Mini 1140 - Mafia Mishmash...Game Over!!

[havingfitz]

Votecount 2.16:

Haylen – 3 (vollkan, Surprise_Carcinogen, Maxous)

bgg1996 - 1 (CryMeARiver)
Andrew94 - 2 (curiouskarmadog, bgg1996)
CryMeARiver - 1 (subgenius)
curiouskarmadog - 1 (Andrew94)
Maxous - 1 (Regfan)

Not voting: (Haylen)

With 10 players left it’s 6 to lynch.

subgenius and CryMeARiver have been prodded

Day 2 will end no later than midnight EST on April 6th.

[subgenius]

I'm a bit embarrassed that I just got prodded. Sorry guys. I've been reading, and keeping up, but I'm feeling a bit stalled. As before, my top two suspects are Haylen and CMAR. I am very concerned that CMAR and Haylen appear to have bgg as their top suspect, yet neither of them have addressed S_C's claim. I think I'm going to need to do some re-reading to regain momentum on my reads, because I feel like I've lost my focus.

[curiouskarmadog]

Updating, not as bad as I thought it was going to be…just page 28..typing as I go.
Note to self: cmar replaces truant, Haylen replaces yura.

Anyway, since nobody seems to be at L-"got home from school and he was lynched", I'll

unvote

And put a pressure vote on

vote:CryMeARiver

.

I still would very much like to lynch Andrew

, but I don't think that having my vote on him will have much effect on him, other than contributing to his lynch.

Then why don’t we? Tru was scummier??....dont think so…it is posts like this that I have problem seeing coming from town…but you have SC vouching for you…so blah.

@regfan…soooo, thoughts on bgg “pressure” vote?

noted, Max and SC want ANOTHER FUCKING SHORTENED DAY....

this fact lowers Yura's scum factor in my mind...there is no point...

Why is Yura lowered by this?
Apologies if you have already answered, I did'nt really catch on to a direct answer.

so is it true that you want to shorten the day? It is lower because I didnt like the rush to lynch him...however, it is moot at this point (at least in regards to SC) because of the soft claim.....do I need to explain why it is moot too?

Post 692 is a mega post…@ yura/haylen

Yura thought I was scummy/scum for “defending” him day 1…do you think I defended him?..if yes, was it scummy?...if no, is what I DID do scummy?

What was interesting between vollkan and myself (day 1)?

And Bgg and vollkan?

Your thoughts on SC’s softclaim?

. There can't be two scum-teams(we've already gone over why, you'll get there eventually, I just dont' want to repost it). .

why not?..you dont think there is an SK anymore?

Why is that? (EDIT)….ahh you must think scum means mafia…SK is indeed scum, separate from mafia


Wait, why is Haylen doing a ISO of yura?....that is ridiculous and a waste of time….the end is always going to be scummy, but I am not scum…or newbie.

………

Yep.

If I had to lynch somebody right now, it would most definitely be andrew.

OK......actions > words

Bgg, I just don’t get your logic. I know a great deal about probability, but those number are arbitrary.

(edit: votes Andrews….great)

alright. so bgg your saying im the Sk, and you made random points (1 2 3 4 etc) basically your reasoning is that tclawren died by a stab that i must be a sk? right?

where did he say that?

Okay, caught up..

Andrew needs to die…he is so obviously scum it hurts…not sure if he is the SK or mafia…but he is NOT TOWN.

[CryMeARiver]

Yes, yes, I've put off my reread long enough -_- I've been focused on creating my open game (flavor, role PM's, getting a good player list) that I'm modding and things with my church more than this game and I'm sorry.

PREEDIT: Wow, there's more info on these first two pages alone than on an entire day in some games, I think I'll go ahead and post this because I abide by the fact that people generally don't read the post the longer it is.

S_C here doesn't necessarily think Reg is scum, but finds her actions scummy enough to put a vote on based on what she had read so far. Yet she criticized me for doing the same thing. That's off to me.

