Mini 1190: Game over

[Thomith]

it was not L-3 it was L-2 i didn't see PBuG's unvote and thought it was L-1. either way i still want to hear from each person why they think he is scummy so we know they are not just jumping on a wagon.

blah nevermind it was L-3. sunday why did you unvote with no explanation Empking why is xvart scum.

[xvart]

Panzer's contradictions and how they are scum motivated

:

Miller Claim(s)

:

Note: This isn't so much a direct contradiction but an inconsistency with a direct relevance to flipped SleepyKrew.

Umm, Did anyone see Sleepy's Miller Mason Recruiter claim? I think the scum are gambiting us here. EK claims miller straight away then Sleepy calim's he's not only a miller but a Mason Recruiter as well? I'd be willing to bet there are not two millers in the game. Or two masons.

Vote:EmpKing

Toro is acting scummy but I really don't think he is part of the scum team.

Panzer says he thinks two things:

1. There aren't two millers in the game;
   
2. There aren't two masons in the game.

He votes the one that only fills one of those criteria. Be degrees of separation, if he thinks both are lying scum why not vote the one that is lying the most?

regardless

I think Empking is lying about his miller claim.

This is partly why I think the claim is bullshit because he has a good reason to think he'll be investigated therefore if he claims miller, then there is no point.

The act of claiming miller is on null-leaning town.

The reason as to why he did it is the concerning part. Toro's logic of "he could be lying" is shitty(as hoppster said) because anyone could be lying. The reason why he claimed was scummy.

The 196 comment is null because the logic applies (thinking he might be investigated because of who he is) whether or not Empking is town or scum, so unless Panzer has additional proof of him being scum at this point his argument is not logically sound.

The basis of the contradiction is he is voting for Empking because he thinks he is lying about the miller claim (114). His justification later (196) I've shown to be logically invalid. Then he says the act of claiming miller is null leaning town (282). If the act of claiming miller itself is null leaning town and his reasoning for voting is logically inconsistent, then he can't possibly think Empking is lying (unless he is covering it up after the fact).

Panzer's opinions on my hoppster case

:

Note: this has already been covered somewhat in my previous post, but for relevance I wanted to include in this post.

@xvart: I didn't notice that most your case is based on things that hoppster has already covered(wall of relevent post), but you do make legitimate points(he's flimsy and seems to be content trying to work from a distance).

Scum motivated behaviors you have exhibited:

1. Changing reads that coincide with wagon momentum;
   
2. Attacking the attacker and not the attack;
   
3. Justifying actions after the fact with information not available and unprovable;
   
4. Knowing someone's town alignment
   ;
   
5. Directing a possible vig kill to a single individual
   ; and,
   
6. Mismatched suspicions and voting (debatable).

I didn't see where he knew someone's alignment
Directing the vig is fine at this point, still saying Toro should vig Jakesh

@Xvart: the others are indicative of scum, but I feel CC and Hiplop are much more scummy at this point in time.

One of the two(Xvart and Hoppster) are most likely scum because of the way they've gone after each other. I'm not compelled by Xvart's arguement. I'm sure one of the one hiplop's in the game(only one person in the game named hiplop, 1 of 1)is scum. It was a clever way to word, "I think hiplop is scum, far more than hopp.

FoS:Xvart

For, blatantly wagoning Sleepy without reason, spouting some serious fail logic against both me and Hoppster, and generally seemimg like scum trying to make big deals out of nothing.

This on top of the fact that both his cases on me and Hoppster are complete and utter crap filled with fail logic and misinterpretations, I'm positive he's Sleepy's buddy.

So, he's compelled by my arguments and agrees with 4/6 of the points I brought up when I'm not attacking him. Then when I shift gears onto him and start building a case on him all of the sudden the arguments he previously agreed on and was compelled by those same arguments become "fail logic" and "complete and utter crap" and "fail logic and misinterpertations."

Using meta as a scumhunting tool

:

@Hiplop:

One game is not a meta.

A) i know, i had to search all your posts,
b) one was a mini-normal, not sure on the name/number, but it was near the end of your search history.

You can't meta someone from 2 years ago, people change

You can't meta someone from 2 games, Sample size.

You can't meta someone from a game that they made 10 posts in, sample size.

Meta in general is garbage.

He's is drawing conclusions mainly from garbage meta, and I happen to know that

Hiplop, myself, and Sleepy were all in a game together that just ended and have the sneaking suspicion that because his "meta" is solely based of that game

, seeing as he doesn't have meta's on anyone else and normally Meta players will meta read everyone. I find drawing suspicions from irrelevent things scum because he trying to push the lynch of a townie based on fallacious statements and generally stir the pot.

I also just recent finished a game with him, He seemed to tunnel a lot harder. He essentially stayed on target the whole game. I didn't notice this but now that everyone is pointing it out, I want back and checked.

