Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[VP Baltar]

it's called sarcasm. Ill dumb down my material from here on out.

[VP Baltar]

Because I really had no interest in a LL lynch, as much has been clear for quite some time.


So yeah, I didn't read it. "I wonder why" instead of "Hmm actually it maeks no sense that Fate didn't juts hop onto the LL counter-wagon to his own if he was scum" = you slinging mud in the former INSTEAD OF putting things into perspective and scumhunting in the latter

I made a legit case and the fact that you won't even give it a glance says plenty about your motivations there. I don't care what you think of LL. I made a solid case with good scumhunting that was worth a two second lynch. Now you die.

[GreyICE]

Ok, I did some rereading of Ythill and SD today. The things that stand out to me are:

1) Ythill was all over LuckayLuck like a cheap suit as long as he was alive. Like, worse than he was riding me even. He mildly pushed SD, but not nearly enough for SD to want him dead night 1 in my opinion. Luckay on the other hand would very likely want him dead. Put the two of them together on a scum team and you have ample reasoning for them to kill Ythill. I highly doubt anyone had a PR read on him.

2) SD doesn't really say much of anything about LL all game. While on his deathbed, SD places LL in the 'third scum what do I know?' category, which seems like a convenient place to put a buddy you haven't paid much attention to all game. They have some mild back and forth that doesn't seem to have much conviction behind it early on and then that's the end of that. The few times they interact seem forced to me.

Additionally, I feel like LL has dropped off the face of the earth as this game has gone on. Not that a lot of people haven't been lazy this game, because they have, but I felt like he was really into the game early on and trying hard. That's why I had a town read on him despite his reads and cases sucking so badly. He's been buddying up to Fate and I all game, as SD was doing too. I think this was a conscious ploy by the scum team to make it Fate+VP vs. RC+AGM. I don't like the suspicion that's been on me this game, but I can probably understand it given I've been kind of lazy and bitchy at times. So, I would think it's reasonable for people that don't have much experience with me to be suspicious over that. SD and LL weren't really at all. That's all WIFOM of course, but that's what my gut is saying.

I'd like LL dead today.

Unvote, Vote:LuckayLuck

This case? 'cause this is one of the ways I push mislynches on town when I'm scum. It's one of the reasons you need to eat fucking dirt.

1) Ythill died, Ythill suspected LuckayLuck, therefore LuckayLuck was scum. Since scum control the kills, you'd be amazed how easy these sorts of things are to pull off. The major problem? Ythill barely got the wagon to three votes. The most consistent about voting Luckay? AGM.

Ythill was pushing among others...

BTW...

UNVOTE: Luck
VOTE: Shadow Dancer

So, that's basically deep, hardcore NK WIFOM. Having it be point 1 is LAME.

2) Shadow Dancer pushed a fairly classic scum pattern that I've noted quite often in other games - limited communication. He seemed to mostly talk to those he was trying to buddy, and possible lynch candidates. Here's an early example of interactions with Luckay:

I agree completely at Shadow Dancer's accusations against Antitown. I read it all the same way. Especially his question of "Please teach me how I should react to a scumclaim." That is such a methodical way of saying it...a mechanical way...a canned way.

And we all know what role methodically, mechanically, and canned plays this game.

Sorry, but since you reference me here I have to insist on this:
The "scumclaim" part is obviously utter bullshit...
And I hope your town play is also methodical in some way.
What is scummy about Anti is that he seems rather focussed on what would keep him out of the line of fire instead of actually making a case.

He just deflects and remains in his tunnel on anti. He never interacts with very many people - LL, Fate, VP Baltar, Crypto, even Conc. Fuck he barely interacts with Red Coyote when voting for him.

3) LL is lurking 'harder' than others because he was 'more active' early game. This is fairly frequent when a player has strong scum and town reads, and has the wind knocked out of their sails by flips. Known null-townish behavior, VP.


In short, this isn't even a very CONVINCING case I'd use to push a mislynch on town. It's based mostly on shit Shadow dancer did, everything in the case could apply to half the thread, and you seem to find it scummy in such a way it's nearly impossible to refute.

