Mini 1190: Game over

hiplop · Post Post #450 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:01 pm

Im not a meta player at all, i dont like it + i'm lazy. I checked you the last night in 1170, and Sk i've played more than one game with iirc. Yeah, its based off of like 2 games, so what?

I didn't even take that into consideration, i posted my rough notes from NOTE PAD.

PJ. · Post Post #451 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:30 pm

Sample size matters. For mafia games, I would say something like at least 10 games of each town and scum to be an acceptable sample size, I would say this is still bad because most player make progress and leaern from there mistakes. By scientific standards, 20 instances would be a joke. Sample size are normally in multiple of 100 but that's just silly when it comes to mafia.

In this case, you telling me how I play as scum based on one game is like telling me I eat pizza everyday because I ate pizza last night. It's ridiculous and not a valid way of hunting scum. Trying to push a case this way is scummy because you are trying to draw attention on players based on misinformation and lead to mislynch. The more I keep talking about this, the more scummy it's making me think of you.

vollkan · Post Post #452 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:40 pm

hiplop wrote:Im not a meta player at all, i dont like it + i'm lazy. I checked you the last night in 1170, and Sk i've played more than one game with iirc. Yeah, its based off of like 2 games, so what?

I didn't even take that into consideration, i posted my rough notes from NOTE PAD.

I don't get how you can not like meta and yet be prepared to make a meta argument based off only a couple of games. Normally, not liking meta would make you even more obsessed with getting a comprehensive set of data, but here you are judging panzer based on almost nothing...

PJ. · Post Post #453 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:43 pm

I keep thinking about this and I just can't shake that this is scum motivated.

Unvote, Vote:Hiplop

Case on CC still stands.

vollkan · Post Post #454 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:20 pm

Panzerjager wrote:I keep thinking about this and I just can't shake that this is scum motivated.

Unvote, Vote:Hiplop

Case on CC still stands.

But isn't he using the meta as a towntell for you? I agree that the way he is using meta makes no sense, but I can't see the scum motivation for it (especially since he also attacked you in the post where he was using the meta)

Sundy · Post Post #455 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:27 pm

I know nobody liked the idea of a Panzerjager wagon last time, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP

: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

Hoppster: I found xvart more persuasive.
CC: Really has not redeeemed himself yet from tapering off after a strong beginning, but PJ pushing his lynch still makes me feel benovolent towards him.
Volkan: the end of number 430 slightly annoys me, when he wants to change PJs mind (even though PJ just called him town)
Toro: Seems to have disappeared

vollkan · Post Post #456 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:30 pm

Sundy wrote:
Volkan: the end of number 430 slightly annoys me, when he wants to change PJs mind (even though PJ just called him town)

A big part of this game is being able to persuade people. I can't persuade people if my scumhunting method lacks credibility. I'm not going to debate the issue (you'll notice that I haven't followed up PJ's reply), but I think I was justified in defending my playstyle there.

SleepyKrew · Post Post #457 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:46 pm

hip, we have two games together? What was the other one besides Nowhereville? Also, trying to meta me gives me the laffs.
Content with vote on Hop for now.

Hoppster · Post Post #458 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:52 pm

xvart wrote:
Hoppster, 433 wrote:I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you. You're not - you're attitude is clearly "well I don't need to bother trying because he didn't explain", which is either a terrible-town attitude or a scum attitude.

You're obviously not even trying to read what I'm helpfully laying out for you. You're basically just trying to smear me now and you're not even trying to scum-hunt.

This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

You're not reading my posts.

Hoppster wrote:I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you.

xvart wrote:
Hoppster, 433 wrote:
xvart wrote:
Hoppster, 101 wrote:Are you saying that there is no chance that Thomith is town? Pray, tell us how you know this.

This is pretty interesting in the fact that you are using the scum knowledge tell (scum know who is not scum) only you are using it backwards. You are asking how Toro knows that Thomith is scum; so unless
you think Toro is bussing Thomith
this isn't even a tell. It's backwards; and if you think he is bussing you should have been voting either of them; but at the time of this post you are voting SleepyKrew while only FoSing Toro.

