Mini 1190: Game over

[vollkan]

Which of the main points against him (or his slot) do you consider most convincing?

[SleepyKrew]

He failmetad. Then he didn't really do anything after that...

[vollkan]

He failmetad. Then he didn't really do anything after that...

Just a few posts ago (535) your position was:

If it comes to it, I'd join the hip wagon. But I'd much prefer Hop.

And 538:

Nothing has changed. But now volkan should vote Hop.

Now, with nothing said by either Hip or Hop in the interim, you change to Hip. What changed?

Sleepy+5

[xvart]

Despite all the scumtells I believe Hoppster to have committed over the course of the last few RL days Panzer has been giving me scummy vibes with his overall behavior. Nothing concrete but just a little bit here and there. It's a strange dichotomy because ever since I accused Hoppster and Panzer of being scum together Panzer has started behaving differently. I am having contradictory reads because I felt/feel that if Hoppster is scum Panzer must be scum with him; but recently with Panzer's behavior I feel that if Panzer is scum then Hoppster might be town. Coupled with my misread of Hoppsters point that I discussed already I feel that maybe I should back away and look at the forest and not a single tree. I'll give more details on the contradiction later but I need to ask Hoppster a few things prior to doing so.

Hoppster

, putting everything aside for the moment, I would like to know your feelings on the following post:

Panzer - you certainly haven't done much the last couple of pages to alleviate your connection to Hoppster upon his scum flip.

But if he flips town, does that make me more town and you more scum?

You say you are town, so what are your feelings about this post?

[xvart]

Meant to unvote while I look/wait.

UNVOTE:

[Twistedspoon]

[q

Votecount1.15

Did you know: The best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup?

Sleepykrew(2) - Hoppster, Toro
Empking(1) - TheFool
Hiplop(4) - Empking, Vollkan, Panzerjager, Sleepykrew
TheFool(1) - PBuG
Hoppster(2) - Sundy, Hiplop

Not Voting (3) - Captain Corporal, Thomith, Xvart


With 13 Alive it takes 7 to lynch, 6 to no lynch.
The deadline is 6th July GMT 08:00[/b]

[/size]

[Empking]

Twisted: The Fool isn't in the VC

Pbug: Stop wasting your vote.

ta

[SleepyKrew]

This is very dull theory-talk. Will someone please do something exciting, like contribute to a bandwagon?

[vollkan]

This is very dull theory-talk. Will someone please do something exciting, like contribute to a bandwagon?

Sleepy-5

As a matter of playstyle I hate wagonning, but fair enough...

[PJ.]

Despite all the scumtells I believe Hoppster to have committed over the course of the last few RL days Panzer has been giving me scummy vibes with his overall behavior. Nothing concrete but just a little bit here and there. It's a strange dichotomy because ever since I accused Hoppster and Panzer of being scum together Panzer has started behaving differently. I am having contradictory reads because I felt/feel that if Hoppster is scum Panzer must be scum with him; but recently with Panzer's behavior I feel that if Panzer is scum then Hoppster might be town. Coupled with my misread of Hoppsters point that I discussed already I feel that maybe I should back away and look at the forest and not a single tree. I'll give more details on the contradiction later but I need to ask Hoppster a few things prior to doing so.

Hoppster

, putting everything aside for the moment, I would like to know your feelings on the following post:

Panzer - you certainly haven't done much the last couple of pages to alleviate your connection to Hoppster upon his scum flip.

But if he flips town, does that make me more town and you more scum?

You say you are town, so what are your feelings about this post?

So no actual answer? Essentially your entire case on me being scum is, "If Hoppster is scum, I'm scum" and now your casting this net of suspicion on me saying I've been acting different and if I'm scum hoppster's town. Is the vice versa true as well or are you just blowing smoke up everyone's ass?

Also, I've had suspicion on me for quite a long time(Hi, Sundy), so why would I act differently based on your post that I don't even fully read(I skim them)? Lately I've been skimming both you and hoppster's post. Wall's are annoying and usually convoluted and the gist I'm getting is you're saying "Look gais, he's scum because 123456" and Hoppster is saying "Hi Gais, this is where I have previously mentioned 123456. LOLOLOLOL He's not reading my posts, see gais". I still think one of the two of you are scum, but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum. My vote will stay there, and unless you want more of a case from me, gonna make a more compelling case on hoppster(or a new target), or actually want to build a case on me, I don't really have much to add.

[SleepyKrew]

Wall's are annoying

Also:

but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum.

?

[TheFool]

Hey, this has been an interesting game so far. Skimmed it a couple times, here's some random thoughts on the game state.

