Newbie 1079: Feed the Lynch Mob (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.04

Herodotus (2) - Nachomamma8, pandabear
Nachomamma8 (2) - Traveller, Herodotus
thil13 (2) - GreyICE, tarsonisocelot

Not Voting (1) - thil13

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, May 1, 2011, at 11:59 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[GreyICE]

Ok, the day's activity featured Nacho accusing Hero of being scum and Hero's response to the same, as well as his reasons for declaring Nacho scummy. My vote has been on Nacho for awhile now, but I have had my suspicions about Hero as well. But, it's become apparent to me that no more than one of them is scum. If they are both scum, they are giving each other up, each hoping not to be lynched.

My reads have always been more about attitudes and reactions, rather than looking for specific words or phrases in posts as being "scummy". I previously mentioned this is harder than doing it face-to-face because of the lack of nonverbals (body language, expressions, etc.). I wasn't entirely right; you can still detect tone of "voice", even in a board post.

Nacho is giving a vibe of desperation, trying to turn attention from himself to one of his accusers. His claims seemed more general and unsupported than Hero's responses. I need to go back and read some old posts to validate that, but I will say that my vote stays with Nacho for now.

The other question is: who is the other scum? Will have to address that in a later post. Have a situation just come up at home. Cheers for now.

Can you give a few examples of points that nacho makes or lines in his post that make you think 'desperate?'

[tarsonisocelot]

Time to re-review past posts and re-evaluate my vote. One thing I don't want to do is put someone at L-1 or cast the lynching vote unless I'm as sure as I can be (given the circumstances). Will need a good reason to switch and all I have seen so far is conjecture. Guess that all we can do - take our best guess. My vote remains with KoH for the time being. However, if I get a bad feeling about someone, I'll change my vote regardless of the circumstances, even if that means I have to be the hangman.

Seems the ideal position for a player is to have some suspicion cast their way (so the Mafaosi won't knock them off that night but keep them as cover), yet not so much as to get lynched. Sn1pe, panda and I are all walking that tightrope, I have cast some suspicion on KoH, and the rest are all "Mafia meat".

Even if you do get a bad feeling about someone could you not hammer them until close to the deadline? You should be able to use the extra time to re-evaluate or strengthen your case.

Also, that's only the ideal place to be if your goal is to personally survive - it should be to make sure that your side wins.

Quite right, taronisoscelot. This is not "Survivor".

Looking back at a few much earlier posts.
Traveller: I pretty much let this slip originally, but could you explain why you made the "mafia meat" comment and why you seemed to suddenly change your mind after I challenged that part of your comment?

[Herodotus]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

[GreyICE]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and

what will definitely result in a scumflip.

HERO ARE YOU BUSSING A BUDDY FOR TOWNCRED?

[GreyICE]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

I hate this post.

I hate everything about this post.

I want the person writing this post to die.

GIMME SOME INSIGHT NOWISH

ALL MY PARANOIA SENSES ARE FUCKING TINGLING HERE HERO

NOT HAPPY

NOT HAPPY

NOT HAPPY AT ALL

[Herodotus]

I found one of the scum. What more insight do you want?

What are you not happy about? I was disappointed that you and Tarsonis had NOTHING to say about post 296, in which I provided the best case I have ever read for why someone is scum. So I'm feeling impatient. Or is it the confidence you don't like? If so, let me refer you back to post 296, which contains the

best case I have ever read

.

Do you feel that I was trying to use a WIFOM argument that I must be town because I said ON DAY 2, AFTER SN1 FLIPPED TOWN, that if Sn1 and I were buddies I wouldn't have tried to save him?

[Herodotus]

As for what I learned from competing bandwagons - I learned that there was a last second push towards you, after the Panda wagon collapsed. I assumed it was a last-ditch attempt to save a scumbuddy yesterday, but that apparently wasn't the case.

FWIW, if I had been scum with Sn1, I probably wouldn't have tried to save him.

Do you believe Nacho's characterization that this was a

WIFOM arguments saying that he wouldn't save Snipe if he was scum

?

If not, then Nacho8 is either deceiving or not reading.
Panda said something similar earlier, but I could believe that he just didn't understand.

