Mini 1170: Nowhereville Mafia '11- Over!

[SleepyKrew]

Kalofer is inputting?

[hiplop]

But he didn't assume that Sleepy was scum. He was assuming he had a killing role. And that still doesn't clear him from being scum, so even if he did have to think about it, the kill going through just clears him from making the kill not being scum, so the vote still should have stood.

Also, I'm not asking you to tell me what to think, I'm asking you to explain how you think. Communication is key. While that sentence stands, i want Hiplop to explain himself. Not just say, "can't you see it". Cause I can't.

Also, his vote is still OMGUS

No, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
Ive mentioned that you're scum/idiot for a while now. And you're further pointing this out. Its not OMGUS, i genuinely think you're scum.

I jailkept Sleepykrew, the kill still went through. I didnt think about that, i just assumed he could be scum, the killing f charter made sense. I thought about it, and then i realized it was bad-posting by me, and i was likely accusing a townie. Dont ever talk for me.

So the fact that Hiplop had 0 votes on him at the time of the claim and the fact that his claim just flat doesn't make sense, indicaes that he isn't lying?

Um, i had votes on me when i claimed, and you were trying to get a wagon on me, yeah i softclaimed before then? i didnt want someone who could easily be townie, to be killed. You've been twisting my words far oo much. Also, how doesnt it make sense? Its a normal role, it made sense with what ive been saying from the start. You just want t oconfuse everyone, so you're safe.

Convicted, not desperate. Also, this isn't OMGUS. If anything it's him that is OMGUS on me.

Please explain how Jailkeeping someone then accusing them of killing someone then saying you had to "think about your result" and unvote them makes sense. Cause I sincerely can't make sense of it.

No, you're doing the OMGUS thing. You're trying to come at me, because i'm a PR.


And espeonage is right, charter dies, after hes tunneling SK..little suspicious dontyathink?

8,11,12,13 all were fairly ambiguous and he was voting purely on the fact that Charter was dead.

And if he thought, he convinced his buddies to kill charter and but someone else made the kill, why unvote sleepy?

Also,Why not revote him after we told him that doesn't confirm him town because he could still be scum, if that was his reasoning?

To me it sounds like he slipped up with what he wanted his fake claim to be. I think he is a Scum Roleblocker, this also doesn't confirm Sleepy, cause sleepy doesn't have a role he can confirm that was blocked.

1. Theres a higher chance that scum attempted to frame him by killing charter. Really its the closest we have to confirmation

i dont understand the second point

How have i slipped up? if you knew how to play mafia, you would understand my breadcrumbs.

Take off your tunnel glasses.

So you are all for lynches, that you havent said ANYTHING ABOUT? Seriously, you're so likely scum right now, and you're stuff doesnt make all that much sense in that short post

[CooLskins]

No, im not setting up a vig, idiot. Don't assume

Im the jailkeeper. I jailkept sleepykrew, and the kill still went through...

See how i had to think about it now?

Now we go for panzer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

okay, so you claim jail keeper. A jail keeper is a town role blocking protection role (unless I'm incorrect). How does that clear sk? Assuming 3 scum, you have a 1/12 chance of picking the night kill. This sounds great you say, a night kill (two actually) happened and you jailed a guy. Apparently the guy didn't kill anybody right? While technically true he could in fact be part of the scum faction. Depending how it is setup (who is credited for the kill, godfather or just one person submits it)

SK could be one of the other two scums who didn't submit the kill.

It doesn't clear sk at all.

I have to agree with panzer on this one, hip's claim wasn't well thought out at all, but I'm inclined to believe it. I don't see scum willfully giving out fake information like that, too much could go wrong. Its way too easy to get caught in a lie with fake results.

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

[hiplop]

No, im not setting up a vig, idiot. Don't assume

Im the jailkeeper. I jailkept sleepykrew, and the kill still went through...

See how i had to think about it now?

Now we go for panzer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

okay, so you claim jail keeper. A jail keeper is a town role blocking protection role (unless I'm incorrect). How does that clear sk? Assuming 3 scum, you have a 1/12 chance of picking the night kill. This sounds great you say, a night kill (two actually) happened and you jailed a guy. Apparently the guy didn't kill anybody right? While technically true he could in fact be part of the scum faction. Depending how it is setup (who is credited for the kill, godfather or just one person submits it)

SK could be one of the other two scums who didn't submit the kill.

It doesn't clear sk at all.

I have to agree with panzer on this one, hip's claim wasn't well thought out at all, but I'm inclined to believe it. I don't see scum willfully giving out fake information like that, too much could go wrong. Its way too easy to get caught in a lie with fake results.

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

good job with actually reading my posts..

[CooLskins]

Reads part two

Section 2, the rest of d-1...

Also, things in bold and in larger type are meant to be answer by the people that they are directed to. So if you aren't going to read all of it just scan it for your quotes and the associated questions.