You should

DIE

for this fucking case, VP.

[VP Baltar]

This is jack's total sense of not caring what you have to say Grey.

[VP Baltar]

Just as a side note for when this game is done, if you don't act like a twat I will most likely respond to you in a fair manner and give you my best effort, regardless of what you think about my alignment. The fact that you misrepresent every single point in that case to make it fit your tunneling and sound weaker than it actually is doesn't really give me any incentive to debate it with you.

[Fate]

^This is how VP scum flails. Just turns up the snark-o-meter to FULL TILT

[VP Baltar]

Really? Where did I do this?

[GreyICE]

Just as a side note for when this game is done, if you don't act like a twat I will most likely respond to you in a fair manner and give you my best effort, regardless of what you think about my alignment. The fact that you misrepresent every single point in that case to make it fit your tunneling and sound weaker than it actually is doesn't really give me any incentive to debate it with you.

'kay.

I don't negotiate with terrorists.

[VP Baltar]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You don't get to act like you want to have an open discussion about things and then be completely snarky to every single thing I say. You've reached your conclusions since before you even bothered to read the game, so it's quite pointless for me to act like you care what my responses to you are at all. Agree or disagree?

[GreyICE]

A totally not contrived and very serious case on why AGM is scum that does not parody any other cases in the thread

1) Shadow dancer's initial 'read' on AGM was very weak, and looks more like distancing from a scumbuddy than pushing a town lynch. Voting at L-1, he gains town cred for the scum wagon at a time when it seems inevitable.

His commentary seems to suggest as much:

And who's already talking about claiming and hammering? I thought this was agreed on as a pressure waggon? Alma should defend himself and contribute some reads, as far as I am concerned.

Basically, he's looking for town cred for the red flip, while still trying to derail the wagon (we agree it's just for pressure, etc. etc.). As the wagon goes away, he goes back to not mentioning AGM except to explain his vote. Day 2 he returns, again with a vote suggesting he's not happy voting for AGM:

AGM's still not looking good, pretty much back to fence sitting with some defensiveness in between. I would be quite happy with that lynch. And RC waggon seems to bobble somwhere in nowhere again

Unvote. Vote AGM

L-1

The third time his vote lands on, he votes, then immediately attempts to distance from the lynch, with this series of posts:

vote Alma

then.

IN CASE NO ONE NOTICED: CONC MADE A STUNNING 180° TURN FROM OPPOSING A CLAIM TO APPROVING IT, OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT EVEN REMEBERING HER EARLIER OPINION.
BUT ANYWAY, FORGET THE CLAIM NOW SINCE ALMA JUST MADE IT IRRELEVANT.

Again, worried that his buddy will go down without him getting town cred, and in fact getting him lots of scum points when he's already in a bad way.

His last acts are distancing from AGM-scum:

Anyway, this gives me the freedom to try and

UNVOTE. VOTE AGM

Counterwaggon gogogogo!

OK... Let's make a final approach.

Unvote. Vote AGM

Clearly meant to show us that AGM was town as the lynch rolled to inevitable, and he flipped red.

2) AGM's behavior towards shadow:

Because back when SD started being scummy, she got put at L-1, so I was holding off on the vote. Obviously in retrospect I shoulda just thrown the hammer, but WHATEVS. And then the wagon changed back to me and I forgot I wasn't voting for SD.

Unvote; Vote: SD

So basically, he realizes that a double bus is totally going to confirm one of them town, no matter how bad the play is.

I think it's extremely safe to assume SD is scum right now.

And as such, I am very pleased with my Fate vote. He tried INSANELY hard to get that wagon switched off me to SD. That, plus everything Glados said before.

Again, tying SD's red flip (which he knows will occur) to Fate, to get a mislynch on Fate.

Fate, I actually really like your argument about the quickhammer. However, if that incriminates anyone, doesn't incriminate VPB? He sat there with his vote on zoraster POST CLAIM. If that isn't the definition of begging for a quickhammer, I don't know what is.

And I can't find a time when VV was stalling zoraster at L-1...can you link to it?

