actually what was going on here is debateable).

Um, yeah, that's totally what I did.