Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[xRECKONERx]

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

Do not, I repeat, do not bring that up again.

[SensFan]

Espeonage - 6 (Papa Zito, Dram, Tragedy, EmpTyger, Hiraki, Nero Cain)
Kise - 5 (Llamarble, Purple Orange, Ashblade, GreyICE, Espeonage)
Ashblade - 1 (Kise)
Antihero - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not Voting - 3 (Xalxe, antihero, xRECKONERx)

9 to lynch.

[xRECKONERx]

Kise is voting himself?

Wat?

Fixed, thanks.

-Sens

[EmpTyger]

Mod:
No, you didn’t, unless Kise is now a doublevoter.
Seriously, whatever method you’re doing to track votecounts isn’t working. With this many inaccuracies throughout the game, you need to do something differently.


LlamaF:
No, you need to explain something.

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

Why did you say this specifically? That is, how did you know that the loverclaim happened, but not who suggested it?
(And you shouldn’t need to get into pro vs anti claiming to clear this up.)


Espeonage:

Ideas on the hypothetical situation of Kise bussing partner's Ash and Llama when faced with a potential lynch.

Less likely than you bussing your partners.


Kise:
Not liking Llamarble/Ashblade, but more from Llamarble’s end. Honestly, I’m not seeing anything egregious in what you quoted of him. I could see that as a legitimate reaction to your play today.


Reckoner:

I will hammer whoever of Espeonage/Kise gets to L-1 first.

Where did that come from? You’ve been insisting Kise is town all game. (With one notable exception, of course.)

And as for your questions about GreyIce's reactions...

what motivation would GreyICE have for

not

going along with the quicklynch plan if he's scum?

I know AtE is supposed be null/scummy, but it makes me think GreyICE is town here. Why would he flip out this hard, as scum, not at LyLo?

Maybe because according to the plan, he doesn’t get to lynch-or-lose? Kise’s final 6 would have been the Reckoner, dramonic, and Tragedy pairs, and GreyIce had put himself solidly in the “Reckoner and dramonic are town” camp.


Antihero:
I didn’t feel anything particularly egregious got posted in your absence, and certainly nothing so predominantly as you seemed to feel.


dramonic:
Except, he did say “meta”, repeatedly. Including a day or two before and after that post.

Let me put it this way: my town metaread on dram is still really strong, despite the lurking.

werewolf, on the other hand, has been essentially nonexistent, but luckily we know that that slot is already town, due to dram being obvtown, due to meta.

I don’t see any reason for him to suddenly be shy about it. Can you think of any other explanation?

[xRECKONERx]

Where did that come from? You’ve been insisting Kise is town all game. (With one notable exception, of course.)

I've been insisting he's town due to the blowup at the start of the game. It skewed my read on him. Removing myself from the AIM situation on D1, I looked back and realized "Hey, he hasn't done anything scummy, really!" which makes him town in my book. However, I'm probably the person in this game the least likely to get an accurate read on Kise due to my bias. I don't personally see why he's scum, but then again, I'm not really feeling any of the cases at this stage are incredibly solid. A lynch on either Esp or Kise would provide us with ample information.

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey:

PO WASN'T GETTING LYNCHED ON DAY 1, IT'S FINE FUCKING DISTANCING, AND NOW HE WANTS TO LYNCH SOMEONE NOT PO?

Well,

I

thought there was a good chance of me getting lynched on Day 1. :

======
@ Kise:

Please give a simple yes or no: Does anyone else see Ash as misrepping/lying?

Yes. (How the hell don't people see this?). You were gung-ho on Reck/Nero/Espy/Me before we ever said "boo" about you. And your softball at Ash here was the first accusation I saw between your pairs. Whether I think they misrepped with malicious intent would be a separate matter, but they

did

misrep in saying that you've only gone after people who attack you.

=====
@ Reck.

Kise, let me ask you something: what motivation would GreyICE have for

not

going along with the quicklynch plan if he's scum?

Several, actually, especially after I crashed around and made an issue of the plan being a bad idea. But we're playing multiple levels of WIFOM deep if we go there. (He sort of does agree a bit later, when he gives his approval to a reflexive Kise lynch after an Espy lynch).

========
@ Emp:

PO:

Can you explain why town-Mariyta would call kcda scum for trying to do precisely what she suggested?

Um... Kcda didn't do what she suggested?