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

You didn't explicity say you think Toro is bussing Thomith; but that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your statement "are you saying there is no chance that Thomith is town." You are asking Toro how he knows that Thomith is scum with the implication that he has inside information. The only way he would
know
that Thomith is scum is if he is a daycop or they are scum buddies together. Since the first isn't true they would have to be scum buddies together.

Hoppster, 433 wrote:I'm not somebody who changes his vote every time he sees what he thinks is a scum-tell, because that would be stupid. You're dropping loads, but SleepyKrew has been taking priority because he is more obvious scum. In this case, I thought it was a scum-tell and thusly pressed (yes, I'm not an idiot,
I did realise it would mean Thormith is scum as well
), but believed SleepyKrew was still likelier scum taking everything into account.

And what's up with the bolded portion of this quote (which directly follows the previous one)? You try and admonish my argument that you didn't say they were scum together but then you admit that you knew that would be the case.

You're not reading my posts.

Hoppster wrote:
xvart wrote:
you think Toro is bussing Thomith

Did I say I was not thinking the bold? No.

xvart wrote:
Hoppster, 433 wrote:
xvart wrote:Finally, what do you mean by "for town." That sounds pretty definitively that you know I am town.

Is English your first language? I was going to make a derogatory remark here, but realised that would be rash of me considering you may very well speak Albanian as your first language.

If English is your first language, you're reaaaally stretching here and I assume that native English speakers on this site (probably at least of average intelligence if not above-average) will see this.

The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

So what you are saying is anyone with above average intelligence will realize that when you said "for town" you meant "for scum or stupid-town"? That completely undermines your entire ad hominem because what you actually said and what you say you were implying do not align at all. When you said "for town" (referring to me) you were saying "for someone who is town" which looks explicitly like you know I am town. This is the inside information scumtell you incorrectly used earlier.

You're still not reading my posts.

I'm saying that you're either stupid (or possibly ESL) for thinking that actually was a scum-tell, or you're scum because you're stretching so much.

Let me explain the "for town" a bit more... umm, appropiately.

Spoiler: for town

xvart wrote:
Hoppster, 433 wrote:
Why is changing my mind scummy?

Why is feeling the need to explore my reads scummy?

Your third point is simply just wrong in all respects.

Changing your mind is not a scumtell; but the degree of your changing read and the pomp and circumstance behind the changes is a scumtell.

I don't really understand your second point or what you are asking me to respond to, but that could just be because of my poor English comprehension and my failure of basic communication skills; however, if you are asking why it is scummy for you to explore your own reads the answer is simple: there is nothing scummy with someone exploring their own reads.
(i) It is scummy the manner in which you have done so and the effort it took for you to actually say what you were trying to say.

(ii) It looks very strongly like you plopped down a long post of quotes with no explanation at all hoping I would back off just because it was a long post and long posts are always well thought out
(although it did work on your buddy Panzer since he hasn't been able to articulate anything surrounding his unvote/vote and what he actually saw).

1. Your response to this relates to #2(i).

2(i). What is scummy about not posting "I JUST REALISED TORO IS SCUM" when the thought occurs to you and instead questioning him to strengthen your read (which is to do with the effort I put into it which I don't understand how it is a scum-tell in the slightest)?

2(ii). This relates to the first quote in this post which you didn't read.

WHY THE HELL IS EVERYBODY IGNORING SLEEPYKREW

Sundy wrote:Hoppster: I found xvart more persuasive.

whaaaaaattttt

Sundy wrote:Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP
: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

You've got some good points here, so I suppose I would be kiiiiiinda receptive to a panzer wagon, but really, SleepyKrew and/or xvart are much better.

SleepyKrew wrote:hip, we have two games together? What was the other one besides Nowhereville? Also, trying to meta me gives me the laffs.
Content with vote on Hop for now.

Seriously, people need to read SleepyKrew's ISO, look at how he hasn't justified (or fail-justifies) his votes, and then vote him.

SleepyKrew · Post Post #459 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:56 pm

Hoppster is getting angwy.

PJ. · Post Post #460 (ISO) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:03 pm

Sundy wrote:I know nobody liked the idea of a Panzerjager wagon last time, but I thought I would bring it up again.

