Newbie 1087: Welcome To The Jungle (Game Over)

[RayFrost]

Being chummy with people and defending people you think is town is not a scumtell.

1. Townies defend people they think are town
2. Some players (like myself) actively choose to be "chummy" with players. I'm chummy all the time. With everyone I like.

[KittyMo]

I'm so, so, sorry, but I have to replace out immediately due to a family problem. PMing the mod with the name of a potential replacement.

Have a good game, and catch some scum for me.

I likely won't be on site for a long time. I'll miss you.

<3,

KittyMo

[jindori]

Being chummy with people and defending people you think is town is not a scumtell.

1. Townies defend people they think are town
2. Some players (like myself) actively choose to be "chummy" with players. I'm chummy all the time. With everyone I like.

I have to agree with ray on this point. But seriously i don't know how you could see toxic as town. Look he uses emotional posts to dodge some questions. Seriously I'm convinced his scum.

[RayFrost]

It's his d1 play that really feels like town to me. I feel the push on him from then was poorly logic'd, and the players in question who did it that are alive are actually rather scummy, imo. As a result, I don't think he's scum. Emotional plays are very, very commonly used even though they are bad, both in and out of newbie games, by town and scum. I think that's a null thing unless it's in tandem with bad pushes and stances and other things.

That said, I'm starting to doubt my jindori distaste here. I'm especially not liking voidedmafia's recent posts re: the toxic situation. It really reads like he's sheeping me but trying to lead the lynch to jindori over david. Voided: explain whether you think both are scum and why you disagree / agree with me on the matter. What do you think are particularly good points by toxic in the debate? o you have any opinions that

aren't

already being stated by me? Seriously.

[Tasky]

VOTECOUNT 2.5 (unchanged)

jindori (2/4): toxictaipan, Voidedmafia
David Xanatos (2/4): RayFrost, KittyMo
toxictaipan (2/4): David Xanatos, jindori
Voidedmafia (1/4): ajolin

Not voting (0): //

Deadline is 08.05.2011 at 11:00 CET.

__

I'm so, so, sorry, but I have to replace out immediately due to a family problem. PMing the mod with the name of a potential replacement.

Ok. I'm now looking for a replacement.

[toxictaipan]

lol your obv misqouting that on purpose it was clearly understanble when i put it in the right context and plus i am trying not to quote wall. Re read the thing it was a reply to that post of course it was reffering to that.

lol no. I'm not obviously misquoting something on purpose. I guess I can see where you're coming from, but your English made it really hard to understand at first. You can't blame me for that.

Being chummy with people and defending people you think is town is not a scumtell.

1. Townies defend people they think are town
2. Some players (like myself) actively choose to be "chummy" with players. I'm chummy all the time. With everyone I like.

I have to agree with ray on this point. But seriously i don't know how you could see toxic as town. Look he uses emotional posts to dodge some questions. Seriously I'm convinced his scum.

So... I accuse you of dodging questions, and then you accuse me of dodging questions? Didn't we

just

do this? How come every time I say something about you, you turn around say the same thing about me?

I'm not using emotional posts. I don't see how you can figure that. I used caps lock for like one line worth of text. I'd hardly call that emotional, but YMMV, I guess.


I don't know how you could see me as scum. Your case against me only has two or three "major" points, and they're rather poor ones at that.

1. You claim I displayed information only mafia could know during the beginning of the game. You refuse to accept the fact that I was joking. You continue to ignore other players who have made similar actions as myself, and thus should be just as likely considered as scum. You claim to have grilled the other players, but when I ask for references, I never get them.
2. You claim I used David as a tool to get my vote in on Twistedspoon. This is probably the best point you have. I'll admit, I didn't really give a good, thorough explanation for my vote, but I wrote what I meant. Am I not allowed to agree with other players in the game? If I do agree with them, do I have to write my own essay on why I agree with them, instead of just simply saying that I agree?
3. One line of text worth of caps lock is considered emotional and that's a good reason to lynch me. You claim I'm dodging questions, but I have seen no secondary attempt to get them answered. If you would point out any questions you feel I've left unanswered, I'd be glad to answer them for you.


And that's about all you've got. I'm sorry, but those just don't seem like good reasons for lynching someone. If you somehow manage to get me lynched, you're going to be really disappointed when I come back as town-aligned. You'll have absolutely nothing to go on to find the scum because you were too busy focusing on one player. You'll never catch scum who use poor reasoning for choosing to vote for me, because your

whole case

against me is illogical to begin with. You would just end up giving the scum a free lynch. You, in turn, look scummy (more scummy than you already look, that is), and would likely be lynched. If you're town, you would just be giving the scum

2

free lynches. Even if your efforts are sincere, they're poorly executed and counterproductive.

