Open 279 - Rusty Guillotine Mafia - Game Over!

[hitogoroshi]

2) The town lost its tracker N1, and both confirmable townies the next two days. What. The. Fuck.

I winced when I saw Ythill draw Tracker - he always walks around with a "nk me!" sign. Scum actually thought he was a very UNlikely tracker, but shot him N1 anyway.

3) if the town had had ANY POWER ROLE DO ANYTHING it was probably balanced. As it was, it was basically 11:3 with 2 known 'earls' who had to be shot.

Yeah, it's a shame how the PR thing shook out.

4) Tracker was just a cop with the scum having that many power roles. Lemme rephrase the scum roles a bit 'You may do X. If you do not, you investigate as town.' I strongly suggest a different investigative role, since that just really annoys.

That's by design - so the scum have to think whether or not they use all their PRs.

[VP Baltar]

*insert rant about tunneling without thought being terrible play*

In terms of the setup:

1) I didn't really care for it from the start and I only really played because you're my boy hito. Delayed flips making it nigh impossible to scumhunt effectively. I thought this would go away as the game progressed, but it really didn't. I also think RB + RC against the shitty town PRs is pretty imbalanced in scum's favor. You're essentially giving the scum three shots every night to shut down town power. You'd probably be better off with something closer to a mountainous setup, imo.

2) I think the delay is fine under Open guidelines. We all knew what we were getting into.

3) No, I doubt I would play this setup again. Much like Friends and Enemies, I just don't like the role interactions and that made it rather unfun for me on a whole.

In terms of modding:

I thought your modding was fine and I appreciate your regular votecounts. I thought you were a touch harsh on deadline extensions because of the replacements. When Mae came into the game, I think it would have been a fair thing as moderator at that point to give a deadline extension. I think you should definitely take this under advisement for your newbie game, because you will need to be gentler with them.

Other things:

Good job to the scum team, you guys played a decent game. Capitalizing on town frustration and apathy was a smart play here. It seemed like anytime the town would get any momentum toward one of you, town in-fighting would quickly dismantle it.

In terms of those that were largely responsible for the in-fighting, pull your head out of your ass next time. That's all I'll say. When you're town, I don't care how sure you think you are, it's important to consider more than just one possible scenario. I'm sure I was rude at times, but it is extremely frustrating when people are making terrible cases and are completely unwilling to make any sort of reconsideration regarding it. I don't really hold a grudge against anyone because of this game, but it also wasn't the most pleasant playing experience.

Need to read the QTs at some point.

[Duplicity]

I actually kept fairly up to date with this game, a very interesting playerlist and I'm a big fan of the mechanic.

I have to say the scum played amazing, very nicely done to the both of you. I didn't manage to have a single strong scum-read alive however I had VP, GreyICE and Fate as for-sure town.

[GreyICE]

Okay, yeah, but reread your case on LL at some point and redo the thoughts on 'bad cases townies stick to without reevaluating.' I think my fake case on AGM was better, and he was FUCKING OBVTOWN JUST LIKE LL. It was the most made up piece of tossed together scum shit.

When you sit there stonewalling me, calling me awful, scumplaining and telling me how much I'll chuckle it up in the post game without doing exactly that, yeah I get quite the fucking scumread.

There was NOTHING in that case that was the least bit convincing, VPB. I could have made virtually that exact case on any player in the entire game.

Pedit: Blah it's so much easier to see when you're not in the trenches.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not really going to argue with you because I don't care enough to. All I'm saying is that you tunneled on me from the moment you replaced and weren't listening to a word I said otherwise. I honestly feel like you came at me with an attitude from the start because you wanted to be right. That is why I was calling you awful, because frankly I do find that to be awful play. I did try to offer an olive branch and open the channels of discussion at one point by explaining why I felt my LL case was solid. Even though it has been shown I was wrong now, I still think it was worth discussion and I was open to discussion about it. The same thing was said to me by other players when I said VV was scum. It just pisses me off when people are so dismissive about possibilities other than what they feel.

[VP Baltar]

Dead QT iz da borings. Even the dead townies were as lost and apathetic as the living ones

[GreyICE]

I'm not really going to argue with you because I don't care enough to. All I'm saying is that you tunneled on me from the moment you replaced and weren't listening to a word I said otherwise. I honestly feel like you came at me with an attitude from the start because you wanted to be right. That is why I was calling you awful, because frankly I do find that to be awful play. I did try to offer an olive branch and open the channels of discussion at one point by explaining why I felt my LL case was solid. Even though it has been shown I was wrong now, I still think it was worth discussion and I was open to discussion about it. The same thing was said to me by other players when I said VV was scum. It just pisses me off when people are so dismissive about possibilities other than what they feel.