Number 378: Requests self-vig from someone who would prove they are telling the truth by performing this vig
Number 386: Says that Elfen replacement cannot change what Elfen did, even though earlier he said that there is no real evidence either way on Elfen
Number 395: Votes xvart saying, "did not even notice all that." notice what!? Hoppster made a long defensive post that basically reiterated what he already posted, so what new is there to gain? Called out on this by SK and Xvart, gives weak defense
Number 447: FOS on Hiplop with some weird views on meta & sample sizes

TO SUM UP
: did anyone really follow his train of thought with the votes on Xvart, CC, and now Hiplop??

1) Empking suggested the self-vig first. I went with it. That sorts out those fake vig claims really quick, especially from a player as scummy as Toro.
2) I don't like replacements in general. They are a necessary but heavy burden. Elfen was straight unreadable because he was an idiot. I don't care if fucking Yosarian or Glork replace in, they aren't gonna make Elfen less of an idiot, even if they play the straight up townest game one can play. The spot is still tainted. And If we choose to clear the idiocy, we could be giving the scum a pass and the game. This is an awkward view, but (since you are on about meta too) meta me. I think PBuG and most other players who have played with me(which is still most the game) can attest to the fact that I hold replacement spots as far more scummy then regular spots. Most people that replace out are either caught scum or someone who never showed up in the beginning. Also, we established that Toro should be shooting Jakesh.
3) I don't think those are weird views. You can't predict behavior based on such a small sample size. If I get in a fight when I'm drunk, it's unfair to assume I always fight when i'm drunk based on one incident. Why do you think psychologist use samples of 100s even 1000s in their studies? Because 1 incident doesn't mean there is a correalation. Also didn't we go over the weird=/=scummy thing before(this applies to 2 and 3)?

Also, is tunneling the only thing you stop lurking to do?

Captain Corporal · Post Post #461 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:02 am

Sorry, everyone. I only really get on in bursts, 24 hours apart. I WAS going to post my case today, but I had unexpected visitors. I sincerely apologize. I'm on that mobile device again, but it doesn't have the capabilities to write a case. I will answer any questions shot at me in the next few hours, but then I will be V/LA until late Sunday/Monday.

After that a bit of normality will return to my posts.

SleepyKrew · Post Post #462 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:05 am

Show us your notes.

Captain Corporal · Post Post #463 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:25 am

*cough* Notes? I haven't kept notes in any of my games. This may sound really stupid, and it is, but I'm working on changing it.

Even if I had any notes, I can't get to a computer to access them.

Although, I'll give you my scummiest reads.
Toro: Strong scumread. I have many mixed opinions on your vig claim, and I'm still not sure what to make of it. Everything else before it is scummy. And you know what they say. If it sounds like scum, looks like scum, and smells like scum, it's probably scum.
Sundy: I have no idea why, but right now I have a weak scumread on you. But that could be the tiredness talking. Either way, I need to ISO you.

Xvart seems good.
Vollkan seems good.
Noname seems good.
Panzer is interesting, but tht's probably just because he's (or was) pressuring me.

Captain Corporal · Post Post #464 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:54 am

Whoops. Noname isn't in this game. Wrong thread >_> That's why I shouldn't post at night.

SleepyKrew · Post Post #465 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:45 am

Captain Corporal wrote:I have been keeping a few notes on people

Lynch All Liars
But I still think Hop is scum. What to do?

Sundy · Post Post #466 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:28 am

Panzerjager wrote:2) I don't like replacements in general. They are a necessary but heavy burden. Elfen was straight unreadable because he was an idiot. I don't care if fucking Yosarian or Glork replace in, they aren't gonna make Elfen less of an idiot, even if they play the straight up townest game one can play. The spot is still tainted. And If we choose to clear the idiocy, we could be giving the scum a pass and the game. This is an awkward view, but (since you are on about meta too) meta me. I think PBuG and most other players who have played with me(which is still most the game) can attest to the fact that I hold replacement spots as far more scummy then regular spots. Most people that replace out are either caught scum or someone who never showed up in the beginning. Also, we established that Toro should be shooting Jakesh.
3) I don't think those are weird views. You can't predict behavior based on such a small sample size. If I get in a fight when I'm drunk, it's unfair to assume I always fight when i'm drunk based on one incident. Why do you think psychologist use samples of 100s even 1000s in their studies? Because 1 incident doesn't mean there is a correalation. Also didn't we go over the weird=/=scummy thing before(this applies to 2 and 3)?

