Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[Vi]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 4 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE, RedCoyote - (L-7)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 2 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe - (L-9)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 3 - Vi, Juls, C-Worl - (L-8)

Iecerint

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 4 - ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-7)

RayFrost

- 1 - Maxous - (L-10)

ToastyToast

- 1 - AlmasterGM - (L-10)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

...

RayFrost 334 and 335... Bullying easy targets observed. Town credit drained.

AlmasterGM 336... Playback for emphasis.

Why is

[Amrun]

my buddy, specifically

?

Suspiciously specific denial found. Ambiguous. Desire of scum flip prominent to discern number of antiTown parties.

Magister Ludi 365...

Tu quoque

sighted. Probability unknown regarding whether these are scumtells...?

RedCoyote 372...
*In re: "easy lynches" - Denied. ViBot memory banks have no knowledge of {B4574rD Br05, C-Worl, DeityKabuto}, yet this subset is not targeted for priority extermination. {Drunken Unicorn Master, DeityKabuto, Katsuki} do not have playerlist subsets interested in their extermination.
*In re: "we'll be going at it" - Laughable. Subject's kill method questioned to be "talking and explaining things to people like they're Town".
*In re: ToastyToast and "pure meta" - Denied. Subject's literacy rank substandard.

RedCoyote 373 regarding C-Worl... Denied until source of Town read eradicated.

...

...

Unvote... GreyICE

Vote... Amrun

(L-6)

...

[DeityKabuto]

C-worl's scum for ridonculous accusations tied with completely insulting and terrible reasoning along with saying essentially nothing about the game aside from "lololol agm + greyice scumz0r"

That's completely retarded. You think I'm scum for stating my reads, disagreeing with other people's stupid plan, and actually sticking to reads that I find valid. D1 it's hard to get any scum reads without a flip must less two reads with no flips. I'm sticking to my guns until I see one of them in a grave unless you can actually change my mind on the subject.

(Hint: In order to attempt changing my mind you have to actual make a counter case to mine instead of just attempting to discredit it by laughing it off.)

You've got

two

reads. No other reads at all. That's the issue. I've gotten plenty of reads even if they are slight and have stated them while you've said essentially nothing about the game state.

You're "plan" is essentially "fuck you guys I do what I want" - please to be explaining how this is good play. Even if you trust your reads to that extent... if we think you're scum we'll have you lose the duel you initiate meaning you'll only empower your "scum read" that you dueled. This is why your plan won't be effectual regarding the duel mechanic.

Also: people seem to not understand something

In a duel we can have both people lose by voting "no winner" - this means both duelists die. A duel can essentially be a double lynch. Please consider this when you're talking about it.

Dude, nobody has to conform to what the majority wants. This is a

YOU-make-the-decision-game

. If he wants to use the system differently, there is no need to put him out like that. Maybe his way could work. In real life, I'm pretty sure most people prefer to do whatever they want, and will take any opportunity they can to do so.

But I really don't like to do one thing just because every else is doing it.

[RayFrost]

Deity: mafia is first and foremost a team game. Working together to find the scum is crucial and people going all vigilante with something that can be a very powerful tool is not what I'd call wise or good play. I'm not demanding that he

always do what everybody else wants

like you seem to be implying. I'm saying that we've come up with a good and solid system and that his pig headedness here is not good. This is especially true because his single action can impact the rest of us in not-positive ways.

Vi: wut. How is maxous being bullied and how is he an easy target? Also: bullying is a scumtell... since when? AFAIK I've been a pretty major "bully" by your standards in the majority of the games where I'm actually playing them if what I posted re: maxous is bullying.

Also

really

don't follow how giving my reads on both deity and amrun is bullying either. I demand reads from someone who (still) isn't providing them. You call this bullying. I call this wanting content.

[RedCoyote]

Denied. ViBot memory banks have no knowledge of {B4574rD Br05, C-Worl, DeityKabuto}, yet this subset is not targeted for priority extermination. {Drunken Unicorn Master, DeityKabuto, Katsuki} do not have playerlist subsets interested in their extermination.