[GreyICE]

As for what I learned from competing bandwagons - I learned that there was a last second push towards you, after the Panda wagon collapsed. I assumed it was a last-ditch attempt to save a scumbuddy yesterday, but that apparently wasn't the case.

FWIW, if I had been scum with Sn1, I probably wouldn't have tried to save him.

Do you believe Nacho's characterization that this was a

WIFOM arguments saying that he wouldn't save Snipe if he was scum

?

If not, then Nacho8 is either deceiving or not reading.
Panda said something similar earlier, but I could believe that he just didn't understand.

The WIFOM I see is specifically in the words "with Sn1pe."

Building town cred as a reliable gage of whose town by weakly opposing a mislynch is a strong strategy as scum. So would you oppose the mislynch of Sn1pe if you were scum and knew it was likely to happen anyway?

It is WIFOM-y.

I'll tell you this much. I like where my vote is just fine. I'm going to do a reread and stop fence sitting at some point, but for now Thil is contributing jack shit, and in a scummy manner. That justification for his "FOS" on you was WEAK.

I'm not happy with you trying to hurry the lynch here.

And I really need Nacho to stick in the thread so I can play Q&A. I have some very different questions if this is going to continue.

NACHO GIMME A TIME YOU'RE GOING TO BE ON SO I CAN PROBE THIS ONE. YOU FLOAT IN AND OUT LIKE A GHOST.

[Herodotus]

I'm not happy with you trying to hurry the lynch here.

To the newbies:
Do not let the phrases "hurry the lynch" or "rush the lynch" enter your vocabulary. Never accuse anyone of either of these cliches.

The WIFOM I see is specifically in the words "with Sn1pe."

Darn, I was hoping you knew what the term WIFOM meant.
Suppose I said "since Traveller, Xopa, and I opposed lynching Sn1, and the mafia want to lynch townies, that proves we're all town." Then, someone would certainly reply "the scum would oppose lynching him because they would want us to think that - so it's scummier to oppose lynching the townie." Then someone might say "but in that case, the scum would support lynching him because that would be viewed as something townies would be more likely to do." And the logic would double back on itself, over and over.
That's what WIFOM is.

A "WIFOM argument" for something refers to making a case [that a given person is town or scum] based on either side of the WIFOM.

A hypothetical statement - you probably all know what that means, but it's one that says "If you assume X to be true, then you can also say Y is true."
Example: If I walk through that door, I will be outside.

A counterfactual hypothetical comment is a hypothetical statement where it is known that statement X is false, but the statement says "If X had been true, then Y would also be true."
Example: If the electricity was out, I would not be typing this post right now.

I made a statement about what would have happened if Sn1 and I had been mafia together. That's a counterfactual statement. Because Sn1 was town, he and I never could have been buddies, and this was publicly known information when I made that statement. I did not make any argument for anything on the basis of it. The purpose of my statement was to provide information regarding the hypothetical scenario that Grey said he had been thinking about during Day 1.

[GreyICE]

I'm not happy with you trying to hurry the lynch here.

To the newbies:
Do not let the phrases "hurry the lynch" or "rush the lynch" enter your vocabulary. Never accuse anyone of either of these cliches.

Yeah maybe I've been playing too many games with Fate, but as scum he LOVES to scream "WHY ARE WE WAITING LETS LYNCH OBVSCUM NOW WHAT IS EVERYONE DOING KEKEKEKEKEKEKE"

So I'll chill here. Because despite what you and nacho seem to think, I don't like the idea that this is a binary day. I want Nacho to answer some questions. I want some fucking content from some slots. I want to see what Thil does. I want to see what Tars does. Got it? If you're scum and Nacho's town, and we walk into LyLo, I have no idea who his buddy is. If Nacho's scum and you're town, well, that still leaves me with at least two candidates and that's if I'm right on Panda.

If you're both town then I'm extraordinarily unhappy right now.

The WIFOM I see is specifically in the words "with Sn1pe."

Darn, I was hoping you knew what the term WIFOM meant.
Suppose I said "since Traveller, Xopa, and I opposed lynching Sn1, and the mafia want to lynch townies, that proves we're all town." Then, someone would certainly reply "the scum would oppose lynching him because they would want us to think that - so it's scummier to oppose lynching the townie." Then someone might say "but in that case, the scum would support lynching him because that would be viewed as something townies would be more likely to do." And the logic would double back on itself, over and over.
That's what WIFOM is.