Also, is tunneling the only thing you stop lurking to do?

I don't think there's any connection whatsoever between Elfen being an idiot and the slot being scum. You said he was "unreadable" and now the slot is forever tainted? Why??? Being a bad player does not make the slot scum or town. And I'm not trying to give his replacement a pass, I'm just saying it wasn't a good idea for you to call for him being vigged based on nothing. It was a bad idea and it may have been anti-town.

Why are you asking me to meta you for your view of replacements when you were JUST saying how meta was so impossible? And yes, it's weird to apply scientific standards of hundreds of games, because Mafia isn't really like that. And no, weirdness alone doesn't make you scummy, your other actions do. Also your contradictions on when meta is and is not appropriate to use.

I am definitely not lurking, PJ, and I am not really tunneling you either. I've voted 2 people since I voted you. I just keep on commenting on you because you keep on doing things that strike me as off.

Hoppster: an example of why xvart is more convincing: You padded your post with a million examples like Madonna and The Simpsons, but you kind of missed the point. You didn't say "if you're town, you'll feel blah blah blah," you said "for town, you'll feel blah blah blah." The lack of an If is key, and I think it's telling you inserted If into your defense, and said it was interchangeable when it is not.

After xvart/hoppster, I feel a little like I did after empking/toro. Both not scum, maybe both town, slightly more likely to be xvart/empking as town.

Volkan, the thing that ticked me is you quoted a post saying you were town and said something to the effect of "let me change your mind." obviously I know you meant to refer to the other part you quoted, I just found it amusing.

I'll look over SK later. A concisely stated case would as always be most appreciated.

xvart · Post Post #467 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:38 am

Hoppster, 458 wrote:
xvart wrote:This is laughable since you are accusing me of "not trying" and while you do the absolute bare minimum to try and disprove my suspicions.

You're not reading my posts.

Again, you have not explain how I am not reading your posts or why you believe I am not reading your posts. Please do so because just repeating how I am not reading your posts over and over again with no supporting evidence is scummy. After I pushed my case on you did you or did you not make a response post that was labeling my case for me and showing the rest of the players your ISO with which of my case points was relevant to which of your posts? Please explain to us how this is a defense, since it seems quite the opposite (you enhancing my case).

Hoppster wrote:"For town" - the following only applies if you are town (fairly interchangeable with "if you're town")

This seems to be the main thing you're struggling to understand. Imagine an old man saying "For me, playing chess is fun!"

He's not saying playing chess is fun for everybody. He's saying it's fun for him. In other words, it only applies if you are him.

Or a TV advert with Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen saying "For us, L'Oreal is the only hair product we will use!"

They're not saying it's the only hair product that anybody uses, it means that it's the only hair product that they specifically will use. It only applies if you are them. (And then the wannabes out there who want to be just like them will then strive to use only L'Oreal.)

Now imagine an advert starring Homer Simpson, advertising a new DVD boxset. He says "For all true Simpsons fans, there's no superior Christmas present!"

Your examples hold no weight. The point in contention is the proper noun (Homer Simpson, Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen, or me as the case may be); not what they are saying that follows. In each of your examples, it cannot be argued that when you said "For Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen" you meant for "two people

other than

Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen" just like you can't argue that when you said "For town" (for someone who is town) you meant "For someone who is either scum or an idiot." Everything that follows is irrelevant to the argument (whether it be preferred make up, Christmas presents, or enjoyment of chess).

If you were meaning to say "for someone who is likely town" or "someone who might be town" you should have said that because what you said definitively identifies me as town. It's what we call a scumslip since only scum would know definitively that I am town. Furthermore, the fact that you attempted to use examples and logic (incorrectly) further identifies you as scum because you attempting to undermine me (and my methods) and not defending or excusing the behavior. "town" =/= "scum or idiot" in any language, ESL or otherwise. The biggest problem you have with this whole issue is that you can't use the excuse "I was typing too fast and meant 'for someone who is likely town' or 'for someone who might be town'" because you have backed yourself into a corner and neither of those excuses would hold any weight given your expressed suspicion of me.

