Open 309 - Fire and Ice [Game Over]


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:52 am

Post by Toro »

Vote: Hiraki


Something feels off to me regarding his flip-floppiness yesterday. (Going off his ISO)

Hiraki 47 wrote:SECOND WIND?

FUCK.

THIS MEANS HE CAN'T BE SCUM.

UNVOTE


To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.

Hiraki 48 wrote:EWBOP:

AND BEFORE SOMEONE GOES ON AND SAYS, "lol Hiraki he's trying to screw wit u"

SHOW ME ANOTHER GAME WHERE SOMEONE HAS GIVEN UP, AND LATER TRIED TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, AND WAS STILL SCUM.

I DARE YOU.


Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.

Hiraki 51 wrote:ROBO.

I GIVE YOU UNTIL FRIDAY 11:59 EST.

PROVE ME WRONG AGAIN.


Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.

Hiraki 52 wrote:Because.

Does it really matter?


Here he tries to brush off the reasons for him jumping off the wagon.

Hiraki 53 wrote:And I've explained the flipflopping.

If I didn't then I'd agree with you.

But I did.

I want Robo to prove to me(us) that he's town.


He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it
does
happen.

And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And
nooooow
he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.

-------------------------------

I believe the reasoning that Hiraki jumped off of the wagon was that he knew Robo would flip town and didn't want it to appear like he was the one pushing hardest for his lynch, deflecting most of the attention onto silavor, YYG, and Empking.
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am

Post by Hiraki »

Amor wrote:What do you mean by this? Why Toro in particular?
His next post proves this.

It's shitty.

And then the whole buddying thing.

It's a yucky situation.

Toro wrote:To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.
That's why I used all caps, used Fuck, and said Second Wind.

HMMM.

Toro wrote:Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.
And you didn't post a game...because?

Toro wrote:Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.
This was my only real mistake.

I highly doubt Robo was going to say anything good either.

Toro wrote:He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it does happen.
Your point?

Toro wrote:And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And nooooow he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.
Do you think I didn't want reasoning for actions of someone that I wanted to lynch?

Are you nuts.

My vote is much better here.

Unvote, Vote: Toro


Go ahead. Pull the OMGUS card. Do it.
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:48 am

Post by Kcdaspot »

okay i got back from work ready to read this game hoping to scum hunt but then i read hiraki in the last bit of D1 and it made me go "NOW WAIT ONE DAMNED MINUTE"

why in the hell did you confirm that you'd wait til friday? and then hammer on thursday saying "oh yeah i meant thursday lol"

I liked you, but now? no.

and 401 is bad..... just awful

VOTE: hiraki
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:52 am

Post by Kcdaspot »

Hiraki wrote:
Amor wrote:What do you mean by this? Why Toro in particular?
His next post proves this.

It's shitty.

And then the whole buddying thing.

It's a yucky situation.

Way to explain it there buddy


Toro wrote:To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.
That's why I used all caps, used Fuck, and said Second Wind.

HMMM.

and then you unvoted. HMMMMMMMMM


Toro wrote:Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.
And you didn't post a game...because?

Toro wrote:Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.
This was my only real mistake.

I highly doubt Robo was going to say anything good either.

Toro wrote:He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it does happen.
Your point?

Toro wrote:And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And nooooow he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.
Do you think I didn't want reasoning for actions of someone that I wanted to lynch?

Are you nuts.

My vote is much better here.

Unvote, Vote: Toro


Go ahead. Pull the OMGUS card. Do it.


I added my stuff in bold....... do i have to dissect the rest?
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:52 am

Post by Kcdaspot »

i didn't add the "unvote, vote thing" JSYK
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:00 am

Post by Nikanor »

First of all, there are multiple scum groups, so regardless of Hiraki's alignment, he couldn't have known that Robo was going to flip town.
Second of all, Hiraki's unvote had good reasoning behind it.
Thirdly, Toro's case is terrible, and he's probably scum.

Unvote. Vote: Toro.
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:12 am

Post by Robocopter87 »

Image
Although the border between madness and genius is very narrow.


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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:13 am

Post by Robocopter87 »

Ah shoot! I forgot to change the first "Jim". Ah well.

Go Town!
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:13 am

Post by Toro »

Hiraki wrote:
Toro wrote:To me, this post here doesn't feel very sincere at all with him wanting to take his vote off.


That's why I used all caps, used Fuck, and said Second Wind.

HMMM.


Most. convincing. argument. ever.

From my POV it appeared as if you were being either sarcastic about your unvote or completely insincere.

Hiraki wrote:
Toro wrote:Let's just say EMP's not the only one who has experienced this.