- Miller claim is a null tell. Not sure why it got that much discussion.
- The previous talk about having the vig off himself is silly, and the talk of directing his kill is pretty bad too. If he's scum he won't listen, if he's town I'd rather him make his own choice anyway.
- The current Hiplop wagon is pretty bad, but that's probably because I get a strong town read from Elfen.
- Hoppster's a better choice; he comes out looking pretty bad in the xvart/Hopp thing, though those posts are seriously hard to read, guys.
- CC's post #25 makes me twitch, and his whole ISO is pretty lurktastic.
- Beyond that, Panzer and Sleepy would round out my suspect list.
- Hope PBug and Toro come back..

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hoppster

These vote tag dealies are pretty cool.

[SleepyKrew]

Why do you not hope Thomith and jake come back?
Would you be willing to hammer hip?
What gave you a townread on Elf?

[TheFool]

Didn't even realize Thomith was missing, I was just going by prods. And I am Jake now..

Not really, no. If we're talking 'only viable wagon minutes before deadline, choosing between Hip and no-lynch', then sure, but there are numerous better options I'd rather persue.

While Elf's play was all over the place, it didn't seem all that scum-motivated so much as confused. In addition to that, ISOs 30 and 31 suggest that Elfen knew what the Town win-con was, and ISO 34 suggests that it wasn't from the opening post. While this could no doubt be a ploy, Elfen doesn't honestly seem that.. intricate. A brief meta of his other games helps confirm this. He also links to another site he played on in one of them, confirming that he comes from a mafia metagame far different than the one here. (the game he linked to does not have the town pm in the opening post)

All in all, it's a huge stretch for me to read Elfen as scum.

[Sundy]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Ditto Thomith.
@Mod: prod on Thomith?
@Mod: can you add asterisks to the opening post to indicate prods, as promised?

I still think one of the two of you are scum, but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum. My vote will stay there, and unless you want more of a case from me, gonna make a more compelling case on hoppster(or a new target), or actually want to build a case on me, I don't really have much to add.

Is the other Hiplop Hoppster? I thought you were under the impression he had acted fairly scummily...

[PJ.]

Wall's are annoying

Also:

but I'm much more convinced that one of the one Hiplop's in the game are scum.

?

walls are annoying...pretty self explanatory. Walls of Text are annoying. Xvart posts in walls. Walls are long, grueling reads.

Also you should read the whole sentence.

I still think

one of the two of you are scum

, but I'm much more convinced that

one of the one Hiplop's in the game

are scum"

One of the two(Xvart and Hoppster) are most likely scum because of the way they've gone after each other. I'm not compelled by Xvart's arguement. I'm sure one of the one hiplop's in the game(only one person in the game named hiplop, 1 of 1)is scum. It was a clever way to word, "I think hiplop is scum, far more than hopp.

Opinions on The Fool: Picking up where jakesh left off and justs on a wagon in a scummy fashion while going with kinda popular scumreads. No real reasons.

FoS:The Fool

Trying to fit in and wagonning in a scummy way.

[PJ.]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Way to pat him on the back for something I said 2 or 3 pages ago.

[PJ.]

It was actually 5 pages ago.

[Sundy]

Welcome TheFool. I think you are seriously right about Captain Corporal, who has earned a big red star next to his name until he comes back and actually contributes. He is looking worse every day tbqh. Give me 24 hours and I would be more than happy to bandwagon the crap out of him.

Way to pat him on the back for something I said 2 or 3 pages ago.

You seemed a lot more desperately-trying-to-find-scum-elsewhere at the time. Now your ISO seems plausible!

Here is my categorization of players in the order of which I would not like to lynch them, as I am bored right and waiting until it gets later until I can go out to the bar.

TOWN:

Sundy

CLEARED FOR LYNCH UNTIL MORE INFO POPS UP:

Empking, Toro

SEEMED TRUSTWORTHY BUT WHERE DID THEY GO?:

PBuG

SEEM TRUSTWORTHY BUT CANNOT BE TOO CAUTIOUS:

Xvart, Vollkan

TRENDING TOWN UNLESS I CHANGE MY MIND:

Panzerjager, Sleepykrew

WTF? NO REAL REASON NOT TO LYNCH:

TheFool, Hiplop

SERIOUSLY GONNA KILL YOU IF YOU DO NOT COME BACK:

Captain Corporal, Thomith

LYNCH:

Hoppster

I hope this list does not make me look stupid once all is revealed.

[TBuG]

Hey guys, sorry for vanishing, things came up offline but I'm back and will catch up pronto. ^_^

[Thomith]

Sorry for going inactive will catch up asap.

[Thomith]

reading through what i missed.

#441 goodposting by hiplop here, seems town to me although i use it it seems meta is a bad way to get a read on someone so i am going to stop.

#447 is basicly the reason why meta is bad although dont understand the FOS on hiplop at the point in time however pan explains it in a later post which helps me understand the FOS.