A "WIFOM argument" for something refers to making a case [that a given person is town or scum] based on either side of the WIFOM.

A hypothetical statement - you probably all know what that means, but it's one that says "If you assume X to be true, then you can also say Y is true."
Example: If I walk through that door, I will be outside.

A counterfactual hypothetical comment is a hypothetical statement where it is known that statement X is false, but the statement says "If X had been true, then Y would also be true."
Example: If the electricity was out, I would not be typing this post right now.

I made a statement about what would have happened if Sn1 and I had been mafia together. That's a counterfactual statement. Because Sn1 was town, he and I never could have been buddies, and this was publicly known information when I made that statement. I did not make any argument for anything on the basis of it. The purpose of my statement was to provide information regarding the hypothetical scenario that Grey said he had been thinking about during Day 1.

Okay, that makes sense. I admit I didn't see it upon reading his post or your quote. So, huh. That's a firm misrep.

Vote: Nacho

Unvote

Consider that my pseudo L-1 if the last completed newbie game I was in didn't have a townie ninja quickhammer for the LyLo loss, Nacho.

[tarsonisocelot]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

OOC: I wish I had a pet ocelot, but I don't think theyr'e allowed in my college.

I'm not willing to end the day yet, but you made a good case on Nacho. I would prefer a Nacho lynch to a thil lynch because we get more information out of that (same can be said for lynching you though information-wise but I get a town feeling from you).

I'm not entirely sure why you made the counterfactual statement, but it seems to be something I would be more likely to post as town than scum.

I can't really add anything. I'm not as confident as you are that Nacho will be scum but confident enough that his lynch will either hit scum or make scum obvious to support it.

[GreyICE]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

OOC: I wish I had a pet ocelot, but I don't think theyr'e allowed in my college.

I'm not willing to end the day yet, but you made a good case on Nacho. I would prefer a Nacho lynch to a thil lynch because we get more information out of that (same can be said for lynching you though information-wise but I get a town feeling from you).

I'm not entirely sure why you made the counterfactual statement, but it seems to be something I would be more likely to post as town than scum.

I can't really add anything. I'm not as confident as you are that Nacho will be scum but confident enough that his lynch will either hit scum or make scum obvious to support it.

AND THIS IS WHY WE WAIT HERO

IT'S NOT GOOD TO END THE DAY IMMEDIATELY.

Vote: Nacho

L-1.

Lets see if scum quickhammers

[Herodotus]

Ok, you're right that it's not good to end the day immediately. I was just feeling impatient. And confident.

Do you still want to arrange a time with Nacho for Q&A?

[tarsonisocelot]

I'm not happy with you trying to hurry the lynch here.

To the newbies:
Do not let the phrases "hurry the lynch" or "rush the lynch" enter your vocabulary. Never accuse anyone of either of these cliches.

Why not? It obviously benefits scum to shorten the day length, so it would be something to do if you thought you could get away with it.
Someone who "rushes the lynch" in a way that restricts the opportunities for discussion/defense is acting in an anti-town way.

[Nachomamma8]

Before I finished catching up, I thought Sn1pe was scum. My reasons for changing my mind I explained and used to defend Sn1. Also note that the reasons I gave for my belief that Sn1 was town came from the pages I hadn't read when I first accused Sn1.
I didn't provide a new case at first because I wasn't confident in anyone being scum. I questioned Thil and Panda, and later Traveller, because I was suspicious of them, but not ready to make a case. I wanted to provide a correct alternative to the Sn1 wagon. Providing another townie as the alternative would be pointless.

You thought Sn1pe was scum, but you weren't confident that he was scum. That was apparent from your little "my read on him may change because of later towntells" comment. So, if you only make cases when you're confident in people being scum, then why did you post the Sn1pe case?
If you don't only post cases when you're confident people are scum, then your little excuse is worthless.

My case on him wasn't weakened at all by the fact that I had previously had him as a townread, as evidenced by the fact that Xopa and Traveller agreed with me.