And you didn't post a game...because?


A.) The site where I used to play is now down.
B.) I can't do that at the moment w/o receiving some sort of punishment for it.

Hiraki wrote:
Toro wrote:Wrong...again? Prior to this you called for the hammer on Robo.


This was my only real mistake.

I highly doubt Robo was going to say anything good either.


Yet you took off your vote and planned on giving him time to defend himself (until Friday mind you.) If you highly doubted Robo could produce anything to defend himself why offer him a window of time to do so? I also find it troubling for someone who wanted to give Robo a second chance, you HAMMERED him.

Hiraki wrote:
Toro wrote:He explained the flipfloppiness with really bad reasoning, it does happen.


Your point?


You claim that having a second wind and coming back to defend yourself is strictly a town tactic, from some previous experiences of mine, it's not.

Hiraki wrote:
Toro wrote:And why the sudden change of heart? He had prior been hoping to rush D1 with the lynch of Robo, as seen in his ISO #19 (19!) And nooooow he wants a reasoning from him. This doesn't sit right with me at all.


Do you think I didn't want reasoning for actions of someone that I wanted to lynch?


Did you not try to rush the D1 lynch?

Hiraki ISO 19 wrote:I'M FEELING REALLY GOOD NOW.

LET'S GET THIS OVER WITH.


Hiraki wrote:My vote is much better here.

Unvote, Vote: Toro


Go ahead. Pull the OMGUS card. Do it.


It's OMGUS, do you have a legitimate reason for voting me?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:28 am

Post by Toro »

Nikanor wrote:First of all, there are multiple scum groups, so regardless of Hiraki's alignment, he couldn't have known that Robo was going to flip town.


Agh shit, keep forgetting that we've got two scumgroups against us. Speaking of which, what are the numbers now? 3:2 town?

Nikanor wrote:Second of all, Hiraki's unvote had good reasoning behind it.


But earlier in the day he wanted Robo dead, right then and there. The change of heart he had is scummy as hell.

Nikanor wrote:Thirdly, Toro's case is terrible, and he's probably scum.

Unvote. Vote: Toro.


Please elaborate.
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:57 am

Post by YoYoGuy435 »

Wow, I wasn't expecting to die n1. Would've thought that the scum would want to keep someone that was veiwed as somewhat scummy around. But good kill nonetheless...

Go Town!!!
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:17 am

Post by Cirno »

Official Vote Count as of post #410

Amor (1)- Empking
Hiraki (2)- Toro Kcdaspot
Toro (2)- Hiraki Nikanor

Not Voting (5)- projectmatt silavor MehPlusRawr Amor Alduskkel

The deadline for Day 2 is Sunday, June 19, 2011 at 1:34:26 AM.
If no player is lynched by that time, a no lynch will occur.

With
10
players alive, it takes
6
votes to lynch.

projectmatt is V/LA
Last edited by Cirno on Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:20 pm

Post by MehPlusRawr »

Hiraki wrote:Neither liked each other.

It really did look like a town-scum argument.

I feel good about this.


Hiraki wrote:So Yoyo didn't like Nikanor, or MehPlusRawr.

To be quite frank, I'm getting one of those really bad gut moments that will kill me in endgame over Toro.

Vote: MehPlusRawr


I'll hop that there for now.


Honestly? No, it's a "VI vs. Townie who thinks the VI's scummy argument."

Let's just look at the setup again.

Two scumteams.

LYNCHING SCUMMY TOWN IS NOT A SCUMTELL, AND ANYWAY, EVEN SCUM CAN HUNT SCUM IN THIS SETUP.

Even if I was scum, I'd sure be trying to lynch the other scum. I thought Yoyo was scum, which is pretty fucking reasonable because of his posts.

Now I think someone else is scum- what with his indecisive nature and all. (see Toro's post.)

Vote: Hiraki
I think I'm back. Mafiascum just became 20% cooler in 10 seconds flat.
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:30 pm

Post by Amor »

MehPlusRawr wrote:Honestly? No, it's a "VI vs. Townie who thinks the VI's scummy argument."

Let's just look at the setup again.

Two scumteams.

LYNCHING SCUMMY TOWN IS NOT A SCUMTELL, AND ANYWAY, EVEN SCUM CAN HUNT SCUM IN THIS SETUP.

Even if I was scum, I'd sure be trying to lynch the other scum. I thought Yoyo was scum, which is pretty fucking reasonable because of his posts.

Now I think someone else is scum- what with his indecisive nature and all. (see Toro's post.)


