Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Acronach]

...this is fucked up.

gonna take some time to think about what could be going on as far as the sleepy defense thing. i'll post tomorrow. if you want to see what he was directly referring to with the VI thing read this game from d3 on.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17550

[Beck]

This is where you vote Sleepykrew, and it implies the same thing. Your argument requires achro to be scum therefore you should be voting achro if you actually believe what you're saying. You aren't, therefore you don't.

Let me explain something about mafia, which anyone who has played more than 1 game should already know

If you suspect Player A and Player B to be scum, and Player B is defending Player A by calling him a VI and whatever else, you don't prove your theory by lynching player A, because player A could actually be town. You lynch Player B because he is the one actually defending somebody and you would learn more from his flip than you would from a flip of Player A

but this is all irrelevant, you need to go back to your 2nd serious vote of the game and vote Yank. We can argue over the Sleepy/Arco/subs love triangle day 2

[Beck]

...this is fucked up.

gonna take some time to think about what could be going on as far as the sleepy defense thing. i'll post tomorrow. if you want to see what he was directly referring to with the VI thing read this game from d3 on.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17550

lol Sleepy, every post you made in that game you had a new vote, wtf

[Beck]

Acro, that is a horrible example anyway cause you were town and he was scum, if he was town also than maybe I would hold more stock in it and he defends you in that game also, granted you are outed as a doc already.

[subgenius]

Arco, why are you going out of your way to bolster Sleepy's VI accusation? It's really bizarre.

Regardless, I'm not all that interested in whether or not Sleepy had a valid reason for calling Acro a VI. I'm interested in why he felt it was necessary to excuse Arco's refusal to vote in the first place.

[Acronach]

...this is fucked up.

gonna take some time to think about what could be going on as far as the sleepy defense thing. i'll post tomorrow. if you want to see what he was directly referring to with the VI thing read this game from d3 on.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17550

lol Sleepy, every post you made in that game you had a new vote, wtf

fake post restriction ftw XD

it's not meant to be an example of us defending eachother, its meant to show you why sleepy is calling me a VI. obviously i'm not, but i'm showing you why he would have that impression. if i was maf and he was town, i would've just shut up and tried to get him lynch for it, but i'm town, and i'm interested in weather or not sleepy is town. honestly, i can see where hes coming from in both cases as far as the defending me is concerned, and that was more of a "voting vs. not voting" debate rather than a "lynch acro or dont lynch him" debate. i don't think he was defending me, but rather he was defending the idea that voting when you don't have a strong FOS on anyone in particular is anti-town.

i know defending him makes us look like scumbuddies. although he may be scum, i'm not. sleepy is in no way clear, i am in no way clear. i would be happy to take one for the town and be the first lynch, but i hope it doesn't come to that.

[Da Koolzzy]

Alright, this head is going to do something he hopes he doesn't become infamous for: skimreads. Basically, what I think up to this point without detailed rereads yet. We'll see how it stands up.

Sleepy I see leaning town. I get the impression he plays differently as town and maf, and he is playing quite similarly to how he did last game, where I happened to know all along that he was town.
Beck seems to me to be trying to sit back and enjoy the show. He has contributed some though, and his lighthearted tone seems way to risky for a mafia or third party. I think he's probably town that needs to buckle down.
Subs seems to be keeping partly to himself, but he is definitely trying to get peoples' stances on things. Applause for him. Null read.
Corporal Spoon is leaning town in my mind, though not very much. He's got several tics that fairly well negate it.
Ivan seems to be trying to deflect votes away from sleepy...?
ICEninja seems to have a solid head on his shoulders, but that means nothing. He has been way too quiet so far to get a read on.
Greymarble has one silly post. Lurker! Possibly trying to avoid attention, not hard in a game of 13. Likely 3rd party.
rblinker has few posts, but with seeming reason. They have all been about mafia theory, however, not about the game, once we were out of RVS. Rblinker, please focus here and contribute something.
Tommy has been contributing in his own way, but my memory(which is faulty, its true) wants to say not very effectively. A quick check proves my memory indeed faulty, though if there is anything I learned from my last game, it is that pro-town play =/= town. We'll see with him, once he gets pressure in his turn.
Yank: Something fishy going on here, not sure what. I do agree that pressure was let up too soon, though continued pressure may have confirmed the already gained read, part of me thinks not.
Acro seems to be pulling a fair bit of emotion, and maybe flailing some/ He uses the 'Duh! You guys are morons' approach a lot. That last comment about taking one for the team could be from a town mindset, but is far more often used as scum trying to bluff their way into the town. Leaning scum on this guy, I'll have to analyze him more later.
ConfidAnon has also been fairly quiet. Lets see what he thinks of Acro, and why he should be lynched, then we'll see.

[subgenius]

if i was maf and he was town...