And while I'm not yet very sure about a regfan lynch, I think some pressure should be put in his direction.

Seriously? You yelled at me for like 2 pages about what I did, yet you did the same damn thing. -_-

In other news, out of curiosity, if I were to cop to being a Town Miller, what would general reaction be?

That is the absolute worst claim I've ever seen. Instead of outright claiming miller, you are testing the waters to see if you'll be scummy for it?

Also, lurking is not scummy. It doesn't help the town, therefore it's antitown. Scummy is something scum would do more than town would. Town is just as likely to lurk as scum, probably more, as scum's own goal is to appear protown, therefore they're less likely to lurk, but that part is just my opinion.
Also, you just said that you think lurking is scummy? But your last post you said that volk was right and it was just antitown? This is poor waffling.

S_C: Post examples where you've asked that scummy-as-hell miller question before please.

Tclar is very protown
Subgenius is very protown: I didn't even this of this example of S_C hypocrisy
Truant is super straightforward here: I love it. I don't really like the lack of reasoning behind his foses, but I do love his straightforwardness.

I also notice that his own answers are slightly suspect, since he has an "I'm so town, lookit me scumhunt", and this has rarely boded particularly good. It screams of either 'newbie town' or 'nervous scum' though given how he feels about rvs he must be at least a little bit experienced.

I'm not sure what this even means... -_- Scumhunting is either newb town or nervous scum? Also, I don't like how you did that. You kinda just threw it out there "he must be a little bit experienced [so there is no way he's newb town, so he must be nervous scum]."

Though I do like the 2nd big paragraph by S_C here. Good explanation for his vote on Reg, even if I don't agree with it.

Tclwren here: I agree with your first statement absolutely. Your 2nd one is ridiculous. The miller question is not related to THIS game in the least. Also, claiming that he's reaction testing is terrible. At the least he is acting as if he were reaction testing town to appear more protown herself (which CAN actually have protown motives: Town, especially PRtown, wants to appear more town to gain trust from the town, though scum has the same motive in order to gain the town's trust and appear to blend with the town) and at most (though a bit of a stretch) testing the waters to whether or not she should claim miller herself. The question directed at volkan is pretty easily connected the "at most" situation as volkan had the same thought as me and does not want her to know what town thinks before committing herself to a claim.

Regfan's response is quite protown and explains his reasons very well. RQS generally does yield more results than RVS. The fact that Regfan is very committed to his stance on RVS is quite protown and unwavering. When someone is firm in their stance on something, even despite the entire town disagreeing, that is protown.

[subgenius]

That is the absolute worst claim I've ever seen. Instead of outright claiming miller, you are testing the waters to see if you'll be scummy for it?

If you believe this is the claim that people keep mentioning, you are mistaken.

[Maxous]

so is it true that you want to shorten the day? It is lower because I didnt like the rush to lynch him...however, it is moot at this point (at least in regards to SC) because of the soft claim.....do I need to explain why it is moot too?

The reasoning for wanting to lynch Yura then, was not because I have a liking for shortened days.
At the time I thought it would be better simply to lynch Yura rather than simply have somebody try to explain all the actions away as town, then people like yourself coming to this conclusion.

Wait, why is Haylen doing a ISO of yura?....that is ridiculous and a waste of time….

the end is always going to be scummy

, but I am not scum…or newbie.

Did'nt want to put someone through the trouble. Too late now however. :/

[CryMeARiver]

That is the absolute worst claim I've ever seen. Instead of outright claiming miller, you are testing the waters to see if you'll be scummy for it?

If you believe this is the claim that people keep mentioning, you are mistaken.

I posted that as I read. If you kept reading what I said, I clearly realized it wasn't a claim later in the post.

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

No, I didn't do the same thing as you. You skipped a WHOLE reread in favor of a vote. I skipped a post or two. World of difference.

