Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[Kise]

What the fuck's your problem?

[Hiraki]

What the fuck's your problem?

This is starting to convince me to go against my town read of you. Carry on though.

[Llamarble]

Okay, Reck is even more almost definitely town, for among other reasons saying he didn't think Mariy/PO were scum together, not mentioning it for awhile, and then continuing to have that read in mind ages later even after the mafia are gone. He's trying to figure out what's going on. Nero hasn't been as active, but I don't find him scummy.

[GreyICE]

Reck is town.

The Pope is Catholic.

New reads plox.

[LlamaFluff]

More reading... Reck/NC and PO/Esp are both town pairings... I want to put Emp/Hikari there, but something there is bugging me on a gut level.

Best two scum bets are the Anti/Ice and Ash/other llama ones, if anti/ice is a town pairing, then dram/wolf is scum. I see zero reason why people are writing them off as town apart from reck getting all loud about it. There is zero way you can get any read of wolf slot, and dram is actually fairly scummy. Im actually sitting here debating a switch to a dram vote given the position that the anti/ice wagon is sitting in, there are very few people who actually work as a partner there. Its something im going to think about, and the "player is scummy as hell but no one works well as a partner" dilemma that I hate. The fact that somehow dram didnt get lynched when he looked like obv-partner to kcda also is a tell to me. No clue how he managed to get out of that one from an iso read, so im guessing wolf-dram is using reck as a pet-townie hardcore.

Tragedy/PZ gets the wildcard slot. They both read so close to null its painful.

[GreyICE]

Excuse me, how the fuck are we scummy as hell? You AND Kise have never explained this one anywhere near adequately. It looks like you're trying to hold open our mislynch if people are up for it while preparing yourself for a Town flip.

The best you comment on is a handful of Antihero posts. Well gee. As a couple we've probably made twice the posts of any other couple in this game. You can probably snag a few things from either of our ISOs that look scummy, just because of how bloody LONG they are.

Got any scum motivations or scum reads that DON'T come from "oh boy, I can selectively quote a few ISO posts?"

[LlamaFluff]

So you are trying to tear down my anti case by saying "he posted a lot so there are more scumtells?". Also you are really misrepping how much im pushing on you, im not dancing around testing the waters or any crap like that. I have been voting your slot because anti reads really scummy and you read pretty scummy. The only thing ive got hung up on is who can actually work with you given VC analysis ive been looking at a bit.

It IS possible to post a lot while looking pro-town you know, something you both really have failed to do this entire game. The fact that just about everyone has called you two VIs or scum backs this point up quite a bit. The same thing is what is makng me wonder if you really are just town since everyone seems vaugely happy with killing you two.

Personally I think you are a dick at this point, and would love to see you lynched just to make the game more enjoyable. When I replace into a setup I really dislike as a favor, I dont want to put up with crap people who sure read as bad players as well. But I respect the mod, and quite a few of the players in this game so im going to deal with it.

[GreyICE]

Wow. You're posting in a game where two TOWNIES have claimed scum in the thread? And you wanna focus on a few selectively quoted scumtells?

Are you fucking serious?

As for bad players, go reread the KcdaSpot and VezokPiraka wagons. Even if I'm scum, as your little theory suggests, I didn't get those reads PMed to me. I read em in the thread. This is about the third or fourth time scum has called me a "bad player" to discredit me on these boards, and it's not getting any more interesting because you think you're the first one to come up with this novel and innovative defense. "Oh no one listen to him, he's a bad player!"

Well I've pushed four lynches so far, and batted 50%, in a game where the batting average should be 33% at best. If you think I'm scum, that drops to 20%, since I ain't hunting me or my teammate. And Umbrage bloody claimed to want the town to lose, so if you think we're not better off with that disaster dead, you're wrong.

And you think I'm a bad player? After reading this game?

Or are you just trying to sound reasonable and discredit me?

Wanna explain that one to me again?