I understand that, but, unless we're misunderstanding each other, your gripe is that my targets are all lacking in experience, yes? I contend that this is a coincidence, and, further, that if you were accurate in claiming that I was only going after a set type of player, that I should have my sights on players like DK, Kat, etc.

Subject's kill method questioned to be "talking and explaining things to people like they're Town".

Cute. Well, I actually do think your town for the time being, so I don't see the problem here.

So, you know, stick that in your USB port and scan it.

Subject's literacy rank substandard.

You think he's being genuinely twisted up? But then how do you explain his last response to me?

• What can I say, I like compromise. Its not like either opinion is ZOMG WRONG, but neither is perfect either. So, somewhere inbetween seems like a good option.

Come on. This isn't townie-sounding at all, not given the game's context.

Additionally, someone wise once wrote,

If you attempt to do a "meta read" on someone to see if they do or did something the same way in a different game, you are heavily biased toward seeing what you wanted to see in the first place.

So I'd be weary about putting too much stock into how Toast is or isn't behaving according to your memory bank.

[inHimshallibe]

inHimshallibe 359

et al

...

Defense of Amrun and RedCoyote heavily noted.

Post stream appears "easy".

Tricksy robotses.

Setting up contingencies. Katsuki-scum at this point is mostly predicated on Amrun being weak, but town, or there is another scumteam, to which Amrun could certainly belong.

[elvis_knits]

I have recently been re-thinking theory and I'm not sure it's wise to share townreads, or at least details on why someone is town, unless they come under pressure, particularly in the beginnings of large games.

In the middle/end, it becomes imperative, but I think it's better to observe on the first day and question scumspects.

Or I'm trying that out, in the very least.

Why are you changing your play strategy about sharing town reads in a game specifically designed to encourage and reward town reads?

[mykonian]

The drunken unicorn thingy is pretty obviously scum. If someone is actually interested in lynching them right now, I’ll make a case, but I doubt that is necessary right now.

Also, it was pretty clear RC was paying attention to the thread already, but he's now claiming he's going to read it like he hasn't touched the material. Forced imo.

Vote: Rayfrost

His comment about being scum is worthy of a vote.

Toasty is also worth keeping an eye on.

The only reason a mind would wonder to the possibility of two ro more scum teams is if the known composition of your own scum team is not very strong or large.

C-Worls 81 looks like a vote park with an easy transition to a any forming wagon. Dislike.

----------

As for Flavor about more scum teams, we have

Wu

with the Quan family,

Shu

with Lui Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and possibly a serial killer along the lines of Dong Zhou or Lu Bu.

Each probably interact favorably with duels somehow

Scum are the ones probably thinking about two teams, and then you go ahead and list them out as two teams?

For purposes of putting a game together, I could easily see Mafia portrayed as an alliance of Wu and Shu.

Don’t do this Inhim.


Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Elvis_knits must be lynched.

[inHimshallibe]

I'm afraid I'm a bit shuked as to how those two quotes are similar.

I think elvis is just excited to be playing again and is taking the overzealous and overcareful town angle too far. I could also see myself being biased toward keeping her around because I don't like lynching people that haven't played in a while so soon.

Hmm, I want a duel. Gamma should pull the trigger on our Drunken Unicorn participant.

[inHimshallibe]

UNVOTE: DeityKabuto

VOTE: Magistar Ludi

I wish I could add some stunning, convincing point to the case, but I can't think of one.

RayFrost especially made some very good points that caused me to re-read ML carefully to find that I agree with the points made. This vote is better than my previous one.

inHim, I have yet to be told why making that joke was scummy. To be honest, I don't care that much. Your vote for such a thing at this stage of the game is weak. It was just a joke.

The bold is very probable town posting from Amrun. She recognizes a wagon with a seemingly better than decent chance at catching scum and doesn't add fluff reasoning.