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

So you're willing to just sit back and let a townie get lynched on day 1? You're not even going to try to find scum? T

hat may not be inherently scummy

, but it sure ain't pro-town.

This just got my attention right off the bat. Getting townies lynched is the essence of playing scum. Could this be a "theory point" to justify later actions? Probably not, but I still find it interesting that Kool doesn't think lynching townies is scummy.

Btw. This may seen weird if you haven't played much but I've decided that I'm not even going to bother with scum hunting. Today is town hunting day.

Town hunting ftw! First time he mentions town hunting. But one thing that strikes me as odd is he says I'm not even going to bother with scum hunting. I think town hunting can be very useful, but only in combination with scum hunting...

Actually no. Even if I was scum Elfin would be town. Take a look at Elfin's iso. Especially look at the stuff just before I unvoted. Look at it with the mindset of he is a confirmed town. You should be able to then see the motivations which is what separates town from scum. He has town motivations thus he is town.

That is completely independent of my alignment.

this has turned into a pseud espy iso as of late, but he makes a good point here that is central in my personally town read of elfin. Reading noob in my opinion is all about motivation (bub has drilled me over and over again about this, and its actually helping me in some other games, thanks bub). Elfin an obvious town motivation for his posting back in early day one, whilst kool doesn't. That is my main reason for suspecting kool; He doesn't have a town motivation for his posts.

Or he could be scum WIFOMing you into believing newbtown. If you want to "confirm town" on anyone else, it should be NeEvil or Kalofer.

Divulging into wifom isn't good. SK has had a tendency to bring it up a lot later in the game as well.

Why so concerned with it?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Esp
Prove just how town you are.

Did we just enter the stupid vote stage? Anyway, its not pro-town to vote for someone to make them prove to you that they are town. Your votes should always be on the most scummy people.

Espeonage is also a liability to the town, saying that he's not even going to scum hunt today. He's going to town hunt. Great, it's not like the mafia are trying to look like town. If you look for town attributes, you're going to find them in everyone. If you look for the tiny slip-ups that make people scum, you're doing more good for the town. Also, it makes me uncomfortable that you claimed that The Kool was the next person that needed to justify themselves, without any real reason why. Explain why you think The Kool is scummy, please.

Exactly what I'm think at this point in my re-read. espy seems to be shouting out a lot of reads, but nothing is ever explained...

@espy, why didn't you explain your votes on kool and elfin better?

What's wrong with liking bandwagons? What's wrong with espeonage town hunting? And my explanation is that the kool seems like a good place to start with. I agree with espy's strategy so far and as far as I'm concerned we're not fully out of RVS yet, sure people are voting based on "reasons" but the majority of those are for a person who I am fairly certain is newbtown.

Blatant espy defense. Why do you feel like you need to defend anybody? I don't see town motivation for anybody to defend somebody else. I never had and I most likely never will.

context

ninja'd and I didn't want to put some on my above post...

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused a bit there.

People keep going back and reading the thread, huh? Man, I might do that, but I don't have the dedication or the time. So, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it,

I often rely on other peoples' evidence and theories

, and use those to formulate my own (note that I do not just bw along with their theories).

So you admit to being a sheep? And that you are easily manipulated by popular opinion? So you are admitting to a lack of independent judgment? This reads as going with the flow to me.

and actual post.

Hydraguy: I think you should read the part after the bold. It contradicts you. Ooh, I feel like Phoenix Wright.
Quinn, did you mean Kalofer?
Hydra: I've never actually used meta before. As for Elf, like I said not much to go on. That's why I requested stuff from his old site.

Again a defense of kool. Why do people feel like they have to defend other people?

@SK, why defend kool? As a matter of fact why defend anybody but yourself?

Ok that's twice you've said I'm scum, mind explaining why?

I've explained plenty.

NeEvil is also scum. Yay metas

Epic proof in a bit.
But I've already made up my mind... l2r?

What is wrong with this? How bout everything? Moving on now...

Sorry guys; I don't tend to get on over the weekends.

kks.

1. Do you prefer playing as Mafia/Town/3rd Party?
2. How often do you usually post?
3. What is your timezone?
4. What is your stance on gut reads?
5. Can I expect WoTs from you?

1. Town, so far; this is only my fourth game; the others have been newbies.
2. Couple of times a day during the week; rarely if at all on weekends.
3. AEST; GMT+10.
4. I don't particularly want to hear about them; use them to get a feel for the game, then make a case based on evidence.
5. I'll try to avoid it, but you'll probably get posts of quotes with responses from me.

Seeing as I have nothing else to do I am just going to follow espeonage
UNVOTE:
VOTE: The Kool

Or not.
VOTE: Kalofer

Contradictions are a big deal, but that particular one was excusable because elf is IMO newbtown. Unless, of course, you want to go ahead with the no mercy policy and lynch him for that which would be fine since he did contradict himself and that is scummy but I believe that if you are to lynch him he'll flip town.