That aside, none of the places I've asked it before are on this site, and most of the sites it has been on require a register.

As a side note, I've found that, more often then not, scum players lock onto the question and try and drag someone down for it. Just saying.

Also, I've noticed that, in spite of us wanting to lynch yura not too long ago, lo and fucking behold, Haylen has kind of managed to convince you all that YURA WAS TOWN. This is, to say the least, unnacceptable. I'll ACCEPT and Andrew lynch, but I'm 90% more likely to think that Yura was SK then that ANdrew was, and at this point, it is in EVERYBODY's best interest, scum and town alike, to kill the SK. ANYTHING we can do to peel it back to 1 death a night rather then 2 is INCTREDIBLY beneficiel.

[subgenius]

That is the absolute worst claim I've ever seen. Instead of outright claiming miller, you are testing the waters to see if you'll be scummy for it?

If you believe this is the claim that people keep mentioning, you are mistaken.

I posted that as I read. If you kept reading what I said, I clearly realized it wasn't a claim later in the post.

Alright, well I look forward to hearing your opinion on the reason why nobody else is voting for bgg when you reach it in your catch up.

I find it strange that you feel compelled to proclaim how townie your slot is during your catchup. Also, why are you addressing dead players (tclawren)?

[Surprise_Carcinogen]

Also, being unyielding in spite of the whole down disagreeing is not, in my mind, pro-town. Town players are NEVER going to be certain, and so other people's opinions SHOULD matter, and help change your mind. The only people who can actually afford to be entirely certain and unwavering are the Scum, who have no doubts.

[vollkan]

The first thing that sticks out is that he doesn't seem to be reading the thread very well.

Which isn't a scumtell

The second thing that sticks out is that he seems to be posting unrelated information. Usually, I would disregard this, but he mentioned that Yura talked like a man at least twice. When you start repeating useless things like that, it's more because you want to fill space in your posts than goofing around.

My recollection is that spammy stuff hasn't been the bulk of his play though...

ISO#9 is fairly strange as well. After attacking S_C about deflecting the conversation away from day 1, S_C makes a post saying "Well, what would you like me to refer to about day 1?". ISO#9 quotes this exact post, and says "again, you are pointing to my lack of posts to suggest that i am lurking and to discredit my case." He then goes on to attack him more for deflecting. I can't make heads or tails of it.

This I agree with. It makes no sense to me. Not in a scummy way - but in a VI way

Finally, there's something off to me about his votes and suspicions, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Help me out?

I suspect that the sense of something being 'amiss' is really just a reaction to his poor play. As a point of contrast, Yura was probably worse at the game, but she was much easier to read. Whereas, Andrew is not as bad as Yura (or, at least, prone to weird outbursts), but also much harder to pinpoint any alignment on. Since his play hasn't been objectively pro-town (in the sense that he has made no contribution - not in the sense of being scummy), the common inclination is to think his play is scummy (this is a pattern that is common in respect of VI-ish players)

@bgg, well surprise soft claimed and it concluded you in the 'innocent' list, so ill wait till he claims.

This is a frankly ridiculous position to take. If you believe SC, then you ought to believe it is more likely that bgg is town than not. If you don't believe SC, well explain why.

Also, I've noticed that, in spite of us wanting to lynch yura not too long ago, lo and fucking behold, Haylen has kind of managed to convince you all that YURA WAS TOWN. This is, to say the least, unnacceptable. I'll ACCEPT and Andrew lynch, but I'm 90% more likely to think that Yura was SK then that ANdrew was, and at this point, it is in EVERYBODY's best interest, scum and town alike, to kill the SK. ANYTHING we can do to peel it back to 1 death a night rather then 2 is INCTREDIBLY beneficiel.

Wha?

Haylen is still at 3 votes. I haven't seen anybody convinced by what Haylen has said (quite the contrary in fact). If there has been a change, it seems to only be that people are (and I'm still confused as to why) finding Andrew increasingly scummy.