Agreed with you? Traveller had his own reasons for voting me, and Jora's reasons for voting me were "I don't need your IC, die scum!". Don't really see any references to the strength of your case with those two.

Yes, my first reads were still weak. That's not a scumtell.

No, it's not a scumtell to have weak reads, but if you're trying to stop the lynch of someone who you strongly believe is town, then you don't exactly want to announce that, now do you?

Sn1 was town. I figured that out, and told everyone that so that we would stop lynching him and look for a better lynchee. At some point Sn1 needed to come in and be a part of both of those actions. If he had, he might still be around.

You can't expect to declare a lynch without offering an alternative. Why would you just assume that everyone would trust you immediately and take your votes off Snipe? And why on earth were you expecting Snipe to just suddenly start scumhunting when he hasn't done so for the first 6 pages of the game?

an insinuation that OMGUS is a scumtell (experienced players know it isn't, in fact I said so in my second post)

I don't regard blatant OMGUS to be a scumtell, no. But sneaky, clandestine OMGUS from an experienced player most certainly is. The less townie you can make your attackers appear, the less likely that their opinions will carry any weight. But, this is more of a discussion for MD than anything.

To be fair, I didn't know when I voted Nacho8 that others would agree with me, but I considered him a better lynch than Sn1. And if it didn't go anywhere, at least I had called attention to him so that if I was killed N1, someone could pick it up.

Wait, so you voted someone you didn't think you could get lynched because you thought I was a better lynch than Snipe? Why didn't you try to get someone lynched who you didn't feel was as town as Snipe, but likelier to get lynched?

Nacho wants to eat his cake and have it too. He accused me earlier of not giving him a chance to defend himself; now it's also scummy that I didn't push my attack on him when he wasn't around to defend himself (and there wasn't any new material for me to discuss). He's just trying to score points.

Nacho8, I did not believe that your absence was caused by your alignment. You're an IC and a respectable person, you wouldn't intentionally lurk your way to winning a newbie game. I didn't accuse you of strategically lurking because I don't think you would do that in this game. Also, everyone was low-activity.

Fair enough. I took "if you didn't lurk right after you attacked me" comment to be an accusation of active lurking.

The timing of your vote was scummy because you 1) didn't give me a chance to respond, and 2) didn't give time for the town to think things through.
The fact that you didn't expand upon your case where you could is scummy because if you were trying to get a better lynch than Snipe yesterday, you would have to do some fast convincing.
The two aren't mutually exclusive; nice try trying to twist them into appearing so, though.

As for defending Sn1, I had already presented the reasons to think Sn1 was town. I didn't expect that everyone would be convinced, since he did have some earlier wagon-worthy mistakes. But I answered some questions about it and did what I could

You provided a defense, you answered questions on the defense. It takes more, just like attacking someone you want lynched takes more than providing a case and then answering questions about it.

1. He said he agreed with the lynch and that Sn1 should claim, not that Sn1 was hammerable. If he thought Sn1 was hammerable, he would have hammered. And Sn1 had already effectively claimed vanilla.

The two are the same for me. "I agree with the lynch, so claim." pretty much screams I'm going to hammer to me.

2. Xopa also implied that he hadn't fully read the game. Just like I found Sn1 suspicious before I finished reading.

Yes, but he also said that he ISO'ed Snipe, meaning that there wasn't going to be any "later towntells".

3. I found his first post a bit suspect, mostly for the claim to have only used the "display posts by user:" so I asked about that. His next couple of posts superceded that by delivering good (if briefly stated) content.

What good content did he provide?
Calling you town?

I haven't done a lot because I've found one of the scum already, and I don't feel motivated to spend a lot of time typing. But I've done at least as much as average, and certainly more than Nacho8, on day 2.

I don't see you looking for links. I see you sitting with your vote on me. The only reason that you've even provided a case on me is because I just provided one on you.

I made a comment about what I would have done if Sn1 and I had been scumbuddies. Together. There was never any argument on that basis. The fact that Nacho8 is calling this a point against me when it's clearly a discussion of a counterfactual hypothetical means he's just trying to confuse and appeal to any townies who don't see the subtlety.

Blatantly pushing WIFOM is a newbiescum mistake, so of course you wouldn't do that. But the seed is still planted, and thus it is still WIFOM.

