Mini 1162- Inglourious Basterds Mafia (Game over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

I am in favor of no lynching today, or elsa lynching. Whichever.

[Elsa von Spielburg]

And yet, Hazard is still scum. Votey vote vote.

I'm not sold on drew just yet, and will have to reread him. The only two I'm really confident about as town are ABR (despite his horrible reads) and split.

[DemonHybrid]

Those voting him for his "I'm surprised there isn't a wagon on me and I dunno what I was talking about" comments are awful.

[Hazard with a Glove]

VLA

Busy as heck and don't think I'll have much time at a computer at all. I think I'll be back by Wednesday at the latest.

[DemonHybrid]

You know what, screw it. I don't think Hazard is scum and I think the people hopping onto him are taking the opportunistic route. What kind of scum motivation is saying that "I'm surprised there isn't a wagon on me"?

Unvote, Vote: Elsa von Spielburg

[splitfarvle]

Sigh. Misrepresentations everywhere.

My read on Albert:

Albert - Strange play. Not sure what to make of it. Certainly not town.

Perhaps you read it wrong, but I thought it was pretty clear I was referring to his play not being town, not his alignment (necessarily).

It appears I was indeed mistaken. You're actually fencesitting with soft reads on everyone including Albert.

My reads on Drew and Elsa:

Drew - Though only had a few posts, I think of Drew as town. He voted Albert for his strange play and ignored the large bandwagons in Toon and NA1 who have both flipped town.

Elsa - Leaning scum. Her reasoning seems way off on things and she held her vote off any bandwagons at the end of the day.

This one does seem like a contradiction indeed. But it's not. I acknowledged Drew as town for voting Albert due to his strange play and avoiding the bandwagons on flipped town Toon and NA1. In Elsa's case, she acknowledged scumminess of NA1, yet held her vote off the wagon. This is very different because it's something mafia would do to be able to say "Well look, I wasn't on the town bandwagon". There is a difference there.

A good point about Elsa. I disagree about drew though. If drew is town: voting for a claimed jester is very bad play. My understanding of a jester role is that they must be lynched on D1 to win the game, meaning town loses. If drew is scum: He knows how many mafia there are, and due to the generally accepted set up of 13 players with three scum he would have a better idea of whether ABR was lying than a town player would. It would still be bad for the mafia to hand the victory to the jester, so drew is either a bad town player, a bad scum player, or a scum player who knows that there isn't a third party since he has two partners.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote no-lynch

[splitfarvle]

Split - I think I've pretty reasonably countered your points against me but you haven't responded to my responses. In order to maintain reasonable suspicion on me it isn't good enough to just continue putting me on lists. I also think it's odd of you to dismiss cmars analysis, which looks pretty reasonable to me.

I'm torn on the idea of a mislynch because Of the risk of scum nailing a town pr tonight. but the percentages are there.

For now I'm just waiting for cmar to finish day two an three analysis and then hopefully conversation will pick up.

To me, CMaR is posting a lot but it has little to do with what's going on now. I see it as him potentially trying to appear like he's contributing without actually taking firm stances.

You're firmly on my scum list, and I don't care if you don't think I have reason enough to put you there.

You're right that I didn't respond, I've been busy and I missed it so I'll rectify that now:

First, I wouldn't call it a trap, it was just a chance to see what would happen if tclaw were at L-2, and I think I learned something from it:

If Hazard was scum looking for a quicklynch his team sucks. I sat there waiting, even after Hazard's vote, and nothing happened. I unvoted later after quicklynch risk was over. One vote doesn't make a shot at a quicklynch - it's got to be sort of a concentrated effort. This tells me Hazard doesn't have a team, but tclaw might. See?

Your analysis fails because your "tactic" failed. Immediately after your vote I, Benmage, and DH point out that it was scummy. Did you expect more scum votes to pile up after that? One vote did indeed follow from someone who is playing scummy as hell, but somehow it doesn't count? How about this for a "concentrated effort": you and Hazard with your partner scared off from voting the wagon? You also say Hazard doesn't have a team (implicitly stating he's town), but you voted for him anyway?