We, as a team, have done absolutely no scum hunting today because you've spent all your time pitching a poor case against the easiest target. I went with it because you made yourself look more guilty with each reply, and since I thought you were scum, that was okay. I thought we were getting somewhere. However, I'm not so sure now, and I feel like this whole thing may have been a

massive

waste of time, and that's not okay. That's not okay at all.

[toxictaipan]

So... I accuse you of dodging questions, and then you accuse me of dodging questions? Didn't we

just

do this? How come every time I say something about you, you turn around say the same thing about me?

Small correction here. I forgot that we determined you were trying to quote me instead of accuse me about the bandwagon thing. Sorry, my mistake.

The point still stands, however.

[Tasky]

DeathRowKitty replaces KittyMo, effective immediately.
Thank you DeathRowKitty.

[DeathRowKitty]

Hello all (and RayFrost). I'll start reading the thread in a few hours. If anyone has anything they think I should be focusing on, they should say so before I start reading.

[DeathRowKitty]

So apparently "3 hour lab" actually meant "We only need you here for 10 minutes and then you can go." Which I'm perfectly fine with. So I'm catching up on the game now!

From the first couple of pages, first thing that stands out is jindori throwing his vote around like crazy. He votes RayFrost (for a seemingly serious reason) here, makes a worthless statement about it here, votes toxictaipan here for...I don't really get what reason (but this also looks like a serious vote), followed by a random vote. Going from two different serious votes to an announced random vote is practically saying "I don't really believe what I'm saying." On top of that, his next post says he'll stick with his random vote until he finds someone better....but wasn't he already voting 2 different players for serious reasons?

FoS jindori

Also from the first few pages, TS, you know I love you, but I think I can already see how you ended up getting lynched. >_> (Edit: well, you started looking townish around pages 4 and 5...)

Hairy ball theorem: You can't comb a (very) hairy ball flat without creating a cowlick.

Silly 3-dimensional beings. I am perfectly capable of combing the hair on my 4-dimensional hypersphere head flat...and not a single cowlick!

This is DX's second post (His first was here.) Both of his posts thus far have expressed a desire to cast a vote without actually doing so. Scummy for reason of not wanting to commit.

FoS David Xanatos

Mod, are you in an algebraic topology course or something? First the hairy ball theorem and now Borsuk-Ulam! Good stuff.

David Xanatos's post here is...odd. I can't tell at this point if he's genuinely concerned about quickhammers or if he just doesn't want to put down a vote because he's lolscum.

jindori lining up lynches is awful (check his next post if you don't understand what he's saying in this one). It's especially interesting to note that he suggests lynching himself if Twistedspoon flips scum. With TS having already flipped town, this looks a lot like a meaningless gesture to try to gain some town points, without ever having to face that threat of lynch since TS was town.

- Voidedmafia is happily joining every setup discussion but has done zero scumhunting so far.

This is a good point (and something I was starting to notice too at the time). It's easier and more natural for scum to discuss theory than it is for them to discuss who's town and who's scum. Scum don't have to lie about theory, whereas they have to make up their reads. Keeping a bit of a closer eye on VM.

When Voidedmafia does eventually get around to discussing his reads (this post), he votes Twistedspoon "for hypocrisy and further actions that add on to [him] being scummy," but parts of the post concerning Twisted are really underdeveloped (one or two comments about Twisted + a final note that basically says "and everything Ray said!")

Still really confused about DX. He continues to do nothing and says he's lurking while he gets a feel of people, yet has fairly certain reads when questioned about them.

Pages 8 and 9 from VM are feeling more townish.

It's already been pointed out, but this is waaaaayyyy scummy. Scum quickhammer, anyone?

---

I'm currently through page 11. Kind of started losing focus around page 9 due to being tired. I'll probably finish up reading tonight (tomorrow if not) and give some finalized reads and throw a vote down. If my reads seem a bit of a non-sequitur from what I've posted so far (which is not unlikely), it's because I'm normally more of a gut read-type player, but I'll try to give a decent explanation if that ends up happening.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, should probably just clarify, I'm now the IC in this game. If you have any questions about theory or mechanics or anything like that, feel free to ask and I will answer truthfully regardless of my alignment etc etc

[jindori]

lol your obv misqouting that on purpose it was clearly understanble when i put it in the right context and plus i am trying not to quote wall. Re read the thing it was a reply to that post of course it was reffering to that.

lol no. I'm not obviously misquoting something on purpose. I guess I can see where you're coming from, but your English made it really hard to understand at first. You can't blame me for that.