Any argument that begins this way is almost guaranteed to be WIFOM and useless.

i don't think he was defending me, but rather he was defending the idea that voting when you don't have a strong FOS on anyone in particular is anti-town.

I strongly disagree with this interpretation. He was discussing his position on non-voting in the context of Captain Spoon getting on your case. Otherwise, he wouldn't have suggested that CS ignore the issue since you in particular are supposedly a VI. He was not involved in a game theory discussion, he was involved in a "get off of Acro's case" discussion.

Here are examples of SK specifically talking about you, not theory:

RVS is OVER. Acro did the right thing not slapping on a vote.

Like I said, RVS is OVER. And [Acro] doesn't want to use his vote now, don't make him.

And the town motivation is [Acro] didn't have any clue who scum were.

I want to give [Acro] a chance. If he gives a shitty response, then make room for me on the badnwagon.

Acro is a VI. Of course he'll do anti-town things.

He was clearly coming to your defense, not discussing abstract theory.

i know defending him makes us look like scumbuddies. although he may be scum, i'm not. sleepy is in no way clear, i am in no way clear. i would be happy to take one for the town and be the first lynch, but i hope it doesn't come to that.

Something about this quote strikes me as being overly... I don't know, ingratiating to town. It's town pleasing. The last sentence in particular seems unnecessary, as if you went out of your way to show how much of a team player you are. I don't care for it.

Also, I'm surprised to see you backing up Sleepy so soon after this:

gonna take some time to think about what could be going on as far as the sleepy defense thing.

and:

No. Acro is in no way clear.

than I don't get your defense of him

ditto

[Acronach]

Ivan seems to be trying to deflect votes away from sleepy...?

mental note: reread once i get on tomorrow and see if i notice this.

the "ditto" was earlier in the day, i had time to think about it/reread since then. and the other quote didn't really lean either way on the issue, so idk why you're even using it.

SK was referring to me because i was the one in question on the issue.

in response to sub's first quote:


i really can't say anything in regards to what you're saying about the VI thing because you obviouly didn't take the time to read the link i provided and therefore, have no fucking idea what you're talking about. at least skim through half of it, that's all i ask. thank you beck for reading the whole thing and not just from d3 to endgame which is where SK's VI argument comes from.

with that, i'm tired, i'm going to bed. goodnight.

[Klazam]

I was out of town for the weekend, so i didnt have a chance to check this. I'll confirm that Da Koolzzy replaces The Kool.

Also, I'll get a votecount up ASAP. Please bear with me. Thanks.

Here you go

Day One: Vote Count Three

Ivan the Pleasant (2) –YankCane151, Acronach
Acronach (1) – ConfidAnon,
YankCane151 (3)- Greymarble, ICEninja, Beck
Captain Spoon (1)- SleepyKrew
SleepyKrew (2) - Captain Spoon, Subgenius,
Subgenius (1)- Ivan the Pleasant,

Not voting: (3) – rblinker123, Da Koolzzy, Tommy

With 13 alive, it’s 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Friday July 8, 4 PM EST.

MOD- I personally think all hydras need to out who their heads are, it's bad enough to be playing with ore than one, keeping it a secret just makes it worse

Well, I personally would leave that up to the hydrae.

Speaking of hydrae, could you all PLEASE not mispost from the wrong account? >.<

[subgenius]

I didn't read the link, because it's irrelevant to my suspicions of him or you. I don't care why SK thinks you're a VI. I care why he went out of his way to defend you, and I care why you seem to be going out of your way to return the favor.

[Ivan the Pleasant]

This is counter productive. Calling Achro a VI is making him pissed off and preventing rational discussion from taking place. Continue your argument about sleepykrew, but you don't need to insult people. When he's pissed off his play will be altered as evidenced by Captain Picard telling people to fuck off. That causes him to play with two goals in mind. 1) his win condition, and 2) defending his honor or some shit like that. If he has two goals in mind it will be more difficult to determine his alignment.

[subgenius]

I honestly wasn't trying to be insulting. I think the Captain Picard macro in response to me calling his argument WIFOM, which I think it is. Perhaps, calling it useless was a bit harsh, but I stand by my opinion that arguments that follow the form of:

If I was mafia, I would do A.
I did not do A,
Therefor I am not mafia.

Are not especially convincing.

Any insult was accidental, and I apologize.

In any case, he doesn't really seem to mind being called a VI, or at least he's not bothered by SK doing it, and as I've said, I'm really not interested in whether he is or isn't a VI. Judging purely on this game, I'd say he's not, but it's irrelevant. The important thing is the mutual defense between Acro and SK, which I still find quite suspicious.

[SleepyKrew]

@sub
Thoughts on Ivan?

[Tommy]

I appreciate subgenius's campaign. Lots of good digging there.

Acronach, please could you answer the question I asked you in post 193?