Yeah, sorry, but your responses to me screamed SCUM.

'you haven't read the game!'
'well you've read all 80 pages and your reads didn't change enough from reading 20 pages (actually 80 solidified LL town into rock, Fate town into rock, AGM town into rock, and... very little else tbh, the great unwashed were really meh).' Then you whine about how you'll be shown to be right in the post game (which isn't an argument).

I do derail my own wagons and leave tunnels, but your response was pig awful. You do realize that you never once asked or had a back and forth with me on why LL was town, you just threw me into the scum pile for defending him, then threw Fate in there as well.

[VP Baltar]

OK, well it is a good thing you couldn't be wrong. That would really fuck things up. Done with this line of discussion and I wish you the best.

[GreyICE]

Dude I can be wrong. Am all the time. You did NOTHING to show me I was wrong and listened to NOTHING I said about LuckayLuck.

Fine. Cool. You and Fate can blame me. But don't pretend that you didn't spit in my face when I replaced in, and did anything but do that for the entire rest of the day.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

GreyICE just an FYI from an impartial observer of this game that it looks like you're doing your damndest to move from promising new player to mediocre, intolerable bore #7 because you've picked the wrong role models for your game.

[Duplicity]

I think you're both overreacting to a degree, although your reads were wrong no one brought up that reasonable a case against either of the mafia. With no information or case like that brought up you're highly likely to stick to your intial gut read or instict which is what both of you did.

[VP Baltar]

I think you're both overreacting to a degree, although your reads were wrong no one brought up that reasonable a case against either of the mafia. With no information or case like that brought up you're highly likely to stick to your intial gut read or instict which is what both of you did.

No, not really. Cases were made against both VV and RC at various points. But regardless of that, making a case on a scum player isn't going to auto-win a game. Town's have to work as a team and discuss ideas until the right one is achieved. I did not stick with my gut reads at all and I feel I was very open to discussion. The problem was that no one was willing to discuss a damn thing. Half the town stopped contributing to the game whatsoever and the other half was spamming the thread with "nah uhhhhhhh" to anything I would post. It's not really so much about being immediately right as it is about communicating properly. Apathy and pointless discussions give the scum pretty much free reign of the game state.

[Duplicity]

I can agree there was a lack of discussion about the minor cases made against them, and although you were open to hearing them you never took the initative to step back and say "Why are we letting RC glide through consisdering the fact he should have died nights ago", therefore the blame of the loss is just as much on you as anyone else.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE just an FYI from an impartial observer of this game that it looks like you're doing your damndest to move from promising new player to mediocre, intolerable bore #7 because you've picked the wrong role models for your game.

Fair enough.

[VP Baltar]

I can agree there was a lack of discussion about the minor cases made against them, and although you were open to hearing them you never took the initative to step back and say "Why are we letting RC glide through consisdering the fact he should have died nights ago", therefore the blame of the loss is just as much on you as anyone else.

The first thing I said today was 'why isn't RC dead?' Then I was quick lynched.

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

In answer to Hito's questions
1) It was probably too scum-sided as is. The problem isn't the scum PRs imo; it's the town PRs. Scum role cop means scum can kill someone useful one night later (kind of like what the guillotine mechanic does to town) and roleblocker really doesn't do much, considering scum either have to get lucky or have good PR reads and can just kill any PRs they find anyway because of no protective role. Impatient vigilante probably should have saved his shot for later (having information at the start of day 1 turned out not to be useful because everyone seemed to already have decided Simenon was town anyway), but that was a bit difficult to predict until it was too late. I disagree with turning the impatient vig into a normal vig, as I feel it gives him no incentive to use his ability on someone on-guillotine, which ruins the point of the mechanic. Replacing the tracker with a watcher might make things a bit easier on town. I don't really like watchers in closed setups (it takes little skill to use and punishes a scum team for making good kills), but I think it might give town the power boost it needs here, especially since it's a pseudo-protective role while it's alive.
2) Nah, as long as players know about it ahead of time.
3) I don't really care much about what the setup is, as long as it's relatively balanced and mechanics don't completely detract from normal game play. Would probably play again, but take this with a grain of salt. I never played this from the town side and I'm not sure how enjoyable it would be.