[andrew94]

@bgg look at these
geez
post 237 i accused surprise
post 244 surprise defends himself
post 245-246 surprise says i have low posts (AND THAT IS WHERE I SAID WAS THE DEFELCTING)
post254 i say he is deflecting
and so on

No, he didn't because you made an answer that was entirely incorrect for the post you quoted, which means one of two things. Either you misquoted, or you were making up whatever you thought might work. Now, since you have already stated that you did not, in fact, misquote, then there can only really be one logical conclusion.

nice 'trying to trap me into a corner' but bgg just misunderstood.

[andrew94]

also i find surprise's mumbling of lynching the sk = peeling back 1 death = good etc

how about if there is a sk and we fail to lynch it = cross kills?

think about it
10 ppl now
9 ppl lynch, if sk lynched

8ppl at next day (5:3 ratio MYLO)(assuming 3 scum)


so yea i just decided i didnt believe you surprise, claim plz and i have conclusions depending on what u claim

[vollkan]

also i find surprise's mumbling of lynching the sk = peeling back 1 death = good etc

how about if there is a sk and we fail to lynch it = cross kills?

think about it
10 ppl now
9 ppl lynch, if sk lynched

8ppl at next day (5:3 ratio MYLO)(assuming 3 scum)


so yea i just decided i didnt believe you surprise, claim plz and i have conclusions depending on what u claim

WTF is your point?

For starters, SC didn't "mumble" the theory about lynching SK. The fact that you characterise her remarks that way only suggests that you are trying to discredit her on emotional grounds. So

Andrew+5

on that count.

As for the substance of your argument, the only thing I can see you saying is "even if we lynch a SK, it might be MYLO tomorrow". Obviously, that's true - but the situation is pretty clearly worse if we lynched mafia rather than a SK. So, your argument is BS. The fact that you are using such a patently stupid argument to try and make SC claim merits a further

Andrew+5

[vollkan]

@bgg look at these
geez
post 237 i accused surprise
post 244 surprise defends himself
post 245-246 surprise says i have low posts (AND THAT IS WHERE I SAID WAS THE DEFELCTING)
post254 i say he is deflecting
and so on

After the last post, went back and looked at this:

SC defended himself thoroughly in 244. In which case, why is it wrong for him to point out anti-town behaviour from you? It's hardly "deflecting" when he's already dealt with your accusations.

[andrew94]

hmm? my post disappered
typing it again..


did you not see my 'crosskills' part before commenting? lol i have alrady made a case agianst surprise, i dont need to downgrade surprise by saying he 'mumbles', do you know what mumble means? im pretty sure it means speaking retardedly.and thus i said that that point is wrong, not a 'discredit' dumbass.
also, did you even read 244? are you saying that is a good defence? in the next post surprise basically just pointed out my lurking, which i explained on day 1 'going to tourney' to DEFLECT MY CASE.
i forgot what was next in my train of thought......

anyway, im pretty sure i said pretty crap stuff, so how come i only got +10 so far? lol

[vollkan]

did you not see my 'crosskills' part before commenting?

You're seriously arguing that it's better not to lynch a SK because there 'might' be a cross-kill?

lol i have alrady made a case agianst surprise, i dont need to downgrade surprise by saying he 'mumbles', do you know what mumble means? im pretty sure it means speaking retardedly.and thus i said that that point is wrong, not a 'discredit' dumbass.

Actually, "mumble" means "to speak quietly or inaudibly". And, as for your argument, see my previous post for why it's rubbish (again, it's absurd to argue that eliminating a scum faction is not the best use of a lynch)

also, did you even read 244? are you saying that is a good defence?