I don't like this post. Elf may be a newb, but why clear him as newb

town

. At best, it's a null tell. You're blowing things out of proportion with the 'no mercy policy lynch' line. You also seem awful sure that Elf is town in this post. I don't like the way you seem to be copying straight from Espeonage.

yay sp posted! yay, and he says... nothing. Sorry guys but we will have to wait a bit for the replacement to make a good read on this lurky fellow.
but wait, this is hip's slot, ohh....

Elf, based on the one game from on-site, I'd call scum. But I'm going to read the other site before jumping to conclusions.

-Sweat drops-

I know Dx i can't help it

Why care about looking town?

A wagon, in this sense, being a general agreement to lynch the same person? Everyone may have differeing opinions on who is scummier, but as long as most of us can agree that one person is scum enough to lynch, then

we can turn away from our primary targets

for a bit and actually lynch someone.

Something is wrong with this, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe its the part where he says "we can turn away from our primary targets and lynch town"... No town motivation for that post, appeal for a

nonspecific

lynch as well.

Kalofer, sheeping is not pro-town. Declaring that you are gonna lay low is not a town thing to do. Not voting on the first day isn't a town thing to do. Voting someone with a vote while professing anti-bandwagon views is not a town thing to do. You see openness and honesty, I see ducking and hiding and contradictions.

After reading this post it came to me that I was reading LC as town at this point. All of his posts appear to have content in them and make generally good points. I'm going to put him up as leaning town (but still close to neutral).

If you're so sure he's town, then you should be defending him and NOT be voting him.

Wrong, just plain wrong. You shouldn't spend your time and enerygy defending a town read if you have a scum read in your sights. Always focus on scum hunting (ortownhuntingfuckyoutooespy).

Unvote; Vote: Kalofer

Of course I told you to change your vote just to see if you would.

remove anything I said about lc being town, he goes back to net after this post. Stupid gambit, just a face into desk moment for me.

so basically, once day 2 starts it will be easier to pick out the scum.

Wish it worked like that.

has anything truer been said?

Huh?? O.o im confused now

I am going to throw this in here simply because this is what elfin mainly posts. I'm confused don't lynch me plox. Its more aggravating then anything else, take it however you see it on this one...

Are you still confused?

[@kool]Who do you think is scum. Lay one name down.

There are a few people I think could be scum, have some things for them and some against, but I'm gonna have to mostly go with cloudocean, for being really quiet in the background.

This show a hesitence in kool to implicate anybody. Even though he does throw down a name, he still isn't completely sold on anybody. He has gone back and forth and never really had a stance on anyone person.

Very nice, panzer's first post... 10 pages in to be exact...

Thoughts from reading the game.
The Kool is scum. Every post he makes strengthens my scumread on him. I can take any of his posts, point at how he is just posting for the sake of it, and not to hunt scum. Many of his posts are scummy as well.
LordChronos is so town my head hurts.
Elfin does not impress, and while he seems to be very new, I'm not reading him as scum.
SleepyKrew is probably Kool's scumbuddy. cloudocean is likely the third scum.
Everyone else is floating around in the middle somewhere.

Espeonage, in 103 you list three people as scum, why did you vote Elfin over the other two?

Unvote, vote The Kool

There is no way anyone can still be clinging to an Elfin vote and think it's a good idea. Those voting him need to post a very compelling case, or move on. I'll be posting a case on The Kool shortly (though Espeonage highlighted the main point, how The Kool has no interest in posting anything relevant).

I agree with this, but I'm thinking that

Vote:SleepyKrew

is the better play. Overaggressive and pounding on Elfen, who is obviously town and confused, just makes him seem like he is trying to grab an easy lynch here.

I also like LordChronos as scum over cloudocean, but I wouldn't be opposed to either.

Agressivism isn't a scum tell. In fact the opposite is. Hammering (by talking and constantly probing) is how you brake somebody down and force a slip. Why do you think cops sometimes spend 8-12 hours questioning a guy to get a confession? Because it goddamn works that's why.

Elfin, you should let the people I directed those points to respond first. If they are scum, and someone responds first, you can help them out. I will answer your questions after they do/don't respond.

heh, good example of why defending is bad, among other reasons...

Who is this "Skinny"?
Also, I'm willing to make a deal. We lynch Kal. Then, if I'm not NKed, we lynch me. Good?

I hate silly deals like this. It just encourages people to lynch somebody.

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon.

This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

We have sooo much time to make up our minds. Why should we lynch soon when we can wait a bit to make a better read? You aren't suggesting that we quick lynch day 1 are you? And why is lynching now better for the town then lynching later?