I referred Grey to my ISO instead of restating, and I did try to correct Grey's perception of the case on Nacho8.

"Look at my ISO", especially considering the only case you have provided on me up to this point is the one yesterday and borne of two pages of play, is NOT acceptable.

What pushing could I do? Nacho wasn't active, so there was nothing new about him to discuss, and I didn't really feel like turning my case into a lurker lynch.

Well, you could've pressured others into voting me, and making them comment on your case.

Besides, I didn't know who Nacho's partner was. Whoever they are, they seem to be playing well. I wanted to see how others would react regarding him in the absence of a strong push to lynch, but I still can't tell who it is.

...and now you say you weren't pushing me that strongly because you wanted to tell who my partner was? How would this have helped if you were killed N1?

Nacho thinks the mafia decided to kill a townie who would BOTH have helped them get a mislynch on him AND had one of the mafia as his most town read?

Nacho thinks the mafia decided to kill Jora, an extremely random player whose opinion was likely to change at the drop of a hat, in order to bolster the case against him? Hell yes. Unpredictable townies like Jora are best killed when they have incorrect reads because you can silence them before they change their mind.

Nacho is giving a vibe of desperation

Yes, I'm desperate. Herod is a very good player who I know is scum, but I can't get him lynched. If you were in the same position, wouldn't you feel the same way? Why does desperation make me scum?

[Nachomamma8]

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

Day started how long ago again?
Why are you pushing the lynch so early when you can't even think of people who would be my partner?

I'm not happy with you trying to hurry the lynch here.

To the newbies:
Do not let the phrases "hurry the lynch" or "rush the lynch" enter your vocabulary. Never accuse anyone of either of these cliches.

>.>
<.<
Rushed lynches are rarely good lynches. Even if they hit scum, they provide the town with absolutely nothing.

[GreyICE]

Unvote

The ending to a game I'll link to when the modscene is done has me depressed.

You two CERTAIN this ain't town on town? We were locked into one of these 'day before LyLo dichotomies' and we lynched both parties... oh look, game ended, and not in town victory.

I've got some more questions, but I'm just going to throw that one out there while I'm reading

[pandabear]

wow this reads like a power role and a counter claim battle...
lets hope one of them is scum.
my vote stays for now but I'm waiting for Hero's response

[GreyICE]

Fate: Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote, AlmasterGM, VP Baltar, chesskid3 (Lynch!)
VP Baltar: GreyICE, Fate, Vigilante Ventriloquist, RedCoyote (Lynch!)

Two herp tunnels that ended really poorly.

Nacho:

1) Can you clean up your formatting a bit? It's text walling a bit badly. Makes it hard to understand some shit.

2) Your last commentary on Sn1pe before the lynch was:

Snipe, could you explain why you think claiming town is scummy?
My vote stays for now.

For all that you say Hero had weak reads, that doesn't feel like a particularly strong conviction he would flip scum. What made it worthwhile riding that wagon to the end of day?

3) What have you learned about the players from the questions you've asked? Rereading the ISO, I see some focused on new players to bring them out, but others aren't. In particular:

- You ignored Bristep123 pretty much entirely
- You ignored me except for a few weak reads
- You've ignored Thil except for one or two questions that haven't had much followup (TBF: I understand that one)
- You've pretty much ignored Traveller

Meanwhile you've focused a lot on:
- Panda
- Sn1pe
- Hero

Tars is kind of in the middle.

This is an odd pattern of interactions. What's your reasoning here?

4) Assume for a second hero is town, because I just got kicked in the ass over redoing my reads - what's the most likely team?

5) The misrep on the entire answer to the Sn1pe question - does Hero's answer make sense? Is that still WIFOM? How hard is that worth pushing?

6) What's the scummiest thing that:
- I have done?
- Traveller has done?
- Panda has done?

We all seem to have slid into comfortable town reads to you. Have you questioned or poked that?

7) What's your impression of Panda's vote for Hero?

8) What's your impression of Traveller's vote for you?

9) What the hell do you think of #311? I'll be honest, it looks like a scumbuddy looking to jump on an 'inevitable' lynch for town credit, but leaving open landing on the 'town' side.