I'd be willing to see if this is a meta trait.

I said I'd be interested in seeing if was a metathing. I think he his scum independent of this.

@Vollkan/591: The meta tell is periphery, and did encourage me on to hop on the wagon, but he is scummy regardless of his meta. He has been fairly non-commital and cautious. Hasn't ever truly scumhunted in this game(which I would attribute to a handful of players in the game) and majority of his post are just meaning less one liners or questions clarifying kinda pointless things. If it also happens to be his meta, then that's something for me to keep in mind if i play more games with him in the future, but his actions are scummy on their own

The meta argument was discussed a little bit yesterday but with SleepyKrew's flip it seems even more important. The obvious bolded quotes show how Panzer is using the "meta is crap" argument when it fits for him but uses meta to join SleepyKrew's wagon. The most interesting part is the statements I've highlighted in

red

. He first references one game admonishing the meta tell against him but then uses what I presume is the exact same game (correct me if I am wrong) as a alleged "peripheral" reason for joining the wagon (despite not having said anything about SleepyKrew since the miller discussion in the first few pages of the game).

Plus, the biggest point of interest is

why is someone that is so vocal and vehemently opposed to meta arguments interested in seeing if something is actually a meta trait?

Doesn't seem that someone who thinks meta is garbage is really interested in having a meta trait in his pocket for future games.

Summary

:

Two of the three arguments outlined above revolve around Panzer's behavior with regard to flipped scum SleepyKrew:

1. Weak bus on SleepyKrew while voting Empking;
   
2. Joining the SleepyKrew wagon when he had never expressed suspicion of him in game.

The other one directly correlates to pressure being applied to him.

Both characteristics are scum motivated.

[Empking]

it was not L-3 it was L-2 i didn't see PBuG's unvote and thought it was L-1. either way i still want to hear from each person why they think he is scummy so we know they are not just jumping on a wagon.

blah nevermind it was L-3. sunday why did you unvote with no explanation Empking why is xvart scum.

1. Wagon
2. Wagon wagon
3. Gut
4. I thought 791 was a big load of nothing./

[Thomith]

it seems panzer has contradicted himself alot about the miller claim and meta. VOTE: Panzer for the contradictions.

[TBuG]

Ok, looking at PbugISO, I could definitely see a Emp/PBuG scumteam.

Early game I had a pretty strong town read on you, but now, looking at your ISO, I see otherwise.
I see some mad bussing here.
In #146 you defend Emp's miller claim, then in your next post you go on to accuse Emp. Where's the logic in explaining his actions and then attacking him?
Then in #199 you say you are sure one of Toro/Emp are scum. After Toro claims vig, you never speak of Emp again. Here's the situation as I see it. If you were scum *coughyouarecough*, you would be wanting Toro to be lynched over scumbuddyEmp, obviously. So you vote for Toro. Toro then claims vig and destroys your plan. You are forced to back off Emp than to risk his lynch.
Also, your main point against me is that I'm an active lurker. How is that a good scumtell?
Next up is Emp.

146 was not a defense of his actions. People were talking about whether or not he'd be investigated and I felt like he'd be a potential choice. Never thought the first day would become as ridiculously long as it was.
CC, you completely missed this:

That post was missing my theory that the lack of momentum on Empking or Toro mean they aren't one scum, one town like I thought before. I'm get gradually more suspicious that they're both town. But again, need to reread.

Active lurking is an

excellent

scumtell. Someone who posts a fair bit without very much content (which describes you perfectly) is scummy because they're around, and people notice that they're posting, but they aren't actually helping the town by making any useful contributions. You also had some really strange interactions with SleepyKrew that reek to me of distancing.

Captain Corporal has,

once again

, succeeded in giving us

no

viable scumreads. He only suspects me (who he had a town read of before), then instantly discredits his read and votes me anyway. Then he expects he'll be dead before he can contribute more.

My scumreads are still between CC, xvart, TheFool, and Panzer; I would be surprised if the last two scum (assuming that there's three, I could be wrong) weren't between the four of them. xvart's 826 actually raises a lot of credible points against Panzer.

xvart, if Panzer is scum, who do you see as a potential scumbuddy(/ies)?

[Thomith]

CC i think you fail to relise PBuG wasn't the only person to defend Emps miller claim, PBuG me and i am fairly certain afew others were saying the miller claim was not scummy so you calling PBuG ONLY out for that i find slightly scummy.

so far my suspects are consistant of: CC, The Fool and Panzer/xvart.

I think one of the scum lies in panzer or xvart but i am unsure which, i would be suprised if both were town or both were scum.

[Thomith]

also i would like to hear more from: panzer and hoppster as i feel that they have slipped under the radar a little.
oh and sunday:

I like Panzer's case on xvart a lot.

