Mini 1122: Mafia.Exe Game Over

[Krazy]

Even if it is, PGO is not.

[Llamarble]

Eh, I kind of feel like scum would be bussing in this situation since Krazy is pretty clearly unsalvageable, especially long term.
TBM's reasoning isn't profoundly awful either; a claim of "I am cop with guilty" that gets the response "Liar! I am doctor!" without thorough context-analysis would suggest believing the cop.

One shot is absolutely allowed in normals; oneshot vigs are quite popular in fact. And each mini normal is allowed one nonnormal role which PGO would make sense as. But thanks for clarifying why your scumteam was sufficiently confident in GreyIce not being PGO to RB him in spite of his claim.

[Krazy]

I laid the groundwork for a PGO claim early in the day D1, then claimed it at the end of the day when it became apparent I was a good candidate for the Night Kill

The only reason I can possibly see you doing this is to discourage scans by a cop (and if anyone realized it isn't even possible, leaving open the possibility of downplaying it as simply discouraging the mafia), and to possibly mount a counter-lynch on a cop should you ever be discovered. Further, it would be a much better excuse for why you were "conveniently" alive come no-lynch-loss scenarios. And better yet, you'd be guaranteed to have no cross-claims--since cross-claims themselves would be impossible!

And should it at that point be noticed that PGO isn't allowed, you could then fall-back on doctor. It's exactly the same level of creative positioning that has championed the town to your convoluted defense.

And Llama... really? Really?

Again: That still doesn't answer the question, if I REALLY believed GreyIce was the doctor, why would I simply not have killed him last night? Why would I instead target one of the people in the game MOST LIKELY to implicate me?

"Hmm... I can choose someone that will get me lynched. OR! I can kill the doctor!"

I mean, I know there's an element of WIFOM there, but just... come on. Really?

[Krazy]

One shot is absolutely allowed in normals; oneshot vigs are quite popular in fact. And each mini normal is allowed one nonnormal role which PGO would make sense as. But thanks for clarifying why your scumteam was sufficiently confident in GreyIce not being PGO to RB him in spite of his claim.

And thanks for explaining how you and GreyIce would give the claim plausibility come no-lynch-loss.

[GreyICE]

Yep, Marble is town. You're not good enough to pull that flail on a buddy.

Wanna interact with Thebuttonman a little? I'd find it very educational.

[Neruz]

One-shot is not a modifier allowed in normal games.

Paranoid-gun owner is not a role allowed in normal games.

This is just flat out wrong.

#

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

* Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
* Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
* Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
* Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
* Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
* Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
* Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).

...

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Non-Sane Cops, Blanks/Quacks, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Scum Masons, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

One-Shot and Paranoid Gun Owner do not violate

any

of those rules. The fact that you managed to link to the wiki page in question

and still get it wrong

is pretty impressively bad.

[Neruz]

And Krazy, if you thought GreyICE's claim was impossible in the ruleset, why didn't you, oh i don't know,

call him out on it

instead of trying to hold it back like some kind of trump card?

Seriously, every post you make makes you look worse and worse.

[My Milked Eek]

Oh, game started and DRK is dead right when I have the time to play D:

At work now, posting (and there's a bit) comes tonight.

[Krazy]

* Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.

"with the exception of missed night chances" != "death by targeting a random player"

If there was a PGO, I feel like it would almost certainly have to have been revealed at game start.

And Neruz, what if GreyIce REALLY WAS a doctor? Should I call him out on his fake-claim just to draw attention to the fact that HE WAS IN FACT A DOCTOR?

Come on, give me SOME credit here. You don't call the doctor out on being the doctor, and since I could instead just investigate him at night, why would I not just figure it out that way?

[Neruz]

Also also; in Normal games there is allowed be one new or variant role,

however

i cannot see how PGO would be considered either 'new' or 'variant' as it's a very well known role, even if it was considered 'new', normal games can still have one new role in them.

So basically Krazy, your entire point about Grey's claim is complete nonsense. Flail harder.

* Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.

"with the exception of missed night chances" != "death by targeting a random player"

No Krazy, random elements means things like 50% modifiers. If PGO was not allowed, it would be listed as a role that is explicitly not allowed, it is not.

If there was a PGO, I feel like it would almost certainly have to have been revealed at game start.

You can feel like that all you want, but the rules do not require it.

And Neruz, what if GreyIce REALLY WAS a doctor? Should I call him out on his fake-claim just to draw attention to the fact that HE WAS IN FACT A DOCTOR?