[Beck]

This is counter productive. Calling Achro a VI is making him pissed off and preventing rational discussion from taking place. Continue your argument about sleepykrew, but you don't need to insult people. When he's pissed off his play will be altered as evidenced by Captain Picard telling people to fuck off. That causes him to play with two goals in mind. 1) his win condition, and 2) defending his honor or some shit like that. If he has two goals in mind it will be more difficult to determine his alignment.

why did you ignore my question?

[Beck]

Beck seems to me to be trying to sit back and enjoy the show. He has contributed some though, and his lighthearted tone seems way to risky for a mafia or third party. I think he's probably town that needs to buckle down.

It's more of I am trying to not get confused by all these hydras posting from the hydra account and their real account, and this incredibly stupid love triangle of SK, Acro, and Subs

It was also the weekend and my time online was limited.

I have already said the best bet for town today is a Yank lynch.

Ivan said yank did something completely scummy and yet he isn't voting for him, instead he is voting for subs for the fact that he is voting SK instead of Acro.

this makes absolutely no sense to me.

I stand by my statement that Yank is the one deserving of pressure, and the Acro wagon seems like a counter wagon to distract from Yank.

Yank has done nothing useful
Yank is too concerned with how people think of him
Yank has fos'd 2 people (iirc) that have voted or FOS'd him first
plus his comment about me being a jester, instead of being scum is pretty damning as grey pointed out

I sure wish grey would post more, this pisses me off because his 1 and only post is going unnoticed cause he is not here.

[SleepyKrew]

Yank, are you a newb?

[subgenius]

It's more of I am trying to not get confused by all these hydras posting from the hydra account and their real account, and this incredibly stupid love triangle of SK, Acro, and Subs

Could you please elaborate on your thoughts on this "love triangle" and those who inhabit it?

@sub
Thoughts on Ivan?

I'm thinking he's looking pretty directionless at the moment. Of the three people he's voted for (Yank, Acro, and myself), I haven't seen him really dig in with any long term pressure. He'll make a case when he votes, but then leave it alone. For example, I was surprised he didn't have any more questions for me in his last post. If he really thought I was scum, he should be finding weaknesses and pressuring me, but he's not. If he doesn't think I'm scum, he should still be pressuring Acro or Yank right now, but he's not.

Alignment wise, I'd say he's a null read. I haven't seen anything specific that screams town or scum from him. I think his case against me is confusing, but I'm not sure it's scum motivated.

[SleepyKrew]

But he's defending me. By your logic, isn't he my scumbuddy?

[subgenius]

But he's defending me. By your logic, isn't he my scumbuddy?

Yes, he spent a post dissecting my case against you, but my interpretation is that he was motivated more by wanting to make a case against me based on allegedly poor logic than wanting to defend you. Of course, when he questioned the logic of my case, it undermined it's effectiveness, which helps your defense, but I'm not sure that was his primary intent.

This is different than your defense of Acro, where your primary motivation clearly seemed to be diverting attention from Acro.

Unfortunately, it's hard to say much more about it, because Ivan ignored me when I asked him to explain his thoughts on you, which I forgot about when I was explaining my thoughts on him. Now that I remember it, I see that Ivan is starting to form a disturbing trend of ignoring questions (Beck's and mine).

[Beck]

@ sub, I need to throw Ivan in there now also since he kind of joined in the discussion

Right now based on gut reads, I think your posting makes more sense.

Based on experience, I honestly think the odds that one of acro and SK is scum, in all honestly I can't imagine both are but the way they sort of are defending each other makes no sense. SK is defending arco by saying he is a vi, arco is trying to show why SK is calling him a vi.

Arco comes off as the more innocent of the 2 because if somebody was defending a player, and that person was being attacked because of it, I could easily see a naive person defending him back.

Now I'm skeptical by nature, also been screwed over too many times in mafia games. The defense by SK doesn't make sense. I would never defend a person that I thought was a VI, in fact I'd probably try to get the VI lynched (as much as I hate policy lynches, I have sub conciously done this before)

This is why SK is on my list and I'd be fine with his lynch

Ivan, I'm being cautious of, him being a hydra(I think he is anyway) I have a harder time reading cause each head has their own opinion, I don't like him voting you subs because you are making much more sense than SK or Acro is ATM

I'm not ruling anyone out as 100% town right now but subs is clearly not the day 1 lynch.

It's Yank or SK

Yank because Ivan has not really mentioned yank since his earlier fos, and has tried to distance himself from that wagon.

I really hate lining up lynches, I try not to but if yank were to flip scum, Ivan would move to the top of my suspect list

If yank flipped town, well I would really be confused especially about Ivan.