VOTE: xvart

liking is different than agreeing. i can like a case on someone but not necisseraly agree with it.

the vote seems like sheeping, do YOU have any scumtells on xvart yourself?

Sunday i don't know if you missed this or are ignoring it but please answer the question here.

Answer please.

[xvart]

xvart, if Panzer is scum, who do you see as a potential scumbuddy(/ies)?

Well, I would probably still consider hoppster but Panzerjager's post that originally made me shift gears pretty much clears hoppster of being scum since Panzer would have been setting up himself being more town and me being more scum based off of a hoppster town flip, and I don't see the benefit of scum Panzer sublty planting that seed if he knew hoppster was going to flip scum. Otherwise, independent of Panzer's flip I see CC being scum, especially considering his absence and "catch up posts" when he has loads of time. His PBuG/Empking connection comment is especially out of the blue with no real context or explanation. This definitely feels like active lurking under the guise of "he look I've got scumpair connections so I'm scum hunting." He makes no commentary at all about SleepyKrew's flip and the implications on other players.

What is especially concerning/interesting is he says in his original post upon return that he will have relevant quotes and stuff for the people he thinks is scum and not town, but it appears he is going through posting about players regardless of reading all players first.

I'd like to go back through and take a closer look at people sitting on the fence about hoppster and I, because when Panzer flips scum I think the other buddy/ies might have exhibited similar behavior to Panzer sitting the fence or even saying "one of the two is scum". A situation like that, if ever went to fruition, would have been gold for scum because it would have caused two mislynches with all the blame falling on me.

[Sundy]

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile... I am in a new city right now and it's the 4th of July. :excuses:

Nothing really seems to have changed
After a bit of vacillation, I am back to thinking Panzer is a worthy lynch candidate
Less inclined now to vote Xvart

Still very pleased with a vote on Captain "why is active lurking a scum tell" Corporal

[Sundy]

Oh also I've been thinking it's to our benefit to kill all the Mafia as quickly as possible (duh) since it'd be a shame for a SK to be able to exercise 1 kill and then restrain himself for the rest of the game under cover of a fake RC. Yes Sunday I'm talking to you. I don't think this is necessarily the case and there's nothing to be done about it right now, but if Mafia is dead and the game isn't over yet, well then...

[Hoppster]

Back from V/LA.

People who ignored me when I was screaming SleepyKrew was scum in big letters - why?

(You know who you are.)

Ohai no answers.

Hmmmmmmm.

One more chance, ppz.

When I'm dead, take my scumreads into account.

Uh what.

Town

Xvart - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting.
PBuG - Also, good scumhunting. Getting good vibes from you.
Empking - Weak town read. Just gut for now.

Null

Thomith - I actually need to ISO you, which I haven't done before. Until then you remain null.
Sunday - More posting would be nice.
Hoppster - Again, I would like to ISO you. Null for the moment.
TheFool - Once more, need to ISO.
Panzerjager - I'm a little concerned about you, but that probably just because you were voting me.

Scum

Sundy - You seem to be coasting along nicely without making yourself too obvious. I'll ISO you as well, and put up a better read on you.

Firstly, Xvart.

Ok, looking at PbugISO

Hmm, Emp actually looks pretty town. Although he only mentions PBuG once. Not sure what to think of that.

Sundy now

Hmmmmmmmm.

4 people you said you wanted to ISO.

You ISO'd just one of them, and even then that was the fourth person you ISO'd.

VOTE: CC


Less inclined to believe xvart is scum (well, Mafia at least) with SK's Mafia flip. Were I SK-scum (and buddies with xvart-scum), I would definitely be voting with Hoppster-town's awesome logic rather than xvart-scum's terrible logic.

[Sundy]

Back from V/LA.

People who ignored me when I was screaming SleepyKrew was scum in big letters - why?

(You know who you are.)

Ohai no answers.

Hmmmmmmm.

One more chance, ppz.

Am I one of the people you're talking about?

Because I thought about it, and pretty much decided I wasn't, so...

[Hoppster]

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

[Sundy]

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

Sunday, Volkan, Thomith, and TheFool?

[Sundy]

EBWOP:

Well, not Volkan, let's not speak ill of the dead.

[TBuG]

Sundy. Dude. You ignored it until I came back and supported it. Not trying to infer that I influenced your read again but srsly.

[Sundy]

Sundy. Dude. You ignored it until I came back and supported it. Not trying to infer that I influenced your read again but srsly.

Yeah but I don't think I need to answer Hoppster's question since I answered it way back when I switched my vote. I even addressed his big font and everything.

whatev!

[PJ.]

This is gonna be a short post, sorry guys been busy with work and holiday.