Top scumreads: tclaw, Elsa, Benmage, spit. Tclaw for reasons mentioned, Elsa, Benmage and spit by process of elimination (because my townreads are ABR, DH, myself, Hazard)

A Hazard townread now? Between your "tactic" and the post I'm quoting above:

Hazard was a town read until his last post. Here's your scum reasoning: "If I say enough self-destructive, ridiculous things, people will be afraid to lynch me (especially in probably MyLo) because those aren't things scum would say." Unless he's a PR that I'm not aware of (I was thinking a modified Bomb or something), then I want to lynch him. I think it's time for someone to put him at L-1.

UNVOTE: Hazard

I'll unvote to let you catch up (should have thought of that anyway, my fault), but I'm still comfortable with my vote on Hazard, even in probable MYLO. So after you have a chance to read, let's hear your impressions, but my intent is to revote Hazard at that point unless I'm really convinced otherwise.

I know, DH and spit, that you're tunneling on me, but think about my little case for a second.

Your case is crap, and you are scum.
UNVOTE: Hazard with a Glove
VOTE: drewoftherushes

[CryMeARiver]

Drew, Post 157: Explain the sense behind this.

DH, Posts 164, 165: Why would a jester claim jester? There is absolutely no motivation behind it. On the contrary, there IS motivation for claiming jester as both town and scum. Scum's is simple, to not be lynched. This is a smart play as a goon or something as 2 things will happen: 1) You won't get lynched and you'll live to the end of the game or 2) You won't get lynched right away and by the time you get lynched your sacrifice is worth it. Town's motivation is a bit more complicated. There are 2 apparent motivations to me: 1) Claiming Jester as a PR to avoid lynch and night kill or 2) Claiming Jester so that if you reach a MYLO situation with mafia, mafia will claim and vote you and try to get you to selfvote and you will have successfully outted the mafia. In either case, the scum and town motivation both clearly exist while the jester motivation is just not there. Care to explain DH?

You didn't have to use an FoS at all. In fact, I RARELY see FoSes used, and having it used twice in a row in a wagon that flared up and died really quickly reads as REALLY weird to me. Was FoSes the flavor of the day that day, or what?

Felt the need to quote this so everyone can see this: WHAT THE FUCK YOU SMOKIN WILLIS? Fos's are VERY common. To find someone scummy because they Fos'd someone while keeping their vote on someone else is ridiculous because I guarantee half the site does this. And don't try to pull that I'm only saying this because I'm defending my slot. I actually usually make it a point not to try and defend the actions of my slot as I don't know the motivation behind what they do for the most part (unless it's role related).

This is something I noticed and something you can't talk your way out of. And you aren't even assessing ABR's claim right. You completely ignore motivations and see things at face value, so either you're not really thinking things through or you're a smooth talking mafioso.

Felt the need to quote this as well. See above as your motivation argument makes no sense to me without an explanation.

Split, Post 169: 1) Are you genuinely taking ABR's jester claim seriously? Why the fuck would a jester claim jester? 2) You are completely forgetting about D1 and voting Papmus for making a suggestion to the town of a massclaim? Explain this.

Drew, Post 170: What purpose does this post serve in the least? Why are you speculating about flavor rather than focusing on the game?

ABR, Post 172: If you're town PR not trying to get roleblocked, explain this that you post at the beginning of D2.

Benmage, Post 173: If he had just defended himself against DH's points in this post, I would change my town opinion on him. However, he not only defended himself, but he made accusations as well. Defending + No Scumhunting = Scummy. Defending + Scumhunting = Protown.

Elsa, Post 174: What?!?!?! First of all, you start by doing something useful and responding to DH's scumspects and their individual rebuttals. Oh. Just kidding. You actually responded to the one useless thing on the page. Drew's flavor post. This isn't starting off well. Next thing is a vote of ABR. This isn't absolutely TERRIBLE. But it's not allstart scumhunting. You're voting ABR based on his weird play which is understandable, however it's the same point multiple other people have brought up. Also, he just claimed PR so this is also crap.

Then, you have this line:

Also, you've got the obligatory "Oh noes, that was a bad night," reaction that I've seen from scum far too often.

What the fuck does this even mean? 1) Scum had a great night on Night 1 if you didn't notice. 3 town died. So where could he have even gotten a "Oh noes, that was a bad night" reaction even if he was scum? And 2) Where the hell do you get any reaction like that from his two prior posts of the day?

Sigh, just this page has tired me out at this point. Whew.

[CryMeARiver]

It appears I was indeed mistaken. You're actually fencesitting with soft reads on everyone including Albert.