Right now I'm fully convinced that kool should be today's lynch. He also never seemed to defend (at least to my satisfaction) his sheeping and going with the flow.

In other news, I need to really arse my hydra partner to post more.

not to quote myself but I still have the exact same reactions to that kool post...

Yay, thank you, my head hurts less now.

As for the 'posting just to post', that is precisely what it is. It's saying 'I'm still here, no need to poke me, I just don't have anything new to contribute.' I post so I won't be considered absent.

And for now, off for the rest of the day. Time to give my brain a break, draw some stuff, and come back to tackle this with a fresh mind.

I'm horrified that I missed this before. This is just friggin' silly. So yah, you don't want to post content, we get that already. there is literly no town motivation for the above post period.

Guys, we can go for the newb [kool] next. Let's just get this guy already <.<

anybody else for a kool/sk scumteam?

Okay, The Kool. Here's what it comes down to. I was asked why I find you so pro-town, so I went back and read your ISO. You're playing really scummy, and I honestly can't blame people for finding you suspicious. However, I don't want to waste today's lynch on someone I believe so strongly to be pro-town. I want you to claim. I suspect that you've been breadcrumbing, and that's the only reason I have for finding you pro-town. If you're a PR, claim now so we don't lose a townie today and another tonight.

This is how the scum lynched quinster on day-1.

And this looks like a good place to stop (page 13). I'm going to be out for a bit and then come back and do some more...

reads, kool, kal (I didn't have much on him but his posts lack something, and that something tends to be the townish flare that townies tend to have.), and sk are scum at this point.

LC on th eother hand is hard for me to place. I would say a leaning town (despite what I said early) would be appropriate here.

Panzer at this point has made one bad post and the res are okay...

Espy is obv town, and don't even try to convince me other wise.

eh, hip's slot is lurktastic.

and that's about it for now.

[CooLskins]

not to polute my reads for iso purposes...

No, im not setting up a vig, idiot. Don't assume

Im the jailkeeper. I jailkept sleepykrew, and the kill still went through...

See how i had to think about it now?

Now we go for panzer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

okay, so you claim jail keeper. A jail keeper is a town role blocking protection role (unless I'm incorrect). How does that clear sk? Assuming 3 scum, you have a 1/12 chance of picking the night kill. This sounds great you say, a night kill (two actually) happened and you jailed a guy. Apparently the guy didn't kill anybody right? While technically true he could in fact be part of the scum faction. Depending how it is setup (who is credited for the kill, godfather or just one person submits it)

SK could be one of the other two scums who didn't submit the kill.

It doesn't clear sk at all.

I have to agree with panzer on this one, hip's claim wasn't well thought out at all, but I'm inclined to believe it. I don't see scum willfully giving out fake information like that, too much could go wrong. Its way too easy to get caught in a lie with fake results.

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

good job with actually reading my posts..

Yah, it was badly worded but all I'm saying is that your jail keep doesn't clear sk at all.

[hiplop]

wait, you see a problem with defending people? So you're fine with lynching a townie, so that you dont have to defend them? We work as a cohesive unit. I wouln't be surprised if the hydra is scum, maybe? Posts like that don't seem townie to me. Eh just a hunch


It means he has a lower chance of being scum. I highly doubt there are 3 killing roles in this game. It doesnt clear him, but it lowers the chances

[Kalofer]

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

Scum reads (i.e. people who I'd like to see lynched):
Cloudocean
The Kool


Cloud has been lurking waaaay too much and not posting anything relevant IMO
The kool I have wanted to lynch since day 1 and I still do but I'm becoming more and more unsure as to whether my vote should be on him.

I don't know anything and don't want to take part at all in the whole claim business. It's just too much WIFOM. I'll have to reread the whole thing from his vote on SK but I CBA right now. By 2-3 hours I believe I'll have a more thorough opinion.

And as for your other question, I was not defending espy at all, I don't he even was under attack for me to defend him in the first place. The only person I defended was elfen and that was cause I disagreed with the case on him.

[cloudocean]

The lurker argument is boring me

[CooLskins]

wait, you see a problem with defending people? So you're fine with lynching a townie, so that you dont have to defend them? We work as a cohesive unit. I wouln't be surprised if the hydra is scum, maybe? Posts like that don't seem townie to me. Eh just a hunch


It means he has a lower chance of being scum. I highly doubt there are 3 killing roles in this game. It doesnt clear him, but it lowers the chances

Did I say I wanted to lynch a townie? No I said that defending other people isn't pro town. This is especially true in the early game when you have no real reads. From what I read so far today (pages 5-13) people were defending each other right and left when they really had no basis for their town reads. It is one thing to say "I don't like that particular lynch because of x" and another to say, "X can't possibly be scum because he is so obv town for these reasons." One is arguing that their are better lynches out their (my scum reads) the other is arguing that a player is town...