Mariyta suggested that Kcda relay his posts through Baby Spice.
Instead, both of them stopped posting completely for a week, and were called on it. And Mariyta called them found both suspicious when they posted on their return.

(Or, if you prefer, the explanation Mariyta gave you herself D2:

"Baby Spice took the reprieve given to her partner and jumped on the first wagon to form. I haven't had a read on her to this point, but her recent play is deliciously scumalicious." / "Kcda's play is newb-scummy, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Til his partner came in and ruined that, of course."

)

I don't see any problem with that. And, as I said before, I don't see a werewolf providing them that initial respite.

Well, actually, it's this part of ISO 55 that you should have pointed to:

Do you agree with Reck that they also look scummy because kcda wants Baby Spice to look over his posts?

@PO: Yes, I do, but I can also see that as mega-newb play (not indicative of alignment).

...as it indicates that an overall scumread (reached through other reasons) changed how she decided to interpret an otherwise null action. I think. So, sure, I'll drop this contention.

There's still plenty of question in my mind about the tone and seriousness of the initial suggestion she made, however, so I don't see it as a lockdown "werewolf wouldn't do this" actions at all. (And even when I do see things like that...if there's a lot pointing in the other direction that can oughtweigh that, sometimes I still vote that way).

======
@ Tragedy:

I

think vezok/Mist are a decent pick?

(But as mafia-mafia, not werewolf-mafia).

!!
As mafia-Mafia? You do not think them as WEREWOLF-MAFIA? Isn't it

SOMEHOW SUSPICIOUS OF THIS?

I REQUEST THAT THE SUSPECT, PURPLE ORANGE, WOULD RESPOND WITH A GOOD EXPLANATION ON WHY YOU BELIEVED THAT THEY WOULD MOST LIKELY NOT BE WEREWOLF-MAFIA. OF COURSE, MIST/VEZOK HAD VOTED AGAINST ANYONE, TO OBVIOUSLY MAKE IT SUSPICIOUS THAT THEY WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE SCUMFACED.

That would be the fault of me discussing too much mafia theory with Kise. I was still arguing with him about mafia-team proclivities, and making predictions based upon our respective systems. His predicted werewolf-mafia. Mine didn't necessarily

exclude

the possibility of werewolf-mafia, but mafia-mafia was a lot more likely, as I felt vezok/Mist were practically the only lurkish pair left who were ineffective enough to have presided over the kcdaspice debacle. (If that made no sense, I can try a long answer. I swear it works in some crazy whacked out way, but the logic is a bit...convoluted.)

[LlamaFluff]

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

Why did you say this specifically? That is, how did you know that the loverclaim happened, but not who suggested it?

When looking for the last votecount its hard to miss the bolded "lover pairing" that also has color in it.

[EmpTyger]

Temporary

unvote: Espeonage

. I need to discuss something with Hiraki.

[xRECKONERx]

Mod, Kise still has two different wagons on him.

[Kise]

Please give a simple yes or no: Does anyone else see Ash as misrepping/lying?

Yes. (How the hell don't people see this?).

I think the intention is to get our pairs out of the way. Yes, we've dragged the day on... but why was there no steam when I called to vote Esp at first? Everyone dragged, and now that I found the real scum in Ash, everyone's too lazy to look his way. Oddly enough, they all of a sudden start agreeing with either voting Esp or myself, to end the day.

I'm pretty fucking sure Grey & Anti are scum with somebody, and that's the one pair I have confidence in. Ash is just flufftastic and I'm hoping to hell he's just a townie covering his own ass by not admitting to the misrep. I think with the way no one is really looking out for your pair, PO, you are leaning closer to town.

The thing I fear is that the reasons I listed against Grey & Anti will be overlooked in my death, and further in the game there will be no reason for anyone to suspect them as everyone else in this game has at least one case against them.

Reck if I'm lynched and you see I'm town, where would YOU go from there?

[xRECKONERx]

Reck if I'm lynched and you see I'm town, where would YOU go from there?

Esp or GreyICE.

[Kise]

Grey, plz. Leave no wiggle room. No second guessing.

[xRECKONERx]

So Esp is town now?

[Kise]

Yes.... do you plan to read my posts?

[Tragedy]

Kise's partner is mia so that adds kise to the list. I know you think kise is town but just saying.