To me, CMaR is posting a lot but it has little to do with what's going on now. I see it as him potentially trying to appear like he's contributing without actually taking firm stances.

1) I had and still have no firm stances as I'm responding slowly to every point as if it was happening now to put in my input. Hence why my stances are not up to date.
2) My Day 1 stances were actually rather firm for being based on only 1/3 of the game content. I had people labelled as scum, town, and null.
3) I am definitely contributing. I've contributed the most since I've entered this game as the activity has lulled. And when I say contribute, I don't just mean that I am posting things. I mean I'm posting actual content. If you care to look at it.

I disagree about drew though. If drew is town: voting for a claimed jester is very bad play. My understanding of a jester role is that they must be lynched on D1 to win the game, meaning town loses. If drew is scum: He knows how many mafia there are, and due to the generally accepted set up of 13 players with three scum he would have a better idea of whether ABR was lying than a town player would. It would still be bad for the mafia to hand the victory to the jester, so drew is either a bad town player, a bad scum player, or a scum player who knows that there isn't a third party since he has two partners.

I suppose from your point of view this is a fair point. However, I'd like an explanation.
1) I've never seen a game where Jester has to be lynched D1. It is generally just the players job to get lynched before night killed in the course of the game in my experience. Explain?
2) Voting for a claimed jester is not bad at all in this case. From my point of view, and possibly the same thought process of Drew (I haven't read any of his thought process behind that vote other than ABR's strange play) it was clear ABR wasn't a jester. A jester (especially one that you thought had to be lynched D1) literally has absolutely NO motivation claiming D1. Therefore he wasn't a jester, yet he was pretending to be, which can be scummy.
3) You may have just slipped there. I'll have to look into it.

[CryMeARiver]

Oh, and real quickly. Two things to everyone.

1) I'm not posting this stuff for my health. I expect you to read it. You don't necessarily have to respond to it, but how the hell are you going to get a grasp of my play/alignment if you don't read all the stuff I'm posting.
2) If I addressed it to you (and I'm not agreeing with you or calling you protown), I expect you to, of course read it as per Rule 1 ^, but also respond to it. I likely called you out on something or asked you something so do respond to it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

CMAR:

So I'll show some goodwill to not be autovoted at first....then I'll say I'm not a jester if I'm voted....then I'll claim my real role if I'm threatened with lynch. You never know how the chips will fall.

Elsa Von Spielburg, DemonHybrid, one of you should be lynched tomorrow.

[CryMeARiver]

CMAR:

So I'll show some goodwill to not be autovoted at first....then I'll say I'm not a jester if I'm voted....then I'll claim my real role if I'm threatened with lynch. You never know how the chips will fall.

Elsa Von Spielburg, DemonHybrid, one of you should be lynched tomorrow.

Makes sense. For the record, you haven't claimed yet, correct?

Also, at this point, I'd agree with either of those lynches as well.

[splitfarvle]

Split, Post 169: 1) Are you genuinely taking ABR's jester claim seriously? Why the fuck would a jester claim jester? 2) You are completely forgetting about D1 and voting Papmus for making a suggestion to the town of a massclaim? Explain this.

I had no reason not to take his claim seriously. I couldn't come up with a good reason why either scum or town would claim jester. The massclaim suspicion is explained in the post you linked, and also #196.

1) I had and still have no firm stances as I'm responding slowly to every point as if it was happening now to put in my input. Hence why my stances are not up to date.

Hence why I'm not taking you as seriously as I would if you were up to date.

2) My Day 1 stances were actually rather firm for being based on only 1/3 of the game content. I had people labelled as scum, town, and null.

You qualify your reads as being firm based on the fact that they're strong for a D1 read. It's D3 now, and as you note in your point #1 you have no firm stances that relate to what's happened since D1.

3) I am definitely contributing. I've contributed the most since I've entered this game as the activity has lulled. And when I say contribute, I don't just mean that I am posting things. I mean I'm posting actual content. If you care to look at it.

I don't disagree that you are posting

some

useful content. I do disagree that watching you go through the game day by day should be seen as "contributing the most." Find scum and vote, then I'll think of you as contributing.