Your argument against him was a speculative conspiracy that he voted for Yura to divert attention from him being the hammerer. It has no proof, relies on an assumption that SC would be dumb enough to think that the rest of us are dumb enough to think hammering is scummy, and ignores entirely the strong case against Yura. Against such a bad case, 244 is fine. Frankly, I wouldn't have even taken your 237 seriously if it had been directed against me.

in the next post surprise basically just pointed out my lurking, which i explained on day 1 'going to tourney' to DEFLECT MY CASE.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with his defence in 244, he responded to your case - so you can't argue that he was trying to deflect.

[CryMeARiver]

That is the absolute worst claim I've ever seen. Instead of outright claiming miller, you are testing the waters to see if you'll be scummy for it?

If you believe this is the claim that people keep mentioning, you are mistaken.

I posted that as I read. If you kept reading what I said, I clearly realized it wasn't a claim later in the post.

Alright, well I look forward to hearing your opinion on the reason why nobody else is voting for bgg when you reach it in your catch up.

I find it strange that you feel compelled to proclaim how townie your slot is during your catchup. Also, why are you addressing dead players (tclawren)?

I don't even remember who my slot is... -_- And when I'm doing a reread, I do it as if it was happening, so I address all players.

[Maxous]

For starters, SC didn't "mumble" the theory about lynching SK. The fact that you characterise her remarks that way only suggests that you are trying to discredit her on emotional grounds. So

Andrew+5

on that count.

As for the substance of your argument, the only thing I can see you saying is "even if we lynch a SK, it might be MYLO tomorrow". Obviously, that's true - but the situation is pretty clearly worse if we lynched mafia rather than a SK. So, your argument is BS. The fact that you are using such a patently stupid argument to try and make SC claim merits a further

Andrew+5

1) That 'mumbles' expression was shown to be a misunderstanding about what it referred to.

2) If we don't lynch the SK today, to realisticly win the game the SK has to take out a mafia. He will almost certainly be aiming for one.
How is the situation worse if we lynch a mafia? The mafia are the greater of two evils to the town (i.e. the biggest threat against the town winning the game). Who the SK is the biggest threat to is the mafia, not the town. The mafia will likely be aiming for the SK as well.
How is this thought BS?

But I agree he should'nt of asked SC to claim.

[vollkan]

For starters, SC didn't "mumble" the theory about lynching SK. The fact that you characterise her remarks that way only suggests that you are trying to discredit her on emotional grounds. So

Andrew+5

on that count.

As for the substance of your argument, the only thing I can see you saying is "even if we lynch a SK, it might be MYLO tomorrow". Obviously, that's true - but the situation is pretty clearly worse if we lynched mafia rather than a SK. So, your argument is BS. The fact that you are using such a patently stupid argument to try and make SC claim merits a further

Andrew+5

1) That 'mumbles' expression was shown to be a misunderstanding about what it referred to.

You're right. His position is still wrong, but his "I thought it meant retarded" explanation really just means he was making a standard rhetorical attack so

Andrew-5

2) If we don't lynch the SK today, to realisticly win the game the SK has to take out a mafia. He will almost certainly be aiming for one.
How is the situation worse if we lynch a mafia? The mafia are the greater of two evils to the town (i.e. the biggest threat against the town winning the game). Who the SK is the biggest threat to is the mafia, not the town. The mafia will likely be aiming for the SK as well.
How is this thought BS?

I haven't done the math on this, but if we go on the assumption that eliminating one NK altogether is better that weakening one by half or one-third, then it stands to reason that lynching SK is better. In any event, this is really distracting from the central point - which is that, no matter how debatable this issue is, it's patently ridiculous for Andrew to suspect SC, to the point of demanding a claim, based on the theory (when the theory appears to be against him - certainly, he hasn't shown any understanding to the contrary - and at best is ambiguous)

[subgenius]

I don't even remember who my slot is... -_- And when I'm doing a reread, I do it as if it was happening, so I address all players.