[Acronach]

bleh. kk. 193 (srry for ignoring it for so long)

Oh no, hang on. I'm confused. SleepyKrew is going for Spoon, not you. So what do you mean by 'I'm the ML target'?

this was more of a theory i had about a possable SK/Condid/Ivan scumteam, because SK is under the impression that i'm a VI and in his opinion, i would be an easy target for a lynch. the plan went downhill though because they couldn't find enough evedence to make me look scum. thinking about it, i kind of doubt this because of SK defending me, but still, it could be distancing, ect.

just a theory though.

I didn't read the link, because it's irrelevant to my suspicions of him or you. I don't care why SK thinks you're a VI. I care why he went out of his way to defend you, and I care why you seem to be going out of your way to return the favor.

kk, well any arguments you make about the VI thing are irrevelant. deal with it.

I honestly wasn't trying to be insulting. I think the Captain Picard macro in response to me calling his argument WIFOM, which I think it is. Perhaps, calling it useless was a bit harsh, but I stand by my opinion that arguments that follow the form of:

If I was mafia, I would do A.
I did not do A,
Therefor I am not mafia.

Are not especially convincing.

Any insult was accidental, and I apologize.

In any case, he doesn't really seem to mind being called a VI, or at least he's not bothered by SK doing it, and as I've said, I'm really not interested in whether he is or isn't a VI. Judging purely on this game, I'd say he's not, but it's irrelevant. The important thing is the mutual defense between Acro and SK, which I still find quite suspicious.

not completely useless. if im town and SK is maf, why would he defend me? if SK is town and im maf, why would i defend him? using this logic, it's extremely unlikely that we have opposing alignments. not impossable, but unlikely.

But he's defending me. By your logic, isn't he my scumbuddy?

Yes, he spent a post dissecting my case against you, but my interpretation is that he was motivated more by wanting to make a case against me based on allegedly poor logic than wanting to defend you. Of course, when he questioned the logic of my case, it undermined it's effectiveness, which helps your defense, but I'm not sure that was his primary intent.

This is different than your defense of Acro, where your primary motivation clearly seemed to be diverting attention from Acro.

Unfortunately, it's hard to say much more about it, because Ivan ignored me when I asked him to explain his thoughts on you, which I forgot about when I was explaining my thoughts on him. Now that I remember it, I see that Ivan is starting to form a disturbing trend of ignoring questions (Beck's and mine).

i've noticed that, and with each of his posts i'm increasingly happy with where my vote is.

@SK i swear... if you're maf (again)... and you've been taking me for a ride (again)...

[rblinker123]

Beck: Why you up for a lynch on Yank? Was it Ivan distancing himself from the wagon on yank?
Your suspicion seem to be more towards Ivan than Yank, so why do you want to lynch Yank not Ivan, lynching yank to discover Ivan out seems stupid, its seems like your using yank as bait.

About Sleepy, I didn’t find anything scummy about Sleepy defending Acro over the no-vote in the early stages as I agree it's not necessary if you don’t have a suspicion on anyone. However, when sleepy said 'I wanted to give him (Acro) a chance. If he gives a shitty response, then make room for me on the bandwagon' there's just something about that, after defending him, and wanting to give him a chance, then you would easily jump on a bandwagon if he gave a bad response, why would a bad response about not-voting around rvs, after just defending him over it, cause you to jump on a bandwagon on him. (if you are scum partners) then this seems that you were protecting him then if he couldn’t respond well enough himself to follow on you would distance yourself in case suspicion continued as its better for one to go down than two. A bad response doesn’t seem much to make you jump on a bandwagon, you relationship with him seemed to change to quick as if he was in danger and you had to get away from it as well.

Then about the Acro being a vi stuff. Firstly, it didn’t really think any of the vi stuff was necessary to know as it originated from a previous game mostly. Then with Sleepy defending Acro for being vi, by saying Acro's a vi and defending it, it seems like he's trying to help Acro get past any suspicion by saying it’s just bad play, he’s a vi. Sleepy seems to be deflecting any votes away from Acro through the vi excuse. Sleepy’s using the vi as a shield for Acro.

Atm, out of anyone im leaning towards SK as scum, his defence of acro about the no-vote then leading to him distancing himself then once again he's defending Acro for being a vi, by saying acro's a vi. SK seems to be deflecting any votes away from acro through the vi excuse. Sleepy just seems to be protecting acro a bit too much.

However, then only reason I’m not voting yet is like beck pointed out, its weird there defending each other, if they were to be scum, its throwing themselves out there too much so I’m not sure for a vote just yet.

[Beck]

@ acro

Is this a question directed at subs to answer or is it rhetorical?

"not completely useless. if im town and SK is maf, why would he defend me? if SK is town and im maf, why would i defend him? using this logic, it's extremely unlikely that we have opposing alignments. not impossable, but unlikely. "

I have my own opinion on this but not sure if you were looking for a specific response from him. I'll let him respond regardless.