Then he pushes suspcion on VPB and asks Fate to make a case on VV (It's so much fun to ask town to make a case on town when you're scum!).

So basically, he used a double bus to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, and you all bought it. AGM would be scum without a SD red flip, and that lame on-again, off-again bus they used against each other was clearly a scum tactic to create exactly this situation. Both were nearly worthless to the town, both were getting wagoned, so they double bussed to confirm one or the other, and that's exactly what happened.

And what's he done since then? Shamelessly bandwagon, why he'll join virtually anything that comes up. Fate (after liking him at the beginning of the day), VPB, Crypto, LuckayLuck, there's very few people he doesn't think are scummy. He's just flailing about looking for more mislynches, and you're all giving him a pass because of a double bus by two very scummy players who easily should have been lynched back to back.

We need to lynch AGM today.

=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=---=

Get it, VPB? It's a giant load of circumstantial bollocks. Which, oddly, resembles your LuckayLuck case rather closely.

That's what I mean when I say that that's a case I use as scum to push lynches on town. It's EXACTLY the formatting, it's exactly the weak circumstantial evidence drummed up to 11, it's exactly the lack of conviction and lack of solid motivation that I'm used to.

Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

[GreyICE]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You don't get to act like you want to have an open discussion about things and then be completely snarky to every single thing I say. You've reached your conclusions since before you even bothered to read the game, so it's quite pointless for me to act like you care what my responses to you are at all. Agree or disagree?

No VPB.

I don't care about anything that happens after the game. I don't care if you'll yell at me in the dead thread. I don't care if you'll change your signature to "GreyICE sucks at Mafia." I don't care if you will be very mean to me. I don't care what happens outside of this game. Got it? Got it 100%?

The town will not lose without your input. The town would not be lost without you. The town is not going to lose a game because of your lynch. You 'lording it over me and telling me how foolish I was' in the post game does not scare me. Nothing that happens outside this game is going to influence my actions here.

Town explains their actions and why they're town, and who they think is scummy. Scum threaten me with how I'll lose the game if I lynch them, or look scummy, or get lynched myself, or look really stupid, or be a fucking idiot.

I don't negotiate with Terrorists.

If you want to threaten me, fine. Don't care.

[VP Baltar]

Well, derpity derpity do, in case you haven't noticed we only have one mislynch left. I like to win games. That's why I play mafia, to win. When I have people come into games acting completely belligerent over a bad case and not wanting to hear a word to the contrary, I find it highly irritating. Especially when I look at your profile and see you're 26, so you don't even have age as an excuse for acting that way.

All of my actions have been explained in this game to the best of my ability. I think there is a clear thought process throughout the game as well. You don't like it, that's your choice. If you ask nicely, I'll respond nicely. If you act like a jerk and want to type in all caps, then I'll just ignore and continue to appeal to people that want to be reasonable. Look at how I've responded to Equinox if you want an example. She's been wary of me just as much as you and I've tried to answer all of her queries even if she doesn't agree with me. What do you suspect is the difference in your approaches to the game. Town should definitely explain their actions, but if you make shit cases without reading the game and then act like you're a 15 year old, I don't know on what grounds you expect decency in return.

[GreyICE]

Your case was horrible. It has no town logic, and no town motivation. Shadow's actions applied to many townies. LL's actions are things that many townies have done. Fuck, you admit it yourself. It's not only circumstantial (which most cases in this game are), it's selection bias. You want him to be scum, so you select things in his case that are scummy. Then you put it all together and shout at the town a lot.

I've seen it quite a bit from scum. The last time I saw it from town, it was SingerSigner, and the

actual

case she had was 'I'm the town tracker and he targeted the night kill.'

That

was pretty convincing.

So VP, what's the actual reason you're SO SURE that Fate and LL will flip scum? Why have you waffled on Fate so much? What the hell was up with the buddying up until now? Not a bunch of circumstantial shit around SD, real reasons, real scum motivation, real hard reasoning.

[GreyICE]

Oh and in case you're wondering, I read all of day 2 when I voted for you. That's around 20 pages. Yes, it's an 80 page game (moving on 90 now), I didn't read all of it before contributing to the thread.