Im not a meta player at all, i dont like it + i'm lazy.

if you dislike meta why did you use it in that point in time?

#451 is again an explanation of why meta is bad.

Volkan: the end of number 430 slightly annoys me, when he wants to change PJs mind (even though PJ just called him town)

so this is scummy or not?

Hoppster's #458 is good posting and Sk's response to it seems like a scum/null tell.

#460 when is self-vig ever a good thing? do you think it is/ if you dont why did you go along with it?

#462 by SK is just wow. I dont know what to say about this other than it is very bad.

But I still think Hop is scum.

why?

i cant get over the town read i got on him from earlier on :\

scummy= scummy no matter how good the person was looking if they do something really scummy then they are scummy.

#491 is just a vote, huh? if you are going to change votes at least have some sort of reasoning or it looks random.

#502 is good posting by hoppster again, dont understand why some people think he is scum.

#514 seems weird but null, Scum Motivation- saving a partner Town Motivation- trying to save a town read, this post's meaning is probably the latter.

from the re-read hiplop and SK seem the scummiest with hiplop given a slight edge. VOTE: hiplop SK i have my eye on you.

[xvart]

So no actual answer? Essentially your entire case on me being scum is, "If Hoppster is scum, I'm scum" and now your casting this net of suspicion on me saying I've been acting different and if I'm scum hoppster's town. Is the vice versa true as well or are you just blowing smoke up everyone's ass?

I have an answer for you but, as I said, I'm waiting for Hoppster to respond to my question about your post. As I said the reads are contradictory and it something I'm trying to work out, but I need Hoppster's input first.

Also, I've had suspicion on me for quite a long time(Hi, Sundy), so why would I act differently based on your post that I don't even fully read(I skim them)?

You've had second hand suspicion but not really. You've had I think one vote on you the entire game so don't try and make the level of suspicion more than it actually was. I do have to say though that you seem a little rattled by this turn of events.

While Elf's play was all over the place, it didn't seem all that scum-motivated so much as confused. In addition to that, ISOs 30 and 31 suggest that Elfen knew what the Town win-con was, and ISO 34 suggests that it wasn't from the opening post. While this could no doubt be a ploy, Elfen doesn't honestly seem that.. intricate. A brief meta of his other games helps confirm this. He also links to another site he played on in one of them, confirming that he comes from a mafia metagame far different than the one here. (the game he linked to does not have the town pm in the opening post)

I agree with this. Elfen was obvious town in my opinion, just based on what he tried to do and scum wouldn't do that, especially new scum, unless he was prompted to do it pre game by his partners; but again it seems awfully risky putting the execution of that in Elfen's hands especially when it risks a modkill. Scum wouldn't do that.

[Hoppster]

Please note: this is an xvart-free post. If you wish to skip the xvart-Hoppster walls,

don't skip this post

, because it's not an xvart-Hoppster wall. My next post will have responses to xvart.

WHY IS SLEEPYKREW NOT BEING VOTED BY ANYBODY

(myself and Toro aside)


Look at his ISO. Look at his voting record. Look how he frequently hops onto forming wagons generally going with the momentum. Look at how he either does not justify or fail-justifies his votes.

Can you concisely state why SK is scum using analysis and evidence? Or anyone else that we should vote besides yourself?

Seriously, people need to read SleepyKrew's ISO, look at how he hasn't justified (or fail-justifies) his votes, and then vote him.

Or alternatively see my slightly different phrasing just above.

If you look at Hoppster and his stance on PJ, you will say that he rules out a PJ lynch at first, and later says he is more open to the possibility. What do you think of that????

*headdesk*

You made a good case (with good points), I agreed with it (implicitly retracting my previous town-read).

Hoppster: Vote Hiplop if you want to live.

BUT SLEEPYKREW IS SUCH OBVIOUS SCUM

IT HURTS TO VOTE ELSEWHERE

Willing to settle for Hiplop at deadline, but REAAALLLY SleepyKrew is a MUUUCH better lynch.

EVERYBODY PLZ VOTE SLEEPYKREW KTHX

[Hoppster]

The below post

is

an xvart wall.

I'm trying to see if you bother trying to work out what I'm showing you.

As I have explained, this isn't a sufficient response for me

because

in your original long string of posts when no commentary you labeled it all according to what I was accusing you of. If anything, this should have been proof that I did read what you were saying since everything I was accusing you of was labeled in each of your posts. It took you a while later to actually provide a rebuttal of why my interpretation was wrong.

I didn't label it according to what you were accusing me of, I was labelling my posts as to what

dealt

with your points. Admittedly in hindsight some of them are a bit unrealistic of me to expect you to have got, but there are certainly some that, paticularly given my labelling, you should have been able to identify what I was showing.