[Antihero]

So you are trying to tear down my anti case by saying "he posted a lot so there are more scumtells?". Also you are really misrepping how much im pushing on you, im not dancing around testing the waters or any crap like that. I have been voting your slot because anti reads really scummy and you read pretty scummy. The only thing ive got hung up on is who can actually work with you given VC analysis ive been looking at a bit.

It IS possible to post a lot while looking pro-town you know, something you both really have failed to do this entire game. The fact that just about everyone has called you two VIs or scum backs this point up quite a bit. The same thing is what is makng me wonder if you really are just town since everyone seems vaugely happy with killing you two.

Personally I think you are a dick at this point, and would love to see you lynched just to make the game more enjoyable. When I replace into a setup I really dislike as a favor, I dont want to put up with crap people who sure read as bad players as well. But I respect the mod, and quite a few of the players in this game so im going to deal with it.

You calling anyone else a dick is pretty laughable.

I don't think anyone has described either of us as a VI, and I certainly don't think

everyone

wants us dead.

Some favor you're doing everyone.

[LlamaFluff]

Yes I probably stepped over the line a bit, but when people are ignoring what I am putting up (which is exactly what you did by saying "its beacuse we post a lot") im going to get pretty short tempered since thats one of the things that really sets me off. VCA shows you only early on town lynches, and late/not present on scum ones.

You have been kind of a dick though as the last few days, granted it was in a short timespan, but you were.

I need to cool down a bit, but trying to just ignore my case on your partner isnt going to make me respond warmly to you in the least bit.

[GreyICE]

Yes I probably stepped over the line a bit, but when people are ignoring what I am putting up (which is exactly what you did by saying "its beacuse we post a lot") im going to get pretty short tempered since thats one of the things that really sets me off. VCA shows you only early on town lynches,

and late/not present on scum ones.

You're right. We're Mafia lovers. Just couldn't stand bussing our buddies, but eventually we had to when they were so bad. However did you guess?

[LlamaFluff]

You just seem to be trying to championing the lynches, while votecounts disagree with it is what im saying.

[Espeonage]

You know I'd be tempted to see Anti as scum except for the fact that my strongest town read is ice.

[LlamaFluff]

You know I'd be tempted to see Anti as scum except for the fact that my strongest town read is ice.

Interestingly enough this is why I see your pair as town. PO is my strongest town read while you get the null/leaning scum one.

[GreyICE]

Interestingly enough this is why I see your pair as town. PO is my strongest town read while you get the null/leaning scum one.

QQ

I hate it when someone I think is scum posts exactly what I think in the thread

[GreyICE]

Blah.

48 Hour hiatus. New reads on Tuesday. I'm finding this valuable, I am far too emotionally attached to some games, and this is turning into one of them.

Anti, smack me if I post anything outside the lovers thread.

I mean besides if someone suggests that we just didn't want to bus our buddies kcda and Vezok again, that was fuuuuun.

FYI the reason I didn't vote Vezok so long was his promised "Content later." Me and Anti thought he was hopping back to the QT to get some info from the other werewolf couple (since he certainly wasn't hopping back to the QT to learn what interesting insights Mist brought to our game). I was hoping we'd out the other werewolves from who he was sheeping reads and stealing lines off of.

Turns out the ghost of BabySpice, and he was not-so-subtly (by the end) trying to tell Mist to get back in the QT. I'll bet dollars to donuts she never posted there or read it, except maybe when she first replaced in.

[LlamaFluff]

As long as we are thinking on the same line, want to wagon dram? His post where he votes vezok is almost enough to justify a lynch on him by itself.

I will be like a Giants fan and Jets fan coming together to beat up a Patriots fan, unless you are a Patriots fan then its like something else.

[GreyICE]

Uhhhhh.

Anti is probably up for it

I unno. I reread Dramonic's ISO and it says town to me, but it whispers it softly. Xalxe is the first replacement that I've ever seen to actually attempt to equal Werewolf555 in net content added to thread. And possibly succeed.

Not really a fan Also I personally like the idea of Reck and Dram both being town and living to the very end in the last game they play together on site.

[LlamaFluff]

I wouldnt give more then 3:2 odds on dram being town... his iso reads as one of my top scum reads.