I do believe the town pool should be extended to have Grey/Anti and Emp/Thingy(replacement) as a subset in the probably town pool. That leaves Llama/Ash and Kise/PP as the next lynches. If somehow they are both town then we can move to the other two.

I'm just prioritising lynches here seeing as we're discussing this.

OBJECTION.
You mentioned

Kise's Partner

, which makes him add him into the list.

How come?

You're just double bussing with your scum partner(s)

, I think?
You two have been onto the throats on each other, I think again.
But then there's the same problem with

EmpTyger's Partner

, whose BEING replaced?
You decided to slit the throat out of a partner-less person but you just simply think the other partner-less idiot is TOWN?

THIS IS IRONICALLY MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!

YOU, ARE COMPLETELY FAULTY, ESPEONAGE.

[Purple Orange]

tl;dr of the stuff under the spoiler tag/b]
* Oops, I dun misrepped Ash. The point he WAS making (that Kise attacked anyone who didn't agree with him) is still bullshit, though. The only person it could possibly apply to is Grey.
* Only this part of Ash's case on Kise is a misrep. Kise DID hypertunnel on Espy/me, the timing of his attack on Grey coincided with Grey's disagreement with Kise, and he IS indeed voting for someone other than the pair he's been convinced (for pretty much the whole game) would flip scum.
* I think that all the above points are null.
* llama's case is better, but just an echo of my 1487.

At the moment, trying to decide how much Day 5.5 should count against everything I thought I saw in Days 1 through 5.0. :p

Spoiler: textwall concerning the above bulletpoints

but they

did

misrep in saying that you've only gone after people who attack you.

Ashblade actually said he only went after "everyone who doesn't agree with him." Which is bullshit also, but it's still pretty damn awful of me to misrep someone while I'm saying they misrepped someone.

Anyhow. I tracked everyone Kise attacked when I made that 1487, and I've just rechecked them. Kise has been after Reck/Nero/Espy/me since HIS VERY FIRST POST. He's been after Espy/me while we've called him town, while we've called him scum, while we've agreed with him, while we've disagreed with him. He got on the kcdaspice and vezok wagons; he took taken minor salvos at werewolf and Mari/Traj...none of which are tied to them disagreeing with him or attacking him, as far as I can tell. And he certainly attacked your pair before you guys said ANYTHING about him. (You guys have also agreed with him pretty consistently about Espy/me, since Day 1).

1410 - Kise puts Ash as lowest of three scumreads. "...and least likely but possibly Ashblade for something I went over yesterday that I've noticed in his posting."
1417 - Ash votes Espy, says Kise is town, because PO is scum trying to stretch a case on him
1420 - llama votes Espy
1457 - Ash throws a "Kise is making me nervous" softball
1458 - Kise says oh no you don't OMGUS. And that he might have misjudge Ash, given Grey's unexpected defense of PO.
1467 - Kise finally says WHY he thinks Ash is scum. "Iso'ing Ash shows me he tends to comment on irrelevent things."
1507 - Llama votes for Kise. "Kise hasn't given out townreads and has stayed in a small space. Kise's posting doesn't look like that of a player who is trying to figure the game out or truly cares who gets lynched. The exception to that is the Reck episode, and I doubt Kisescum is any less likely than Kisetown to go after someone he thinks he has caught lying."
1508 - Kise reiterates he sees llama/Ash as 3rd most likely scum
1539 - Ash says agrees with his partner that Kise is scum, and votes. "All he's doing is putting people as scum as EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH HIM."
1540 - Kise gets mad at Ash.
1548 - Llama makes a post that Kise later calls fluff
1553 - Kise votes for Ash

GreyICE is the ONLY person you could legitimately say he listed because they disagreed with him, as they are the ONLY pair that even fits your chronology.

======
Conversely - Kise. This is the only thing I see Ash misrepping you on.

Llama's post is fine (if a complete echo of mine), and Ash's 1555 is slightly better than his 1539.

Tunnel hyperdrive on PO until he couldn't handle it anymore.
Added Grey to the list when he disagreed with the excess tunneling.
Added me when I didn't like the tunneling either, and is now voting me instead of the person he thought was SO SURE, that PO and Esp would flip scum."

You DID hypertunnel on Espy/me, the timing of your attack on Grey coincided with his disagreement with you, and you ARE indeed voting for someone other than the pair you've been convinced (for pretty much the whole game) would flip scum. (imho all of these are null, though, not scummy).