Now that was probably poorly worded so let me explain farther.

Pressure is always good. Putting somebody under pressure is always a good thing. The town always gets information out of it (the game is in fact the uninformed minority verses the informed minority). Somebody else defending another player lessens that pressure and hurts the town. It also allows for the person being questioned to say "ohh yeah, exactly what he said". That doesn't give the town any information does it? It doesn't even give the town a hint of a motive. It is also a way for scum buddies to help each other from getting lynched.

Lets take this example.

A noob scum player comes into a game and makes a bad post. Somebody questions him about it and he answer poorly. The same person attacks him on his answers. The noob's scum bud comes in and answer for him and defends his actions. Noob says, "he hit the nail on the head lets go home".

Put simply you should never need to defend another player. You should be persuade the town to your specific scum suspect and have them lynch him. You should use all of your energy to get the people you think are scum lynched under all circumstances PERIOD. Defending people simply distract you and the town from that goal.

from the wiki:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... em_Lynched
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Maneuvers
and if it can be considered valid:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Manifesto

All of these suggest that attacking your target is the best approach for town. Now enough about theory and off to reading.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Vote count D-2 #8

(3) The Kool- Sleepykrew, Kalofer, cloudocean

(3) cloudocean- Elfen, The Kool, Espeonage

(1) Kalofer- LordChronos

(1) Panzerjager- hiplop

(1) hiplop- Panzerjager

(1) Not voting: CooLskins

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is June 19th, Midnight Central.

[PJ.]

But he didn't assume that Sleepy was scum. He was assuming he had a killing role. And that still doesn't clear him from being scum, so even if he did have to think about it, the kill going through just clears him from making the kill not being scum, so the vote still should have stood.

Also, I'm not asking you to tell me what to think, I'm asking you to explain how you think. Communication is key. While that sentence stands, i want Hiplop to explain himself. Not just say, "can't you see it". Cause I can't.

Also, his vote is still OMGUS

No, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
Ive mentioned that

A.you're scum/idiot for a while now

. And you're further pointing this out. Its not OMGUS, i genuinely think you're scum.

B.I jailkept Sleepykrew, the kill still went through. I didnt think about that, i just assumed he could be scum, the killing f charter made sense. I thought about it, and then i realized it was bad-posting by me, and i was likely accusing a townie

. Dont ever talk for me.

So the fact that Hiplop had 0 votes on him at the time of the claim and the fact that his claim just flat doesn't make sense, indicaes that he isn't lying?

Um,

C. i had votes on me when i claimed

, and you were trying to get a wagon on me, yeah i softclaimed before then? i didnt want someone who could easily be townie, to be killed.

D. You've been twisting my words far oo much.

Also, how doesnt it make sense? Its a normal role, it made sense with what ive been saying from the start. You just want t oconfuse everyone, so you're safe.

Convicted, not desperate. Also, this isn't OMGUS. If anything it's him that is OMGUS on me.

Please explain how Jailkeeping someone then accusing them of killing someone then saying you had to "think about your result" and unvote them makes sense. Cause I sincerely can't make sense of it.

E. No, you're doing the OMGUS thing. You're trying to come at me, because i'm a PR.

And espeonage is right, charter dies, after hes tunneling SK..little suspicious dontyathink?

8,11,12,13 all were fairly ambiguous and he was voting purely on the fact that Charter was dead.

And if he thought, he convinced his buddies to kill charter and but someone else made the kill, why unvote sleepy?

Also,Why not revote him after we told him that doesn't confirm him town because he could still be scum, if that was his reasoning?

To me it sounds like he slipped up with what he wanted his fake claim to be. I think he is a Scum Roleblocker, this also doesn't confirm Sleepy, cause sleepy doesn't have a role he can confirm that was blocked.

1. Theres a higher chance that scum attempted to frame him by killing charter. Really its the closest we have to confirmation

i dont understand the second point

How have i slipped up?

F. if you knew how to play mafia, you would understand my breadcrumbs

.

Take off your tunnel glasses.

So you are all for lynches,

G. that you havent said ANYTHING ABOUT

? Seriously, you're so likely scum right now, and you're stuff doesnt make all that much sense in that short post

A. Is untrue. You've have literally mentioned me being scum twice in the entire game.(before this post) Also it's Ad Hom. Which is typical in OMGUS attacks.

B. But How does that clear him? Out of 3 scum only one makes a kill. So you have a 33% chance of blocking scum's kill. Why are you clearing Sleepy over a 33% chance? On top of this, in you 903 you essentially agree that Sleepy isn't cleared and you should have never said he was, yet still say "good job reading your post" like you did the right thing, you didn't. You unvoted someone that still had a 66% chance of being scum given your result. To be honest with you, the post you agreed with in 903, is most of my arguement why you are scum.