Being chummy with people and defending people you think is town is not a scumtell.

1. Townies defend people they think are town
2. Some players (like myself) actively choose to be "chummy" with players. I'm chummy all the time. With everyone I like.

I have to agree with ray on this point. But seriously i don't know how you could see toxic as town. Look he uses emotional posts to dodge some questions. Seriously I'm convinced his scum.

So... I accuse you of dodging questions, and then you accuse me of dodging questions? Didn't we

just

do this? How come every time I say something about you, you turn around say the same thing about me?

I'm not using emotional posts. I don't see how you can figure that. I used caps lock for like one line worth of text. I'd hardly call that emotional, but YMMV, I guess.


I don't know how you could see me as scum. Your case against me only has two or three "major" points, and they're rather poor ones at that.

1. You claim I displayed information only mafia could know during the beginning of the game. You refuse to accept the fact that I was joking. You continue to ignore other players who have made similar actions as myself, and thus should be just as likely considered as scum. You claim to have grilled the other players, but when I ask for references, I never get them.
2. You claim I used David as a tool to get my vote in on Twistedspoon. This is probably the best point you have. I'll admit, I didn't really give a good, thorough explanation for my vote, but I wrote what I meant. Am I not allowed to agree with other players in the game? If I do agree with them, do I have to write my own essay on why I agree with them, instead of just simply saying that I agree?
3. One line of text worth of caps lock is considered emotional and that's a good reason to lynch me. You claim I'm dodging questions, but I have seen no secondary attempt to get them answered. If you would point out any questions you feel I've left unanswered, I'd be glad to answer them for you.


And that's about all you've got. I'm sorry, but those just don't seem like good reasons for lynching someone. If you somehow manage to get me lynched, you're going to be really disappointed when I come back as town-aligned. You'll have absolutely nothing to go on to find the scum because you were too busy focusing on one player. You'll never catch scum who use poor reasoning for choosing to vote for me, because your

whole case

against me is illogical to begin with. You would just end up giving the scum a free lynch. You, in turn, look scummy (more scummy than you already look, that is), and would likely be lynched. If you're town, you would just be giving the scum

2

free lynches. Even if your efforts are sincere, they're poorly executed and counterproductive.

We, as a team, have done absolutely no scum hunting today because you've spent all your time pitching a poor case against the easiest target. I went with it because you made yourself look more guilty with each reply, and since I thought you were scum, that was okay. I thought we were getting somewhere. However, I'm not so sure now, and I feel like this whole thing may have been a

massive

waste of time, and that's not okay. That's not okay at all.

Hate to say it but town response

unvote

But twos thing you said is wrong, this hasn't been a waste of time and ajolin was the easier target. I avoided ajolin because i thought scum would be all over him and I. But I admit to tunneling you after a certain point. But here's something I just thought of what if scum were to split into both sides yet remained third party that way there's a high chance that scum will survive. Putting together scum teams already is a bad thing to do at this stage. Only when one person is voted should we see if they worked together and who their interactions were with.

@ninjaed by deathrowkitty OK tnx for the info.

[ajolin]

Welcome to the game Kitty.

[Voidedmafia]

That said, I'm starting to doubt my jindori distaste here. I'm especially not liking voidedmafia's recent posts re: the toxic situation. It really reads like he's sheeping me

*finds a sheep transformation potion, drinks it, then rubs against your leg, bleating all the while*

but trying to lead the lynch to jindori over david.

David is, again, too lurkish, and therefore too null, to really get anything. Yes, he reactions to be asked for content could be seen as scummy, and yes, he's been lacking in regards to content, but I want to wait to see if he can actually pull a good, content-full post after he's done studying for that test/exam before I go any farther on him.

Voided: explain whether you think both are scum and why you disagree / agree with me on the matter.

Toxic's town, Jin's scum. And excuse me if you think that I'm sheeping again, but Toxic pretty much summed up most of my thoughts as to their back-and-forth here. I mean, if you really want me to do better, I can try, but Toxic's #355 is where it's at in regards to lynching Jin.

What do you think are particularly good points by toxic in the debate?

The aformentioned #355.
Paragraph 3 in #332 is also a good point, and Jin's reply to that point in #333 was weak as hell, not to mention strawmanning (or whatever would be appropriate).
Rightfully pointing out that you, ray, weren't hit as much for joking around D1 than he, Toxic, was by Jin. In fact, Jin actually was joking along with you.
AtE-ing what Toxic said in all caps in #334, which isn't worth anything at all since he only did it once.

or you have any opinions that

aren't

already being stated by me? Seriously.