[Herodotus]

Why not? It obviously benefits scum to shorten the day length, so it would be something to do if you thought you could get away with it.
Someone who "rushes the lynch" in a way that restricts the opportunities for discussion/defense is acting in an anti-town way.

It's generally used as an attack, and usually against townies. The only time when it really applies is when someone quickhammers without explanation and without waiting for a claim. (Even then, I've seen a few games where townies quickhammered and none where scum did it outside of lylo/mylo ("Lynch or Lose"/"Mislynch and Lose", situations where the scum would win by getting a mislynch). Though that wouldn't stop me from being suspicious of someone who quickhammered a townie.)
I said I was ready to end the day myself, but if there isn't a majority who are ready, the day will continue. While scum generally would benefit from very short days with no thought at all, they wouldn't benefit much because we don't always play better than random. And there is usually little or no benefit to stretching days out just to talk more.

No comment from the thil wagon on the fact that Nacho is scum? I'm feeling impatient. In fact, I'm ready to end the day right now with a Nacho lynch. No need to drag out what should have happened yesterday and what will definitely result in a scumflip.

Tarsonis is the name of a fictional planet.

I thought it was "Tarson is ocelot"; that you have a pet ocelot named Tarson.

Day started how long ago again?
Why are you pushing the lynch so early when you can't even think of people who would be my partner?

1. Don't remember and don't care; arbitrary restrictions like lynch must happen "during the last three days of the deadline" or "after the ninth day" are silly.
2. I have improved my reads. I think it's most likely Thil or Panda (though I don't claim to be certain), and we have enough breathing room to lynch them both. Or maybe an investigation will help.

Before I finished catching up, I thought Sn1pe was scum. My reasons for changing my mind I explained and used to defend Sn1. Also note that the reasons I gave for my belief that Sn1 was town came from the pages I hadn't read when I first accused Sn1.
I didn't provide a new case at first because I wasn't confident in anyone being scum. I questioned Thil and Panda, and later Traveller, because I was suspicious of them, but not ready to make a case. I wanted to provide a correct alternative to the Sn1 wagon. Providing another townie as the alternative would be pointless.

You thought Sn1pe was scum, but you weren't confident that he was scum. That was apparent from your little "my read on him may change because of later towntells" comment. So, if you only make cases when you're confident in people being scum, then why did you post the Sn1pe case?
If you don't only post cases when you're confident people are scum, then your little excuse is worthless.

Sn1 was acting scummy enough during pages 1-3/4 that I would have started a wagon if one didn't already exist. Since he was at L-1, instead I just posted my reasons for finding him scummy to get my most important thoughts out and to let him respond. I did have some confidence that he was scum. I was wrong, and I knew I might be wrong.
When I decided he was town, I said so, and I started talking more about others.
Before I finished reading, the degree of my scumread on Sn1pe was stronger than the degree of any scumread I had after I finished reading. I know that's unusual, but it's the reason I didn't have a case to make.

Yes, my first reads were still weak. That's not a scumtell.

No, it's not a scumtell to have weak reads, but if you're trying to stop the lynch of someone who you strongly believe is town, then you don't exactly want to announce that, now do you?

I wasn't going to fake certainty that my top two scumreads were the scumteam or that there wasn't some small chance I was wrong about Sn1 being town when I wasn't really confident about either of those ideas.

Sn1 was town. I figured that out, and told everyone that so that we would stop lynching him and look for a better lynchee. At some point Sn1 needed to come in and be a part of both of those actions. If he had, he might still be around.

You can't expect to declare a lynch without offering an alternative. Why would you just assume that everyone would trust you immediately and take your votes off Snipe? And why on earth were you expecting Snipe to just suddenly start scumhunting when he hasn't done so for the first 6 pages of the game?

I

was

looking for an alternative. See post 159 for a specific example.
I'm not the Decider, I'm only one townie among

7

5.
Sn1 responded to you when you asked him about reads and you voted him; it's possible he would have responded to me (like an unplanned bad-cop, good-cop).

I don't regard blatant OMGUS to be a scumtell, no. But sneaky, clandestine OMGUS from an experienced player most certainly is. The less townie you can make your attackers appear, the less likely that their opinions will carry any weight.