Just look at how he pushes on people.

Day one he really just jumps on q21 (pushing his partner instead, which on its own is a minor tell). Day two he really doesnt do much hunting around apart from a tiny case early on salv with wiggle room to move to three other wagons, that he eventually does without reasoning.

His two sentance case is picked up again on day three. Also fun is the lack of content from him which he is using (coming from Haylen) as justification to push along salv mislynch. This brings us to the amazingly scummy iso-20

First, he brings up pairings that are half scummy, half townie in such a way that he does not really want to push on them through the use of the phrase "If I have to bend myself over" (thats what he said) "to one of those lynches". Now comes the possible slip:

Tragedy's last post just threw me for a loop. I do not see the town motive at all for saying she'll self-vote if Vezok makes a decent case (barring the fact its a riskless bet, considering vezok making a decent case is statistically impossible). On the other hand, if she were mafia it means giving up any hope for her team to win.

Anyone else see dram completely ignoring the fact that Tragedy can be wolf here? He brings up the scenario where Tragedy is town, and the scenario where Tragedy is mafia. The possibility of Tragedy-wolf is myseteriously missing though. Note that he has got past the "slip" of tragedy at this point so that is discounted.

Eventually he votes one of the afformentioned town/scum pairs in what seems like an attempt to just further a wagon that he seems to chalk up to policy in a seemligly apologetic way. I think that wolf-dram thought that he was lynching town-vezok in this situation and was already trying to get out of taking heat for it by acting like it was best for the game. I am all for moving wagons to get a game going, but he was obviously conflicted on this vote about two paragraphs preceeding it. You dont go lynching null reads to get the game moving.

Today we see dram trying to line up a PO/Esp and then Tragedy/Mary lynch very early on in a no so consipicous manner, saying that neither group can live to the endgame. Since then... nothing. Dram has never presented a case on people, and spent most of his time buddying up to people and setting up lynches, just exploiting the town read that Reck has jammed town everyones throats for him.

Seriously, someone point me to a strong case dram has made this game.

There is none. However there are plenty of attempts to set up lynches (he already got the vezok one, and is moved on to Esp/PO). There also is the quote that looks like a wolf slip to me.

unvote
Vote dram

Wrath of reck in 3... 2... 1...

[GreyICE]

Smacking Werewolf with a rolled up newspaper is no sort of tell.

[LlamaFluff]

Smacking Werewolf with a rolled up newspaper is no sort of tell.

Never said that... I think its the first paragraph you are refrencing, which is where he based his vote on q21 on what the lover to q21 was doing. By putting is vote on q21 due to what his lover did, its going to destroy vote count analysis, and exaggerate the strength of the wagon on an individual slot. Pushing on one player but backing the wagon on their lover is going to make the late game very hard to deal with as we look for partners. Just about all the refrence to wolf that dram did was ask for him to be replaced.

[dramonic]

At first, I was going to do a PBP response to your case wall post, but I can't be half-assed to do that as I haven't slept in a while, so I'll address the points that stuck out to me.

@the quote about tragedy: I was referring to mafia as a general name for the scum. Specific reference would be stupid in this context, considering even in the most stupid of scenario I can't see Tragedy proposing a suicide when she's the last member of her team.

@voting for partners of reads: I think it's quite a stretch to say I was voting q21's partner (i think?) to muddle votecount analysis. I don't do VC analysis for one thing, and frankly I'm just voting the larger wagon in the pair.

I'll address more points but I'm tired, havent slept tonighht.

[Purple Orange]

@ llamarble - Do you still think Espy/me are scum, regardless of what Kise flips? Or are you with Ash that it's an either/or situation?

@ Kise:

I think the intention is to get our pairs out of the way. Yes, we've dragged the day on... but why was there no steam when I called to vote Esp at first? Everyone dragged, and now that I found the real scum in Ash, everyone's too lazy to look his way. Oddly enough, they all of a sudden start agreeing with either voting Esp or myself, to end the day.