Implying I've always agreed with what you said and never gave my own opinions. Seriously, now.

Wow, this entire thing is just tragic. It makes me want to cut out my eyes so I don't have to read it.

Deal. I read it and I'm not bleeding out of my eyes.

I have an idea. Scum usually don't vote for scum buddies unless they think the scum buddy will be lynched, when they'll try to bandwagon to "confirm" themselves.

Or they could start a wagon on their partner based on actions that they've done that actually are scummy. Would that lead to them "confirming" themselves?

We have two potential scum teams. I'm not picking a side yet, because obviously shit's going down hardcore and I want to be sure before I vote either way.

What about you, me, or Deathkitty? (And yes, I will call you that because it's an awesome name)

Better still, Jin has a point. Why ARE we even bringing up scumteams at this point? Sure, we have interactions that could possibly point us in the right direction, but we have nothing that is really definite enough.

[jindori]

So can i ask who brought up scum teams in the first place. That may be a good place to start.

[toxictaipan]

Also, just to explain my reason for the caps lock earlier: That was just a form of emphasis. It seemed there was a miscommunication between me and jindori (one of many, apparently...). He seemed to think I was accusing him of jumping on a bandwagon against me. I was merely trying to get his attention and point out what I meant more clearly -- that he was the leader of the bandwagon and actively pitching a case against me in an attempt to get other players to vote for me.

[jindori]

Well then if i had a case that doesn't really make it a band wagon on you from your definition (i Think a band wagon is just players voting one player.). It means i actually was putting a case down with reasons. Players who join with no reason are band wagoners. I thought you were scum through gut on the second day. When I found you voted twisted with out displaying a reason of your own.( It's considered scummy to vote someone with out displaying an reason of your own.) I thought yep his def scum and started tunneling from there.

[Tasky]

Mod, are you in an algebraic topology course or something? First the hairy ball theorem and now Borsuk-Ulam! Good stuff.

No, I'm just a high-school-student interested in maths (which I will be studying next year after I finish school). Actually my favorite field is category theory, but I like (algebraic) topology too. And there are more "visualizable" theorems in topology
How about you? I'd guess you like maths too.

[toxictaipan]

Well then if i had a case that doesn't really make it a band wagon on you from your definition (i Think a band wagon is just players voting one player.). It means i actually was putting a case down with reasons. Players who join with no reason are band wagoners. I thought you were scum through gut on the second day. When I found you voted twisted with out displaying a reason of your own.( It's considered scummy to vote someone with out displaying an reason of your own.) I thought yep his def scum and started tunneling from there.

No, you misunderstood me, but this time it's probably my fault. A bandwagon is when a player is presenting a case against a player

or

voting for a player in hopes of a lynch, but using poor logic. I didn't make that very clear in my post, I apologize.

If you're scum, in order to start a bandwagon, you have to present a case against a player by using poor logic, hoping that the other players will overlook the flaws in your logic and lynch your chosen town-aligned player. That's what you did. You had a single decent point and the rest of your case was a bunch of illogical stuff. That's why I accused you of starting a bandwagon -- you had a case, but it wasn't a

good

case.

Hopping on a bandwagon is similar. You simply vote for the player in question without providing a reason or by providing very poor reasons.

"Bandwagon," is a pretty general term and can be used differently, that's just how I chose to use it. To me, "bandwagon," represents poor logic. Scum use it to get other people to vote for a player, or to hop on the bandwagon, in other words. They try to get other people to hop on board with their poor logic.

The only other way I would use the term, "bandwagon," is when a bunch of people vote for a single player in order to apply pressure, but only when used

solely

to apply pressure. If there's any other actual reasoning behind the vote, it shouldn't be classified as a bandwagon. It's okay for town-aligned players to bandwagon in this sense.

[jindori]

So i went back to check the scum teams thing

Here's rayfrost first to mention scum teams on day 2 (day1 i mentioned vote this person if he roles town etc not putting teams together. Still stupid of me through)
This may because he was tunneling through so it's really a null

Toxic is town. Jindori and David are the mafia. Everybody else is town because of this. GG.

Second person to mention is way more suspicious.

Wow, this entire thing is just tragic. It makes me want to cut out my eyes so I don't have to read it. I have an idea. Scum usually don't vote for scum buddies unless they think the scum buddy will be lynched, when they'll try to bandwagon to "confirm" themselves.