I suppose from your point of view this is a fair point. However, I'd like an explanation.
1) I've never seen a game where Jester has to be lynched D1. It is generally just the players job to get lynched before night killed in the course of the game in my experience. Explain?
2) Voting for a claimed jester is not bad at all in this case. From my point of view, and possibly the same thought process of Drew (I haven't read any of his thought process behind that vote other than ABR's strange play) it was clear ABR wasn't a jester. A jester (especially one that you thought had to be lynched D1) literally has absolutely NO motivation claiming D1. Therefore he wasn't a jester, yet he was pretending to be, which can be scummy.
3) You may have just slipped there. I'll have to look into it.

1.) It was just my understanding of the jester role. I've completed three games total, one of them here, and in the first game I played the jester was said to be required to be lynched on D1. I see on the wiki here that it's not necessarily the case.
2.) It wasn't clear to me that he was lying. Further, his insistence that he either be NK'ed or lynched after D1 played into my preconceptions about the jester role.
3.) By all means look into it. Or maybe actually openly discuss it instead of spreading vague suspicions against me that I can't defend against.

CMAR:

So I'll show some goodwill to not be autovoted at first....then I'll say I'm not a jester if I'm voted....then I'll claim my real role if I'm threatened with lynch. You never know how the chips will fall.

Elsa Von Spielburg, DemonHybrid, one of you should be lynched tomorrow.

Makes sense. For the record, you haven't claimed yet, correct?

Also, at this point, I'd agree with either of those lynches as well.

He has claimed. I'm done with you until you catch up.

[Benmage]

Should be able to post later today.

[CryMeARiver]

Oh yeah, I forgot. You're fucking terrible at judging motivation regardless and can't comprehend why scum wouldn't do something like that, even if he ISN'T the jester that he claimed to be.

Are you a fucking moron?

That is so dumb. Can you name a time when mafia buddied with a third party without coming out completely fucked? No? Can you understand why there's no motivation behind that then, and therefore clears me on that point as well?

You don't understand motivation clearly.

do you really think that me, as scum in your eyes, would willingly put my ass on the line by helping out the third party and not going with the wagon that's currently being built?

1) WIFOM defense
2) Yes, scum wants 3rd party to stay alive.

So, me creating the "nintendo caved under vote pressure off the get-go" case is worse than your "Policy lynch. Vote: NA." case?

Yes. Yes it is. You acted like you genuinely thought nintendo was scum for ridiculous reasons. Benmage on the other hand did not think his actions were particularly scummy, but went with the lynch because he understood how his actions could get in the way of the game and lead to a potential mislynch in a MYLO or LYLO situation.

This whole post is you asking questions to try and defend yourself. It just has a scummy undertone to it. You asked 5 rhetorical questions at the end of this post.


ABR's claim = town. Only other thing he could be is a SK claiming vig (very common for SK's to do) but I believe him.

Elsa, Posts 189, 190: You have no scumreads? Seriously?

DH, Post 193: At this point, you have literally completely ignored Elsa and her lack of scumhunting. Why?

Tclaw, Post 200: I realize this is my slot. But this was my thought process exactly and the only reason I would have found Papmus scummy. He would have been up there with Elsa for me (DH was up there in scumminess at this point, but DH is actually contributing and I wouldn't have wanted his lynch on D2).

In post 45 tclaw fingers TF with suspicion because of TF’s quick flip on his read of NA1. One post after, pappums throws a vote on TF and one post after that NA1 throws his vote on TF. Makes sense for NA1 to join in an opposing wagon. Pappums seems to disagree, though, and throws a big “HoS” at NA1 for voting for TF, calling it opportunistic. If there’s one thing that frustrates me as town, it’s being called opportunistic for logical play. Were other people opportunistic for piling on NA1’s wagon early on? I don’t like the incongruity there.

This does not make sense. NA1's vote is absolutely opportunistic. He has a wagon on him. Someone else is gaining a wagon on them. So he joins the other wagon to avoid lynch. There is no incongruity. No, other people were not opportunistic for piling on NA1's wagon early on. They weren't being wagoned like he was.

At least you attempted to scumhunt here though. While you did use the same reasoning as other people to join an already burgeoning wagon, it counts for something I suppose.

[CryMeARiver]

As for this:

3) You may have just slipped there. I'll have to look into it.

I did not mean scumslip, I just meant slipped up in logic.

You say you thought he was a jester that had to get lynched D1. Yet he claimed D1. And you believed he was a jester. From your thought process, why would you believe he was a jester if he told everyone he was a jester. You thought he was throwing the game?