Hoppster wrote:In fact, I already explained that but of course you didn't read it:
Hoppster wrote:The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town. (You'd have to be stupid-town to attack me without reading my posts, paticularly when I have commented that you need to start reading my posts.)

I did read it; but all of your "explanations", when finally provided, are not sound and appear to me to be taking posts out of context or out of their timeline. I'll explain in more detail later today.

Twistedspoon · Post Post #468 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:06 am

Votecount1.12

Did you know: Chewing gum while peeling onions will keep you from crying

Sleepykrew(2) - Hoppster, Toro
Empking(1) - Jakesh97
Hiplop(2) - Empking, Vollkan, Panzerjager
Jakesh(2) - PBuG, sundy
Hoppster(2) - Xvart, Sleepykrew
thomith(1) - Hiplop

Not Voting (2) - Captain Corporal, Thomith

With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch, 6 to no lynch.
The deadline is 6th July GMT 08:00[/b][/color][/size]

Jakesh has been prodded again :/

hiplop · Post Post #469 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:20 am

vollkan wrote:
hiplop wrote:Im not a meta player at all, i dont like it + i'm lazy. I checked you the last night in 1170, and Sk i've played more than one game with iirc. Yeah, its based off of like 2 games, so what?

I didn't even take that into consideration, i posted my rough notes from NOTE PAD.

I don't get how you can not like meta and yet be prepared to make a meta argument based off only a couple of games. Normally, not liking meta would make you even more obsessed with getting a comprehensive set of data, but here you are judging panzer based on almost nothing...

I didn't make an argument about it though, i mentioned it quickly in one of my reads. The main things i was looking at were his posts, hes blowing things out of proportion.

SK im sure ive played another game with you. I think i replaced in near the end in it

xvart · Post Post #470 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:15 am

I'll try and be more concise about my suspicions of you and your interactions with Toro. When his wagon was building (4 votes) you built up a big post and slap down a huge (literally and figuratively) FoS on Toro. It should be noted (detailed below) that this was the first time you started thinking that he might just be "idiot town", but everything in your post suggests otherwise. Then the wagon/pressure died down a little and you slotted him in the arrogant town category, supposedly aligning with your unspoken observation in your first FoS post that we are just supposed to take your word for. Then, when Toro is dancing around the L-1/L-2 threshold you bust out another big post asking Toro to claim with mafia 101 information about how town don't lie.

The whole point is you are on the wagon when it gaining momentum, off the wagon when it is losing momentum, and explain how you were unsure using information that is unconfirmable. For example:

Hoppster - When you finally defended yourself you included this annotation about this post:

Hoppster, 433 wrote:It is slightly relevant to [2] because it's when I first began to think that Toro might just be an idiot (expanded on later).

The problem is nothing in your post really suggests that you think Toro might be "an idiot." To me, it looks like a full blown suspicion. You said you expanded on your "idiot suspicion" later but you only expanded on it when you said Toro was "arrogant-and-oh-so-wrong-in-sooooooooooooooooooooooo-many-respects-town". It should also be noted that you are using the "scum or idiot town read" as a scape goat for not voting a little too frequently.

Scum motivated behaviors you have exhibited:

Changing reads that coincide with wagon momentum;
Attacking the attacker and not the attack;
Justifying actions after the fact with information not available and unprovable;
Knowing someone's town alignment;
Directing a possible vig kill to a single individual; and,
Mismatched suspicions and voting (debatable).

xvart · Post Post #471 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:20 am

Hoppster wrote:The gist is, by saying "for town" I am probably (indeed I am in this context) accusing you of being scum or stupid-town.

Seriously, this defense against him knowing I'm town is worth lynching alone.

Sundy · Post Post #472 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:26 am

unvote, vote: Hoppster

hiplop · Post Post #473 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:35 am

Hoppster is starting to look scum, but i cant get over the town read i got on him from earlier on :\

Empking · Post Post #474 (ISO) » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:46 am

hiplop wrote:Hoppster is starting to look scum, but i cant get over the town read i got on him from earlier on :\

If I wasn't already voting him this post would have convinced me to.