I agree with this as far as you/YYG goes -- there's no reason to suggest that just because one guy flips town the other is scum. But I think the setup also works against your reason (and other peoples' reasons) for voting Hiraki. I just can't see any scum motivation for Hiraki to lead the wagon on Robo, then back off at the last second, then return to hammer later, especially when scum wouldn't know Robo's alignment for sure anyway. How is indecisiveness a scumtell? If anything scum are more likely to try and act confident to avoid contradicting themselves.

At this point I think our best bet for finding scum is the quieter people on the Robo wagon. I'm going to go look at them in ISO tomorrow and probably put a vote down.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:03 pm

Post by MehPlusRawr »

Amor wrote:
MehPlusRawr wrote:Honestly? No, it's a "VI vs. Townie who thinks the VI's scummy argument."

Let's just look at the setup again.

Two scumteams.

LYNCHING SCUMMY TOWN IS NOT A SCUMTELL, AND ANYWAY, EVEN SCUM CAN HUNT SCUM IN THIS SETUP.

Even if I was scum, I'd sure be trying to lynch the other scum. I thought Yoyo was scum, which is pretty fucking reasonable because of his posts.

Now I think someone else is scum- what with his indecisive nature and all. (see Toro's post.)


I agree with this as far as you/YYG goes -- there's no reason to suggest that just because one guy flips town the other is scum. But I think the setup also works against your reason (and other peoples' reasons) for voting Hiraki. I just can't see any scum motivation for Hiraki to lead the wagon on Robo, then back off at the last second, then return to hammer later, especially when scum wouldn't know Robo's alignment for sure anyway. How is indecisiveness a scumtell? If anything scum are more likely to try and act confident to avoid contradicting themselves.

At this point I think our best bet for finding scum is the quieter people on the Robo wagon. I'm going to go look at them in ISO tomorrow and probably put a vote down.

Indecisiveness is a scumtell because
scum don't provide their genuine thoughts, they provide what will help their team the most
. Thinking "I think X!" then doing a complete 180 five minutes later and then 180ing again- that's scummy because it's extremely unlikely that someone actually feels that way.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:15 pm

Post by Hiraki »

Nice OMGUS MPR.

Especially when my case held barely any validity.

Not sure which one needs to die first.

I also don't want to say more to KCDA/Toro(c wut i did thur)'s case. I'm a bit tired.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Post by silavor »

Rereading. This makes no sense. MPR's probnotscum, no clue about Hiraki anymore.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:54 pm

Post by Kcdaspot »

Cirno wrote:
The deadline for Day 1 is Sunday, June 19, 2011 at 1:34:26 AM.



Living in the past there mod?
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:05 pm

Post by Cirno »

Kcdaspot wrote:
Cirno wrote:
The deadline for Day 1 is Sunday, June 19, 2011 at 1:34:26 AM.



Living in the past there mod?

Fixed. However, this incident will not dissuade me from using copy and paste.
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:53 pm

Post by MehPlusRawr »

Hiraki wrote:Nice OMGUS MPR.

Especially when my case held barely any validity.

Not sure which one needs to die first.

I also don't want to say more to KCDA/Toro(c wut i did thur)'s case. I'm a bit tired.

Nope.avi. An OMGUS is voting someone who voted you for no reason other than the vote. My vote on you would have been done regardless of who you had said that to.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:11 am

Post by Alduskkel »

Vote: Hiraki
L-2
Why? Hiraki said he wanted to give Robocopter until Friday. Someone else was thinking Thursday, but then Hiraki said no, he figured it should be Friday. Hiraki turns around and hammers Robocopter saying he really meant Thursday.

I call bullshit. ZERO Town motivation here. Whereas scum Hiraki will want to hammer basically anyone who isn't on his team.

Let me give you the narration here: Scum Hiraki goes for a lynch on Robocopter, but backs off because he thinks he might not be scum. Robocopter fails to produce adequate defense and Hiraki now goes back to being suspicious. Impatient, he thinks "FUCK IT" (and don't tell me you can't imagine Hiraki literally doing this) and hammers anyway, but can't explain his inconsistency.
---
@Nikanor: Why is Toro's case bad? Why is having a bad case equal to being scum?
My problem is that you're aware of the oddities that having multiple scum groups creates, but ignore the fact that terrible cases should be nulltells since both scum and town have motivation to build up strong cases against scum.
---
There's a tidbit of information in YoYoGuy's final post (410). It's likely he did not intentionally breadcrumb his role as a Doctor.

Finally, no one noticed only one nightkill? Either a scumteam nokilled (unlikely; little motivation for that here), YoYoGuy successfully protected (perhaps), or scum hit scum (most likely).