Um...no, there was a LOT of steam. You may not be keeping track of how close Espy/me came to being lynched TWICE already today, but I sure have.

@ llamafluff

By putting is vote on q21 due to what his lover did, its going to destroy vote count analysis, and exaggerate the strength of the wagon on an individual slot. Pushing on one player but backing the wagon on their lover is going to make the late game very hard to deal with as we look for partners. Just about all the refrence to wolf that dram did was ask for him to be replaced.

How? It's just shorthand for the whole loverteam. Day 1 there's a bit of confusion and overlap, but by Day 2

everyone

is voting for whatever lover already has a vote on him. (The one thing you might pull from Day 1 is that q21 would have been lynched one vote earlier, had your slot been paying attention and switched his vote to the lover that actually counted).

VCA shows you only early on town lynches, and late/not present on scum ones.

If they're werewolves,

everyone

is the enemy, so the differentiation between town and scum lynches doesn't mean much. Also, their votecounts aren't the ones I find most disturbing. They've got some atypical stuff, like being 4th/5th on every wagon on day 1, but they haven't been afraid to lead off voting, or push early wagons on a variety of people. (Well, until today, when they were the 7th pair out of the voting gate instead of the 1st or 2nd, and Anti hasn't even voted).

I can post a more detailed rundown of things if you want. But the people with the bad records are Kise and llamateam. What I got from those pairs, between their votepatterns and their posts, is an overall lack of initiative and a narrow range of focus, the level of which I honestly don't see in most of the others left. (dram and Traj are borderline; Grey, Emp, and Reck are decently clean).

[Ashblade]

between their votepatterns and their posts, is an overall lack of initiative and a narrow range of focus

You wanted initiative, you got it. I'm slow to burn but I don't plan on stopping now. And because of the attack from Kise I saw it on you.

More by the hour.

[Ashblade]

Tunnel Purple? Fair enough, as i was convinced about esp and didnt like her persistance. Grey is not on my scumlist for disagreeing with me. He is suspicious due to building counterwagons EVEN THO "Esp is scummy as fuck" to him. This, and if you read him after KCD flipped, him and anti were actively trying to connect players to the mafia team. Why they werent equally considering players as wolves, is what i find fishy now that we're left w/ town vs. wolves. As for you Ash, I suspected you daaaays before you "disagreed" w/ my tunneling.... HEY YO, WERENT YOU VOTING ESP TOO? OH YEH, UP UNTIL I SAW HOW ALL YOU DO IS COMMIT YOURSELF TO OTHER WAGONS OR ARTICLES THAT ARE NON_PROGRESSIVE. "I bet werewolf55 sits at home all day and goes"_ IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE HE GOES. HOW BOUT ANOTHER TWISTING OF MY VIEWS, ASH? BET YET, ++[;[ (& $&% [\@!! ~^#/ /^;.

1. And that's how the tunnel thing is.
2. That's what it looked like to me when you commented on Grey and then when I just say I feel nervous about you you go all "don't get omgusy." when at the time you showed to me no reason to suspect me in the first place and I wasn't planning on voting you before then!
3. The Esp wagon was an either or process at that time and before you go and go off track like that I thought it was Esp, not you that was scummier. Then I saw it in you.

When we play mafia, we usually try to point out WHY posts are scummy instead of saying things like this.

I'm not so green that I can't back stuff up. Dramonic even saw the hyper tunnel track drive and trying to beat a dead horse in like... everything, when I don't even see it.

possibly Ashblade for something I went over yesterday that I've noticed in his posting.

Guess that wasn't the first time you suspected me. So fine, I'll drop the 'you didn't suspect me before then' point. But really, you even said before that you were so fucking sure PO and Esp would flip scum and now you're so sure they aren't.

So, this is the part you think I'm a lying scumbag over?

More later (busy days are not fun), but I still want Kise dead. If I had to guess who is after this, it still is probably either one of Tragedy/Zito, or Emptyger/Hiraki, but that's by my own process of elimination. When/If Kise flips wolf, PO is all but clear of being wolf as well.