As for your post 388, most of it has to do with me not being caught up so I'll just ignore it and get caught up.
As for this:

3.) By all means look into it. Or maybe actually openly discuss it instead of spreading vague suspicions against me that I can't defend against.

I apologize. I wasn't trying to spread suspicion on you through that. As I pointed out, I did not mean scumslip. But I didn't make that clear so I apologize.

[CryMeARiver]

@Mod: May you please fix that quote tag ^ Thank you

Done.

[Elsa von Spielburg]

You know what, screw it. I don't think Hazard is scum and I think the people hopping onto him are taking the opportunistic route. What kind of scum motivation is saying that "I'm surprised there isn't a wagon on me"?

Unvote, Vote: Elsa von Spielburg

Playstyles. I've seen scum often use the "too honest" approach; often it leads to people defending them in the way you are for him (though I haven't ruled out you two just being scumbuddies covering for one another). And while I think town can use bluntly honest words, his tone and post style/amount just don't sit right to me. He oooooozes scuminess.

[CryMeARiver]

You know what, screw it. I don't think Hazard is scum and I think the people hopping onto him are taking the opportunistic route. What kind of scum motivation is saying that "I'm surprised there isn't a wagon on me"?

Unvote, Vote: Elsa von Spielburg

@Split: I'm personally curious as to what your response is to this.

Also, without even having read the beginning of D3, I guarantee that No Lynch is the best option for today. Having a vig claim to have shot likely means 3 mafia which means we're in a MYLO situation. Our odds of lynching scum are better tomorrow with another flip. We'll probably need to massclaim tomorrow as well.

Vote: No Lynch

[CryMeARiver]

Confirmed town wagons:

Unofficial Vote Count I put together

Toon Fighter

(6)- Elsa Von Spielburg,

Papmus

,

NA1

, DemonHybrid,

Meran

, ABR

Vote Count 1-5

nintendoaddict1

(7)- tclawren, Benmage, splitfarvle, DemonHybrid, Albert B Rampage,

Meransiel

,

pappums rat

,

Vote Count 2-5

pappums rat

(5)- splitfarvle, Albert B. Rampage, tclawren, Elsa Von Spielburg, DemonHybrid,

[CryMeARiver]

Confirmed town wagons:

Unofficial Vote Count I put together

Toon Fighter

(6)-

Elsa Von Spielburg

,

Papmus

,

NA1

,

DemonHybrid

,

Meran

,

ABR

Vote Count 1-5

nintendoaddict1

(7)-

tclawren

,

Benmage

,

splitfarvle

,

DemonHybrid

,

Albert B Rampage

,

Meransiel

,

pappums rat

,

Vote Count 2-5

pappums rat

(5)-

splitfarvle

,

Albert B. Rampage

,

tclawren

,

Elsa Von Spielburg

,

DemonHybrid

,

People in Red were are all 3 wagons of confirmed town
People in Blue were on 2 of the wagons of confirmed town
People in Purple were on 1 of the wagons of confirmed town
People in Green are confirmed town

[DemonHybrid]

CMAR, just fucking vote me and get it over with then. I'm not reading your bullshit and it's obvious that you're suspicious of me.

You know what, screw it. I don't think Hazard is scum and I think the people hopping onto him are taking the opportunistic route. What kind of scum motivation is saying that "I'm surprised there isn't a wagon on me"?

Unvote, Vote: Elsa von Spielburg

Playstyles. I've seen scum often use the "too honest" approach; often it leads to people defending them in the way you are for him (though I haven't ruled out you two just being scumbuddies covering for one another). And while I think town can use bluntly honest words, his tone and post style/amount just don't sit right to me. He oooooozes scuminess.

By the way, you ignored this completely passive response while accusing me of ignoring Elsa.

I'm fucking sick of the personal attacks and I couldn't care less about this game any longer.

[DemonHybrid]

I'd have cared more about this shit if people (Benmage, ABR, CMAR) stopped being assholes and didn't go down the "you're a fucking bad player/moron" path, but at this point my care is at 0%.

[DemonHybrid]

Just because I made a mistake in a hammer due to a shitload of things that convinced me that something was off, believed a jester claim because it's part of Scott's meta or because I haven't talked about every single person at every time (just like everyone else did with Hazard, drew and Els) doesn't make me a bad player or a moron, so fuck off.