C. Actually you didn't. Both me and Chronos unvoted and voted elsewhere.

D. Where?

E. No I'm coming at you because you're lying about a PR

F. Ad Hom(again reeks of OMGUS). Also, what breadcrumbs? The ones where you confuse half of us by making us think you were an info role? The one where you say Sleepy is cleared when he isn't? The one where you then say that you aren't an info role but he's cleared still?

G. What? You realize that most of Day 1 I was all over both sleepy and Kalofer, right? Just as everyone else, I've mentioned CO as lurkerscum. I really don't see how this statement of your is true. Essentially while accusing me of twisting your words, You have (on several occasions) accused me of things that are just plain untrue. Further evidence that it is you that is voting me to cover up your piss poor play.


@Cloudocean's last post: okay it's not a compelling case, but your play is indicative of scum. All you have done is stay in the back and shoot off pithy one liners and wagon people. So if you're bored with the arguement give us something else to say.

unvote, Vote:CloudOcean

[The Kool]

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

So you're willing to just sit back and let a townie get lynched on day 1? You're not even going to try to find scum?

That may not be inherently scummy

, but it sure ain't pro-town.

This just got my attention right off the bat. Getting townies lynched is the essence of playing scum. Could this be a "theory point" to justify later actions? Probably not, but I still find it interesting that Kool doesn't think lynching townies is scummy.

Trying to lynch town is def scum, lying back and letting them get lynched is not necessarily def scum, but is def anti-town.

A wagon, in this sense, being a general agreement to lynch the same person? Everyone may have differeing opinions on who is scummier, but as long as most of us can agree that one person is scum enough to lynch, then

we can turn away from our primary targets

for a bit and actually lynch someone.

Something is wrong with this, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe its the part where he says "we can turn away from our primary targets and lynch town"... No town motivation for that post, appeal for a

nonspecific

lynch as well.

Dude, l2r. You seem to have very selective vision when it comes to my posts. Is that what I said? Not by far! Everyone should have multiple people they think are scum, and are trying to lynch. If not enough people agree on who is most scummy, than some can switch to their #2 read or #3 read in order to get a majority on someone that is "scum enough to lynch". NOWHERE do I say anything about lynching town.

[@kool]Who do you think is scum. Lay one name down.

There are a few people I think could be scum, have some things for them and some against, but I'm gonna have to mostly go with cloudocean, for being really quiet in the background.

This show a hesitence in kool to implicate anybody. Even though he does throw down a name, he still isn't completely sold on anybody. He has gone back and forth and never really had a stance on anyone person.

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon.

This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

We have sooo much time to make up our minds. Why should we lynch soon when we can wait a bit to make a better read? You aren't suggesting that we quick lynch day 1 are you? And why is lynching now better for the town then lynching later?

Right now I'm fully convinced that kool should be today's lynch. He also never seemed to defend (at least to my satisfaction) his sheeping and going with the flow.

In other news, I need to really arse my hydra partner to post more.

not to quote myself but I still have the exact same reactions to that kool post...

Yay, thank you, my head hurts less now.

As for the 'posting just to post', that is precisely what it is. It's saying 'I'm still here, no need to poke me, I just don't have anything new to contribute.' I post so I won't be considered absent.

And for now, off for the rest of the day. Time to give my brain a break, draw some stuff, and come back to tackle this with a fresh mind.

I'm horrified that I missed this before. This is just friggin' silly. So yah, you don't want to post content, we get that already. there is literly no town motivation for the above post period.

And these I shall let you get to my explanations of before replying, because I've already answered these points(IIRC).

And I had some points to bring up on cloud... but then I dealt with cub scouts all afternoon and they ran it out of my mind. >.<

[Espeonage]

@ giant bold question: The votes were served better by not being backed up. Helps get better reactions in some cases.

[CooLskins]

^fair enough.

I'll get to kool's questions later on when I have done some more reading. I think I'm around page 17 or so now. I was going to do more yesterday but a "general error" popped up and I couldn't load an MS web page.

[CooLskins]

part3

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town. I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

I'm distancing orrrrrr I'm town and voting for someone who I think is scum, why are you preferring the former over the latter?
As to the claim I'm a VT.

kal claims vt at l-3. Sorta weird because his wagon didn't have the support to lynch him.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Justification for early claim. A simple answer would be that you would be denying information to scum.

@Kalofer
Accepting and admitting is defensive, you say? Defensiveness is scummy, you say? Well, I'm not out to change your opinions, just to get scum (like you)

killed

! If we don't do it today,

then I'll do it tonight

!

kinda nit pciky here, but killed =/= to lynch. But other then that I see this as a soft vig claim, or an sk slip.

I meant tonight as in past sundown, because I think we'll get enough people on the wagon by then.

ohh, yeah I meant in real time, gotcha not buying it.

