Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[ICEninja]

Looks to me like moz is giving a lot of excuses about why he doesn't have any scum reads instead of reading the game to get scum reads. Seems like it would be easy enough to pick through the MANY cases made to find someone who either makes a convincing case or someone who makes a terrible case. The former should give you a scum read on the casee, and the latter should give you a scum read on the caser.

Too bad all you seem to care about is explaining why you don't have any scum reads, explaining why you've been useless to town, and seem to be trying to get out of doing it.

Either you're unwilling to play towards a town win condition, or you don't have one to play towards. Judging by your post count, I'd say you've got the willingness to play to your win condition.

I've got a gut scum feeling towards Klazam for an unknown reason beyond what I've already said. I'll spend some time tomorrow qualifying this feeling. I still feel like some of Red's posting has just been off. I'm also having a hard time putting a finger on that, but something about him just doesn't seem quite town to me.

Exilon and NE have been looking more town to me the past couple pages. Ythan continues to make good posting.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

[ICEninja]

If you're going to argue bad logic in a game I'm going to press it until you stop.

I actually agree with NE here. The semantics Klazam is using to attack here (between contradiction and fence sitting) don't really matter. What moz did can be called contradicting, and it can be called fence sitting. Arguing which it should be is arguing pointless semantics instead of looking at the motives behind the actions, which is where one truly finds alignment.

[Ythan]

\Either you're unwilling to play towards a town win condition, or you don't have one to play towards. Judging by your post count, I'd say you've got the willingness to play to your win condition.

I see no reason to bring this up.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

The point is not to put off claims as long as possible. The whole point of a claim is to determine if we don't want to lynch the player

and find someone else in the remaining time.

[Klazam]

unvote

Sorry Exilon. I was going to reply, but then I did a ISO on you. Apparently my reading is fail. You did have an actual reason to vote Moz, not none like I originally thought.

All righty.

I officially have no idea who the scum is. No clue where to start either.

And RE: the “easy vote” thing, I guess I used the wrong term then. I already explained what I meant. Is there anything else left that I can say? No. So I’ll just move on related to this issue. Take it any way you want to.

I’m looking over the Moz wagon right now to see where I stand on it. I’ll be back with as much analysis I can make.

Be back in 30 mins.

[Klazam]

Sleeping on it.

[RedCoyote]

Fucking IDIOTS. I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM YET. ANYONE WHO IS CERTAIN IS A DICKWAD OR SCUM.
USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS.
Peace and love

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

---

Maemuki, you've been lacking a bit on the insight/analysis department, parroting a bit, (no matter if you're conscious or not, the point is there isn't much original content) and a bit of gut.

I don't know about this. It seems like you were "parroting" her at times (Klazam vote).

---

I did suspect Klazam at the time and I gave reasons for that suspicion. Is there something wrong with those reasons?

He's been absent throughout the game so far, and has only showed up after people started talking about him. fatso is about even with Klazam, IMO, but he is getting replaced, so he can wait.

Kind of crappy reasons if you ask me. I don't think Klazam is (was) lurking with scum intentions anyways.

---

Looks to me like moz is giving a lot of excuses about why he doesn't have any scum reads instead of reading the game to get scum reads. Seems like it would be easy enough to pick through the MANY cases made to find someone who either makes a convincing case or someone who makes a terrible case. The former should give you a scum read on the casee, and the latter should give you a scum read on the caser.

Too bad all you seem to care about is explaining why you don't have any scum reads, explaining why you've been useless to town, and seem to be trying to get out of doing it.

Agreed.

[lewarcher82]

Votecount 1.8

Shattered Viewpoint -0
Necessary Evil -0

mozamis -6 (ICEninja, AGar, Exilon, Maemuki, Shattered Viewpoint, RedCoyote)

L-1

Space Pope -2 (pappmus rat)
Ythan -0
ICEninja -0
RedCoyote -0
Klazam -1 (Necessary Evil)
Exilon -0
pappmus rat -2 (Space Pope, Erratus Apathos)
Erratus Apathos -0
Maemuki -0
AGar -0

Not Voting: Ythan, mozamis, Klazam

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is March, 19th 2011 at 11:00 AM German Time (GMT+1)

Still LA, but I felt bad about my mistake...

mozamis was really on L-2, but I wrote mozamis instead of maemuki in the list of voting players

... sorry guys

[Klazam]

L-1.

Claim.

Still not done with analysis.