Ok, the next time I'm mafia I'll make a superweak accusation against every experienced player in my first post then accuse them of sneaky, clandestine OMGUS if they ever vote me. Thanks for the strategy tip.
But seriously, you weren't making any type of case against me, just tossing mud over a null-tell.
("null-tell" means anything that doesn't give any indication of the person's alignment, like a scum-tell or town-tell does.)

To be fair, I didn't know when I voted Nacho8 that others would agree with me, but I considered him a better lynch than Sn1. And if it didn't go anywhere, at least I had called attention to him so that if I was killed N1, someone could pick it up.

Wait, so you voted someone you didn't think you could get lynched because you thought I was a better lynch than Snipe? Why didn't you try to get someone lynched who you didn't feel was as town as Snipe, but likelier to get lynched?

Anyone who is scum is a better lynch than Sn1. You seem to be suggesting that I should have sheeped with the easiest counterwagon I could find. The votecounts suggest that would have been Panda. But unless Panda was scum there would be basically no point to my joining his wagon. If I had no other choice I would

probably

have lynched Panda instead of Sn1. Panda looked scummier than Sn1, though I felt there was some potential for information from the Sn1 wagon; but you looked scummier than Panda.

The timing of your vote was scummy because you 1) didn't give me a chance to respond, and 2) didn't give time for the town to think things through.
The fact that you didn't expand upon your case where you could is scummy because if you were trying to get a better lynch than Snipe yesterday, you would have to do some fast convincing.
The two aren't mutually exclusive; nice try trying to twist them into appearing so, though.

1. You had time to respond, you simply didn't, and that's not my fault.
2. Ever played in a marathon game? There was plenty of time for everyone to say whether they agreed.
3. There wasn't any room for expansion. I posted everything I could think of regarding you, from the towntell at the beginning of the game to an analysis of your most recent post. Barring any more posts from you, there was nothing more to say.

1. He said he agreed with the lynch and that Sn1 should claim, not that Sn1 was hammerable. If he thought Sn1 was hammerable, he would have hammered. And Sn1 had already effectively claimed vanilla.

The two are the same for me. "I agree with the lynch, so claim." pretty much screams I'm going to hammer to me.

If he had hammered without reading, we'd have known he was scum.

2. Xopa also implied that he hadn't fully read the game. Just like I found Sn1 suspicious before I finished reading.

Yes, but he also said that he ISO'ed Snipe, meaning that there wasn't going to be any "later towntells".

He didn't say that until after I asked him, did he? For all I knew, he might have only ISO'ed you.

3. I found his first post a bit suspect, mostly for the claim to have only used the "display posts by user:" so I asked about that. His next couple of posts superceded that by delivering good (if briefly stated) content.

What good content did he provide?
Calling you town?

Agreeing with me.
Seriously, he provided multiple reads, decided that someone I saw as a townie (Sn1) was town, decided someone I knew was town (me) was town, and voted someone I believed to be scum (Nacho8). And he told me whose ISO's he had read and why. All of that was more important than the oddity of using "display posts by user:".

I made a comment about what I would have done if Sn1 and I had been scumbuddies. Together. There was never any argument on that basis. The fact that Nacho8 is calling this a point against me when it's clearly a discussion of a counterfactual hypothetical means he's just trying to confuse and appeal to any townies who don't see the subtlety.

Blatantly pushing WIFOM is a newbiescum mistake, so of course you wouldn't do that. But the seed is still planted, and thus it is still WIFOM.

OK, you got me. Sn1pe and I are buddies. No. This is absurd. Where do you think I was going? What's supposed to grow from the seed? Everyone knows that Sn1 and I couldn't have been buddies; there's nothing scummy about my basically saying "you could have determined that from how I played yesterday."

I referred Grey to my ISO instead of restating, and I did try to correct Grey's perception of the case on Nacho8.

"Look at my ISO", especially considering the only case you have provided on me up to this point is the one yesterday and borne of two pages of play, is NOT acceptable.

Without new posts from you, I didn't have anything new to add. My reasons for voting you I had already written.
And this argument could be turned back on you. You didn't expand on your accusation of Sn1pe. In fact, you never built a case on him.

...and now you say you weren't pushing me that strongly because you wanted to tell who my partner was? How would this have helped if you were killed N1?