I never said defensiveness is scummy by itself, though I believe many people here think so. I was just pointing out that admittance and acceptance can be a type of defense, what I find most scummy about kool is his need to excuse his vote and how he sneakily joined the two biggest wagons.
Btw you didn't answer my question, is the deal still on?

Wow, I didn't know we were talking about how defending someone was scummy back in the 300's. But his point about kool is esentially correct. He always is on the biggest wagon including quin's lynch wagon.

SK is vig. (lols at pun)

Ok that means DOC ON SK tonight. SK you should kill Kool tonight.

Now we can decide on a lynch. There have been more than enough claims. Kal and Elfin are now 10s and I will seriously consider stopping playing mafia if either are scum.

directing power roles, and not considering the possibility of sk being in fact the sk.

Oh btw if anyone's interested these are my reads:

1) Charter - town, maybe he's going slightly overboard with trying to lynch SK but he is logical and consistent and his motivations seem town.

2) Elfen - town, seems consistent with his newbiness at the very least. And although he's not doing very much I see no reason not to believe his "OMG it's making my head explode!" excuse. And at least he hasn't been silently creeping onto wagons like kool.

3) CoolSkins - town, has been asking really good questions, really good cases and brought up really good points.

4) LordChronos - town, consistent and seems town motivated, could be scum lying low and posting at opportune moments to try and look like town, but I wouldn't bet on it.

5) Cloudocean - null/town, doesn't say much (townie efficiency or scum laying low), but is consistent and seems to have town motivations.

6) The Kool - scum, plays the newb card, fair enough. But actions before that and need to justify vote for me as "not just simple bandwagoning" without providing adequate reasons looks scummy.

7) Supreme Overlord - null/scum, asks unimportant questions to make himself look like he's town and trying to scumhunt. Seems like you're asking me questions to try and understand my logic but I'm starting to think you're purposely misunderstanding it. Enough people think I'm scum already, those who aren't voting for me aren't because they think other people are scummier, you are spending the majority of your time trying to make me look even scummier instead of actually scumhunting.

8) SleepyKrew - null, could be an overly aggressive townie, could be overly aggressive scum trying to look like an overly aggressive townie, could be vig.

9) Quinnster - null/scum, his defense could be a result of scum quickly giving in to pressure after realising what he did was wrong, or town honestly saying he's sorry after realising what he did was wrong. Still, his random conviction that kool was town along with the rolefishing are scummy enough moves by themselves.

10) Espeonage - null, too secretive.

11) Panzerjager - null, isn't really being scummy but seems too naive to be definite town to me.

very interesting post from kal after not much happned.

have any of your reads changed from this post? If yes, why.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Answer: Because lets say you were actually a power role. Lets say a doctor for example. You claim at l-3. People aren't really committed to your wagon (as is right now) and we go off and lynch some other guy. The scum (knowing that you are town) nk you and we lose the doc over nothing. If, however, you claimed at l-1 you wouldn't have given the scum the information as early as you would have when you claimed at l-3. And the town is already sorta going to lynch you so if you don't get lynched today the scum might rationalize that you are dead meat and not nk you to wifom the town.

If I was a town PR I would have thought twice before claiming early, but I'm not a town PR and all I've told scum now is that I'm a VT, as if they suspected a town PR of playing so recklessly or as if they were actually planning on NKing me if I somehow survived past day 1.

flawed argument. You claiming vt takes one potential pr weilding townie off the table. changing the scum pr hit chance form about a 1/9 to a 1/8, which is significant.

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

An inability to make up new reasons show that you are content to lynch whoever is the largest wagon. It simply shows a lack of scumhunting and it is very anti-town. You can agree with other people reasons, but you need to have your own reasons as well, or atleast prove the other people's reasons to yourself.

Now we have the kool/kal back and forth. I'm tempted to agree with bub on this one,

I thought that slot was scum from the beginning, and charter's actions aren't helping. He's one of the four I'm willing to lynch.

Interesting suspicion of charter. One of the few people to suspect him much. Possible mafia kill setup, going to come back with a vig claim if he came under pressure. Tat didn't work out that well with a hip jail keeper claim.

I think Charter is the townest person here, so you're not gonna have my support on a charter wagon. At this point, a charter wagon would be anti town, we have three main suspects that stand above and beyond anyone else, and it's not even that close. They all will give substantial info about each other(and others) when they die. Trying to lynch anyone else right now is just flat non-productive. That's why I've entirely laid off you because I feel getting someone that isn't Kal, Kool, or Quinn is just plain wrong.

Would you still please read my exchange with him before he went V/LA? Also, what makes him the towniest? It's say hydraguy is the town leader and will be VERY sad/angry if he/they turn(s) out scum. Grammar with a hydra is so difficult

As for me, the lynches I'm okay with (in order) are:
1. Kalofer
2. charter
3. Espeonage
4. Elfen

Why has this scum list changed? other then the obvious charter death.