[Kise]

Tunnel Purple? Fair enough

I've admitted to that.

[xRECKONERx]

Yes.... do you plan to read my posts?

Eventually.

PS U SITTIN BESIDES ME BRAH

[Antihero]

Antihero:
I didn’t feel anything particularly egregious got posted in your absence, and certainly nothing so predominantly as you seemed to feel.

Really? I feel like part of my soul dies every time I click into this thread.

[Kise]

With no werewolves flipped, does anyone have a great reason why others can be viewed as pro-town?

[Hiraki]

Kise's partner is mia so that adds kise to the list. I know you think kise is town but just saying.

I do believe the town pool should be extended to have Grey/Anti and Emp/Thingy(replacement) as a subset in the probably town pool. That leaves Llama/Ash and Kise/PP as the next lynches. If somehow they are both town then we can move to the other two.

I'm just prioritising lynches here seeing as we're discussing this.

OBJECTION.
You mentioned

Kise's Partner

, which makes him add him into the list.

How come?

You're just double bussing with your scum partner(s)

, I think?
You two have been onto the throats on each other, I think again.
But then there's the same problem with

EmpTyger's Partner

, whose BEING replaced?
You decided to slit the throat out of a partner-less person but you just simply think the other partner-less idiot is TOWN?

THIS IS IRONICALLY MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL!

YOU, ARE COMPLETELY FAULTY, ESPEONAGE.

Can you explain this? I believe Espeonage is scum, but I need to know why you believe he is. This seems like someone connected dots 3 and 85 together.

[LlamaFluff]

Anti did no scumhunting early, he did try and shut down townhunting early though as we see here.

Why is silavor town, again?

Quickly trying to kill off someone getting a town read on another. In these types of games scum have to be terrified of town reads since it will create a player that they cant possibly get rid of. Anti again, also not actually scumhunting here, his only vote is random. All he is interested in is shutting down others.

PO is also dead right in that anti is avoiding the elephant in the room, he seems very nervous to take sides in a three pair battle, which is something scum would again want to avoid, since they have to be careful not to bus, and cant accidently look like scum with other scum.

Eventually he actually votes Emp for calling silavor town (as per above quote). He justifies this vote over other people calling town reads because Emps was the "least justifiable", which is fairly arbitrary since town tells greatly differ from person to person. It seems more like aggression to shut down town read discussion again, by putting pressure on those who start talking about it. At the same time he is lining up for the hop to q21 already.

Soon we have the hop to q21 that is based on one line that anit brought up at one point and one post of saying how he is "sniping". Since then he has never mentioned q21, if you read anti in iso, its impossible to tell why q21 got voted past "bad first post". Anti just rides that horse to a lynch while leaving trials to Emp, umbridge, kca and kise to jump on as needed. He is taking the easy way out while opening as many doors as possible for later in the game. Infact reading what he has said, I have no idea why Anti wasnt voting Umbridge the entire day since he seemed to have much more of a problem with him.

I can get more up later. But this is a good start as to why anti is scum.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise: Um...other than all the reasons we call people "protown" and give townreads in every OTHER mafia game? Even before any scum are flipped in those?

@ Hikari (and Traj) - Assuming Espy is referring to what I think he's referring to, what he says in that post is perfectly rational, and Traj is completely missing his point. (If Espy doesn't get in here to explain sometime, I can try to give a translation. :p)

@ Anti: Forget the day 1...why haven't you voted yet

today

, 300 posts in? You've been a quite early voter on days 1-4, plus Grey has said that your dislike of Kise was one of his reasons for voting Kise.

[LlamaFluff]

@ Kise: Um...other than all the reasons we call people "protown" and give townreads in every OTHER mafia game? Even before any scum are flipped in those?

You are only able to call town reads on non-interaction with dead scum ones since scum have all the reason in the world to scumhunt for other scum. If you think someone is town based on other reasons, that tell stays intact. As I stated earlier, town reads can be key for town winning these types of games, a great reason for anti-town since he spent quite a bit of day one discrediting town reads.

[GreyICE]

With no werewolves flipped, does anyone have a great reason why others can be viewed as pro-town?

You know, it's funny, I actually have fucking great reasons I'm town.

Keep building the case up Kise, I want your neck all the way out when it gets chopped off.