What. The. Fuck.

Standard town logic would conclude that if a player lies about his roleclaim he is probably scum and at the very least should be investigated for it. If GreyICE

claims an impossible role

you absofuckinglutely call him out on it.

[Neruz]

Actually, i can clear this issue up immediately:

@Mod: Is the Paranoid Gun Owner role allowed in Normal Games?

[GreyICE]

Well, guess I have to go reveal some of the background research I did for this.

Game 934: Troubles at Smiths&Catharts
Moderator: Col.Cathart
Result: Draw

Players:
MichelSableheart replaces Locke Lamora who replaces Ythan

(One-Shot Paranoid Gun Owner)

Oh hey, it's exactly the role used the last time that showed up. From the mini-normal archives.

Sure, it's infrequent, I figured I'd get SOMETHING from the scumteam, and look. I did.

[Krazy]

Okay GreyIce, very good. You've answered the mod's question that I never got a straight answer to when I wanted to investigate you.

But what about my other question? If I believed you really were or really could be a PGO, why would I roleblock you? I WOULD DIE! Why would I not roleblock someone else in the game... like, I don't know, someone that could be the cop! Why pointlessly tempt fate?

If I didn't believe you were a PGO, why didn't I kill you?

-Either you're a PGO and roleblocking you is suicide, or you're a doc and I should just kill you.

At this point, it should be pretty clear I never believed you were a PGO. If, according to YOUR OWN CASE AGAINST ME, I believed you to be the doctor, why NOT kill you, and instead kill a random vanilla town?

I might be occasionally wrong about what can or cannot be a role (after all, you put much more work into faking it--which by now is obvious you did either way)--but that does not mean I'm so stupid I would take someone I believe to be town over someone I believe to be a doctor.

That is absurd.

[GreyICE]

No Krazy. It's absolutely clear that you are lying in thread.

I'm sure there was quite a bit of disbelief kicked around in thread. I'm sure you discussed this last night, you were probably the lynch for today anyway. Your play yesterday was that bad. The play was to claim cop with a guilty on me if you lived, and see if you could get me lynched.

Now, scum, explain something to me. How, as scum, did I manage to concoct the story that I was roleblocked and post the breadcrumbs and skeleton in the thread... before you posted your "cop" results? Did I somehow anticipate that you were a cop and chose to cop me night 1? If I did, why am I playing Mafia rather than making a fortune buying lottery tickets?

As for why the roleblock, I explained that, and that's simple enough:

Submit NK on me if I'm telling the truth = 1 dead scum, 9:2 (3 mislynches to LyLo)
Submit NK on me, I'm lying = 1 dead town ???????, 8:3 (2 mislynches to LyLo)
Submit Roleblock on me, NK DRK, I'm telling the truth = 1 dead scum, 1 dead town (2 mislynches to MyLo)
Submit Roleblock on me, NK DRK, I'm lying = you claim cop in thread, get me mislynched, accept your lynch tomorrow. 5:2 (1 mislynch to LyLo)

Since your slot was unsalvageable, submitting the NK on me was clearly worse for your team whether I'm lying or telling the truth. Roleblock me, then if you live sacrifice yourself to a claimed cop result.

It's a safe play and it's a good one. I did see it coming when the results hit though.

[Krazy]

Oh cool we've reached the point of just constantly inserting the word "scum" in front of every sentence. Really subtle, scum.

You seem to think it was a foregone conclusion I was going to be lynched today, something I don't think is even remotely close to true.

In fact, the only reason you would have been less popular of a lynch today would be if, oh, I dunno, maybe you had a relationship with your victim?

Your case is getting more and more elastic. I might have been a conceivable lynch target today before the night kill, but I only became "probable" after DRK was killed. Which is no doubt why DRK is now dead, not you.

You are mod-confirmed scum. Your defense has been very elaborate, and you are definitely smart--no doubt you wanted to claim at some point in the game you were roleblocked today no matter what happened. You are smart enough to know when you're in enough threat of being lynched today that you would kill your friend, DRK, and you're smart enough to seed roleblock claims in case something did go wrong somehow on day one. I am impressed, but unfortunately, you are still scum and you still must die.

[TheButtonmen]

Nobody is mod confirmed anything except for DRK.

More to come when I can finish my re-read and do some meta work.