[Katsuki]

Still need to get caught up, but TBH, I'm ready to see a Gamma-Amrun dual.

ViBot has successfully identified inhim as an undesirable member of this game too.

My lack of reads makes me feel iffy, though my one strong read would probably be rather unpopular.

[Katsuki]

Note to self: read up on Iece.

[Iecerint]

@RedC, I made the observations you're asking about in the votepost:

It also appears you DID know

why I choose those three characters

of Shu, (being principle proponents/brothers) yet saw fit to try painting my expression of Shu as somewhat maligned or weird or anti-town. I do not think it was at all.

As for Wu, its your guess as good as mine, considering that the Quan family has four members plus sisters.

It looks like I misremembered "members" as "brothers," but it doesn't affect anything.

I'd rather lynch elvis than Amrun.

[elvis_knits]

What is your problem with me?

I don't see you ever giving even a hint of a reason, unless I missed it somehow.

[Iecerint]

@RF -- If I had to support another wagon, it would be the wagon on elvis. I didn't understand the wagon on myko, and I don't think Amrun is scum, either; she's doing the same logic-checking that gave me good feelings about her in Follow The Cop AFAICT. (Oddly, though, I didn't get the same <3town<3 vibes from her until I just did a reread.) On the other hand, she's also not really townhunting the way townAmrun did in that game....

Basically, I have some other suspicions, but those have lots of "well, it could be X..." dependencies attached to them. I feel much more confident about Ludi.

But I've felt better about Amrun after part of her explanation was that this is a large game; I had that in the back of my head as I asked her about it.

Ludi is way, way more obvscum than either of you, though. Even if a player has a sense that 3/3 is more likely, they're not going to come out with it in such certain terms and they CERTAINLY won't use "not-3/3!" as a condition that rules out a set-up possibility, ESPECIALLY when they don't rhetoric-walk their way there first.

[Iecerint]

Also, RedC, claiming ignorance one more time is going to go beyond the boundaries of SoD. <_<

[Iecerint]

Iec gets a special mention down here because of super-hard tunneling for a pretty mediocre reason.

I disagree. I think Ludi-tier slips, provided good exposure, are the ideal basis for a D1 lynch.

[elvis_knits]

OK, so you don't like myko or amrun as scum, so you don't like me. Do you think my reasons are scummy or just wrong?

On the Ludi topic, I haven't liked him since the beginning even though I am still a bit confused about the flavor aspect. Let's go through this as if I am stupid.

Is this right:
Ludi assumed two three-man scum teams.

My question is: Do you think that scum would be told about another scum team? I haven't played in a while, and I think they more often would not be told, but maybe? I'm just asking to be sure it's even a possibility.

[mykonian]

OK, so you don't like myko or amrun as scum, so you don't like me. Do you think my reasons are scummy or just wrong?

On the Ludi topic, I haven't liked him since the beginning even though I am still a bit confused about the flavor aspect. Let's go through this as if I am stupid.

Is this right:
Ludi assumed two three-man scum teams.

My question is: Do you think that scum would be told about another scum team? I haven't played in a while, and I think they more often would not be told, but maybe? I'm just asking to be sure it's even a possibility.

FUEL THAT WAGON.

Ludi isn't the lynch today. It's pretty obvious he isn't. Stop thinking he is, you can have your wagon back tomorrow.

@Gamma: I wouldn't mind if you pulled the trigger now and dueled someone. It gives us time to analyse it, and we aren't advancing that fast anymore anyway.

\
Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Elvis_knits must be lynched.

[elvis_knits]

@Gamma: I wouldn't mind if you pulled the trigger now and dueled someone. It gives us time to analyse it, and we aren't advancing that fast anymore anyway.

Yeah, let's kill someone, anyone, to liven things up.

HOW CAN PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE TOWN?