We have two potential scum teams.[/b

]

I'm not picking a side yet,

because obviously shit's going down hardcore and I want to be sure before I vote either way. Any way, the obvious choices are:

Ray/Toxic

and

Jin/David

. There are other possible combos involving the people not in those pairs, as you could've guessed. The point is,

which pair seemed to be more chummy and defensive of each other? Which looked more like a team of scum, and which looked more like two random towns?

I highlighted the bits i think look suspicious and need more attention. Basically i don't see why a town why says this. So from his post his trying to say hey we have two obv scum teams. There is another possibility he didn't mention they are all town colliding with each other. Basically he will pick the side that looks lest scummy at the time. When he mentions the scum teams his trying to divide players into either category and join. He is also asking players which ones are less suspicious so he will join the lynch on that. FOS at ajolin

@ajolin i will not vote you until you respond to this post giving me a reason why it's pro town(with your history of posts and the quick hammer it seems suspicious.).

@toxic I see what you mean now but the thing is Town can hop on things that seem illogical as well look at twisted. Town don't have that much information. It's mafia job to make something seem scummy they have the advantage. Mafia actually win more games than they lose because they have information. So to a town player anything can be information.

[jindori]

From the first couple of pages, first thing that stands out is jindori throwing his vote around like crazy. He votes RayFrost (for a seemingly serious reason) here, makes a worthless statement about it here, votes toxictaipan here for...I don't really get what reason (but this also looks like a serious vote), followed by a random vote. Going from two different serious votes to an announced random vote is practically saying "I don't really believe what I'm saying." On top of that, his next post says he'll stick with his random vote until he finds someone better....but wasn't he already voting 2 different players for serious reasons?

FoS jindori

jindori lining up lynches is awful (check his next post if you don't understand what he's saying in this one). It's especially interesting to note that he suggests lynching himself if Twistedspoon flips scum. With TS having already flipped town, this looks a lot like a meaningless gesture to try to gain some town points, without ever having to face that threat of lynch since TS was town.



It's already been pointed out, but this is waaaaayyyy scummy. Scum quickhammer, anyone?

---

I'm currently through page 11. Kind of started losing focus around page 9 due to being tired. I'll probably finish up reading tonight (tomorrow if not) and give some finalized reads and throw a vote down. If my reads seem a bit of a non-sequitur from what I've posted so far (which is not unlikely), it's because I'm normally more of a gut read-type player, but I'll try to give a decent explanation if that ends up happening.

Lol if you If you look my point before that you'll see ray frost confused the hell out me. I thought he scum then thought he town then he appeared scummish again so i decided to keep away from voting those two till i could be more clear on them.

The second thing i didn't intend it to be like that but yeah i guess. the vote line up could be viewed that way.

Also like to bring this up before twilight What the hell was in that message from ajolin to kitty(other one)

[toxictaipan]

@toxic I see what you mean now but the thing is Town can hop on things that seem illogical as well look at twisted. Town don't have that much information. It's mafia job to make something seem scummy they have the advantage. Mafia actually win more games than they lose because they have information. So to a town player anything can be information.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Scum try to start a bandwagon with stuff that

sounds

good, but doesn't

actually

make that much sense. It's a trick.

[jindori]

@toxic I see what you mean now but the thing is Town can hop on things that seem illogical as well look at twisted. Town don't have that much information. It's mafia job to make something seem scummy they have the advantage. Mafia actually win more games than they lose because they have information. So to a town player anything can be information.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Scum try to start a bandwagon with stuff that

sounds

good, but doesn't

actually

make that much sense. It's a trick.

Yes but look how similer towns goal is to mafias goal. Town have to pull out information to. Town can only get information through posts. So even if that joke was illogical it was the only thing at the time.Say you are town then someone puts a case against you. The case looks very good and well structured. Say you vote the player in responce knowing your town. Then some how that player gets lynched and guess what that player was town. Town players will know nothing about other town. There's no way to know who's who.

So you got to look for things that don't seem right. Mafia can also look town because they have more info. More information = bigger advantage. Also the type of player factors in ray and I like to take gambits (no matter the aliengment which draws attention to us) A diffrence between me and frosty is i vote hop he deals with one player at a time. Some players like to play it safe, Some players are just douches and useless(cworl cough cough pray you never play with him) everything factors in. There no such thing as a gaurenteed scumtell that always works otherwise town will always win. Hell sometimes the towniest player is actually scum.

[ajolin]

It appears to me that Jin and Voided missed the part of the post where I said... "There are other possible combos involving the people not in those pairs, as you could've guessed."

[ajolin]

Oh yeah Jin, it was about how post editing works. I was curious because I thought I made a typo a bit back. It's cool now though.