So if someone seems pretty convinced that someone else is scum for no good reason, that person might themselves be scum.
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:05 am

Post by Amor »

Aldusskel wrote:Finally, no one noticed only one nightkill? Either a scumteam nokilled (unlikely; little motivation for that here), YoYoGuy successfully protected (perhaps), or scum hit scum (most likely).

So if someone seems pretty convinced that someone else is scum for no good reason, that person might themselves be scum.


If scum hit scum we would have a dead scum, unless I'm missing something about the setup. I'm assuming it was a successful protection.

Alright, let's look at that wagon a little closer

Robocopter87 (7)- projectmatt silavor Kcdaspot Toro YoYoGuy435 Empking Hiraki


silavor, Hiraki and to a lesser extent matt all argued pretty vocally for Robo being scum, with the first two even presenting cases. I don't see those as being scummy actions. Hiraki's two-step around hammering Robo is bizarre, but I still think indecisiveness is more likely to come from town in this case, as they have less information to deal with.

With YYG being dead, that leaves Kcda, Toro and Empking.

Kcda in ISO
0-10: Lots of joking, a weird unexplained vote on Matt (possible bussing) and agreement with others. He only really seems to post to defend himself or agree with the consensus.
12: Distances self from Matt vote.
16: Asks for a pressure wagon on Hiraki. Looks kind of opportunistic.
19: Calls Matt dumb but town some more
24: His longest post of the game so far, and it's entirely about ponies
27-29: Beating the drum for the Robo wagon some more without adding any new analysis
32: Tells everyone to shut up and lynch Robo already
34: Pretty decent defense of the pressure wagon comment.
38: Says he's suspicious of emp, silavor and toro
39: Echoes Toro's vote on Hiraki.

All in all KCDA looks like active lurking scum. Lots of posts, but most of them are one-liners, and a lot of them are either jokes or calling Matt dumb but town. Finds convenient reasons to hop onto the Robo and Hiraki wagons once they've got going, despite not mentioning either as a suspect before voting them. Tries to discourage discussion a few times. Pretty freaking suspicious.

Toro in ISO
0-5: RVS and meaningless one-liners
7: Votes me for my response to the questionnaire. I think that's crap, but I might be biased.
9-12: Goes against Hiraki for not posting his wall or giving explanations.
18: Apparently Robo and Hiraki's walls have convinced him of Roboscum. Goes from voting Hiraki to voting Robo. Probably the worst post in here, as it's kind of a complete 180 from his earlier suspicions.
22-26: Pointless theory discussion.
32: Big case against Hiraki for flip-flopping earlier. This started the Hiraki wagon, so it can't really be called scummy.

Less scumposting here, although still some filler. Moderately suspicious.

LadyHaHa/Empking in ISO

LadyHaHa:
0: Shows up late, calls my answer suspicious and then votes Matt.
2: Votes Hiraki for the whole "I don't have to explain myself" thing.
4: Big post defending Robo and attacking Hiraki
5: Calls out kcda for not focusing on other players

Not many posts here, but they seem pro-town to me. The fact that LHH requested replacement shows that the lurking was probably not a strategy.

Empking:
1: Agrees with the wagons on both Robo and Hiraki without much explanation.
3: Votes Robo
5-9: Defends unexplained town reads. Says this is a meaningless theory argument in #9, but still posted a lot about it.
12-13: Defends the "third on the wagon" tell. More theory discussion.
14: Emptyquote.
15: Votes me with no explanation, still has not returned to find a reasoning.

This is kind of the opposite of the Tid/MPR slot for me: LadyHaHa's posting makes me think town, but then Empking comes in and does nothing but unexplained votes and theory discussion. Kind of hard to figure out. Will be watching Empking's future posts very carefully.

tl;dr: KCDAspot is scum, matt is quite possibly his buddy, Toro and Empking might also be scum.

vote: KCDAspot
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:23 am

Post by Empking »

Unvote

Vote: Toro
- Cpmpromise to my favourite player with votes. Hikari is really, really town.
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:24 am

Post by Toro »

Empking wrote:
Unvote

Vote: Toro
- Cpmpromise to my favourite player with votes. Hikari is really, really town.


Please elaborate. How do you view Hiraki as town?

Also reason-less bandwagoning, noted.
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Scum: 3-1
Town: 1-3
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Hiraki
Hiraki
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Hiraki
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 12372
Joined: September 16, 2010

Post Post #424 (ISO) » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:17 am

Post by Hiraki »

I'm about to rape this shit.

I've figured out everything.

Like seriously. It took me a couple minutes, but fuck.

Get ready for a rape-shit wall. Dunno when.

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