CC is scum and so is Xvart.

CC has been active lurking and spouting all sorts of scummy stuff that all of us have taken turns pointing out

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

also, on meta, It's garbage because people don't use it correctly. Bad players like hiplop come in and try to base a case on meta on bad information(which i already talked about). If you base it correctly(like vollkan did) it can be a valuable tool, but most meta examinations are crap.

I'll lynch CC or Xvart but I'm keeping my vote on him

also, Thomith what are you doing dude?

[TheFool]

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

His point that you focus on Emp's claim over SK's more dubious claim is interesting. Concerning 282, what made you think Empking is scum trying to throw off an investigation and not a miller following the often-quoted game theory that optimal miller play is to claim right away?

also, on meta, It's garbage because people don't use it correctly. Bad players like hiplop come in and try to base a case on meta on bad information(which i already talked about). If you base it correctly(like vollkan did) it can be a valuable tool, but most meta examinations are crap.

You commented in 447 that "You can't meta someone from 2 games". Vollkan only used one. Could you explain how Vollkan's meta case is better than hiplop's, which you primarily decried for sample size reasons?

You also haven't commented much on his case against your shifting stance on xvart/Hoppster, as far as I can tell.

Also:

My D-2 choice(emp cause I still don't like the claim) has 0 votes.

I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying.

What changed your mind?

VOTE: Panzerjager

[Twistedspoon]

Votecount2.4

Did you know?: The chicken is the T-Rex's closest living relative

Captain corporal(3) - Sundy, PBuG, Hoppster
Xvart(2) - Panzer, Empking
Panzerjager(3) - Xvart, Thomith, TheFool
PBuG(1): Captain corporal

Not Voting (1): Sunday

With 10 Alive it takes 6 to lynch, 5 to no lynch.
The deadline is 13th July GMT 08:00

[/size]

[Thomith]

Sundy: Who do you think I am talking to (ie. who do you think is guilty of ignoring me)?

Sunday, Volkan, Thomith, and TheFool?

he means those who thought SK was town despite him screaming about it.

[PJ.]

Xvart cases are ridiculously scummy, I feel EXACTLY like Hoppster did when he was being attacked by Xvart. He says I've contradicted myself, when the posts he is using to say I contradicted myself are the very posts I'm explaining myself. Look at my post 282. I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying. Seriously,

Read the entire posts

These just reaks of chainsaw defense and flailing.

1. His point that you focus on Emp's claim over SK's more dubious claim is interesting. Concerning 282, what made you think Empking is scum trying to throw off an investigation and not a miller following the often-quoted game theory that optimal miller play is to claim right away?

also, on meta, It's garbage because people don't use it correctly. Bad players like hiplop come in and try to base a case on meta on bad information(which i already talked about). If you base it correctly(like vollkan did) it can be a valuable tool, but most meta examinations are crap.

2. You commented in 447 that "You can't meta someone from 2 games". Vollkan only used one. Could you explain how Vollkan's meta case is better than hiplop's, which you primarily decried for sample size reasons?

You also haven't commented much on his case against your shifting stance on xvart/Hoppster, as far as I can tell.

Also:

My D-2 choice(emp cause I still don't like the claim) has 0 votes.

I literally tell everyone why I found(don't anymore) emp to be lying.

3. What changed your mind?

VOTE: Panzerjager

1. Because Hoppster said it was a joke and I believe him, and I already said why he would try to throw of an investigation

2. I decried it for time reasons and other reasons as well. It was numorous reasons. Vollkann at least at a relevent sample. Small sample size but both his case and mine were based on other things beside Meta. I already answered his question on this(the same questions that xvart is ignoring.

3. There just can't be that many scum and he has been playing pretty town beside that. I guess saying I don't find it scummy was the wrong words just everything else makes it not as bad as Xvart or CC

[TBuG]

1. His point that you focus on Emp's claim over SK's more dubious claim is interesting. Concerning 282, what made you think Empking is scum trying to throw off an investigation and not a miller following the often-quoted game theory that optimal miller play is to claim right away?

1. Because Hoppster said it was a joke and I believe him, and I already said why he would try to throw of an investigation

No, try again. In that post you had obviously thought SleepyKrew was making an actual claim.

[PJ.]

And what about me do you like?
CC, the reason the game is going is because Emp claimed Miller.
PEDIT: Of course scum can claim Miller.
BTW, I'm a Miller Mason Recruiter.

@Hoppster, This post doesn't sound like a joke to me but I'm really bad at that. And honestly, no reason as to why empking over sleepy. I think they're both scum.

And yes I still feel Empking is gambiting scum.

Gonna reread to try to remember what I was thinking cause I'm going to get myself lynched if I keep saying shit willy nilly

[PJ.]

That was me agreeing with PBuG for the record