[Iecerint]

I didn't get any negative feelings about myko at all, so that push seemed totally out of the blue to me. I was surprised the wagon picked up 4 (IIRC?) votes back then. I think it's suspicious that you came up with such a different take on things from the start, which can imply a different set of knowledge about the game (e.g. if you were discounting things I noticed because you knew those players were town, etc), but I don't think the logic itself was scummy. Maybe you can re-explain what was up with the myko wagon?

I think your vote for Amrun seemed totally out of the blue to me at the time, though I see some prior allusions to Amrun now that I reread you again. Still, I think your votepost is a bit scummy. Amrun'd been relatively active IMO, even if the style was awkward given that you knew her meta. Even your text is kinda schizophrenic; you say she's scum for not scumhunting, but then you allude (disparagingly) to scumhunt-y things she'd done (e.g. meta use, and NOT vaguely -- it was the basis of an unvote, and she followed up when I asked her about it).

Re: Ludi, that's correct, but it's beyond just implicitly or passively assuming 3 teams. Rather, he presented the make-up of the Wu scumteam as a puzzle given that they have more than 3 members. A normal town response might be something like "Huh? That's odd. Maybe I'm wrong about the logic behind the Shu scumteam" -- which, IIRC, we'd already established was conspicuously leaving out Zhuge Liang. Instead, in spite of being aware enough of flavor information to the contrary, he presents the flavor as a problem with his 3-man assumption to be overcome or something. This is unnatural because his assumptions were assumptions to begin with. <_<

I have never been in a game where scum was told about the other scumteam; however, scum can probably infer whether there's another scumteam being that they know their own size.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Though I'll admit that that one was O_O for me, too. <_<

[elvis_knits]

My negative feelings against Myko and to some extent (AGM), has to do with my belief that scum will try to exploit this mechanic to their advantage. I remember two games in particular that have great bearing on my belief.

One was Dollhouse mini, (I linked before, but here it is again http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =dollhouse), where each day we lynched someone and could imprint them (AKA empower). The whole game hinged on scum finding ways to imprint/empower each other and prevent town from imprint/empower. You will see I took a similar strategy in that game and met with lots of opposition and bitching and moaning (some from scum, some from town). I did find scum on page one though because Deathnote wanted to "imprint everyone because it's fun playing with moar powerzlulz." You can see this play out in the first few pages even if you don't want to read too much.

The other game I am thinking of is Dynamite mafia (http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=8119). I think it was about this many players, where one player blew another player up each day (similar to this double-death duel). I was scum in that game, in a 3-man scum team. Only 3 scum in a large game because, as anticipated, town wasted several days blowing each other indiscriminately without majority consent, without discussion.

So I see this game as a combo of those two games that I played in. Scum want to be empowered, maybe even need to be empowered. But failing that they want town to be as reckless and as stupid as possible and go around killing each other. My play since the beginning of this game has been to prevent scum from getting away with this and try to discourage mistaken town from going along with it.

[elvis_knits]

blowing each other indiscriminately

I swear I didn't mean it that way...

lol

[Amrun]

RedC:

Why didn't I mention elvis before: because her attack on me made her third bad attack and that was one too many for me. At two, I just wanted to observe, though I did note it internally.

I liked some of her questions to me after I said that, though.

You didn't answer my question: you brought up meta, not me, but my meta doesn't support your statement. I have, so far, scumhunted a lot as scum. You say it's not all meta-based, but why bring up meta when it does not support your argument at all and cntradicts it?

[Gammagooey]

Yeaaaah I'm not dueling anyone yet.

I AM setting a deadline for "today's lynch" though- my duel will happen by saturday night at the latest so we have 2 days to kill it, 1-2 days to go over anything from the flip, then 1-2 days to do the next duel.

If someone gets to L-2 ala Juls' plan they have enormously high chances of being my duel.
Otherwise I'm just gonna choose whichever I think is best out of the wagons. (this is currently elvis.)

tl;dr: If you want someone to die WAGON THEM HARDER (better faster stronger)
Cases are nice too but not required.