Aren't you talking about Day 2? I had no intention of looking for a partner for you on Day 1.

Nacho thinks the mafia decided to kill Jora, an extremely random player whose opinion was likely to change at the drop of a hat, in order to bolster the case against him? Hell yes. Unpredictable townies like Jora are best killed when they have incorrect reads because you can silence them before they change their mind.

Thank you for the WIFOM.
1. I've never played with him before.
2. Silence them before they change their mind?
(a) There's no guarantee of anyone changing their mind.
(b) If I was scum and you were town, he would have been useful to keep around until he did change his mind, while others would have been more immediate threats.

Preview Edit:

Can you clean up your formatting a bit? It's text walling a bit badly. Makes it hard to understand some shit.

You're not going to like my format for this post, either.

[GreyICE]

Hero, mind taking a gander at my questions, and seeing what you could answer there, and what makes sense for Nacho? I'd like a little more general input on other possibilities in this game from you, and a lot of your answers have been very dismissive (well if X is this, Y, but I know X isn't this!).

[Herodotus]

OK. I don't want to answer for him but...

4. If Nacho was town:
Can't really name a team, but I'd be looking at Panda first, then either Traveller or Tarson. Edit: more on Panda below.

6.
a) you: being on the Sn1 wagon
c) panda: same as you, or maybe this:

Either that's a town tell from both of us, or he's riding off of my argument again.

7. His ISO 20 (That's his post # 20 when using "display posts by user: pandabear") is odd, saying he wants to get the show on the road and unvoting. He moved on from Tarsonis without saying why. Regarding his vote for me, he switched from Nacho to me and apparently wants to lynch me for information. He thinks Thil is scummiest but is doing nothing about that. Looks bad.

8. A townie trying to lynch scum.

[pandabear]

c) panda: same as you, or maybe this:

Either that's a town tell from both of us, or he's riding off of my argument again.

7. His ISO 20 (That's his post # 20 when using "display posts by user: pandabear") is odd, saying he wants to get the show on the road and unvoting. He moved on from Tarsonis without saying why. Regarding his vote for me, he switched from Nacho to me and apparently wants to lynch me for information. He thinks Thil is scummiest but is doing nothing about that. Looks bad.

LOL I could care less what "looks bad," I'm trying to get the scums as much as you guys are. I said I found thil scummy so let's try and see if we can find connections, but after that phase I now have the impression that one of you two must be scum. So now my plan is to see who one of your partner may be, but that comes after deciding who we think is more scummy between you are nacho.

I said I was waiting for your response anyways so as of now I don't have a 100% lynch vote yet...
so

unvote

[Traveller]

Responses to direct questions:

Can you give a few examples of points that nacho makes or lines in his post that make you think 'desperate?'

Had to reread yesterday's interaction between Nacho and Hero. And in doing so, I get to eat a bit of crow. Nacho is certainly more assertive than Hero in their counter-accusations, but he doesn't lose his cool. Questioning by both players is direct and forward, it's just that Nacho does not seem as "calm, cool and collected" as Hero. But Nacho does not at any time start in with really desperate behavior like name-calling. I jumped the gun on my previous comment. Also, you Grey, made the comment about Nacho's questioning being "good scumhunting". I need to quit equating assertiveness with guilt.

Still watching both Nacho and Hero. No way they are both scum, but could they both be town?

Traveller: I pretty much let this slip originally, but could you explain why you made the "mafia meat" comment and why you seemed to suddenly change your mind after I challenged that part of your comment?

Sure. It was also another case of my joking around (the "Mafia meat" comment). I was too focused at the time on my own personal survival, rather than the town win. And I felt a bit sheepish about it. I've gotten the vibe that people are serious about this game, so I'll save my lame jokes for my poor, patient wife.

One other response I never gave:

Traveller, don't forget post 205 was part of the selection I pointed out.

Had to look back on this one. At the time, Hero, it seemed you were trying to convince me of your innocence of quick-lynching (oops, sorry about the word) Sn1pe. Wasn't necessary, based on what I'm learning about the game. But, did you protest your innocence too much? I let you off the hook with my initial response, but you pressed the issue a bit too much. Keeps me suspicious of you.