[Exe]

Do you know what 12 apples makes?
A dozen.

The Wiki is very clear on the rules regarding roles in normals. Any questions you have can be answered there.

Vote Count #2

Day 2

Krazy

(4): Llamarble, GreyICE, Neruz, Hiraki,

Hiraki

(1): Nathanael,

Llamarble

(1): Mute,

GreyICE

(1): Krazy,

Xine

(0):

Neruz

(0):

Mute

(0):

Nathanael

(0):

Pappums Rat

(0):

TheButtonmen

(0):

My Milked Eek

(0):

No Lynch

(0):

Not Voting

: My Milked Eek, Xine, TheButtonmen, Pappums Rat,

With

11

alive it takes

6

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 2 is

8:00 PM EST, 3/21/11.

[pappums rat]

krazy, do you still stand by your claim that pgo is not allowed in a mini normal? greyice just proved that it is and i know from reading other games that it is allowed.

i agree with llamarble's reasoning behind why a doctor would counter claim. i will vote krazy once xine, my milked eel and nathaneal have commented on the krazy/greyice situation.

[Krazy]

pappums, I stand by my claim that I did not believe GreyIce was a PGO when I decided to investigate him.

I've been trying to get through my head what on earth GreyIce was doing with this "roleblocker" nonsense that seems to have come from nowhere, and I think I've got it.

As scum, what does GreyIce have to lose by claiming that he was roleblocked?

-If a power-role claims that they were roleblocked, then he has successfully outed another power-role.
-If no power-role claims they were roleblocked, two things is the case:

--One, either that person was not a power-role. Now that person is a confirmed vanilla town.
--Two, that person was a power-role but refuses to claim. GreyIce can then kill that person at any future point in the game and, come end-game, will be able to claim they were roleblocked last night and have no cross-claim.

In other words, for GreyIce, as scum, the profits of soft-claiming being roleblocked are basically win-win. It's slightly risky, but for his team, a relatively safe risk and highly profitable overall.

Now, let's imagine GreyIce is town. Why would he soft-claim being roleblocked before my cop claim?

--If he is town, then he has just confirmed to the scum that he is a power-role.
--If he really is a doctor, then he has just signed his own death-warrant, because there is almost certainly no one that can protect him.

In other words, according to GreyIce both claiming to be a doctor, and claiming to be have soft-claimed seeding "roleblocked", the only town explanation for that seeding is basically suicide.

[Krazy]

Seriously, no one else noticed that GreyIce's story at this point is, "Hey guys, I'm really a doctor, but I came out at the beginning of day2 saying 'HEY GUYS I WAS ROLEBLOCKED LAST NIGHT CAUSE I'M REALLY THE DOCTOR!' HEY MAFIA LOOK AT ME, DELICIOUS LITTLE POWER ROLE HERE JUST WAITING TO DIE!"

[Llamarble]

GreyIcetown's thought process is pretty clear.
I am a doctor and have revealed I am either doctor or PGO to the world at large.
I got roleblocked for some reason (target died), presumably by scum, so the scum have already figured out that I'm actually a doc.
My role is now information that the scum already have, so there is no reason for me not to reveal it to the town especially if it help us think things out.

Do PGOs die when targeted for the NK by scum? I had always assumed both the PGO and the scum who targeted them would die.

[Krazy]

Llama. Pretending for the moment that Ice was actually a doctor, how would they conceivably know what his target is? That entire train of thought rests on the scum knowing what GreyIce's target was going to be, which they cannot, unless GreyIce is not the doctor.

[Llamarble]

...
He claimed PGO or Doc. They targeted him and didn't die, eliminating the PGO possibility.

[Krazy]

Well it certainly was nice of him to take the first opportunity to confirm it as loudly as possible in case they had any doubt. Because I know that, when doctor, whenever I even remotely suspect that I've been spotted, I double check to make sure the mafia have absolutely no doubt in their minds that I really am the doctor.

Because playing it off like I'm a vanilla town, well, let's face it, that would just be suicidal. I need to breadcrumb as hard as possible so that the mafia will figure out I'm really the doctor.

At this point Llama I feel like you have to just be extremely misguided, because I can't imagine GreyIce's real mafia partner coming to his defense like this and purporting to believe GreyIce's absurd illogical leaps.

[Nathanael]

^ Why?

Because of his ultra scummy hammer.




I will check and rethink this whole GreyICE/Krazy-issue as soon as I have enough time