[Klazam]

FACTS

:
First to vote Moz: ICEninja
Reason:

Alright mozamis, 14 posts in a row is NOT acceptable. Please combine your posts next time.

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.

Actually, it is obviously not OMGUS. The original person to accuse him of OMGUS (Exilion) has conceded the point that it was NOT OMGUS.

But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.

This looks like either distancing or laying the seeds to later come back with a scum tell. Slightly scummy.

This vote seem completely unprovoked.
Slight scum read.

That was a random vote. In the RVS. And you're calling it a slight scum read? No good.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

You just said this regarding the miller claim:

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

You're very all over the place, and seem to be trying to paint AGar as scummy for no reason. More scum points.

AGREE 100 PER CENT.

That was regarding me defending Erratus.

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

This was the next post.

Yeah not liking mozamis.

Vote mozamis

.

Second: AGar
Reason:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mozamis

You're not doing anything useful. You're simply posting garbage about people's attitudes, and last I heard, scum can be nice or assholes! So start doing something, because there's plenty for you to actually look into. You haven't laid down a real stance yet.

Third: Exilon
Reason:

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Moz
This is what happens when you sit on the fence. =)

(Along with previously expressed dislike of Moz, on post 156)

Fourth: Maemuki
Reason:

VOTE: Mozamis

Notice the fence-sitting (which some people have helpfully pointed out already), the lack of any opinions ever since he started to get noticed. Get here and get some damn stances in the game, we're not lynching anybody if the town is just sitting around doing god-knows-what, and we can't get information either. Scum-hunt or die.

[SNIP]

I'd much rather see moz do some scum-hunting, and he's not gonna do it without a little push.

Fifth: Shattered Viewpoint
Reason:

I have mostly caught up on the thread. I still need to iso a couple people and look at some interactions, but for now:

Vote: Mozamis

Scummy McScumPants is being very vague and scattershot. Straighten up and fly right, young man.

Sixth: RedCoyote
Reason:

Fucking IDIOTS. I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM YET. ANYONE WHO IS CERTAIN IS A DICKWAD OR SCUM.
USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS.
Peace and love

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to us regardless of his alignment.

Unvote

;

vote: mozamis

---------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis

: (In my own opinion)

ICE, AGar, Exilon, and Mae has the most protown reasoning/justification on their votes. I know this contradicts myself with my previous stance on Exi. I was wrong before. I now see the light.

The others is suspect- SV because he basically posts "Moz is scum for being vague and scattershot" and used that to vote Moz. I dont like this reasoning. RC's is equally bad to me because of the part where RC says that Moz's unhelpfulness makes him useless in this game, regardless of his alignment. I disagree. A townie is a townie is a townie. It does not matter what the posting is, if moz is a townie, he is useful by simple virtue of numerical advantage.

---------------------------------------------------------

I just thought it'd be a good idea to post this now, to benefit D2. I'll be revisiting this if we lynch Moz today.

---------------------------------------------------------
My read of Moz:

Wow. Hard to read.

A couple of questions for you, Moz:

1) Could you give me a list of the three people you suspect the most, and why?
2) If you were forced to vote one, which one would it be?

[Erratus Apathos]

I really disagree with lynching mozamis, I have a strong read of plain ol' confused town on him.

Instead we should lynch either pappums rat or Shattered Viewpoint. I am not exaggerating when I say that mozamis has done more scumhunting than every player in those two slots

combined

.

[Klazam]

I really disagree with lynching mozamis, I have a strong read of plain ol' confused town on him.

Instead we should lynch either pappums rat or Shattered Viewpoint. I am not exaggerating when I say that mozamis has done more scumhunting than every player in those two slots

combined

.

I'm inclined to agree with this post.

[RedCoyote]

RC's is equally bad to me because of the part where RC says that Moz's unhelpfulness makes him useless in this game, regardless of his alignment. I disagree. A townie is a townie is a townie. It does not matter what the posting is, if moz is a townie, he is useful by simple virtue of numerical advantage.

In a perfect world the town will start off with a scum flip and rejoice going into the night, but in reality this sort of thing rarely happens. D1 just doesn't often lead to very convincing arguments. It's all a bunch of interpretations until we can actually start seeing some flips.

That being said, of course you want to aim to lynch scum at all times. I just so happen to think that moz is the best shot at this right now. Him being an anti-town player just makes it an easier pill for those that may not necessarily see him as the most scummy to swallow. If not moz, I'm still happy with taking out SP based on theplauge's questionable arguments. I may be convinced on rat, but I'm having a hard time isolating anything substantial against him and not just lurker-oriented.

Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

[mozamis]

Ok, I have little time today as well. Not much to point out, though. Thanks, Klazam, although I was expecting a bit more of analysis on the first pages of the game.

UNVOTE: Klazam
VOTE: Moz
This is what happens when you sit on the fence. =)

That's your reason for voting me

[Exilon]

So I'm gonna post this because I have 10 minutes and this takes 3, but I'll post more later:

MOZ, MAJOR FACEPALM.

YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY BE READING THE THREAD.

IF YOU HAD READ THE THREAD PROPERLY, YOU WOULDN'T BE WASTING TIME WITH USELESS POSTING LIKE THAT.

HERE:
post #253

GET A GRIP ON REALITY, YOU'RE AT L1.

[mozamis]

L-1.

Claim.

Still not done with analysis.

Vanilla townie.

[mozamis]

exilon, that post you quoted above was made AFTER you voted for me. You voted for me "thats what happens when you sit on the fence".
Then in your next post you obviously thought you needed to justify it a bit more.
So dont try and twist what has happened. You voted for me because of fence sitting, and then post hoc, you justified it.
Please try and be more honest in your posting.

[Erratus Apathos]

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

Of course it didn't, nothing Budja said was meaningful! He never scumhunted, he was content to argue with my attackers all day and do nothing else!

I seriously cannot understand how mozamis's not taking stances is scummy and Budja's isn't. That's completely fucking backwards is what it is. Mozamis attacked me and Mae, then dropped both of those suspicions in response to the wagon on him and openly declared that he had no scumreads, and he got wagoned to L-1 mainly for not attacking anyone. While penpen/Budja/pappums,

none of whom have

ever

attacked anyone

, get overlooked. Am I the only one who sees anything wrong with this?

[AGar]

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

Of course it didn't, nothing Budja said was meaningful! He never scumhunted, he was content to argue with my attackers all day and do nothing else!

I seriously cannot understand how mozamis's not taking stances is scummy and Budja's isn't. That's completely fucking backwards is what it is. Mozamis attacked me and Mae, then dropped both of those suspicions in response to the wagon on him and openly declared that he had no scumreads, and he got wagoned to L-1 mainly for not attacking anyone. While penpen/Budja/pappums,

none of whom have

ever

attacked anyone

, get overlooked. Am I the only one who sees anything wrong with this?

Penpen/Budja/pappums haven't been posting multiple times with useless fluff and not actually taking stances. They're just not posting. If Pappums doesn't put down any stances here, similar to how Moz is doing this, then I'll bring the heat in his direction too. But let me simplify for you:

Not posting != Avoiding stances

[AGar]

Fuck, this was supposed to be with the prior post.

I really disagree with lynching mozamis, I have a strong read of plain ol' confused town on him.

Instead we should lynch either pappums rat or Shattered Viewpoint. I am not exaggerating when I say that mozamis has done more scumhunting than every player in those two slots

combined

.

I'm inclined to agree with this post.

This post...

L-1.

Claim.

Still not done with analysis.

contradicts this post.

I think we might have found a potential buddy here.

[Space Pope]

RedCoyote 280- This post is kind of scummy. It's fence sitting in the fact he calls moz both scum and town, but proceeds to vote him. (thus if Moz flips town, has an out). Then 286 addresses this, however he says he wants people to vote Moz if they think he is town (paraphrasing). I wouldn't want town to be on a wagon that they thought was on an anti-town person, don't know why RedCoyote does.

"Him being an anti-town player just makes it an easier pill for those that may not necessarily see him as the most scummy to swallow."

[Ythan]

Done with midterms week. Since Moz is on the block I'll start my catchup with him.

[Klazam]

L-1 always = claim, correct?

Also, Moz could you answer my questions? It's at the end of the giant post I made.

[Ythan]

No, claims come if there is going to be a lynch. If only L-1 players want the lynch then L-1 isn't good enough.

[Klazam]

Hmm.

(new-ish player question) but if a person is at l-1, isnt it better to claim, in order to avoid losing any potentially useful powers?

[Klazam]

exilon, that post you quoted above was made AFTER you voted for me. You voted for me "thats what happens when you sit on the fence".
Then in your next post you obviously thought you needed to justify it a bit more.
So dont try and twist what has happened. You voted for me because of fence sitting, and then post hoc, you justified it.
Please try and be more honest in your posting.

Also look at post 156. (how do I link?)

It has exilion's justification.