If you want to call that 'stupid' or 'scummy' go ahead. I could care less, along with insults to me, my maturity, my age, my gameplay, how dumb I'll look in the post game, or any other things you have to say about me personally.

[AlmasterGM]

lmao is this for real?

[GreyICE]

However did you get a wagon on you? Your posts are so very useful and obvtown.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I completely disagree with your point that SD was under more heat from Ythill. Seriously, if you look at his iso, Ythill was banging the drum most of the day for an LL wagon. His attacks on SD were not nearly that strong. If they had survival motivation for killing him it was because of LL, not SD. This is cold hard scum motivation you're asking about.

SD said plenty of things about the players you listed. Hell, he was buddying up to me in pretty much every single reads post he made. Same thing with Fate to a lesser degree. Additionally, I find the few interactions between SD and LL to be very forced in nature. It's not just that it's SD either, that channel goes both ways. When SD is in his death throes he places LL on his scumlist seemingly out of left field. The scum motivation here is distancing. It was done poorly.

The final point about LL dropping off is admittedly the weakest. There are town motivations to do this, including simple apathy about this game. If you want to call that one null, so be it. I consider it more corroborating evidence to the first two points than the latter.

In terms of Fate, I find his flop on me when he was seemingly in trouble again to be scummy. He is sheeping your case and trying to take credit for it. Additionally, he is trying to bully me into calling him town, which is bullshit. SD's vote on Equinox yesterday to save Fate from the guillotine is suspicious. Admittedly, I wrote it off before because I did have a strong town read on him. However, 90 percent of my town read on him was based on playstyle and little else. It is very possible that Fate is playing to his town meta this game (considering he's hyper aware of it) and I decided to reconsider. Now he's flailing hard. For example, he says he wouldn't proxy his vote. Why is that? Seems to me like if you get lynched, proxying your vote to a strong town read like RC is optimal play in this setup. It removes WIFOM from the equation.

I hope this has explained my position to you so you don't feel like I'm making so many threats.

[AlmasterGM]

However did you get a wagon on you? Your posts are so very useful and obvtown.

it's not a wagon. it's just you.

and as far as being useful, i 100% agree - I checked the fuck out of this game over 10 pages ago. This is an 80 page game. I'm voting for Fate based on past evidence. That ain't gonna change because of some WOOO LOOO back and forth.

[GreyICE]

However did you get a wagon on you? Your posts are so very useful and obvtown.

it's not a wagon. it's just you.

and as far as being useful, i 100% agree - I checked the fuck out of this game over 10 pages ago. This is an 80 page game. I'm voting for Fate based on past evidence. That ain't gonna change because of some WOOO LOOO back and forth.

Are you
fucking
high?

You're obvtown. Just USELESS this game.

[AlmasterGM]

i actually am

and very paranoid

digital circuits are much more fun this way

heheheheeeeee

[GreyICE]

And this is why we need to lynch scum today and tomorrow, Fate. Guess whose alive in 3 man LyLo?

[AlmasterGM]

now now grey

don't be hatin

i can pull it together in lylo

...

...

...

JUST KIDDING IM LIKE ZERO FOR THREE IN LYLO

[GreyICE]

I can just see it right now. LyLo = chesskid 3, AGM, LuckayLuck.

AGM, if it does go there and you vote Luck, I will gouge your eyes out with a spoon. At least you can blame that one on me if you lose.

[VP Baltar]

Grey - I gave you a fair and civil response to your post. I am trying to bury the hatchet. You have nothing to say in reply to that?

[hitogoroshi]

Vote Count #74

Around 16 hours until deadline.

Fate: Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote, AlmasterGM, VP Baltar (L-1!)

VP Baltar: GreyICE, Fate, Equinox, LuckayLuck (L-1!)

LuckayLuck: chesskid3
Chesskid3:

Luckayluck

Not voting:

No one.

On guillotine:

Equinox

Deadline is on April 19th, 2011, at 2PM Central Time.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to end the day immediately.

With no new votes until deadline, Fate will be placed on guillotine.