Well, atm you're voting for someone who several people consider to be at least provisionally clear without showing any interest in why other people think he's cleared. At your current reread pace, you might be caught up in a month. To a certain extent, I feel like you're dragging your feet in an effort to avoid posting any content that's meaningful to the current game. Your stream of conscience posting style seems to lend itself better to creating an appearance of activity than actually presenting useful cases.

And still, it blows my mind that you haven't inquired more deeply about S_C's claim, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that you display no interest in this leads me to think you really don't give a damn about who you're voting for since you're clearly not interested enough in seeing new evidence to either ask where this claim happened or to read more than 2 pages of the thread in the week or so since you've joined the game. This has scum written all over it. A town player would have a keen interest in assessing a claim that may or may not clear some players.

[Maxous]

^
River has indeed not been the most convincing.
I did want to let himself and Haylen finish but we only have 2 days before deadline, so time is running out. As a town a decision has to be made soon.

In any event, this is really distracting from the central point - which is that, no matter how debatable this issue is, it's patently ridiculous for Andrew to suspect SC, to the point of demanding a claim, based on the theory (when the theory appears to be against him - certainly, he hasn't shown any understanding to the contrary - and at best is ambiguous)

Okay that's fair.

[Regfan]

My re-read failed miserably, I got to page 10 and then couldn't stop headdesking. I'm completly up to date on the recent occurances and I don't think it's possible for me to agree more with Subgenius's #795 post then I currently am. With that said I really want to hear Haylen/CryMe's final reads/thoughts of the game thus far, and they really need to speed up for this deadline.

@Ckd, I made my thoughts on Bggs pressure vote known, it really is stupid especially after it's been discussed earlier in the thread - With that said I maintain my town-read on S_C and that town-read leads Bgg to be town via relation.

Unvote, Vote: CryMe

[CryMeARiver]

I don't even remember who my slot is... -_- And when I'm doing a reread, I do it as if it was happening, so I address all players.

Well, atm you're voting for someone who several people consider to be at least provisionally clear without showing any interest in why other people think he's cleared. At your current reread pace, you might be caught up in a month. To a certain extent, I feel like you're dragging your feet in an effort to avoid posting any content that's meaningful to the current game. Your stream of conscience posting style seems to lend itself better to creating an appearance of activity than actually presenting useful cases.

And still, it blows my mind that you haven't inquired more deeply about S_C's claim, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that you display no interest in this leads me to think you really don't give a damn about who you're voting for since you're clearly not interested enough in seeing new evidence to either ask where this claim happened or to read more than 2 pages of the thread in the week or so since you've joined the game. This has scum written all over it. A town player would have a keen interest in assessing a claim that may or may not clear some players.

I have an absolute interest in his claim. I see no reason to inquire about it as I'm sure I will see it in my reread. It shall not take a month, it just takes time that I don't currently have with college at my doorstep.

[subgenius]

@ CMAR

Well, you've done 2 pages in a week. At your current rate, you'll be caught up in about 15 weeks. In the mean time, your vote is on a player that is possibly cleared, and your second fos is the person who cleared him. You have shown very little initiative in finding new reads or explaining why anybody should change their minds on bgg's alignment, since you haven't addressed the reason why people think he's town. At this point, your vote is in a useless spot, and you're doing nothing to make it less useless. Since you've replaced in, you have done little aside from fos'ing two players that have almost zero chance of being lynched today, posted a response to the first two pages without saying how it informs your view of the game as it currently stands, and provided excuses for why you haven't been able to form proper reads in a timely manner.

Also, you seem to think that your refusal to please other players is a town tell, but I think it's more symptomatic of either a lack of effort or a scum player going out of his way to appear independent and stubborn in the belief that it makes him look like a townie. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't. Speaking for myself, I can only view stubbornness as a town tell if the player in question has convinced me that he is acting out of a sincere belief that his obstinate behavior is in the town's best interest. You have not done this, leading me to think that your stubbornness, combined with your argument that this stubbornness should be perceived as a town tell, is an act rather than an example of a confidently independent town player.