I think this game was a good example of why you can't have a town full of leaders. From the start, the town had 4 or 5 players trying to pull the town in their own directions and all of them were used to just being followed. When those players couldn't coordinate their reads, town was already in pretty bad shape. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 1 wanted them day 2. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 2 wanted them day 3 etc. The result was that scum were able to take advantage of the wrong reads of several players and honestly just coast to victory. I really should have been lynched day 4 or 5 or whatever day it was for that slip-up about SD hammering. When I originally made the first post of that two post sequence, it didn't seem quite so bad. I think I literally facepalmed though while typing up the second when I realized how bad it would sound. Replacements were a big help though. I don't think I've ever seen replacements so thoroughly divide a town. Fate and Baltar were really the only 2 town leaders left that had any sort of synergy going and once they turned on each other, town was a complete mess.

Kind of funny how everyone the last couple of days thought my reads and opinions were completely absurd, yet no one decided it was because I was scum. I asked Hito earlier in the game if I could replace in under my main (given that it was announced that I was doing so) and he told me not to for iso purposes. I really wonder if I could have gotten away with some of my reads if I was posting under my main.

Thanks Hito for modding and thanks to the masochists that replaced in towards the end.

Also, wow, a lot of people were following this game. I didn't even realize the players were, let alone spectators.

[GreyICE]

Out of curiosity, who is your main?

[Vigilante Ventriloquist]

This guy

[GreyICE]

[Faraday]

I think you're both overreacting to a degree, although your reads were wrong no one brought up that reasonable a case against either of the mafia. With no information or case like that brought up you're highly likely to stick to your intial gut read or instict which is what both of you did.

Ehhhh Vp's response screamed town. And this is from someone who while reading the game thought he had a decent chance of being scum.

[VP Baltar]

I think this game was a good example of why you can't have a town full of leaders. From the start, the town had 4 or 5 players trying to pull the town in their own directions and all of them were used to just being followed. When those players couldn't coordinate their reads, town was already in pretty bad shape. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 1 wanted them day 2. Those that didn't get their preferred lynches day 2 wanted them day 3 etc

This is very true.

[Simenon]

gag me with a spoon, this game

[Shadow Dancer]

The "town full of leaders" is a point. However, I don't see the problem in the desired leadership per se. It seems more to me that there were just too many players who could not see beyond certain playstyles, namely of Fate and to a lesser degree Baltar, which ended up in a pretty high level of chronic suspicion on them.
It also proves how powerful a scum tactic it is to try and split the town.

I really like VV's suggestion to turn the tracker into a watcher. That would make for much more dynamic role interactions.
In the setup as it is both, Ythil's early analysis as well as our scum reactoion to not use any PRs and just wait for the town PRs to claim early were basically correct. But maybe some one with some spare time wants to do some math on the issue...

I must really thank Crypto. His Conc vote was what turned my on-guillotine play around from balancing on a razor blade to a striking success
I think this is the right spot to notify an important fact:
- Do not try to outguess scum, they have more information than you. Especially in a game with delayed flips.
This was how the VV case entrirely disintegrated in a giant pile of assumed "connections" between players.
And this is how Red could become "confirmed town" in every one's eyes.

I think I would have been hell annoyed as towny in this game. But I wouldn't blame that on the setup but on people not really dealing with the setup... Delayed flips certainly require some adaption. Especially all the back and force with and about the person on guillotine was not advantagios for town. Best way would likely be to just ignore that person for the most part and wait with analyzing until after the flip.

Hito's modding was good, no objections. Being strict on DLs was definitely the right thing, considering that lynches did only depend on a relative majority.

Tracker dying N1 was just pure luck... I guess one shouldn't entrust Ythill with a PR

[Fate]

Holy fuck.

Sorry VP, Grey totally shit on my reads.


I had RC pegged D1. I had VV pegged for that "ZOMG VP ALMOST LET SD QUICKHAMMER" shit D3


Fucking.

Hell.


You too Chess, you fuckiung HURR DURR too.

[Fate]

I must really thank Crypto. His Conc vote was what turned my on-guillotine play

Yeah. We had RC RUN THE FUCK UP. ANd Crypto goes "HEHTEHHEHTEHHEHE NO DICE ILL GO SOMEWHERE ELSE"


ANd then after SD flipped it was full FATE SCUMZZ tunnel mode