I'd be willing to bet that Quinnster replaced out because he was caught scum, this happens quite often. Sorry earworm, but your predecessor has screwed you. Earworm can't answer for things that quinnster's done and the replacement has effectively left us in a situation where the correct play is to lynch earworm.

@Elfen, also curious why you copied all of kalofer's reads, and why am I neutral "plain and simple"

First one to bring up a "game" reason for quinster to replace out.

@ Kal. From texas?? Why

@Pan, simple, you have not gave me anything to count you to scum lean.

Texas? Do you know shotty and gandy?

OK, I've finished reading. I can't defend Quinnster's actions, so I won't. They were terrible and nothing I can say can make them look better.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kool
He's my number one choice for scum right now.

Reasons:
I really,

really

don't like Post #50. It reads like a maf that's trying to stay low and appease the town at large, while also being opportunistic. Also, the fact that he posts 3 times in between this post and the post of Elfen's in question is highly suspicious.

He has consistently provided no information to the town about his reads. At least people like Espeonage are townhunting. Kool is doing no scum or townhunting. Sure he might say he is but if you look at the very few reads he has, he's just regurgitating other people's ideas completely. Example: Post 274 is pretty much the same as Supreme Overlord's Post #201. Basically he's done a lot of nothing the whole game.

An interesting read from a confirmed town player. In fact I noticed the exact same thing about kool, he doesn't do much except be on the lynch wagon.

This is a good stopping point for now, I will be back after the french open has finished to do more.

[The Kool]

I have given some responses to some points you raised about my early posts, namely "that's how I played until now." I know this is a lame excuse, but if you like, I can provide you with a link to my previous games, so you can meta me and see for yourself if I tell the truth. It won't be nearly as much reading as games here. I also know this is rather belated, but if it helps prove my innocence, I implore you. (Yay for obscure words!)

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

An inability to make up new reasons show that you are content to lynch whoever is the largest wagon. It simply shows a lack of scumhunting and it is very anti-town. You can agree with other people reasons, but you need to have your own reasons as well, or atleast prove the other people's reasons to yourself.

Now we have the kool/kal back and forth. I'm tempted to agree with bub on this one,

OK, I've finished reading. I can't defend Quinnster's actions, so I won't. They were terrible and nothing I can say can make them look better.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kool
He's my number one choice for scum right now.

Reasons:
I really,

really

don't like Post #50. It reads like a maf that's trying to stay low and appease the town at large, while also being opportunistic. Also, the fact that he posts 3 times in between this post and the post of Elfen's in question is highly suspicious.

He has consistently provided no information to the town about his reads. At least people like Espeonage are townhunting. Kool is doing no scum or townhunting. Sure he might say he is but if you look at the very few reads he has, he's just regurgitating other people's ideas completely. Example: Post 274 is pretty much the same as Supreme Overlord's Post #201. Basically he's done a lot of nothing the whole game.

An interesting read from a confirmed town player. In fact I noticed the exact same thing about kool, he doesn't do much except be on the lynch wagon.

On the first point, that discussion was about the points I dug up, which happened to be the same as the ones already given. I did validate them for myself by that very fact, so your point is, once again, moot.

On both of them, that may be true, but even if its not a coincidence, it doesn't mean I'm scum, just that I agreed. And I highly doubt you can call my CO vote bandwagoning by any stretch of the imagination.

[CooLskins]

This is Bub here. One thing about Hiplop's claim is that even though it does not clear SK from being scum, it does clear him from being SK (barring something to the tune of a vig and SK killing on alternating nights). I found him to be more likely scum than SK to begin with in anyway. And I belive Hiplop's claim as his actions make sense for somebody who got his result and begins to think about it. His claim was ill-timed and poorly executed, but pro-town in its intentions. I don't like panzer's hard push on him. It reads to me as scum trying to remove a power role in the day game.

Like before, I don't think Kal and Kool are scumbuds, though Kal could still be the SK (while SK himself cannot). Right now, my scumteam is Kool/SK/Panzer in roughly that order, and one of Cloud/Kal is probably the SK if there is one. That's all I've got right now.

-Bub

[LordChronos]

My reservation with Kool-scum is that his current wagon is comprised of scummy players. Right now, he's got cloud, SK, and Kalofer voting for him, and all of them are scummy.

[PJ.]

Well CO can claim now..

[CooLskins]

^at l-2? Claim fisher?

-CooLDoG

[SleepyKrew]

Sorry for disappearing, I'm here now.

[Espeonage]

Kal has expressed interest in the wagon and Panzer asked for the claim. Those are the two votes.

[PJ.]

^at l-2? Claim fisher?

-CooLDoG

I thought we were l-1, my bad.

[PJ.]

So everyone quits posting? Cool.