IT IS ENTIRELY RELEVANT TO READ PAST THE "FOR X" PART

No, everything after the "for town" part is irrelevant because that is the only part I was originally arguing: the knowledge of someone's alignment that only scum would know. The behavior afterwards is inconsequential because you identified me as someone who was definitively town in the first two words of your post.

asdfkgjskdsds

You didn't even read my post, did you?

I am completely lost as to how to explain this now, because I have made it simple, step-by-step, given relevant examples, and you still miss it.

Given the context of the whole sentence (as shown clearly in my several examples) the "For X" does not mean the sentence is necessarily directed solely at X.

"For X, doing Y would be Z" means that the person(s) being addressed are either:

1. X and Z (as they do Y)
   
2. X but not Z (as they do not do Y)
   
3. Not X (may or may not be Z)

In this example, X is town, Y is not reading my posts yet still attacking me, Z is stupid.

If that doesn't clarify it, you can lynch me based on these stupid, awful semantics that are just completely wrong, because I'm not going to defend myself anymore from it. I've made it perfectly clear, and you're basically saying "NUH-UH".

Mafia One-Shot Vigilante is a normal role. I think it's safer if we tie Toro to a certain specific target, whether that be himself or a lurker. (I'd prefer it to be himself, seeing as lurkers can be replaced.)

I think I've seen one mafia vig and it was a large them (I think). I highly doubt there is a mafia one shot vig in a mini normal all things considered. And the directing a vig kill to a single person is highly scummy due to the influence scum have in the night actions.

The only thing that could even be construed as justified suspicion here would be if you believe that I am scum and my faction has a Redirector or Bus Driver, with both being explicity non-Normal.

Or perhaps if I have full setup knowledge and know every single person's role.

A hypothetical scum roleblocker DOES NOT mean directing the vig shot is scummy, AS THEY CAN ROLEBLOCK REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE SHOT IS DIRECTED OR NOT

AND THEN I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ELSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY THINK IS SCUMMY

You accuse me of not reading because you have a different interpretation of what you said than what you actually said? Where did you say anything about a roleblocker in your first response? This is another example of you justifying something after the fact with evidence that was not originally stated. What you said originally is completely different than your annotations in blue. The whole point is if there is a RBer they know if the single individual set to be killed is on their team or not. When it is not directed, they do not know if the target is going to be their team or not. Even if they don't have a RBer they can influence the kill during the day to someone who is town and say "welp, at least we got rid of a town lurker." Giving scum advanced knowledge of specific night actions only helps scum and not town because they have more information about night actions to begin with.

Oh. My. Fricking Days.

YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS

What I said earlier, pre-emptive annotations added in blue

Given the ridiculous nature of your attacks, I felt that you would bring up the roleblocker as it's the one bit I didn't address beforehand (as I thought it obvious, but eh). Perhaps a poor choice of words in 'annotations' (addendum strikes me as a better alternative in hindsight), but that is it.

The thing is, the whole thing about scum deciding whether to Roleblock Toro is great and all if he is town.

Do we know he is town?

No, we do not.

However, if we are to assume that he is town, then really, there's no issue. As ridiculous an assumption as it is, if we assume he is town and we direct his vig-shot which is resultingly blocked, using not dissimilar logic to yours we can just assume the vig target was scum and lynch it (as it would be counter-productive for scum to roleblock Toro to prevent town Player X from dying only to have that player mislynched the next day).

Giving Toro-scum free reign is ridiculous, as he could perfectly justify an Empking-vig (having been suspicious of him), but really, that would be a stupid vig-shot. I do not trust Toro to choose his target, and even Toro-town could still vig Empking (as the suspicious would be genuine - it may even be more likely this way).

The issue I had imagined you were going to bring up was "well if he gets roleblocked then we won't know whether he's lying or not" or something to that effect.


This post is just complete junk.

Number One I have dealt with several, several times now. Each time you refuse to read what I'm saying. Maybe you're looking at the words, but you certainly aren't reading them.

Number Two is not a scum-tell.

Number Three I have dealt with in this post.

I'm fine with a lurker vig provided we tie down Toro to a specific shot.

This goes back to the directing vig kill argument. You are fine with a vig shooting

any lurker

but you want it tied down to a specific lurker for what purpose? Why does it matter which lurker he shoots if you are fine with generalized lurker kill?

We give him the option of two lurkers. If Toro is scum and one of the lurkers is scum, all he has to do is shoot the one who is not scum. I'd much rather not get into WIFOMic situations like that and that is avoided completely by directing the shot.

And who did you consider a lurker at that point in the game?

1joe60, jakesh. To a certain extent, looking at the posts, I actually had (still have? :/) relatively few posts (disregarding people who had replaced in), although I think I have provided substantial content. I was slightly worried Toro would be able to vig me and then be able to justify it the next day as a lurker vig-shot.